War on Iraq: Bush is gettin pwned

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Mono I agree with you for the most part Can anybody here name me a country we have been mad at since the cold war that we didnt dig our own grave;

Vietnam- Lets have democratic elections, wait hes gonna win? Shit lets put in a dictator
Grenada- 8 American Civi's placed there now we better attack
Gulf War- Are we taking friendly fire or are those the missiles we sold to them to kill Iran?
Bosnia- Wait didnt we put all the different religons there?

The list goes on

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Mono, do everyone a favor and read the posts before you respond.  Bander got his rant off by stereotypical spouting of bullshit.

Mono I agree with you for the most part Can anybody here name me a country we have been mad at since the cold war that we didnt dig our own grave;

Vietnam- Lets have democratic elections, wait hes gonna win? Shit lets put in a dictator
Grenada- 8 American Civi's placed there now we better attack
Gulf War- Are we taking friendly fire or are those the missiles we sold to them to kill Iran?
Bosnia- Wait didnt we put all the different religons there?

The list goes on

Zaitsev, your ignorance is boundless, isn't it?  I just love it when a kid reads some propoganda and thinks he understands everything.

First, if you think GM wasn't the cause of Vietnam (and a bunch of other companies), then you really haven't read your history.  It was big business that caused Vietnam, not our government or quest for democracy.  Companies that had factories and investments over there were afraid that the same thing would happen that happened in Cuba when Castro came to power (how many Americans lost their shirts and how many millions were lost by American companies?)  Nobody is defending Viet Nam, but get your facts right.

Second, Grenada.  What in the fuck are you talking about?  8 civilians?  Do you even know what it was about?

Third, the Gulf War.  Are you saying that supporting our allies, with the full backing of the UN was the wrong thing to do?  That holding up our end of a treaty (which some European nations could learn from) was wrong?  

Fourth, Bosnia.  Ah, no, we weren't the ones that organized Ygoslovia.  That would be due to those European countries that had a say in the matter.  

You don't even seem to know when the cold war started and ended.

Do everyone a favor Zaitsev, read some opinions from the other side.  Not just the far left wing crap you have been.  The USA hasn't dug itself a whole at all, except for Nam.  Bosnia, Africa, Gulf War, Korea, those are all UN actions.  You are pointing in the wrong direction.  At least point to major fuck ups like Iran-Contra and Panama.  You really need to do your homework and not just be an anti-Bush / anti-war sock puppet.

[*(SPU) mono]

Mono, do everyone a favor and read the posts before you respond.  Bander got his rant off by stereotypical spouting of bullshit.

erm, beg your pardon? i was replying to you and not to bander? ... and i at least tried not to be stereotypical ... oh well.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

bah. i din't real the whole 3 pages of this thread, but some things here can't stay undisputed. some of the following points may be redundant with earlier posts, my apologies in advance.

Mono, you were replying to my reply to Bander.  You admitted not reading it all.  You should before getting involved.  It's rude not to.

1. "jaded european propoganda machine is still working in overtime" - sure is, but it has still way to go until it reaches same efficiency as the american one. omg, does anyone here believe what he sees on TV? omg

No, the european press has more practice and works just as well.  And doesn't have all the freedoms that the American press does.  And this was a reply to Bander, who's anti-American rants on page one and elsewhere prompted it.

2.  "if America sucks so much ass like you think, why do so many people come here" - well, do i care? quantity == quality? omg again. "if britney spears sucks so much ass, why do so many people love her?" i don't care at all, i don't come along well (at least politically, and with regard to music) with maybe 95% of my fellow citizens anyway, so why should i care? btw, i have very good friends in the states, but do i have to love everyone there? this "be with us or be against us" shit sickens me to death.

Again, you stick your nose into a reply directed at Bander's comments.  And yes, in this case quantity does equal quality.  More people obviously would want to go where they think it's best, no?  <sarcasim>OMG </sarcasim>  It's not a be with us or be against us thing.  I'm not stereotyping europeans, but I sure as hell am going to defend against false stereotypes given to the USA.

Your comments about Saddam and Bin Laden being wholey products of the USA is bullshit.  While the USA did contribute to the problem in many ways, they weren't what shaped the development of such assholes.  Anyone that starts wars or kills innocents in the name of God or Allah or the Great Spirit is just fucking wrong.  None of the scriptures teaches it, it's their own twisted mind that comes up with it.  

