patriot act II

[tasty]

The Bush administration is proposing changes (not the good kind of changes) to what I consider to be maybe the most disgusting piece of legislation ever passed, the USA Patriot Act. Odd that they are releasing their intent to pursue such a policy at the same time they raise the "Terrorist Alert" to HIGH, isn't it?

They discussed this abomination on Bill Moyers' show last night, and after reading the transcripts I am truly disgusted. I was disgusted by the complete disregard for civil liberties in the 1st patriot act, but this new act sets dangerous new precedents that bring shame to the US. Among the powers Ashcroft hopes to gain through this bill:

1. Ashcroft will have unchecked power to deport any foreigner, including lawful permenant aliens.
2. The government will be able to make secret arrests (never before done in the history of the United States) and keep these arrests secret indefinetely or until an indictment is made.
3. The government would have the power to bypass courts and grand juries in order to conduct surveillance without a judge's permission.

Some of the other provisions in the bill include powers the intelligence community used to have, but were taken away because the powers were abused. Do you think that with these other new, even more powerful abilities bestowed upon them that abuses wouldn't occur?

to learn more about this:
Bill Moyer's Transcript
the full proposed bill

Let me know how you feel about the Patriot Act and possible expansion to it.

[Mr. Lothario]

     But, but, but, there are so many great reasons to create an American SS. Oh, wait, no there aren't. Tasty, I was disgusted by the powers invested in the Attorney General following the WTC attack, and they keep increasing. These powers will serve no good purpose. The whole situation smacks of a carefully-orchestrated mind-fuck of the populace, who are credulous and uneducated and are therefore easy to manipulate using the media. "Oo! Oo! Amber alert! Danger, danger Will Robinson! We the rulers need more power to keep you, our helpless flock, safe from the eeeeeeeeevil foreigners. So give them to us." And whadda ya know, it works.

     I have my suspicions that the Bush regime is trying to set itself up as the permanent ruling party. Admittedly, that's slightly farfetched, but the way things are looking, it seems more than slightly possible to pull off.

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Tasty nobody replied this cuz it was over thier head but these acts are stupid. Anyway on a different note , if ......no now its more of a WHEN we go to war Im gonna be rioting in the streets baby we already are working up our cheers, re-activating them from the Vietnam era:

1 2 3 4 STOP BUSH'S BLOODY WAR

HEY HEY USA HOW MANY KIDS WE GONNA KILL TODAY
any other ones?

[The Ghost of Bondo]

If you're happy to be moving to Canada clap your hands
*clap* *clap*
If you're happy to be moving to Canada clap your hands
*clap* *clap*
If you're happy to be moving to Canada and you really want to show it
If you're happy to be moving to Canada clap your hands
*clap* *clap*

[|MP|Buccaneer]

The only possible good that can come out of this Domestic Security Enhancement Act is that they could make Zaitsev disappear when he "riots".

I just love people that threaten violence in the name of peace, don't you?  

Yes, after reading the whole PDF, it is quite scarry.  I was hopeful that the Patriot Act would die a withering death in the next few months.  Guess that was a pipe dream.  

Oh, and for the poor Ghost of Bondo, hasn't Canada already pretty much backed the going to war with Iraq?  And don't they have less liberty then the US (before these acts)?  

If you are a dumbass and you know it clap your hands:

[kami]

*clap clap* oh wait, did I clap at the wrong moment...?

And yes, it is indeed scary (and sad) that a country based on liberty is heading in this direction...

[Ghost of Bondo]

Oh, and for the poor Ghost of Bondo, hasn't Canada already pretty much backed the going to war with Iraq?  And don't they have less liberty then the US (before these acts)?  

If you are a dumbass and you know it clap your hands:

In what ways that matter does Canada have less liberty than that US?

Oh, and was the dumbass comment really necessary, it just makes you look like a prick and invalidates any point that you had (although I didn't really see one).

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Did your post about Canada have any point at all?  Didn't think so.  In fact, I think that's considered SPAM.

And Canada has many less liberties in ways that matter to me.  And since I've lived in both places, I would be qualified to express my opinion on it.  

And as far as you are concerned, I am a prick.  Eat me.

[EUR_Zaitsev]

BUCC thanks my friend for proving my point. You did exactly as I thought you would. WHY PROVER PEACE WITH VIOLENCE. Now take my rioting and upscale that to USA in IRAQ WE WANT PEACE SO WE ARE GOING TO ATTACK THEM. hmmmmmmmmmm you yourself said thats stupid!

[kami]

I'm pretty sure of that Canada does not have laws that allow the police to secretly arrest people or to have surveillance on random people without a judge's consent.

What is people's problems with Canada anyway? Seems like a great country to me, although maybe a bit cold.

[Mr.Mellow]

Yeah, Canada does look like a sweet country. The one thing stopping me from moving up there is that extra dollar or two if I want to buy a magazine. Crazy Canadian taxes.

[Ghost of Bondo]

Well, if you are bringing money with you the magazines don't actually cost any more.  At the moment you basically get $3 Canadian to every $2 US.  So your $5 mag may be $7 there, but you are actually paying less than $5 American.  Of course if you are working in Canada then you are being paid Canadian and it will be a bit steeper.  But many things like real estate and health care are much cheaper so in the long run the cost of living is less.

