What is "punk"....c'mon tasty...you should know this......

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

I think it has to do with media. What's in the news/tv/movies etc is what people strive to be. You may say bullshit but I can assure you..there are plenty of people out there that only care about this one thing. They watch a Christina Agueliaerada;sfe (however the fuck you spell it) music video and the next day they're buying clothes just like hers. The "punk look" wouldn't have come around if it hadn't been for the punk bands in the 80's. The prep look wouldn't have come around if rich pricks in Hollywood weren't parading around in expensive clothes. Think of fashion shows. The models are perfect in every way and model perfect clothes. Who wouldn't want to look that way? Don't bullshit me with "I like the way I am"...everyone's insecure in their own special way.

Think of it like this. Whatever genre you choose..generally you're going to make friends of that genre. So its a given. Dress like a punk get punk friends. Dress like a prep get prep friends. Sort of like everyone dying their hair with highlights and what not. Where the fuck did that come from? Honestly it looks trashy. Putting bleach or chemicals into your scalp isn't very appealing. WHy do people do it? Not because they think it looks good...because everyone else is doing it. Because people in Hollywood do the exact same thing.

That's the truth plain and simple. Since everyone else is doing it..its ok for me to do it too.

[(SiX)Ben]

Tasty, am I a punk?

I think you all suck. A punk is just a kid who has ever done wrong in their life... Thus, all of us are punks.  Whenever we do something wrong we're called "punks"...

Other then that around here you can spot eem easily. They wear dickies, love music, have lotsa friends... Thats a punk.

Basically,. the true definition of a punk is havign a quality that sets you apart from everyone else or doing soimething that makes you stand out.

Ben

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

Ben you could say the exact same thing about nerds, preps, gueedos, goth, freaks, and homos.

[Precious Roy in class]

The true definition of having a quality that sets you apart is... "being different".  

Sorry if I shocked anyone with that revolutionary definition.

And for the record, because I'm curious what i should be "labeled:"

I listen to punk and indie rock.  (Think The Ataris, Piebald, NFG, Taking Back Sunday, The K.G.B., Wilco, Bright Eyes, and Built To Spill)

I wear t-shirts-usually that I bought at shows or places I've been or been given, jeans-typically levi's-relaxed fit, sweatshirts of colleges I'm somehow associated, L.L. Bean sweaters and overshirts, and my father or mother's old army coat.  

I hang out with people who are interesting to talk to, tend like the same music as I, and sre willing to do crazy shit at 3 o'clock in the morning with me.  

In my free time I hang out with friends, go to concerts, play frisbee, run a radio show, read, drown myself in drink, and play video games

What am I?

Oh yeah, and I'm looking for someone who likes long walks on the beach, pretty sunsets, and steamy hot animal sex. Can't forget that. *looks at his fellow "jn."ers with a licentious/pedophilic eye.*

[iBeer]

i couldnt help but notice someone state that a punk has lots of friends..not entirally true.  If you come to my school (my school is pretty bad) you will notice that ALL the 'cool people' are preps.  i would know im friends with half the grade 10s and dont care about the rest..u gotta wear shit like diesel etc. to fit in.  Its fads.  and THEN u see punks..they hang out in little 4 people cliques and they always try and act extreme.  its really kind of annoying to see poser rebels

[cookietwo]

and btw, the sex pistols were terrible

just curious cookie, what makes the sex pistols worse than any other influential punk band... like the ramones for example. and what punk music do you listen to?

the sex pistols wouldn't have been terrible but not for the inclusion of sid vicious. I despise him, he was a terrible human being as well as musician. Their music is racous, unorganized, the riffs misplaced.

Anyway, the "punk" bands i enjoy (some converging into the hardcore catagory):
gorilla biscuits, minor threat, black flag, the queers, the eyeliners, the misfits, charles bronson, fugazi, bad brains, melt-banana, magnetic IV, and screeching weasel occasionally a few of those bands are local and i wouldn't expect you to know of them. can't forget the ramones as well. and btw, what sets the ramones apart from the sex pistols is they had rhythm, good lyrics, well organized music, and a clue. I don't care if you do call them pop-punk, that's not necessarily a bad label when it comes to the ramones. They have a unique sound, and at least give them props for coming up with THAT much.