As for supporting the UN resolutions, you've negleted to address all that's been written already on this thread.  We shouldn't have to repeat it all for you, go back and read it, then respond to why the reasons given here are wrong.

[*DAMN Bander]

@Buccaneer:

Its a pity. U type a lot of words here and produce nothing than emty air. all u said didnt answer my "simple question". it bores me to answer to the rest of patriot (otherways called "fanatic") flamecrap.

instead really using ur brain and make (and speak out your OWN thoughts) about consequences and cruelity of WAR or TERROR in general u spread just a lot of plain "woah i got the muscles and u are a nazi" shit (muahaha. bah!)

Not many people comming to europe? ha! lol - yes they do. and they come. and they even get social backup from the contries they enter. we have many problems with that fact too but before talking "america is the perfect place" shiat again look at what u even do to your mexican neighbors (is it true? do u really have mines on the border? i really think THAT could be some "evil badass propaganda".

respect to mono AND EVRY DAMN american dude or ladd who may be patriotic (there ARE mayne reasons to BE proud to be american. yes indeed - but NOT cuz u have the fattest army. hitler also once HAD and USED it. not that this fact made him to a "good man". i think everyone agrees here.

if superman uses his powers in a selfish way he wouldnt be a superhero anymore but a superfoe then.

please help avoiding "colateral damage" among our poorest human brothers and sisters instead finding stupid arguments why this could be a "good war". and dont fickup every american aniti-war comment with your warmonger fanatic shiat please.

for my taste: i am always VERY happy if i read posts from THINKING and social americans.

basta camarillo - eat my shoe buccaner - my dig is reservated for my gal only biatch ~

Bander

[abe]

OMG
Bander, ive tried not responding to most of your comments because they are, for the most part, either mindless dribble or personal attacks on bucc or py, but wtf?
so basically, when americans don't agree with you or simply see things differently than you, they are "not thinking"? u seem to be under the impression that every american who thinks a war on iraq is justified is either a die-hard republican and bush supporter or is somehow brainwashed by our government. i don't wan't to shatter your convenient stereotype of the numbskull redneck who doesnt know where iraq is, nor do i want to repeat a point that bucc has frantically been trying to make in every post in this forum, but you bander, you obviously don't get it: supporting the war does not mean that you like bush!!! if you are german and you are against the war, does that automatically mean that you like gerhard schroeder just because you agree with him on this issue??? in fact, i have despised bush ever since he started campaigning for president and i still think he's a total noob at what he does. but, and i don't see why you can;t get this through your skull, i think that he is currently the needed steps in protecting america, it's citizens and our interests. even, bill clinton (who i think was america's best president in decades), came out on larry king the other night and said he supported what the president was doing. this is not a partisan issue.
Bander, you speak of war and terror in your post.......i suggest you go look up a report by the UN or amnesty international about human rights in Iraq. maybe then you will have a better idea of what state-sponsored terror is. and war....the iran-iraq war was the most costly convential war since ww2. also, as you are probably aware, in 1990, saddam pillaged, oops sorry i meant to say "re-annexed" (sarcasm), kuwait. two wars, both started by the same guy. now tell me who is warmongering and who is protecting their interest. btw, i heard you ask in a post why america didnt go to bagdhad and remove saddam back in 1991/92. removing saddam would have hurt our relations with every arab country back then, just as it is hurting them now. the difference is that september 11th made us realize that there are people in the mideast (and in europe) that will hate us no matter what and that the threat from saddam outweighs the benefit of having counties like syria, egypt or jordan on our side.
something that has been largely ignored in this discussion is what iraqis themselves think. i think that just about anyone in iraq who isnt in saddam's immediate entourage will be happy to see him go, even if this means a war. everyone who keeps bringing up the disasterous effects of a war for the people of iraq is ignoring the fact that the status quo is even worse for many of them.
bander, instead of making moronic personal attacks on people with whom you don't agree why don't you try looking at their arguements and explaining why, in your view, they are wrong. otherwise it's like talking to a little child. if you do eventually make a worthwhile point, i promise not to reply with somthing like this:

and dont fickup every american aniti-war comment with your warmonger fanatic shiat please.

