Israel

[kami]

Sure I'll back it up, I was wrong about one detail though, it wasn't a hospital, it was a medical center and a pharmacy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2680777.stm

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Cossock, It is true I may be rather ignorent on Chechnyia but I just find it interesting your so powerfully against Isreal but you dont turn to your own country. What about that gas tha putin used or those  "military Roundups" where all Chechnian men Were taken in trucks and few returned? There are still tragedies occuring in Chechnyia weather the Ignorent Media reports on it or not. Who reports on Africa any morE? Nobdy because once violence happens all the time it no longer becomes news. Could this have happen in Chechnyia? I doubt it but the Russian Governement is wrong in this case and you cant use military to sew up a tear of independence it wont work because those feelings of difference will not change at gun point.

[Cossack]

You talking about the incapacitating gas they used in the opera? Let me see, I support that action because there were 50 Chechens straped with dynomite, they mined the entrances into the opera, and they had a very large explosive charge tied around one of the main support collums. Also didnt I say I did not support military action and what the Russian Government was doing?

[abe]

cossack,
i think u have your facts somwhat confused.....the yom kippur (or october war, 1973) war was, without any question (even from the arabs) started by Egypt and Syria. It was a sneak attack that was carried out on the yom kippur (day of atonment, the most important jewish holiday btw) and was not as you claim a response to any sort of pre-emptive strike on israel's part. u were probably thinking of the six-day war (1967). and about what you said was biased media report by the 'zionist' media in the US, the same argument is made by israelis, who feel that the coverage of the conflict (esp. on CNN and BBC) are completely biased towards the palistinians. the claim about media-bias is completely useless and irrelevant, because "the media" is a rather broad term and accusing it of generally being biased is not helpful. cossack, there is a book you should read if u havent already called 'Fateful triangle' by noam chomsky. it discusses the relationship btw the US, Israel and the Palistinians and hes very critical of Israel and the US' complicity. although i dont share most of his views, it is a good book...its much in the  same vein as many comments u have made here and im sure you would enjoy it.
zaitsef, u made a very good point about the media: 3 million ppl have died in Congo (fmr.Zaire) in the past 3 years, compared to some 2000-2500 in the current intifada, yet there is virtually no coverage of Congo, just like there is very little about chechenya.
and as far as bulldozing the houses of suicide bombers...how the hell can u have a problem with that? there arent many ways to discourage somone who wants to blow themself up, but threatening to bulldoze their families house and sending them into exile might make them think.
which brings me to a broader point: the IDF, for all its reported abuses, has made it nearly impossible for suicide bombers to enter Israel proper and most of the attacks in recent months have been on settlements. and they have stopped many bombers trying to get into Israel. to me that means that they are doing a good job. if it wasnt for all the brutality and ruthlessness that u guys are whining about, i dont think this would be the case.
Where i disagree with israel's tactics is in their treatment of the PA (Palestinian Authority), which they have destroyed rather then use it to fight the terrorist. imo, this is b/c sharon and arafat have been enemies for so long that they cant just act like nothing ever happened and be freinds (i can hardly think of any world leaders that hate eachother more). until both arafat and sharon are around, there will be no peace....
and cossack, the only reason you are making a distinction b/w chechenya and the occupied territories is b/c u r russian. if u were israeli im sure u would see russia as the bad guy, and israel simply as defending itself.

[Klatu]

Of course it's one sided but i see the other side all the time, hence this clipping.
I've got tons of evidence, enough to conclude that Israel runs our Mideast policy, they say so themselves. This is the single greatest cause of injustice in the Mid east. Injustice =War. There will be no peace regardless of Sharon or Arafat, as long as the US supports Zionazi's there will be war.