[(SiX)Ben]

Nay Py, Preps are "cool", nerds are "smart"  I won't touch on gueedos... goth are scary and anti-prep, freaks are just the normal people, and homos are Bondo's.  The definition of something thats ets them apart still pertains to mainly they are different in their own style. A certain quality inside strives out asking to rebel.

Ben

[Ace]

What am I?

The man who on one Fresca-induced high kidnapped wrath and repeatedly intruded him until wrath barely managed to get away by chewing off his own wrist.

Or, if you don't like that description, your friendly neighborhood janitor.

[iBeer]

Nay Py, Preps are "cool", nerds are "smart"  I won't touch on gueedos... goth are scary and anti-prep, freaks are just the normal people, and homos are Bondo's.  The definition of something thats ets them apart still pertains to mainly they are different in their own style. A certain quality inside strives out asking to rebel.

Ben

See ben, its not who you are, its the mortality.  Honestly, I've experienced alot of street shit, and i got street smarts.  but im also nerd smart..(no really im smartest out of all my friends) you have to understand, someone like me, is a fashion victim.  'punks' etc are also fashion victims...nobody really chooses clothes to 'express themselves' dont ever say it does... but honestly i would be the same if i was punk, i would act the same.  Its just the society you live in.  I dress so i fit in; so i can go party n get pussy (etc. etc. etc...).   There is no such thing as a fashion statement...just a fashio victim. write that down.

[jn.blackhand (forgot pw)]

*winks at roy*

*puts on absercrombie sweater*

*puts built to spill cd in computer*

*rocks out*

[(SiX)Ben]

See ben, its not who you are, its the mortality.  Honestly, I've experienced alot of street shit, and i got street smarts.  but im also nerd smart..(no really im smartest out of all my friends) you have to understand, someone like me, is a fashion victim.  'punks' etc are also fashion victims...nobody really chooses clothes to 'express themselves' dont ever say it does... but honestly i would be the same if i was punk, i would act the same.  Its just the society you live in.  I dress so i fit in; so i can go party n get pussy (etc. etc. etc...).   There is no such thing as a fashion statement...just a fashio victim. write that down.

Lies. You don'tget head because what you wear, you get head because how you act. And yes, I use clothes to express myself. Well... 1 shirt... that says "Correct me if I'm wrong (everyone else does)" and I wear Kings clothes. That expresses my favorite hobby, basketball, and favorite sports team, the Kings. I didn't mean smart either. I mean smart and the lack of laziness to carry those smarts out.

Ben

[iBeer]

ben, where do u live, ohio?

[Mr.Mellow]

Bah. I'm sorry, but no matter how good the band might be, you'd never catch me dead listening to a band called The Queers. I'm not a bigot or a homophobe, but it's just a kinda...I dunno. Distasteful name or something. Gives me the eebie-jeebies. I don't wanna know what goes on backstage after the shows...

[cookiedos]

no one ever said punk was tasteful mellow. plus, they're funny.. and their name isn't reflective of anything whatsoever. plus... queer also means odd btw

[tasty]

ben livesin that special place in my heart.

[jn.preciousroy]

Mellow, get this... not only des queer mean odd, it's meant odd since before it meant people who shoved dicks up their asses!  Call me crazy, but I think they were called "Queers" because that was such an odd thing to do!

You know what I love?  Those people who say "I'm not racist, BUT why can't those big black mammas get some work and get off welfare?" or something similar.

Or even better? "I'm ok with people who are gay so long as they don't try to do such and such to me"

My favorite?  "Some of my best friends are gay/black/hispanic/female."

If you don't want to know what the Queers do backstage (and by the way, it's probably drink, smoke, and hang out like everyone else, gay or not) then you need to grow some balls, as paradoxical as that may seem.

If you look at someone differently when they walk into the room because of their age/race/gender/sexual orientation then you are biased towar that group.

Needless to say, I am racist and sexist.  I have a negative prejudices against people from different socioeconomic backrounds, people with different sexual orientations, even people of particular religious sects, including the one I am a part of (f---ing christians)!

