Israel

[The Ghost of Bondo]

I know a few other people  have voiced opinions about it but I think this is a very important issue.

The number one reason for our middle eastern policy is Israel.  If it wasn't there, we would have much less interest in the area and the area would be much more peaceful.

To start, I want to point out that, my belief that Israel should not exist as a nation or at least not there is in no way anti-Jewish, in fact I have a great respect for the religion, especially reform Judaism (differing mostly on their support of zionism when it was an issue).  First off, Israel is largely a secular nation.  Secondly, many jews did not support the creation of Israel.  The push to do so was called zionism.  More conservative jewish groups though the idea of creating the Israeli state to be blasphemous.  They believe that the messiah will come and take them back to their homeland.  To do so outside of the messiah is to not follow god's command.

If you take it outside the religious context for their right to that area.  The land where Israel is, hasn't been controlled by the Jews since before the common era, and in 70 C.E when the Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem, the diaspora begin and Jewish people were scattered.  To say they have a right to that land would be like saying Native Americans have the right to the US.  Unless we are willing to give this land back to them, we have no right to use that reasoning to give land to the formation of Israel.

I disagree in the end because of there being no legitamite reasons to place Israel there, and because of the resulting chaos that has come from it.  What Israel has done in their 50+ years makes it more reason not to support them.  With the help of US aid, especially militarily, they have a dominant force to all the countries of the area and have used it on many occasions in wars with the Arab countries around them.  Sure, the Arab countries have made a habit of attacking, but they have reason to be irritated after the attrocities commited by the Israeli armies.  On nearly a daily basis right now, various Palistinians are killed by Israeli forces.  Now they claim many are terrorists, but last time I checked, the US supported the rights to trial, not the reckless slaughter of people who are suspected.  This is a deadly game of McCarthism being played, with many innocents being involved as well.  We also should not ignore that the Israeli occupation and settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are against UN resolutions.

The US, if it hopes to have any dignity in dealings with Arab countries needs to for once stand up to Israel by condemning their human rights and UN resolution violations, by stopping improportionate aid, especially military aid to Israel (they are the top recipient of US foreign aid).  It is a sickening double standard that gives great credibility to the Muslim radicals that the US involvement isn't morally based, but rather religious.

[0 Kilz:M:]

uh, Israel is basically ours..why would we stand out against it? Don't you get it? It's all a game of RISK....get your pawns in place and let the battles begin. Nothing any of you say or do amounts to shit, the fact is the US is a dominant force, and we use that to our advantage as any strong country should. We would'nt have shit if we acted like pussies...so just deal with the fact we Own the world...and be proud!

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Oh, and here I thought the US was looking to increase peace and decrease terrorism, not create more war and stir up more terrorism.

The US has been wrong, a lot, in the past.  It is better to eat crow and stop being wrong than to continue being wrong just to save face.

[[V] Silverblade]

uh, Israel is basically ours..why would we stand out against it? Don't you get it? It's all a game of RISK....get your pawns in place and let the battles begin. Nothing any of you say or do amounts to shit, the fact is the US is a dominant force, and we use that to our advantage as any strong country should. We would'nt have shit if we acted like pussies...so just deal with the fact we Own the world...and be proud!

its statements like these what makes other people hate americans...

sure kilzo, go ahead and drop bombs wherever u please... i just wish u would experience one day what its like to lose ur family bc some dumbfuck president decided to drop bombs on ur city bc his country is going broke.

sad thing is, there aint enough 747s around to make u retardos understand...

[kami]

Kilzo, here I thought you were out trying to help the world with your 'benevolent' power, you're saying you're out to expand and hold up an empire, you don't see where the hate comes from?

[tasty]

I don't think we should cut all aid to Isreal but I think we should greatly decrease our aid to them. If we did, the decrease in their power would cause them to finally make some concessions to the Palestinians and make a peace settlement. It's a little farfetched to suggest the complete destruction of Isreal, but it's quite clear that the Jews are getting a way better deal than the Moslems. Israel doesn't really have any allies at all other than us, so we pretty much control the key to this entire ordeal. Isrealis complain about suicide bombers, but what do you think its like living every day of your life under the barrels of well-funded Israeli guns? The current administration has considered it a lost cause (not that they care anyway) and have completely withdrawn from the peace process.

Since everyone criticized Kilzo's post, I thought I'd dissect/paraphrase it for fun:

uh, Israel is basically ours.

=The US is an imperialist nation and I'm willing to admit it.