From: Arjan El Fassed

Here, in chronological order, is a list of twelve major
tactics of modern terrorism and the dates of their
first introduction into the conflict over Palestine by
members of the Irgun or Stern gang, (zionist terrorists
which included Arial Sharon)  and in one case by the
Hagana, which was the military organisation of the
Jewish Agency. Four of the twelve incidents, it should
be noted, took place outside the borders of Palestine
and are thus also early instances of international
terrorism:

1. Grenade in cafes: first used against Palestinians in
Jerusalem, 17 March 1937 (Colonial 146, HM Stationary
Office, London, 1938);

2. Delayed-action, electrically timed mines in crowded
market places: first used against Palestinians in
Haifa, 6 July 1938 (Sefer Toldot Ha Haganah, Tel Aviv:
Zionist Library and Marakot, 1954-1972: "This tactic
was the
fruit of the planning of a number of young ETZEL [i.e.,
Irgun] leaders" (Chapt. 43, p. 812);

3. Blowing up a ship with its civilian passengers still
on board: first used in Haifa, 25 November 1940.
Although the action was politically aimed at the
British, the ship in question, the Patria, had 1700
Jewish immigrants on board (the incident caused the
death of 252 Jewish illegal immigrants and British
police personnel, according to "A Survey of Palestine,
Jerusalem: Government Printer, 1946), vol. I, p. 61;
see also Munya M. Mardor, Strictly Illegal (London,
1957, pp. 56ff).

[Klatu]

Ther rest of em  Taking of hostages to put pressure on a government:
first used against the British in Tel Aviv, 18 June
1946 (see R.D. Wilson, Cordon and Search (Aldershot:
Gale and Polden, 1949), p. 55. Wilson, the official
historian of the Sixth Airborne Division in Palestine,
describes the incident as "a new development in
lawlessness". The individuals kidnapped were five
British officers. See also Supplementary Memorandum by
the Government of Palestine (Jerusalem: Government
Printer, 1947), p. 12;

6. Blowing up of government offices with their civilian
employees and visitors: first used against the British
in Jerusalem, 22 July 1946. The toll was 91 dead and 46
wounded. This is the notorious King David Hotel
incident. The mastermind behind the attack was Menachem
Begin, the late PM of Israel. The event is described in
detail in Thurston Clarke's By Blood and Fire (London:
Hutchinson, 1981). In the blurb of the book, Dominique
Lapierre describes the event as "the first massive
terrorist political action of modern history". See also
R.D. Wilson, op. cit., pp. 63ff;

7. Blowing up of embassy outside Palestine with a
booby-trapped suitcase: first used against the British
Embassy in Rome, 31 October 1946. See Nicholas Bethel,
The Palestine Triangle (London: Andre Deutsch, 1979),
p. 289;

8. Booby-trapped car parked alongside buildings: first
used against the British in Sarafand (east of Jaffa) on
5 December 1946. This was probably the first use
anywhere of this device. On this occasion, two were
killed
and 28 injured. R.D. Wilson, Cordon and Search
(Aldershot: Gale and Polden, 1949), p. 259;

9. Whipping of hostages as a reprisal for government
actions: first used against British in Tel Aviv,
Natanya and Rishon-le-Zion, 29 December 1946. The
victims were a British army major and three British
non-commissioned
officers. Supplementary Memorandum by the Government of
Palestine (Jerusalem: Government Printer, 1947), p. 24,
see R.D. Wilson, Cordon and Search (Aldershot: Gale and
Polden, 1949), p. 87;  see also Nicholas
Bethel, The Palestine Triangle (London: Andre Deutsch,
1979), p. 291;

10. Letter-bombs sent to politicians outside Palestine:
first used against Britain when 20 letter bombs were
sent from Italy to London between 4 June and 6 June
1947. The first batch of 8 letter-bombs arrived in
London on 4 June 1947. One letter was addressed to Sir
Stafford Crips, Minister at the Board of trade, and
another to Mr. John Strachey, Minister of Food. All
were intercepted by Scotland Yard, whose investigations
indicated that this was "another attempt by Jewish
terrorists to intimadate responsible people in this
country" (The Times, 5 June 1947, p. 4). Three more
letter bombs were intercepted on 5 June. One of these
was addressed to  Mr. Ernest Bevin, Foreign Secretary,
another to Mr. Anthony Eden, former Foreign Secretary,
and the third to Mr. Arthur Greenwood, Minister Without
Portfolio (The Times, 6 June 1947, p. 4). On 6 June,
nine more letters were intercepted. The content of each
were said to be capable of "making a hole in a steel
plate (The Times, 7 June 1947). On 9 June, two Zionists
were arrested by the Belgian police trying to smuggle 6
letter-bombs addressed to prominent people in Britain
(The Times, 10 June 1947). The man who made these bombs
was Yaacov Eliav, who was the bomb expert of the Stern
Gang, as he himself acknowledged to the Sunday Times of
London (24 September 1972);