Basically what I'm trying to say is that you've been raised to be prejudice, whether by accident or by design, and it isn't until you recognize this that you can rid yourself of these preconcieved ideas.

Wow, this post went from mocking mellow to rant in the course of one paragraph.  Go me.

Now, so that I can make a (probably vain) attempt at staying on topic, here's my problem with the "punk" sub-culture... Punk is just a subset of rock.  It was a form of artistic expression, albeit a politically and socially charged one.  People (including bands themselves) capitalized on their similarities in style and ideology to form a counter-culture.  When the political tomfoolery of the late 70's and 80's died away, the purpose of such a counter-culture dissappeared.  Instead of fading off into oblivion, punk was assimilated to the mainstream.  The music evolved out of it's humble beginnings into the pop-punk and emo I love today, and the rest was assimilated into the mainstream.  As such, punk is no longer a counter-culture, but rather a sub-set of pop-culture.  Anyone sporting dickies is no better or worse than jn.blackhand with his abercrombie sandals.  Hot Topic is the American Eagle of the malcontent.  

Essentially what I'm saying is that anyone who identifies themselves as "different," "better," "worse," "oppressed," "enlightened," or "revolutionary," I'm not going to welcome you back to pop culture when you abandon your dickies, and stop bleaching your hair, cause, kids, you've been with it the whole time.


(The following is my editing)  Sorry, I didn't really enumerate my problem with the punk sub-culture. I don't care that it lost its focus and sold out, in fact, I rather enjoy that part.  My problem is that people think they've done and/or are doing something that they arn't, because they are as conforming as everyone else.

[*DAMN Exe1{utioner]

Ok first off this is fuckin cool.  No bashing.  Just making solid points.  

Ok now I have somthin else to bring up.  Everybody bitches about how Blink 182/New Found Glory/Green Day sold out.  

My question:  What is "selling out"?

I guess i cant really say much about it because I'm not famous or anything.  But this is what I think.  I am in a band, and if any of you out there play in a band, no matter what kind, you will know what I am talking about here.  For those of you that are not musically talented, please listen.  

Lets take a rock band for example.  Decent guitar that doesnt get out of tune easily on stage, has a nice sustain,  looks good.  $600 stock.  A nice pickup for the type of music you are playing?  70-120 Easy.  Now for the amps.  Lets say a nice Marshall Half-Stack.  JCM 2000 Triple Lead.  This new is maybe 1500 bucks I think.  The speaker cabinet is like 600.  Various cables, effects?  another 200 bucks.  I dont even want to go into how much a Decent drumset will cost.  You can easily spend up to over 3 grand on just the cymbals.  

Are you guys gettin the picture that this shit is e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e?  Good

You gotta be able to make a living out of making your music.  You guys can call New Found Glory sellouts if you want to.  I personally think their new cd blows ass, but thier old stuff is cool.  There are 5 members in NFG.  You guys know that for like the first 2 years of being on tour, they all slept in a fucking van?  Even when they werent on tour they didnt have enough money for an apartment.

I love playing music, and always will.  But i want to be sleeping in a bed and having more than 1 set of clothes to wear.

-Exe

[tasty]

Ok now I have somthin else to bring up.  Everybody bitches about how Blink 182/New Found Glory/Green Day sold out.  

My question:  What is "selling out"?

I dont think these bands sold out, because they sucked to begin with. The definition of selling out is when a band begins to change their music to make it appeal to a larger commercial audience, usually to appease a large corporate record company they just signed with. These three bands did not sell out because their music always appealed to mass audiences and hasn't ever really changed very much... I mean yeah their albums sound different but none of them ever really do anything innovative.

I'm not really one to bitch about bands selling out, because I don't really form attachments to certain bands... I buy on an album by album basis, and if a band starts to make music that I don't like anymore than I just won't buy their album. Here is a short list of bands/musicians that I do think we can safely say "sold out":

the former members of the band rage against the machine (now known as "Audioslave")
Nine Inch Nails
Moby

I have no problem with musicians making money. They can be rich as hell for all I'm concerned, if that many people like their album than good for them. The only thing that gets me is musicians that make their music a certain way or market it a certain way in order to make money. These people are not really musicians in my mind, they are more like businesspeople or cool versions public spokespeople that represent corporations. Musicians don't deserve to starve (thats why I BUY albums as opposed to pirating them which I know SOME people do).