LMAO, does'nt it say something about your arguments if they are that easy to "fickup"?
as for the "flamecrap".....i just looked over the thread and it seems to me that you started it. before your first post, everybody's comments were respectful, even if the debate got a bit heated, as it always does over this issue. having a discussion and being an ass are two completely different things, bander.....maybe you should learn the difference.

[Ghost of Bondo]

Abe, do you even read what Bucc posts or are you to busy sucking his undersized dick (which he makes himself feel better about by having such long posts).  He ridicules every single person who disagrees with him.  Zait, Bander, and myself.  Bander has lived much more than the rest of you here.  Admittedly he's probably smoked much more pot as well, but that is aside the point (proof why some countries in Europe are nice ).

You mock his english...well, good for you...feel free to mock my spanish because it sucks ass.  It of course isn't my native language...and guess what, Bander's isn't English.

As for supporting or not supporting the war.  It may not be a partisan issue, but it is something only half the country supports, and that is in the US where the popular support is strongest.  In the UK, in Australia, in Canada, some of the other countries on the US's side, public support is even worse than it is here.  And then there are the numerous countries that don't support it where the public support is greatly against the war.  If not a majority of public or political leaders think it is a worthwhile war, that is a definate sign.

Bucc, you talk about Vietnam being because of big business not wanting to have the same thing happen that happened in Cuba.  Two things...who basically put Castro in power...the US.  Secondly, Vietnam was fought under the Marshall Containment Plan of stopping communism (a related issue to the big business but the one that overshadows it).

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Bander, you girlfriend is probably as disappointed as everyone else.

What's pathetic is that you think you are informed Bander.  And that anyone that disagrees with you is a warmonger.  Fuck off.  

I don't monger war.  I don't want war.  That doesn't mean that war isn't sometimes necessary.  I've never talked about the USA haveing the badest ass army, and I could care less.  

Oh and Bander, I answered your one fucking simple question three posts ago.  Too bad you are too fucking stoned to read it.  I also notice that your fucking biggoted ass hasn't answered any question of mine from my first post.  So it is you that can't think for yourself Bander.  I think just fine.  I posed many questions, and you haven't touched them, so don't bring your hate to me, save it for yourself.

Bondo, Bander hasn't lived much more then me.  You don't even fucking know me.  So get off your high horse.  I only ridicule the idiots.  Tasty doesn't agree with me, often, but I don't ridicule him.  Cookie doesn't agree with me quite frequently, but I don't insult her.

No, I save my contempt for the dumbasses.

Bander - because his stereotypical anti-American bullshit is stinking up the place, and no better then those he is trying to bash.

Zaitsev, because he can't actually think for himself, but instead vomits out catch phrases and bullshit figures that he has probably heard around the dinner table with his parents.  He can't defend anything he says.  

You, because you are the ultimate dumbass.  

Oh, and btw, stopping the spread of communisim was the excuse, not the reason.  There are many good books on the subject.  But, big business, led by GM/GE, is who put the pressure on the government to go in and stop it.  It has nothing to do with how Castro got in power, only with what he did once he got it.  They didn't want the same things happening in asia, and they put the pressure on the government to start acting.  Just like oil companies are the biggest backers of the Gulf Wars.

My point all along was, in this case, War may be the right thing even if our government does it for the wrong reasons.  And for you and dumbshit Bander who misses it everytime I write it, it is still a [size=+3]BIG FUCKING MAY[/size].

That is the biggest reason why all three of you earn my contempt.  Because not one of you can actually READ someone elses post.  You can just skim it for the flavor before you have to get your rocks off and call me a war monger.

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Buccaneer your wrong. You refuse to acknowledge the fact that US washes its hands in blood  everyday and YES in vietnam they had a democratic election that ho chi min would have won and YES we went into Grenada to get out "students" and YES we paid Hussien money to kill Iran and I at least can acknowledge that our country is decietful and cheats other countries and thats why shit like 9-11 happens you think it was a  "random act of violence" like Bush said??? Whos the one being blinded by propoganda now?