11. Murder of hostages as a reprisal for government
actions: first used against the British in the Natanya
area on 29 July 1947. The victims were two British
NCOs, Martin and Paice, kidnapped on 12 July 1947. On
31
July, there were found "hanging from a eucalyptus
tree...The area for some distance round was mined and
as one of the bodies was cut down, it exploded, having
been booby-trapped. In this explosion, a British
officer
was severely wounded". R.D. Wilson, Cordon and Search
(Aldershot: Gale and Polden, 1949), p. 132. Menachem
Begin gave the order to hang the two NCOs. For his
defense of his action, see Nicholas Bethel, The
Palestine
Triangle (London: Andre Deutsch, 1979), p. 338.

12.Postal parcel-bomb sent outside Palestine: first
used against the British in London, 3 September 1947.
The bomb was addressed to a Brigadier in Intelligence
at the War Office, according to the Sunday Times of
London (24 September 1972). It exploded in a London
district post office at Howick Place, Victoria Street,
injuring two postmen (The Times, 4 September 1947, p.
6. For several months there had been persisent reports
from field intelligence that the Irgun or Stern were
planning a bombing campaign in Britain. See Nicholas
Bethel, The Palestine Triangle (London: Andre Deutsch,
1979), p. 348; Sunday Times, 24 September 1972.

See also: Walid Khalidi, Palestine Reborn, London: IB
Tauris, 1992, Chapter 5.

[Klatu]

Evidence:
The road map to peace... but first lest go to War. Can you conclude the Israel dominates US policy-making?
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=253422&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
clippings
"He is considered to be the architect behind the current closing in on Iraq, a clear supporter of Israel, and a leading member of the Jewish right in Washington, which includes Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Doug Feith, and the National Security Council adviser on the Middle East, Elliot Abrams."

"Wolfowitz has family, including a sister, in Israel, and is well-acquainted with many members of the government, including Nathan Sharansky and former ambassador to Washington, David Ivry."  

[Klatu]

BTW, collective punishement is a war crime, the US made, catepillar bulldozers that you and I pay for are a part of this, just yesterday our perpetually whining, always demanding money, High moral fiber ally bulldozed the hell out of 60 Palestinan shops While building a new Berlin Wall all with our money. How many new terrorists has this single event created? jus askin

[kami]

Klatu, and these were all Jewish attacks on the British? I'm shocked.

Israel has been abusing the goodwill of the world for a long time and it has got to stop. They don't give a shit about what the rest of the world thinks anymore because they've got the American government wrapped around their finger.

[Klatu]

Oh I've got much much more. Zionism is an extremist movement. The fact that they're PR is successful does not lessen the truth that this incarnation of Zionism is Religio-Facscist-Racist. Let me ask one question, a question which has far reaching implications.
Is being a Jew belonging to a race?
Isn't being a Jew merely another religion?
I think I want to have a state for my religion too, right there in Washington DC, I've got some Indian blood, Heck I've even had myself a holocaust to make folks feel extra sorry for me. I declare the right of return and will go to Washington and I think I like that funky looking White House over there the one with the Resident in it. I need to get some backing though from the banks, the media, the superpower of the month, this could take some time. Here look at this well sourced article. This is what the war is about
http://www.geocities.com/roundtable_texts/zionistplan.html
Next time they start talking making up reasons for the war think about this map.
Draw your conclusions.

