US, Iraqi conflict.

[(SiX)Ben]

Well... I started the first page of posts and realize that I really am too lazy to read what you people say (as most of it was already flaming on page ! I don't even wanna bother reading the flames on pg 2 and 3)

Anyway... I think most American's aren't asking enough questions...

WHY would we want to go into Iraq? Seems to be this is a personal vendetta from Bush... Look at when the information came out... just 2 days ago they said Iraq was terrorist, this is after the public stopped supporting his opinion... I disagree that this is a war on terrorism... I think Bush is trying to take our feelings from 9/11 and redirect to Iraq for his benefit...

Next, from where I read all you patriotic people were talking about how this would be a walk in the park? 2 Words: Uber BS! Although Suddam doesn't have nuclear weapons, he does have chemical weapons, and when attacked, he will use them. Do you guys even want to think of the effect of Mustard Gas? Honestly, this is not going to be anywhere CLOSE to easy. Iraq will go all out to defend themselves... Biological warfare included (Gulf War syndrom... mustard gas... dude... this list WONT end)


Also, have yah fellas noticed where their weapons factory's are?! In the middle of FRIGGIN TOWN! No chance a missle is gonna be used to take those out... Our marines will have to go on foot through a hostile city (which might I add, if we shoot anything up we're not supposed too, Iraq has several complains against us, and the UN can punish!) and into the weapons factory to kill all the people involved in "the axis of evil" ... Not to mention there have been reports of Red Cross's right across the street to the weapons factory... if we so as much damage a Red Cross building, not only would we become public enemy number 1, but also punished greatly...

Next, you guys must look at the string of countries that are pissed off at us! The whole east side of Asia is totally pissed at us (just think of the international screw ups that we committed there...) Seriously, they hate us... Most Americans seem to think we are well liked... Hell, its what I thought before taking AP Global Government. Iraq and China both are using censorship... Only their side of the story is being told. Internet sites such as "www.google.com" have been banned. Due to these impending facts to people in China, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, and several other Middle Eastern/Asian countries, Bush is the devil incarnate... We are his followers. America is literally one of the most hated nations in the world... Look at the world and see how they feel to us? Japan... Nuked... China.. Comunist... Malaysia, we forced them to let us build bases there... Dude... I didn't even start on Middle East! To them Middle Eastern society we live premiscuous lives... The one cure for this in the future would be for America to look at the countries history and feelings... To the Middle East we desecrated their sacred grounds... Personally, I could understand why they would bea little pissed... If someone went to my church and started cussing out my God, talking about how they were so much better then me, I might not be too happy about it...

One thing I find funny is the fact that America forces other countries to take the Republican or Democratic form of government when we defeat them in war... Why is the USA... 200 years old... Forcing Middle Eastern countries (like Afghanistan) to be Democratic... Maybe Democratic doesn't work for them! The Arab's have been around for over 2000 years! Who was the strongest race on earth in the early centuries of the AD? Arabs... The fact that they exist shows their form of government works well for them... We shouldn't force our own form of government upon them...

A question should be asked about these attacks... If we win (afterall we have 4 very strong countries supporting Iraq against us while only 1 strong country supporting us) what will we do?! There are 3 Muslim groups that are in a constant fight for power... Suddam's group of muslims is much stronger then the other two groups... If we take out his regime... Would we leave our men in there to take care of Iraq for another 5 years while we rebuild their towns and quell their resistances?! Will we pull out immediately? Leaving immediately would leave Iraq in a Civil War... Millions of innocents will die.

When countries such as Kuwait, who were literally invaded by Iraq years earlier, are against us invading  Iraq, doesn't this seem a bit odd?

More Next post!

Ben

[(SiX)Ben]

Now to my opinion,

Frankly, I still haven't made up my mind... I think it will be a huge mistake to go into Iraq and fight, but I'm as patriotic as the next guy... I'm even a republican (so you'd think I'd agree with Bush)... Frankly, I'm just wonderred at what price will we be willing to pay for this war... I think the US should continue it's war on terror or beef up her homeland security... Not spend it's time on Iraq... Then again, Suddam is a moron who keeps taunting the US... Basically, I still can't make up my mind... I just don't believe it will be as easy as everyone else believes... I can't think of much else to say...

I think we DEFINATELY should focus on Homelands security and foreign affairs... We seriously need more allies if we are going to survive in the world today! In the mean time... Globilization Globilization Globilization... Get that money!