[Ghost of Bondo]

Bucc, you are in no position to decide who is and isn't smart, or as you would put it, who is and isn't a dumbass.  For you it has nothing to do with intelligence.  You just scream dumbass at anyone who gets on your bad side.  You are a disgrace to this forum.  Maybe you should realize that no one reading your posts as you claim is a sign that no one likes you or wants you here.  Your posts are always the same bullshit.  Calling certain people dumbasses and trying to say how stupid their posts are, spouting paragraphs of your own garbage, and then assuming that because you are big college grad that what you say needs to be taken as holy scripture.

[*(SPU) mono]

Mono, you were replying to my reply to Bander.  You admitted not reading it all.  You should before getting involved.  It's rude not to.

did you actually read *my* post? i said i didn't read 3 pages of this thread, but i very well read bander's and your's and most others too. how could i have replied to your points without reading your post?

Again, you stick your nose into a reply directed at Bander's comments.

erm, if you don't want me to comment your reply to bander's post, maybe send it to him as a pm next time?

Your comments about Saddam and Bin Laden being wholey products of the USA is bullshit.  While the USA did contribute to the problem in many ways, they weren't what shaped the development of such assholes.

you can't be serious. bin laden's mujaheddin in afghanistan *were*built*trained*and*supported* by the US to fight against the evil red empire that was invading afghanistan (what they gladly did, as the communists where perfect 'infidels' as they denied god and religion). how can you possibly say this is no fact? i can give you tons of links and literature on this topic if you like (all: read "the age of extremes" by eric hobsbawm, very good book on the 20th century).

somewhat same story with saddam against iran, albeit not for exactly the same reasons.

CW? --> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/18/1029114048796.html

yea, all propaganda and blackmail, i know.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

you think it was a  "random act of violence" like Bush said??? Whos the one being blinded by propoganda now?

Really?  I've said that I belive that?  WHERE??  

Have I ever said that our country or government has no fault?  Have I ever said that we haven't done anything wrong?  No, I said to get your fact right Zaitsev.  I'm fully aware that the US government has done things aweful.  Just like every other government on the planet.  But I don't agree that it "washes it's hands in blood everyday".  That is bullshit.

Bucc, you are in no position to decide who is and isn't smart, or as you would put it, who is and isn't a dumbass.  For you it has nothing to do with intelligence.  You just scream dumbass at anyone who gets on your bad side.

Absoluetly wrong again, dumbass.  I only call out the bullshit where I see and smell it.  Which happens to be with you most of all, and Bander to a good deal.  Like I said before, show me where I call Kami, Cookie, Tasty or any of those others that don't agree with me dumbasses?  You can't.  

You are just trying to discredit me to discredit my points.  An old political mud slinging trick, that you've posted you are against.  Hmm.  Another case of you being a hypocrite, eh Bondo?

Maybe you should realize that no one reading your posts as you claim is a sign that no one likes you or wants you here.  Your posts are always the same bullshit.  Calling certain people dumbasses and trying to say how stupid their posts are, spouting paragraphs of your own garbage, and then assuming that because you are big college grad that what you say needs to be taken as holy scripture.

Seems to be you and Bander not reading my posts.  Not everyone.  And I call the dumbasses what they are, so what.

And I don't just try to show how stupid their posts are, I often succeed.  

As for why my posts should be taken seriously, it's only due to the posts themselves.  If I bring up college of life experience, it's because it's relevant to the discussion.  Like the fact that you talk about how great other places are, when you've never lived there.  While I have.  That's a very good reason why my opinion is more credible then yours.  You are dreaming while I've done it.

you can't be serious. bin laden's mujaheddin in afghanistan *were*built*trained*and*supported* by the US to fight against the evil red empire that was invading afghanistan (what they gladly did, as the communists where perfect 'infidels' as they denied god and religion). how can you possibly say this is no fact? i can give you tons of links and literature on this topic if you like (all: read "the age of extremes" by eric hobsbawm, very good book on the 20th century).

I've read it, thanks.  It was a little tainted towards his communist viewpoints for me, but an interesting read.  (every history book is tainted in some way, just like any other media)

And maybe you should go back and read my post again.  I said that the US did contribute.  I said that we didn't shape the development of the assholes.  As in, we didn't define "infidels" for them.  We didn't invade them.  We didn't teach Saddam to be a murdering sonofabitch, he already learned it.  