[Ace]

BTW, collective punishement is a war crime, the US made, catepillar bulldozers that you and I pay for are a part of this, just yesterday our perpetually whining, always demanding money, High moral fiber ally bulldozed the hell out of 60 Palestinan shops While building a new Berlin Wall all with our money. How many new terrorists has this single event created? jus askin

They bulldozed 28 shops as I read in the San Jose Mercury.. The report of 60 (actually 62) came from the mayor of the town. I'm far more willing to trust the figures of a news agency than a biased mayor. Remember, these buildings were built illegaly. It is also reported that the proprietors were given ample warning.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

I read something above about media coverage...so here it goes concerning what is covered and what isnt.

a) We don't give a fuck about African strife because it is always happening non-stop and it really doesn't affect many people in the United States/Europe where you get your news. This is the same reason why you can never buy a map of Africa because the borders and names are always changing...

b) We don't hear about Chechyna anymore because the Russian government has banned all media sources that don't have explicit special permission from the province...meaning that anyone sheding Russia in bad light doesn't get to go there.

c) The Israel/Palestinean conflict gets the attention because it is happening at a major place for 3 of the world's major religions...that is why it is known as "The Holy Land."

On the topic of Chechnya, does anyone else remember the chemical shelling of Grozny?

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Well Cossock then we are arguing at to points on the same side yet About Isreal I dont support thier way of solving things, launching 4 missiles at a residental neighborhood to kill 1 cheif or something. STUPID. When a dog is cornered, its more dangerous, daily, Palestenians have less to live for and less reason to want to stay alive

[abe]

yes kami they were all attacks against the british and were carried out while they held the mandate (read colony) over the area and were all before Isreal's creation as a state in 1948. that is excactly why citing them, while historically interesting, is not relevant to the question: the government of israel did not carry out any of these attacks. it didnt even exist, yet. individuals that would later be part of that government, yes, but not the state of israel. and besides, do we accuse george washington of being a terrorist and starting a "terrorist state" because he fought the british and created the usa? no.
and as far as that buisness about demolishing illegal houses goes, the army bulldozes many illegal israeli settlement outposts as well. i dont see links to any story about that.
omg, i just read your last post Klatu and just tell me one thing: WtF, man? are u going to quote the protocols of the elders of zion now? or how about Mein Kampf? are u going to tell me that jews are plotting to overthrow the world? no offense man, but wtf? i agree that israel is a somwhat militaritic society, but "Religio-Facscist-Racist" or whatever...security complex, maybe but they arent fascists/racists or all religious (there are as many secular israelis as there are secular americans).
bah, ive had enough of this for right now, laterz

[Klatu]

The buildings were built illegally? What about the Israeli settlements! Are they "legal" C'mon guy! Plus collective punishmnet is still a war crime if it is 28 or 60 shops. Israel is in contravention of over 100 UN resolutions. The formula stands and becomes longer: hypocrisy = injustice=War.
Is being jewish a race or a religion?
I'm far more willing to trust a mayor that a Jewish owned media outlet. But to each his own, the salient points stand.


collective punishement is a war crime, the US made, catepillar bulldozers that you and I pay for are a part of this, just yesterday our perpetually whining, always demanding money, High moral fiber ally bulldozed the hell out of 60 Palestinan shops While building a new Berlin Wall all with our money. How many new terrorists has this single event created? jus askin

They bulldozed 28 shops as I read in the San Jose Mercury.. The report of 60 (actually 62) came from the mayor of the town. I'm far more willing to trust the figures of a news agency than a biased mayor. Remember, these buildings were built illegaly. It is also reported that the proprietors were given ample warning.

[Klatu]

The terrorist attacks of Israel are not relevant? HUH says who? I think they are very relevant. They go right to the heart of the matter, the creation of Israel.
 OMgawd are you gonna call me and anti Semite next? That's the very first thing an apologist or one brainwashed by Israel does when cornered, whip out the anti Semite nonsense word, the holocaust etc.  Next I'll be personally responsible for breaking Anne Franks pencil. Now having said that I'll not say your an apologist for Israel, not yet but I think you are taking that path just as you think iI'm taking the path to what would properly be called Anti-Jew. I have nothing against the Jewish religion my friend. Nothing more than I have against organized religions in general.

