Israel

[Cossack]

Israel, one of the most dogmatic facist countries on the face of the earth and this is why. Israel has treated Muslim Palestinians as second class citizens. Palestinians are not allowed to vote, they are not allowed to run for office, and are in no way shape or form represented in the Isreali Knesset (parliament). The Isrealis bulldozed down whole neighborhoods of innocent civilians just because there is one suspected Hamas agent. The IDF has attacked Palestinian school houses, poisoned their wells with cyanide (yes there is proof for this outrageous claim). Sharon has just issued permission for the MOSSAD (Israel's KGB or CIA) to carry out assasinations on AMERICAN SOIL AND AROUND THE WORLD! I dont care what way you put it, but those are foreign assasins running through our streets! 40 billion dollars of our own hard earned tax money is spent each year for Israel! We are funding a dogmatic government that provokes wars, invades smaller countries (ie Lebenon), shoots at American vessels (see USS Liberty) kills innocent civilians, bulldozes down homes, and hides 100-200 small scale nuclear warheads. It is clear that both sides are not innocent, but how the hell can we reach any agreement, or even more importantly how can we expect to be neutral for much longer? The Isreali regime has broken 116 UN resolution, thats a hell of alot more resolutions than Iraq has broken. I am not against the existence of the state of Israel, I am against us funding them!

Keep in mind I hate the Zionist Government and those that support its actions, I am in no way against the Jewish People, I am not an anti-semite, I am an anti-Zionist. To understand the Zionist movement you have to go back the days after WWII. You will see that its principles are founded of of dogmatic points.

[kami]

I'm agree with you 100% Cossack, the Israelic government has been taking way too many liberties and has been allowed to do so with American consent. I don't think it's strange for the Palestinians to be outraged over the Israeli violations when they are acting like pure fascists.



[Edited grammar error.]

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

I agree with you too my yummy sack.


Now I'll post a counter argument for the hell of it.

Israel's a valuable ally in the middle east. Ever since the formation of their country the United States has backed all their actions. We share technologies and intelligence. They're practically a puppet country. Yes they've committed some hanoues acts but they have every right to do so. For years the palestinian terrorist groups have been bombing innocent civilian (Israeli) targets. It's gotten to the point where the Israeli government doesn't care how the military handles these attacks. They are allowed to train their troops and assassination squads with guerilla tactics. This form of fighting is needed in order to counter the increasing danger of palestinian bombings. Besides, before the time of Jesus Christ palestinians and jews have been battling for religious domination. They are taught to hate each other.

Think of this...jews that may live in palestinian countries are treated the exact same way palestinians are treated in Israel. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[Cossack]

The Jordanians arent bulldozing down whole Jewish neighborhoods though. On another note, I wouldnt care what happened in Israel, I could care less if they killed a bunch of Palestinians, but when I am paying them through my taxes, I have a problem.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

One note.  Not everything is black and white.  You are talking as if America approves of the way in which Isreal treats the Palistinians.  And I bet it's because we know they do it and still give them aid.

Well first off, while I myself don't approve of how they do things, they aren't doing the ethnic genocide that was going on in Bosnia either.  They more or less just discriminate in a big way.

Secondly, unlike major world powers, countries in the middle east do not have a seperation of church and state.  You don't see a Palistinian in government there, nor do you see a jew in the government of Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.

Thrid (doesn't thirdly sound gay), The Isrealies only formed a government 50 odd years ago.  We had well over 120 year after we formed a government where we did much much worse to the people that lived here before us.  Many more years then that before we formed our own government.  You could say much the same about Russia and the way it treated many of the peoples from Siberia, Urals, etc.  To jump all over them would be hypocritical to say the least.  Especially when they aren't really comitting "crimes" al la the old Yugoslovia and other parts of the world.  

Last.  While Isreal's treatment of the muslum is only slightly better then say, South Africa used to be in it's treatment of blacks, why don't we sanction it at all like we did South Africa?  Now the reactionist would say that Jew's control the government here.  That would be very wrong.  The real truth is, Isreal is that hardly tame, viscous half wolf, half dog, that we keep on a chain in the back yard.  It keeps things "sane" for us, from our point of view.  The US keeps Isreal from kicking the asses of some of it's neighbors (and Isreal has proven that it can do just that in the past), and OPEC doesn't lower production quotas to artifically inflate the cost of oil anymore.  Isreal is the great equalizer from our point of view in the middle east.  Isreal needs us, we need them.  This argument isn't morally correct, but since when did morality really enter the political picture?  Answer: only when they cross a line.  But Isreal hasn't crossed it yet.