You are to reactive Mono.  Slow down and look at the points.  Yes, the USA used these assholes when it suited their purpose, 20-30 years ago.  Did we make them the assholes, no.  Did we contribute to the problem, yes.  So, when I disagree with you when you take the far left point of view that they are "entirely a creature of the US".  There is nothing entire about it.  They are madmen.  We used them, supported them when it suited us, but we didn't create them.  They were already there.  Creatures of their own environments.  

So yeah, If you read that I don't agree that we created Saddam and Bin Laden, then you read correctly.  If you read that we are not WHOLEY RESPONSIBLE for them, then you read correctly.  Because that's what I said.  If you read that I don't think the USA has any responsiblity in them, you didn't read it right.

Oh, and I read your post just fine.  What part of "I think it's rude not to read it all" don't you get?  I know you said you didn't.  And I think it's rude.  I don't care if you read must my posts or not.  You keep arguing like I missed something, but what?

Time to run, but think about it.

[abe]

Bondo,
can u please show me exactly where i made fun of bander not speaking proper english? as far as i can tell, i was saying that his arguements (if they can be called that) were poor, not his ability to express them in english. and don't start this shit by accusing me of somthing like that....do you have a problem with me or are you just having a rough time responding to what else i said? either way, that's not the point. bander, in case I said anything that appeared as mocking your english-skills.....it was not meant that way. i do think your a simpleton because of the kind of remarks you make here and your style of posting (i.e. calling everyone morons), but this has absolutely nothing to do with your language skills. in fact, german is also my native tongue (as well as english) and i spent more of my life in germany than anywhere else.....don't make me out to be some xenophobe who doesnt like eurotrash and makes fun of people who don't speak english, bondo. when you do that you are just shitting all over yourself. tu madre duerme con my pero, maricon.....now go work on your spanish.
zaitsev, you seem to have a rather rudimentary understanding of US foreign policy. try checking out the facts first and then stating your opinions. everyone is entitled to an opinion, as long as its an informed one.
and mono, you are exagerating to what extent the US is responsible for bin laden, al-qaida and saddam. the US did support the mujahedeen financially and with certain weapons, but they didnt, unlike what some ppl will tell you,  "train" osama. the US gave the mujahedeen money,training and weapons throught he pakistani military intelligence, not directly. but i guess you it would have been better to let the USSR annex afghanistan (sarcasm). saddam-yes we gave him weapons so he could go fight Iran, but so did France, the UK, Germany, the USSR and countless other countries. at least the US isnt turning its back on the problem the way france and germany (who are as responsible for the problem as the US) are. france are the slimiest of all, because for them it's not a question of principles, but rather of whether war or peace turn out to be more profitable. saddam owes them money and they want it back...maybe if we can give them a cut of those oilfields......
Bondo, i'm not the one sucking cock around here. have you even read some of the dumbass shit in bander posts? he sounds like a 14 year old. and before you go accusing me of mocking foreigners, i should add that i'm reffering to what he is saying and not to his english. matter of fact, bander can post in german if he wants....im pretty sure it will still be the same stupid points though, so don't turn this into a language thing, bondo. why don't the two of you try to respond to other people's points instead of being anal and trying to read btw my lines.....

[Ghost of Bondo]

Abe, what I was taking as insulting Bander's English was your quoting of things like "fickup" or what not...but I think I had you pegged wrong so I apologize about some things I said.

Now for Bucc...maybe you should take your face out of the bull's ass so you can stop seeing and smelling bullshit so much.  I know they do a lot of livestock stuff up in Michigan but seriously, most people don't make an effort to put their face there.

In that post I said you call anyone who gets on your badside a dumbass.  I never said that cookie, tasty, or kami got on your wrongside so I don't know why I must show you when you called them dumbasses.  Once again, you are not a resonable judge.  Also, when was I trying to discredit your points by discrediting you.  Unless of course your point was that certain people are a dumbass...in which case what I posted is directly related to discrediting your point.  You succeed in showing how stupid posts are in your own mind.  Saying a post is stupid by posting a contrary point with absolutely no greater factual base does not qualify as proving the first was stupid.  Nor does mocking the person who posted it.