P.S. Hussain is horrible... but even if he gets nukes, what will he do?! Mass produce of course... But still, if he fires only one the reprocussions against Iraq would be horrible... I can understand him wanting nukes... He wants to become a superpower or at least be able to defend his country in that extent! (Note: America is the world's only Superpower today!!!!)

Just one thing I'm adding as a modifier.... Hehehe I love how America was asking "Should we be allowed to use torture on these terrorists..." The polls results answerred negative... All the sudden, 2 days later, the terrorists who didn't say a word are confessing everything... Hehehe... I just got an instinct that America used torture...

Ben (awaiting to be flamed, because anyone on the first page who said this wasn't a cakewalk... and was serious shit seemed to be flamed... Well... Least I argued respectively and coherently )

[Cossack]

Sin, many countries have financial assets in Iraq. France, China, Russia (the evil countries) e.t.c. Anyhow back on track with Iraq. Fighting will be harder, and from a logistical view we should finish the Afghanistan War first. I am still concerned on the DIPLOMATIC implecatons this war will have on our relations with the rest of the world, especially the Arab world.  Militarily we will spank them. That is not the hard part. We then have to rebuild Iraq, and will they be open to it? I state this again: This war adds more instability in an already unstable region. Sooner or later the aggresion of the U.S. will catch up to it. All these small wars and incursions in the name of NATO and the UN will give the US a black eye as its aggresion puts hate into more people around the world.

[Mr. Lothario]

     The stupidity of the world being at the mercy of the Middle East for oil has always appalled me. There's a simple long-term solution: dedicated wartime-style research into electric power, fuel cells, solar power, wind power, hemp oil power, and all the dozens (if not hundreds) of alternate power sources which aren't being exploited. It wouldn't happen overnight. But with ten years or less of hard research into those technologies, especially if it were undertaken by many countries, it would be done.

     Not only is it just asking for trouble to rely on the Middle East for power, but there is a finite supply of oil left in the ground. Or, y'know, we could just wait another fifty or hundred years until the oil runs dry, and THEN start working on the transition while industry and the interconnected web of modern society falls around our ears. Which is probably more or less what will happen, since most people and all leaders seem to be unable to plan or consider more than five years ahead.

     Besides which, think of the panic in the hearts of all the Middle Eastern oil barons when they learn that America (and perhaps others) had begun research into making them obsolete. If Saddam's ever gonna give us a good pretext to kill Iraqis, that news would certainly push him to it.

     ::shrug:: Not strictly on the topic, but our dependence on them for oil has been a huge, treetrunk-sized thorn in our side for many decades now. Let's nip the problem at the root, hm?

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Shoot down my Arguments you may Sin, but the fact clearly remains:


1. As long as US troops are present in the Middle East we are the first choice of target by the USA.
2. We whine because we are attacked when this happens to people everywhere. Don't camp troops in the middle east, either help the people that need it or Leave completly.
3. We have Nukes, And my guess is we have Chemical bombs as well but we don't use them, why do we assume that he will? He is in the position of power to his country and abroad why senselessly throw that away with an attempt to kill Americans. S.H. is stupid and needs to change but he won't commit suicide.
4. The US is clearly strongarming the UN by threatening to act Unilaterally. An over night development Bush made a countdown to war. He is making a statment that if the UN doesnt get a tough proposal passed he will go in with out them, ALERT ALERT sin thats called strong arming. Shoot me down but go shoot this website down as well. http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Southwest/09/27/us.iraq.un.language/index.html

[?(uNt?YodaTi.Hfa]

. We have Nukes, And my guess is we have Chemical bombs as well but we don't use them, why do we assume that he will? He is in the position of power to his country and abroad why senselessly throw that away with an attempt to kill Americans.

Sure, you have nukes but he is in a different position then you are. He is a dictator and he has nothing to lose. He can probably consider that the USA will win and overthrow him. So, he has nothing to lose by nukeing us. Even if he doesn't have nukes but has Chemical weapons, they can be just as effective (VX kills in about 15 seconds from contact.) If we attack Iraq they will use any weapons they have.