[abe]

canada pwns everyone
i actually moved (read fled) up hear when numbnuts bush got elected so i have sympathy for bondo. as far as the liberty thing goes, canada pretty much has the same anti-terror laws as the US (maybe this has changed) as the US and algerians are getting deported all the time because they are suspected terrorists. if the rcmp has theyre doubts about you there are ways for them to get you, just like the fbi. i don't know what you mean by "less liberty" in canada bucc, but thats bs. ok, taxes are higher, but public health care and education are infinitely better here, despite all the problems. if anything canadians probably have more liberty since you can smoke pot here w/o going away for 2 to 5. btw, mr. mellow, as bondo said, the exchange rate favors you (1$ cdn= 0.60$ US) so everything is cheaper here even i the prices are higher.
kami, many americans think canadians live in igloos, so i wouldnt worry about them having a problem with it. ive actually had ppl ask me if we have indoor plumbing and electricity here.....

[kami]

Haha abe, they seriously asked you if you had indoor plumbing and electricity?

[|MP|Buccaneer]

BUCC thanks my friend for proving my point. You did exactly as I thought you would. WHY PROVER PEACE WITH VIOLENCE. Now take my rioting and upscale that to USA in IRAQ WE WANT PEACE SO WE ARE GOING TO ATTACK THEM. hmmmmmmmmmm you yourself said thats stupid!

Zaitsev, way to not actually read any of my posts!!!  Or the news.  The US government doesn't want PEACE most of all, it wants SECURITY.  Wake up already!  There are valid reasons for violence and war.  I'm not the one preaching for peace at any price.  Anyone that likes war is an asshole.  Anyone that craves peace at any price is just as much of an asshole.  Living at one extreeme or the other is just stupid.

Abe, Kami, Canada is a very nice country actually.  I've lived there and like it.  It does have less liberties then the US though.  Read the laws sometimes.  And that has nothing to do with health care or taxes.  

Oh, and please learn that most laws in the USA are state and local, not national.  Bondo never seemed to understand it.  But in Ann Arbor Michigan, it's only a $25 fine for getting caught with pot.  Not 2-5 years.  (personal consumption, not distribution).  Ann Arbor (where I got my masters) is about as liberal as you will find.  

Now, until this SS like act passes Congress, we still have more liberties.  That's why I don't think this bill will actually pass.  This country was founded by fighting against the exact bullshit that is in DSEA.  Bondo and some others made fun of the fact that Americans would ever need to rise up against their own government.  But it is this sort of bullshit that caused it 227 years ago.  All they have to do is keep going down that road, and ignoring the public.  

One last thought.  All the people that were against the second ammendment and those liberties sure seem to not like any of their other liberties getting trampled.  Maybe you'll start to think about how these things do go together.  Like I said before.  I stand for the liberties this country was built upon.  All of them.  All the founding principles, with more enlightenment.  Life, Liberty and the persuit of happiness is still as important today as ever.

[Ghost of Bondo]

I never said pot would get you 2-5 years...that was abe...or were you just throwing my name in there to needlessly insult me?  And just because different states have different laws doesn't mean you can't make generalizations such as pot being punished a certain amount or probably what you were referring to before in my comment that schools are paid for locally and so poor areas have poor schools and rich areas have good schools.  Sure, it doesn't specifically work for every area but it is a general truth about the US.

As for arguing that we wouldn't need to fight for liberties or what not.  I never said that we wouldn't have the need to, I said that owning a few guns wouldn't enable you to fight for liberties because the goverment controls the army and serious weaponry.  Having a handgun at your house won't secure your safety or your liberty any better than not having a gun.

[kami]

The American gun policies as I see it is that having a gun at home makes you safe, what kind of bullshit is that anyway?

[Mr. Lothario]

     Guns do not win a revolution, but they make it a damn sight easier to do so. Besides which, if there was an out-and-out revolution, I like to think that many soldiers would desert and join the revolutionaries. There would still be fighting and bloodshed, but it would not be an army against the Joneses. It would be an undermanned army against an undermanned army. Of course the logistics of war, politics, psychology make it more complicated than that, so don't bother saying so. My point is, we're not talking about American troops marching into Nazi Germany, steely-eyed and full of resolve to destroy a great evil. We're talking about American troops attacking their own towns and families, and there's little else that destroys morale as effectively.

     I was reading about the first "Patriot" Act legislation, and Sen. Dianne Feinstein was quoted as saying that she recieved tens of thousands of letters from her constituents, all of which were against the legislation, and "if I were to vote right now, based on this feedback, I would have no choice but to vote against the measure." But she voted for it. Newsflash: elected representatives are not representing the people who voted them into office any more. Remember "no taxation without representation"?

[tasty]

I'd be interested to see a side-by-side civil liberties comparison between the two countries. I don't really know anything about Canada's system, but it seems that so far no one for either side has addressed in what ways Canada does or doesn't have more liberty. So address it, because I want to know. I also fail to see how this affects the 2nd amendment, since its basically the only amendment in the bill of rights that the Bush administration hasn't fucked with.

[tasty]

I'd be interested to see a side-by-side civil liberties comparison between the two countries. I don't really know anything about Canada's system, but it seems that so far no one for either side has addressed in what ways Canada does or doesn't have more liberty. So address it, because I want to know. I also fail to see how this affects the 2nd amendment, since its basically the only amendment in the bill of rights that the Bush administration hasn't fucked with.