Look. Lets not go down this path which always results in name calling. Why not tell me why my evidence is wrong. I'll support my use of he word Religio:  Israel was created for Jews alone, it is in their writings. This means the Jewish religion or Zionist Cult if you will. There are many laws pertainig to the primacy of Judaism. Therefore I use the word RELIGIO. It's a made up word, it means there is no separation between church and state. I'll get to the fascist and racist part later if you wish but I'd rather move on to larger more important aspects.  The fascist and racist evidence will become apparent. In fact, to facilitate this let me withdraw the word Fascist and Racist.
The Protocols of Zion, Actually the origins are inconclusive. There is no proof for either view. I don't know who wrote them or if they are authenitc, but somebody did and whoever did was one devious, clever, and maybe brilliant strategist. If I were wanting to take over something, like the world, I would add it to my arsenal.


yomg, i just read your last post Klatu and just tell me one thing: WtF, man? are u going to quote the protocols of the elders of zion now? or how about Mein Kampf? are u going to tell me that jews are plotting to overthrow the world? no offense man, but wtf? i agree that israel is a somwhat militaritic society, but "Religio-Facscist-Racist" or whatever...security complex, maybe but they arent fascists/racists or all religious (there are as many secular israelis as there are secular americans).
bah, ive had enough of this for right now, laterz

[Cossack]

I remember the chemical shelling of Groznyy. Yes wasnt it in the movie "Sum of all Fears"? Assasin, Russia did not shell Grozny with chemical weapons, people would have noticed, even with the small amount of media coverage available. You have your facts mixed up there. However there have been reports of chemical shelling in the Mountains, but that still remains to be proven. It is true there was shelling in Grozny in 1996, but they were not chemical, send me a link to proove me wrong otherwise. It still does not change my stance of Russia's military actions.

As for Israel, they can kill as many palestinians as they want, gas as many children as they want, as long as I am not paying for them. The money we give to them could be used for other useful things for our own country. As for Zaitsev, I complained about Israel instead of Chechnya because I am paying for Israel just like many Americans on this board that are of age. I dont know any Russians of age here that are paying for Chechnya through their taxes. I put Israel on the spot because I thought everyone had a common knowledge on the crisis as opposed to Israel.

[abe]