[*DAMN Bander]

Think of this...jews that may live in palestinian countries are treated the exact same way palestinians are treated in Israel.

First off: There is NO palestinian state neither palestinian countrys. Palestinians are refugees all over the world.

The rest of what u talked is just a plain lie. In fact the Jewish culture always had friendly ties to the arabic world - at last before the founding of the state of israel (tnx to british colonial times).

If u really think its true what u said u have no clue about the circumstandes of muslim or christian palestinian people who live under israeli occupation.

Cossak: Word!

[kami]

Pyrex, actually, Islam didn't exist before Jesus. And even when Islam was introduced in the 800's or something like that, they were really friendly towards the Jews, there were no real Islam-Jewish fights until the Jews reoccupied Israel.
Also, keep in mind that what Muhammed preached is not what the radical Muslims believe in now, they've built a way more militaristic interpretation of it, therefore -Islam- is not to blame for anything.


I think it's clear that Israel has crossed the line already, so has the Palestinians. The Palestinians have nothing to throw against the Israelis and therefore they reside to more drastic measures, and then the Israelis counter with even more, it's all just a downward spiral.

[SK(Home)]

One note.  Not everything is black and white.

hehe like your icon =)

yah i have to agree with buc in this situation

isreal hasnt really done any thing bad but if they do, =/

[Mr.Mellow]

Hmm, I have to say both Coss's, Py's, and Buck's (Bucc looks funny) opinions are all very well laid out and organized. I agree with Coss on how Israel gets away with a lot more then they should. Research the Israeli attack on the U.S.S. Liberty for proof, like Coss said. I also agree with Buck that Israel is an equalizer. I'm not going to comment on the other things, because I don't have enough knowledge on them. I must say that while Israel does make brutal retaliations normally, they can show restraint. During the Gulf War, when Iraq was launching scuds at them, Israel showed great restraint by not invading Iraq. If they had, it would have destabalized the region, and the war would have gotten much more complicated. Anyhoo, just my 2 cents.

[(SiX)Ben]

I gotta side with Bucc here... It sounds like you're accusing America of aiding Israel. I hate to make this globalation AGAIN, but all this is geo politics. Israel makes the best computer chips... Computer chips, You Cossack, are you using to run your computer. America needs these chips. We keep good trade with Israel, we get it. If things get tense with Israel, they could shut off their trade with us, which would make America's economy even worse off then it is right now. Note: Israel IS the main source for electronics chips and other essentials in economy today. America and other countries are forced to look the other way for the good of their economies.

Also, note Israel has been pushed around for a LOOOONG time. When they finally got their own country a brutal war broke out. Israel HAS shown tremendous restraint in every aspect of war, including with its nuclear weapons. It could kick most countries asses in a heartbeat, but it doesn't. Palestine is a fraction of what Israel could do.

Finally, I like to think of Israel as "America in the Middle East". Look at them. They are the superpower in their region. So, many other countries rely on them. They have nukes, they are allies with most everyone. Sure, they make mistakes. Dare I remind you what America and Russia has done to it's and other countries people in the past?

Ben

[*DAMN Bander]

Also, note Israel has been pushed around for a LOOOONG time. When they finally got their own country a brutal war broke out.

Muahaha. Listen: If i come home after work and i find u chilling in my flat, and wehn i ask u then:" Excuse me, what are u doing here? Who let u in?" - and if ur answer will be: "Oh, didnt u hear that? This is nor MY flat, the british gave it to me" - then u CAN be VERY sure that a brutal war will break out also.

Damnit. Whoever posted that Israel "didnt really do any bad" up there is a Idiot.

Peace ~

[jn.loudnotes]

Lol Bander. . .good to hear from you again.  But what if your great-great-great-greatx100 grandfather stole the flat.  And you of course don't remember this, and it's not your fault.  But then the guy who came into your flat to chill was the grandson of the guy whose flat your ancestor stole.  And he'd been living on the streets because he didn't have a flat anymore.