[EUR_Zaitsev]

I had to for homework type a letter to the editor and heres what it said:

   The United State should not attack Iraq. In our judicial system we, as the U.S.A. operate on one basic judicial rule: Innocent until proven guilty. Unilateral military action in the Middle East before we have the evidence of Iraq?s plans to build and use weapons of mass destruction would go against our own cherished ideals of fairness and justice. I am against military action in Iraq mainly for this reason. Also I object to needless loss of human life and further indebtment of the United States. Furthermore we are part of international treaty organizations. To attack would go against the advice of our allies and we should notice this.
   Most of our domestic views carry to our foreign policy, Why shouldn?t this be the case in Iraq? Although we have inspectors there daily, searching in every corner for nuclear weapons none have been found. Our case against Saddam Hussein is not much more then a hunch, so why, I ask, do we act as though he has been tried and convicted and we are prepared to carry out the death penalty on both Iraq?s leader and its innocent people? Before attacking Iraq the United States needs substantial evidence that Iraq has broken international law. Until this evidence is found they are innocent, just the same as people within our communities.
   Above a car, a house, and property, the ting that is valued the most should be human life. As is the in all armed intervention, lives will be lost. 300 U.S. military personnel were killed in the conflict and nearly 500 were wounded. 250,000 Iraqis were killed (at least) and many more have died from special bombs that were used by allied forces. Half a million people were wounded as well. To have these staggering figures re-occur would be genocide. To take down one man, you don?t need to kill hundreds of thousands of other. The last gulf war cost the United State 61 billion dollars. That is not counting the 54 billion our allies paid for us. These same allies will not be assisting us this time around and over 100 billion dollars will be lost and increase our nation?s debt.
   The United States shares responsibility for world altering events across the glove because we belong to groups such as the United Nations and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. When an ally from within these groups is in need of aid, we send it. When the U.S. is investigating events such as September 11 all our allies comply. To them our opinion is highly regarded and theirs should be to us. None of our usual allies support us in this random campaign of violence. Nothing has change in Iraq, but the media has flared up on the subject because our president has as well. Until we have consent from our highly regarded allies it would be foolish to try to muscle our way to Baghdad.
   There are many moral and pricey reasons for peace, and none for war. We lack evidence to support our gung-ho ways, we face a huge economic deficit, we will kill thousands of innocent people, and we are ignoring our allies. Until we have more then a suspicious feeling against Iraq we have no reason to begin a massacre.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Very strong letter Zait...good work.  One thing though.  You compare this war to the last a bit too much.  The last war was to stop the invasion of Kuwait, this one will be an invasion into Iraq.  The difference is substantial and MORE US and Iraqi soildiers and Iraqi civilians will die compared to the last war.  Plus, the cost isn't 100 billion but rather is estimated when you add in aid in rebuilding over the next few years upwards of 1 trillion dollars.  Of course these numbers only strengthen the point you make.

[The Voice of Bander I]

@Buccaneer: Suck my Dick Cheney while my GF gives yours a FAT european dildo. I am not responding to your "smartman" shiat anymore. Its senseless to argue with a dumbass of your kind. Basta, und jetzt geh scheissen du zur?ckgebliebener! And dont mention my name that often in your emty air posts: Its insulting for me (muahahaha!).

OMG Bander, ive tried not responding to most of your comments because they are, for the most part, either mindless dribble or personal attacks on bucc or py, but wtf?

Mindless dribble? only for mindless people. and yeah cleverman: i personal attacked Bushaneer cuz hes a faggot and i was in the mood to.

so basically, when americans don't agree with you or simply see things differently than you, they are "not thinking"?

Yes. I am using the same argumention of your goverment: Everyone who doesnt agree with U.S. war plans is a Terrorist, useless (like UN) or "the old stupid europe" (as powell freak said lately). Nah - i am just happy if i read AMERICAN posts who are not stuffed with the SAME shiat that your bushmen spread daily. If i want to hear that again i buy myself a papageno (Papagei auf Deutsch schwanzlutscher. ?bersetz dir das gef?lligst selber du trottel). Checked the irony? (Guess not. LOL)

u seem to be under the impression that every american who thinks a war on iraq is justified is either a die-hard republican and bush supporter or is somehow brainwashed by our government.