[Ace]

Tasty, how is Audioslave selling out? I've heard some of their stuff and if you took out Chris Cornell it would sound just like they did with Zac. Chris Cornell just has a pretty different singing style than Zac, but that doesn't make him a sellout. On the whole, it is good music, but it just doesn't compared to old Rage or old Soundgarden. It is definitely a case of a band being less than the sum of its parts.

Executioner, selling out, especially for punk bands, is a cardinal sin. It is admitting that you are just a corporate whore and that you don't believe in your other music.

[jn.preciousroy]

Sell Out
Well, I know you can't work in fast food all your life
But don't sign that paper tonight, she said, but it's too late
I don't remember what I read, I don't remember what they
Said, I guess it doesn't matter, I guess it doesn't matter
Anymore - you're gonna go to the record store
You're gonna give'em all your money
Radio plays what they want you to hear
They tell me it's cool but I just don't believe it...
Sell out, with me oh yea, sell out, with me tonight
Record company's gonna give me lots of money and
Everything's gonna be
No more flippin' burgers puttin' on my silly hat you know
I don't want that no more, I didn't ask when we'd
Get paid, I quit my day job anyway, I guess it
Doesn't matter, I guess it doesn't matter anymore
You're gonna go to the record store, you're gonna
Give'em all your money, radio plays what they want
You to hear, they tell me it's cool, but I just don't
Believe it
Sell out, with me oh yea, sell out
With me tonight, the record company's gonna give me
Lots of money and everything's gonna be
I don't think it'll be so bad
I know it won't be so bad
Cause the man said "that's the way it is" and the
Man said "it don't get better than this" no no no
So i signed on to the record company, they say they're
Gonna give me lot's of money, if I play what they want you to hear
They tell me it's cool, and I sure believe it...
-Reel Big Fish

I felt that was fitting, so i posted it. But now, with my opinions!

Ace, it's obvious that you are much more of a purist when it comes to punk.  but then again that's why you like Rancid and I don't.

Selling out, by definition, is abandoning an independent (K, Hydrahead, Kung Fu) or semi-independent (Matador, Big Wheel, Vagrant) label for a big name, big money (major) label such as Capitol, Virgin, Columbia, or Epic.

Now, let me say some crazy-ass blasphamy.  Selling-out is NOT a bad thing.  It can be, but it is not inherently bad.  Consider a few cases:

Blink was originally on the independent Kung Fu records (also home to The Vandals, The Ataris, and MxPx, to name a few) until they sold out. And then they became the band we all know and despise today.

Green Day was on the semi-independent Lookout! records (also home to the Donnas, Pretty Girls Make Graves, The Queers, and Operation Ivy) until they sold out to Warner Bros.  Of course, their first album after selling out was Dookie.  Undeniably one of the best 10 albums of the 90's, produced after selling out.  Their music didn't change to fit the populous, the populous changed to fit it.  I mean they talk about masterbation in their hit song!  If that's not punk I don't know what is.  So, green day, by selling out, produced better music and got it heard by more people.  If you think that's bad than you're fucking nuts.

And then there is my favorite live band ever... yep, New Found Glory.  They never sold out.  They were the most pop-sounding band since ABBA from the moment "Nothing Gold Can Stay" was released.  Everything they've released has been on Drive-thru records, a semi-independent label.  Their last album, true, was nothing compared to their self-titled album, but they didnt deteriorate by selling out.  And I don't care what any of you say, "Head On Collision" might suck, but "My Friends Over You" is an incredibly good, albiet pop, song.

Basically, Selling Out is only bad if the band abandons their fans, generally by changing their music to be more mainstream.  But more often it is the fans who abandon them when they sell out, while they stay true to their music.  The most irritating thing about the punk and indie sub-cultures is their habit of hating any of "their" bands that becomes popular.