Now, if you could all just get along and share the flat, things would be fine.  But unfortunately, the hobo is still mad at your grandpa for stealing his flat, and so he's mad at you too. . .and you're mad at him for coming into your flat.  So. . .is either side really right?

The silly thing is, everything happened so many thousands of years ago, that there's no point in continuing all the shit.  It's not like you can tell the difference between a Jew and an Arab just by looking at them.  If people could just ignore their religions for a bit, they would be able to live right next to each other without any trouble.  

Nah. . .that's too sensible. . .instead we should all suicide bomb each other.

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Cossack I agree and I dont. I agree that we shouldnt fund them and without better rights they should be allowed to break away.


I disagree with certainly what you feel differently about. Palestine and Isreal very nearly is the same as Chechnia and Russia. not exactly the same but somewhat the same. Not I know there are terror attacks by Chechniyans on your country I remember you saying one was a few blocks away from you but Russia commits countless attrocities that equal if not better  the ammount conducted by Chechnia. What is so wrong with them being free.

[(SiX)Ben]

**Cowers in fear at Cossacks response, yet watches on with interest oas Cossy is going to go crazy on Zai**

Ben

[abe]

I think there are many parralels b/w the russian war in chechenya and isreal's actions in the occupied territories...
and i doubt that any of you have an idea of what it is like to lose freinds or family in a suicide bombing or ambush so u are in no position to judge israel that harshly. If the US or any other major world power was in a comparable situation, i assure u they would act the exact same way. picture fanatical mexicans running across the border and blowing up Barns and Nobleses all over texas...dont u think the US would begin treating mexicans with a little more suspicion. i do. the biggest danger in looking at the middle-east mess is to look at only one side of the story and thats exactly what cossack and all u others are doing.... if u only see the part of the news in which they describe an IDF raid in which a Hamas activist is killed along with his family, but not the one about the suicide bombing that sparked the assault, ure only getting half the story. it is very easy to get caught up on either side of the argument because there is so much debate and propaganda from both sides on the topic. that just my opinion, i could be wrong

[Cossack]

To Zait: I know you are very ignorant of the Chechen situation, it is not in the news that often, nor do many Americans know about it. I do not beleive in an independent Chechnya, but I also do not beleive in what the Russian Government is doing there. I may have made some anti-chechen outbursts on these forums in the past, but I am in favor of peaceful solutions. Now a days the Chechens arent even fighting, they are Al Queda and do not represent the opinion of the War-wary Chechen people or the legitimate Chechen Government. Plus this post was about Israel, I did not mention Chechnya once here. Keep in mind, the Russians are not attempting to push the Chechens out of Chechnya, they are tring to make the people of Russia to become bonded to the land and their common history instead of their ethnicity, unlike Israel who is tring to expand their Jewish State.
To Pro-Isrealis, you say that Israel has performed amazing restraint in these past 50 years? WRONG! Israel has instegated wars, and they started the Yom Kippur War by performing a pre-emptive strike on Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. American history books will say Israel did not start it, but the facts remain that Israel shot first. Some constraint if you ask me. Israel did not bomb Iraq when they "SCUDed" them, because America was doing that for them. Yet this is not an argument of Israel's might, but the morals behind its action and how we are funding them. I for one do not want my tax dollars to fund an American made hellfire rocket shot into a Palestinian School house. I am still awaiting response to the USS Liberty incident. Please do not read Israel's denials, but the experience as told by the crew members aboard that ship.
To Abe: Overhere (in Texas) I hear more about the casualties the suicide bomber caused to Israelis than what the Israelis caused to the Palestinians. The media companies are owned by Zionists. This is know secret, so it is natural that Americans favor Israel more.

[kami]

Well I just heard about the Israelis mowing down a whole Palestinian town and a Hospital because they were built illegally, atleast the Palestinians don't mow down the illegal Israelian settlements.

[Ace]

Well I just heard about the Israelis mowing down a whole Palestinian town and a Hospital because they were built illegally, atleast the Palestinians don't mow down the illegal Israelian settlements.

Yeah, they just strap explosives to their body and blow themselves up around as many innocent law-abiding Israeli citizens, all while bastardizing Islam.

[kami]

No one can defend suicide bombing, but no one can defend mowing down a hosptial either.

[Ace]

Mind backing up that claim? I read about that and it was just some commercial buildings build illegaly that were bulldozed. There was no mention of a hospital.