Klatu, you need to chill out my freind...
ok, lets go in order:
the reason i say that citing attacks by jews in the area before 1948 is irrelevant is that tHERE WAS NO JEWISH StAtE At tHE tIME. once independance was achieved, israel commited itself to behaving like any other responsible state. and thats that. there were also incidents of terrorism and attacks on jews and british by palestinians....i dont see u cite any references to those. unlike other countries in the region (namely Iraq, Iran, Libya and Syria) the state of israel has never used terrorism as a political tool. they may have strong-handed tactics and have carried out executions of wanted terrorists abroad (notably the Black September group after they murdered the israeli team at the munich olympics in the early 70s).
next: buddy, if you read over my post carefully, you will find that i didnt accuse u of being anything. i was merely making a point about the information u are citing: its is biased, its is propaganda and in my opinion garbage: just like mein kampf. i take anything that is published by an association with this name (Association of Arab-American University Graduates, Inc.) with a grain of salt, as i assume u do with materials published by israels ministry for foreign affairs, the IDF or the anti-defamation league. I don't cite those here, b/c i realize that they are biased and one-sided and not helpful in this instance. klatu, never accused u of being an anti-semite or of, as u tactlessly put it, "breaking anne frank's pencil". just in case u havent noticed: over the past ten years, a lot of the same propaganda used by the nazis in the 30s and 40s is now very popular among palestinians and in many arab countries. that is why is why i was relating your inability to critically examine the sources u quote to nazi and anti-semetic propaganda, and not because i think u hate jews. and i seriously resent your implication that i do.....schmuck
now as for your question about whether jews are a race/ethnic group or a religion. well, in the strictist sense u may be right that judaism is a religion and not an ethnic identity, however, it also fits most of the definitions of a culture, ethnic group or race, as u put it. jews have a common language (hebrew today, yiddish before 1948) and common values, tradtions and cultural features. furthermore, for the past 2000 years jews have been characterized as being different by gentiles so that it was not simply by choice that jews became an ethnic community and not a just a religion.
next, the "religio" thing. im sure you are aware that 20 percent of the israeli population is of arab descent. these israeli arabs are citizens, they are entitled to vote and posess all the rights of any jewish israeli citizen. granted, u can only emigrate to israel if ure a jew, but thats the whole point.
and last but not least: WtF? there are questions as to who wrote the Protocols? Wtf planet are u living on, man?? those things were written y some tzarist secret police guy, who thought he could deflect attention from how shitty the tzars work was at home, y getting everyone pissed at the jews. tHIS IS A FACt. and there is no question. i recommend u look it up or ask somone who knows aout history.
i dont think ure a anti-semite, klatu, i just think your somewhat misinformed and uncritical of your sources (at least when it comes to the pro-palestinian ones. as far as your comment aout me going down the "apologist road" is just stupid. i disagree with the settlement policies and with many of the decisions made by the latest likud govt, and i am on some issues critical of the israeli govt. id rather see a guy like mitznah be pm in israel because i dont think that a permanent solution is achievable thorugh force. sharon and arafat ARE key to the question. arafat has locked himself into the corner by telling his supporters he wont accept a final status solution that doesnt include the right of return for palestinians who lost their homes in 48. such a provision would kill the jewish character of the state of israel and will therefore be accepted by NO israeli government, no matter how comitted to peace it is. and sharon...., well, i think u can probably answer that one yourself. unless these two men (and the generation they represent) step aside and let the next generation of israelis and palestinians asume their roles, there will be no peace. if you compare the minimal expectations of young ppl on both sides for the outcome of the conflict, you will find that, on the issues themselves, there is much overlap and little distance btw those of israeli youths and those of their palestinian counterpart...
if you choose to ignore this, you spit right in the face of peace. for u in washington this might not mean much, but i can tell u that i does for israelis and palestinians.
laterz

[kami]

the reason i say that citing attacks by jews in the area before 1948 is irrelevant is that tHERE WAS NO JEWISH StAtE At tHE tIME. once independance was achieved, israel commited itself to behaving like any other responsible state. and thats that.

Doesn't that mean that if the Palestinians got their own state (no Jordan doesn't count) with their own borders and their own freedom, they would cease the terrorism?

[Cossack]

I think I should tell you who Klatu is. I know this guy personally. He is an over zealous conspiracy theorist I know. I asked him  to look at my argument and tell me what he thought, apparently he decided to post his rhetoric. He does have some points though. Paul Wolfowitz is instrumental in deciding our foreign policy. He is a Zionist Jew to the extream. He allocates more of our hard earned tax dollars to Israel. The main point of my argument is that we should threaten to withdraw funding or even go further to withdraw funding. After all, your hard earned money you got from your humilating job is funding a war against a religion in Israel. If Israel continues to go down its road, it will head into open conflict with the Arab world, and maybe even drag us into it.
As for those that are critical of my stance on Chechnya. First off I could care less what happens there. I am not paying for that War through any of my taxes, I am paying for that hellfire missile that blew up a Palestinian Schoolhouse. I am a strong beleiver in let countries do what they want inside their borders. Let the Italians kill all the Austrians in Tyrol, let the Chinese kill all the Uighers in Western China, let Russia kill all the Chechens, let the Isrealis kill all the Palestinians, and let Iraq kill all the Kurds. As long as it does not spill over and I am not the one supporting it through my hard earned tax dollars I could give a shit. Since I do pay for what the Isrealis are doing, I have a problem.