Pledge of Allegiance

[The Ghost of Bondo]

*Waits to be told why he is so clearly stupid for saying Christians don't actually know there is a God but rather have faith*

Now what I'm about to say might seem offensive but it really isn't.  All faith is a product of ignorance.  That is my thesis about religion that I'd use for a Doctoral dissertation if I was ever crazy enough to continue school after my Bachelors' (Isn't that sexist?  What with more woman than men graduating from college?).

Anyway, here is how the theory goes.  From the most ancient religions.  Religion tended to incorperate explainations for natural phenomenon that couldn't be explained.  Most prominant is the many native oral religions such as Aztec or Navajo or what not.  They tend to be polytheistic/animistic having gods/spirits of rain, fire, sun, death, etc.  Every event in life had a god that controlled that event and by believing in the god...having faith, and showing it through worship/sacrifice, the gods would help them.

Now, most of us look back at the Greek or Aztec myths as simply stories, most certainly they aren't historicly accurate.  Try telling a Christian that the stories of the bible are myths, exagerrated stories meant to teach.  They are likely to get up in arms in defense of their religion.  They would claim that the Bible is an accurate historical account.  That creation happened precisesly that way, that all the stories are absolutely true, that God exists and Jesus died and because of that they shall have eternal life.  But none of these things are proven to be any more accurate than that of the Aztec or Greek myths.  They don't know that those things happened, and that God does exist, not knowing is the same as being ignorant to.  And not knowing is what causes one to have and need faith.

Take for example gravity.  We know that on earth there is gravity.  If we jump, we know we will go up and then go down.  We know this for sure so we don't have faith that it will.  To use a mathematical example of a function box.  If you know the equation in the box...when you put a number in you know what will come out because math is absolute.  However if you don't know the equation in the box, you are ignorant of it, you don't know what will come out.  You can have faith that the equation is a certain way and that a certain result will come out, and it could indeed come out, but you don't know that it will.

When we have knowledge and thus are not ignorant, we have no need for faith.  But when we are ignorant, when we don't have knowldege, we have faith.  The belief of god is faith, most elements of religion are faith.

With that said, it is universal that we can not know everything.  As such, faith will always play a part and is an essential part of life.  My concern is when people remain ignorant and have faith when a contradictory fact exists.  Faith should never be so strong that it resists being replaced by knowledge.  Nor should one faith be deemed dominant to another faith.

[cookie]

All faith is a product of ignorance.  

Couldn't disagree with you more. Can't you have faith in a subject you're knowledgable about? hmmm?

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Couldn't disagree with you more. Can't you have faith in a subject you're knowledgable about? hmmm?

Feel free to provide an example :p

But it also I suppose depends on your definition of faith.  I don't think one has real faith if they do know something.  In essance my definition of faith is the second in my shitty dictionary..."Belief not based on logical proof or material evidence"  That is the definition I am going on.  For the record the definition of know according to my dictionary is To believe to be true with absolute certainty.  Now there is a bit of problem with knowledge being based on belief of something being certain, but I think the distinction between belief of certainty and faith as it was described above is enough to be clearly seen.

[(See below)]

Name = {Precious Roy thinking he's a smart college student even though he's not, just cause he's sleeping at Harvard tonight... with a girl!  A girl who won't sleep with him, that bitch!}

Baz amuses me.  Loudnotes is always right.  I like to generalize, just like the aforementioned Baz.

[kami]

Bondo, I think you could fit what you just wrote in on everything religious but not on the definition of faith, like if I have faith in someone, that's a whole nother thing. (I'd elaborate if my eyes weren't so tired). Aside from that, I agree with you.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Well kami, I think what perhaps you are suggesting is something like me having faith that the Avs will win the Stanely Cup...or something similar.  If I'm wrong please straighten me out when you wake up.  Anyway I have faith in the Avs to win the Stanely Cup because they could win but I also know that it is possible that they wouldn't.  Since I don't know the outcome positively, I have faith in the outcome...so my point stands.  But once again this may not be what you were talking about.  I think my theory on faith works for both religious and general usages of faith.  Perhaps I should say that I've basically just created a definition of faith in a way.

[Jeb]

very nicely put loud,
Baz came into the GHR game i was playing and started to criticize me. Mainly saying that I'm a atheist because i wasn't raised right... well this is my story.
I was baptized catholic, went to catholic school for 15-16 years (1 hour of religion class every day). I went  to a catholic prep school in seattle, did countless hours of religious service in the name of the church.
Junior year of highchool i was writing a paper for my religion class... this paper made me question the stories in the bible for the first time. After that i began thinking about religion and the counterpoints to religion. Senior year i finally came to the realization that i wasn't going to buy into it. I guess i didn't need religion to wipe my ass anymore.

Baz, how can you explain the other religions around the world? would you think a hindu or muslim in the same light as a atheist like me?

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Yeah, I also was raised Christian being baptized, going to sunday school every week from about 3 years old until when I was confirmed in 10th grade.  I remained strongly believing in god until about a year ago...but through experience I just saw that the Bible was woefully inadequate as something to base one's life on.  I should say that the whole thing about Christianity considering homosexuality a sin was the final straw as it were.

Now I'm taking Comparative Religions and I'm getting a good grasp on what all the major world religions teach and value.  Through this I saw that Buddhism made the most sense.  It explained why there is suffereing (an explainating that makes a heck of a lot more sense than Christianity's Adam and Eve's original sin so now we must pass the test thing).

If Baz finds Christianity to be his thing, more power to him, but if he thinks he is somehow more righteous or pure for it...he needs to get that stick out of his ass.

[jn.loudnotes]

Personally I like my upbringing the best.  My mother and father are Jewish and Christian, respectively.  But neither of my parents is evangelical, and they left the choice up to me.  Thus I've always had an open mind toward anything theological.  

Really, it would be great if everyone were raised that way. . .there wouldn't be so many absolutes, and people would be happier in general.  So, if you are atheist - those who believe are not "wrong" misguided, ignorant, or otherwise waylaid.  And if you are devout, those who feel differently are not heathen savages.  

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Well, I don't know if you were referring to what I said when you said ignorant there Loud, but my usage of ignorant wasn't to say they are stupid, just that they don't know positively.  I think I made it clear that faith is not a bad thing.

Anyway, my plan for teaching my children about religion is to teach them much like a Comparative Religions class.  I'll let them learn all of the religions and urge them to discover their own spirituality and also remind them that that spirituality is dynamic.  Just because you are one way as a kid doesn't mean you need to keep that belief until you die.

[kami]

I was raised thinking critically about most things I think, I was never baptised since my father is pretty much a an atheist (or a secularised christian) and my mother is a shinto buddhist being Japanese and all.

I wouldn't talk about spirituality with my kids because I'm pretty convinced that the only spirit a human has comes from specific synaptic connections in the brain, and I would definately not talk about religion since I think most of it is summoned out of various peoples asses.

[tasty]

{Precious Roy thinking he's a smart college student even though he's not, just cause he's sleeping at Harvard tonight... }

I'm jealous... where are you going to school?