It's all a game of RISK....get your pawns in place and let the battles begin. Nothing any of you say or do amounts to shit

=Morality has no place in foreign policy, the only thing that should matter are people that live in the United States

the fact is the US is a dominant force, and we use that to our advantage as any strong country should

=I wish every country behaved as selfishly and militaristically as the US, so millions of people could die in the massive resulting world wars

We would'nt have shit if we acted like pussies

=the power the United States has today was built on the backs of slaves, immigrants, women, poor, and colonies, and we will lose all our wealth if we don't continue to oppress people to our own economic gains

so just deal with the fact we Own the world...and be proud!

=so forget all reason and wave your cowboy hats and American flags in the air to celebrate our unabated selfishness!

Did I get that right?

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Tasty, while I think Isreal shouldn't have been created, hindsight is 20/20.  Now that it is there I think we have to find a way to get their being there to work, and that is like you said, not protecting their hostile ways, rather let them realize that peace is a two way street, and as long as they play the game, the other side can't be expected to.

Hmm, this sounds like good advice for the Bush Administration to take on the war with terrorism.

[jn.loudnotes]

The fact is, that after World War Two, there were thousands of people who had not only had had 6 million of their brethren slaughtered, but were left homeless.  To say that Israel should not have been created is to say that the Jews of Europe did not deserve a place to live.  It was the responsibility of the world, having stopped the Holocaust - yet devasted the area - to provide for a place for the Jews to live.  (and who can really fault any Jew who felt uncomfortable with returning to their homelands)

The timing of the creation of the Israeli state was not then entirely incidental.  However, the method of its creation, the location, and the resulting militarism was the wrong approach.  Judaism needed a place to exist and its people a place to live, but unfortunately that creation displaced others.

However, there really is enough land area for Palestinians and Jews to occupy the same territory.  Thereoretically, if both sides could lay down arms, they could govern the area together - a coalition of peace.  Frankly, the only way that would ever work is with a few generations of intermediary control - that's where the UN and the US would be important.  Otherwise, no one will ever get past the fact that two different peoples lay valid claims to the same land.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Loud, a huge amount of Jews came to the US, in fact, many of the Jews who went to Isreal came not from Europe, but from the US.  The Jewish "homeland" got its political support on account of the Holocaust, but it certainly wasn't necessary because of it.  Why is the Middle East any better place to collect Jewish people than the US?  In the US there would be much less conflict.  Shit, the US government owns many times the land area that Israel currently occupies in National Parks, Forests, and other such areas that they could easily have used to create a Jewish state without displacing anyone.

The reason I am against the creation of Israel (and when I say that I explicitly mean in its current location) is that there were plenty of other options for location of Jews that wouldn't have caused such conflict.

[jn.loudnotes]

Why is the Middle East any better place to collect Jewish people than the US?

Because that's their ancestral homeland.  Jewish heritage is all about one day returning to the "Promised Land"  Just because, as you mentioned earlier, some Jews are against a return without the aid of the Messiah, doesn't mean that's not the location they desire.  Furthermore, others would view the reclamation of their homeland by any means as brought on by messianic intervention.

Why do you think people consider the Trail of Tears to have been so terrible?  It's not just the loss of life.  Cherokee Indians were forcibly removed from their ancestral homeland (which was claimed by US settlers) to move to Oklahoma.  What made Oklahoma a suitable place?  

"Shit, the US government own[ed] many times the land area that [Cherokees had] occupie[d] in National Parks, Forests, and other such areas [Oklahoma] that they used to create a [Cherokee nation] without displacing anyone."

Sound familiar?  Just because no one else claims the land and it's there doesn't make it a suitable place to live.  The fact is, the Jews had an outstanding claim to Israel - although they shouldn't have displaced Palestinians to live there - they both had fair claim.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Loud, the problem with your Cherokee argument (I'm like 1/128th Cherokee) is that I'm not giving Israel a right to live in the Middle East just because they did 2000 years ago.  What makes you think I'd give the right to the Cherokee to their land that was taken 200 years ago.

It is unfortunate and shouldn't have been taken (rather it would be preferable to live along side them rather than move them) but they don't have claim to go back to where they were, boot out all those that currently live there, all because they want their old homeland.  Reservations are akin to creating a jewish state but for native americans...the only difference is lack of strong political power (so more like the Palistinian state).  I'm all for letting native americans getting land and creating little autonomous regions.  Lord knows the US has way too much publicly controlled land that isn't well maintained.  The native americans are very good at protecting the environment so we need not worry about environmental degredation like we may if a corporation was given the land.