In fact: EVERONE who thinks WAR is justified BEFORE using every OTHER option is a idiot. no matter if republican, bush-groupie or propaganda influenced.

U just had your war there in Afghanistan. A little boring maybe cuz bombing tents away isnt that cool for late night TV show BUT instead of making a good job on your planned "nation building" you pack your tails and run off to the next war. when we talked about afghanistan most of you american fanatics not even mentioned iraq as a threat - but, oh magic trick - suddenly its the number one danger. Its a fact: Weak politicans hide in war and agression.

Lets just place 300 UN Inspectors permanentely in Iraq - if they make a move to use any possible mass-destruction shiat or if they gonna mobilize their army we still can smash em towards hell. and THEN we WOULD do it. I would really stand up and applaude and say "Yo - holy U.S.A., the home of god itself, the defenders of GOOD shall LIBERATE iraq from that evil diktator" - the only problem: Its YOUR fucking creation.

And now where you start  to ignore the follow up measures for afghanistan, its also much likely that u will have created your next "osama bin laden" or "saddam hussein" there soon. Good work! So lets make some shit and years later we send our troops there to clean it up again. Bah - this is annoying me. Call me what u want: your war reasons ARE bullshiat.

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[The Voice of Bander II]

i don't wan't to shatter your convenient stereotype of the numbskull redneck who doesnt know where iraq is, nor do i want to repeat a point that bucc has frantically been trying to make in every post in this forum, but you bander, you obviously don't get it: supporting the war does not mean that you like bush!!!

Dont worry. "the stereotype of the numbskull redneck who doesnt know where iraq is" is aready proven by Bushaneer. And yes: Supporting the war just means DAS DU IM MITTELALTER LEBST DU SCHWACHKOPF (hope your german is good enough to understand diss!). I support every war where a country defends itself from a attack. but not YEARS before and NOT just cuz you are actually in the mood for (PLUS having killed thousands of iraqis already - more than saddam himself - by refusing to give their children even the poorest basics of medicine and hospital equipment. PLUS the children dying from cancer there caused by american URANIUM ammunition (wich makes an area to a DEATH-FIELD for some thousand years, where people die from cancer or get born as cripples). Anti-American Propaganda? Nah. Facts. If u dont know about these facts u should SEREOUSLY start thinking about YOUR countries propaganda. It goes like: "Oh man, we are the good guys who just wanna save the world but all these evil foreigners (euros, arabs, asians etc.) hate us for no fucking reason." - I can tell you a MILLION reasons to LOVE the U.S. - but your warshiat and stupid brainless milita-goverment gives me and millions of other people as many reasons to be disgustet at your county. When i RANT around about that facts i just hope that it could help to make it BETTER again one day. we NEED a strong and wise america to solve the problem of this world. but we DONT need the police, the judge and the gravedigger in ONE person (aka Bushman and faggot friends.)

if you are german and you are against the war, does that automatically mean that you like gerhard schroeder just because you agree with him on this issue???

I am not german but i understand what u mean. But the point isnt "for or against bush" (who is just another stupid politican) - the point is: We live in year 2003 - war is a primitive thing thats only "okay" if u have defend your countries homeground from a intruder. And the point is: Many of the american people support these (dumb) warplans by using the same diction of their goverment. if powell is mad on euro - u fanatic guys are mad also. but have u heard the ful lstory of this dispute? nah. guess not. powell came back, said "euros suck" - now u all repeat: "euros suck!" "UN useless" etc ... thats like: zzzzzzzzz zzzzz zzzzz zzz - Oh we got war? cool! zzzzz zzzzz zzzz - is it over yet? who won? we? ah cool! zzzzz zzzzzz zzzzz ...

in fact, i have despised bush ever since he started campaigning for president and i still think he's a total noob at what he does. but, and i don't see why you can;t get this through your skull, i think that he is currently the needed steps in protecting america, it's citizens and our interests.

Do u really think that ruining the U.S. credibility in the world, plus devastating the U.S. state funds and economy, plus declaring war after war on every rock where he supposes to find some "al kaida" (all this by presenting no single proof to the world, keeping prisoneers in kuba with no lawyer or any "free world" or "human" rights?)

Do u think it helps the savety of the U.S. by angering every non-american human on this planet (except some Polish, Hungarian or British politicans who dont even have their people support in this). But one thing u said is right: Bushman is doing a good job by protecting YOUR interests. the bad thing only is: he doesnt STAY in HIS country to protect these interests.

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[The Voice of Bander III]

Bander, you speak of war and terror in your post.......i suggest you go look up a report by the UN or amnesty international about human rights in Iraq maybe then you will have a better idea of what state-sponsored terror is.

Yes. And this "state" (the Baath Party) was sponsored by the U.S. so iraqis will hate you for first "installing" saddam on em and now for bombing their houses cuz u wanna remove your "automated" puppet again.

and war....the iran-iraq war was the most costly convential war since ww2. also, as you are probably aware, in 1990, saddam pillaged, oops sorry i meant to say "re-annexed" (sarcasm), kuwait. two wars, both started by the same guy. now tell me who is warmongering and who is protecting their interest.

War Iraq - Iran? Hell: Iraq (Saddam!) was supported by both, U.S. and euro countries (even with mass killing components and tech-help). His mission was: Go and kick some persian mullah ass. Now everyone knows what the outcome was: Saddam in Iraq and a rise of fundamentalism in Iran (a war always rises such tendencies). P.S.: Bushman already talks from Iran being part of the "axis of evil" also. So next stop Persia? haha. damn you warmongers! go to hell and play chess with the satan. what did jesus say? DONT KILL! hell waits for all assholes. i dont worry.

btw, i heard you ask in a post why america didnt go to bagdhad and remove saddam back in 1991/92. removing saddam would have hurt our relations with every arab country back then, just as it is hurting them now. the difference is that september 11th made us realize that there are people in the mideast (and in europe) that will hate us no matter what and that the threat from saddam outweighs the benefit of having counties like syria, egypt or jordan on our side.

Yeah excactly. Again a confused little american thinks the whole world is hating his countrys goverment for NO reason. Sept.11 maybe NEVER happened if the U.S. would not wash their hands in blood daily! (btw.: u say fucking saddam started 2 wars already? haha, check back the timeline and find our in how many wars YOUR country was involved in this time. and find out how many chemical and biological weapons your OWN country has. Being friends (REAL friends) with syria, egypt or jordan would protect the U.S. MUCH more than every atomic bomb or special force member OR any stupid bushman plan. Austria has good ties into the arab world - so we didnt had a single terror attack here since 1960.
THATS being friends, save and protected.

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[The Voice of Bander IV]

something that has been largely ignored in this discussion is what iraqis themselves think. i think that just about anyone in iraq who isnt in saddam's immediate entourage will be happy to see him go, even if this means a war.

I almost agree. The "Normal" iraqi would be glad to see saddamm being removed. but  since the U.S. betrayed the Kurds back in 92 (who rised against saddam during the invasion and who where executed then from the regime) iraquis ask: why didnt the U.S. remove saddam when they got the chance for it? Why bombing our houses and killing our civilians again now? and WHO will be installed this time by U.S as our new "dictator". So they rather would like to keep the "evil that they know" instead of waiting for a new one.

everyone who keeps bringing up the disasterous effects of a war for the people of iraq is ignoring the fact that the status quo is even worse for many of them.

My previous posts already answer to this point. A clever person should be able to sum 1+1 together...

bander, instead of making moronic personal attacks on people with whom you don't agree why don't you try looking at their arguements and explaining why, in your view, they are wrong. otherwise it's like talking to a little child.

LOL. i make personal attacks if i feel so and i dont care about feelings of people who got no problem with the fact of a war where people get killed. My sympathies are with the helpless, not with the helpless dumb.

Little child? Listen: Big child wants the candy of little child in the childhood. big kid asks nurse if it can have candy. nurse says no. big kid hits small kid till it got that candy. now nurse says: bad guy! but big kid says: look - u hate me nevertless what i do. i am stronger, i am in the right. THATS childish! So send a letter to mr. bush instead annoying me.

if you do eventually make a worthwhile point, i promise not to reply with somthing like this: "and dont fickup every american aniti-war comment with your warmonger fanatic shiat please."

dude, i absolutely dont care. muahahaha!

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