Also, the only reason we care about the mid east is that they give us oil. Otherwise it is just a region where people fight.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Shoot down my Arguments you may Sin, but the fact clearly remains:


1. As long as US troops are present in the Middle East we are the first choice of target by the USA.
2. We whine because we are attacked when this happens to people everywhere. Don't camp troops in the middle east, either help the people that need it or Leave completly.
3. We have Nukes, And my guess is we have Chemical bombs as well but we don't use them, why do we assume that he will? He is in the position of power to his country and abroad why senselessly throw that away with an attempt to kill Americans. S.H. is stupid and needs to change but he won't commit suicide.
4. The US is clearly strongarming the UN by threatening to act Unilaterally. An over night development Bush made a countdown to war. He is making a statment that if the UN doesnt get a tough proposal passed he will go in with out them, ALERT ALERT sin thats called strong arming. Shoot me down but go shoot this website down as well. http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Southwest/09/27/us.iraq.un.language/index.html

1) Our own soldiers aren't the target of our own country. Now I assume that you aren't that stupid to mean that, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. We are already public enemy number 1 in the eyes of most countries in this world due to use being the only economical and militarial superpower remaining on the planet. Being the best makes you the top target, period. Look at where Al Qaeda attacked us - the symbols of American Economical and Military power, the World Trade Center, and the Pentagon. If it wasn't for the passengers on the other plane that went down, they would have attacked our political structure by hitting the U.S. Capitol building, or the White House. Point being, people hate us for being the best, and they hate us for the lifestyles that we live.

2) You have no fucking idea what happens to us if we withdraw our troops from the Middle East, do you? People like Saddam Hussein take the world hostage again by blowing up oil fields across the Middle East. The House of Saud in Saudi Arabia would fall because they would lose our physical presence to keep them proped up against terrorists and extremists. Not to mention, the new Government would shut off the Oil to the West and truely fuck us over. The World would plunge into a recession because of everyone's dependence on oil. So unless you want to pay $50.00 a gallon at the pump and $10,000 for your next Television, pulling our troops out is the worst possible scenario.

3) We don't use our WMD because we have restraint and the smarts to know what the repurcussions of using them has. He doesn't use them because he doesn't have enough to launch effectively on all of his enemies. It won't be long before he acquires the stuff needed to produce more, and possibly build a Nuclear bomb.

4) Read this article!!!

That already shows that Saddam wants to pussyfoot around under the older resolutions and play the same old shit as before. Read the title of that article a few times..."Iraq rejects U.N. Draft" He is already shooting down a U.N. resolution, and if the U.N. can't get something passed that he won't accept, what are we to do, just let him be and laugh at the world some more?


Mr. Lothario: I like your argument, and quite frankly, I agree with a lot of it.

[*DAMN Snake]

     Sin seems to be the only one to have any smarts. Saddam has chem weapons, we have proof. they are in bunkers, army trucks (constantly moving) and in some cases in civillans homes. as far as the nukes. he the equpitment to make them, hes only missing the plutonium. we expect he to get the plutonium in at least 1-2 years. hes probley building the silos right now as we speak.
   And zaitsav, in your post, #4 i quote..."The US is clearly strongarming the UN by threatening to act Unilaterally. An over night development Bush made a countdown to war. He is making a statment that if the UN doesnt get a tough proposal passed he will go in with out them, ALERT ALERT sin thats called strong arming. Shoot me down but go shoot this website down as well."

   What you people don't know is that we have the UN's go ahead. we are just waiting and gathering intell. the press and the president are running a show, so to speak. so if saddam sees the news he wont think we are going to attack... but as soon as the UN tell the public they are behind USA, expect a attack in 1 hour...
     And as far as "Don't camp troops in the middle east" what do you give a shit for? it's not you, it's me sitting here with full gear on and it's 100 or so degrees. all you people do is bitch about whats going on... but you take it for granted... you can turn on a comp, PS2, Xbox, TV, go out for a ride in a car when ever you want... sleep when ever you want and get up when you want... if you like living like that, or living at all for that matter, you should really start to think. what if saddam(hitler) gets nukes... what do you think would happen... all i have to say is history repeats it slef... saddam=hitler    nuff said...

  Listen to this "Deputy Prime Minister Tareq Aziz warned that the United States would sustain huge losses if it attacked Iraq and that his country would fight a "fierce war."" HAHAHAHA huge losses... such bs, all they have is out dated AK's and soviet tanks, and anti aircraft which only go as high as 1000 feet or so... and are F-18's can fly and drop bombs at 5000 feet... fierce war... ha! i can't wait till i go into iraq... they are saying that a squad of marines... will be killed... LOL! i doubt that will happen. anyways, thats is what my unit is packing, 6 men... 2 with M4's (one is me), 1 with a SAW, 2 others with M16's with m203's. and one marine sniper... it's a M16 with a 20 round clip with a scope, and single shot fire... anyways...  Should be called fierce running. thats what they will do is run... damn chicken shits...

[Bondo]

Loth is right on when he talks about the need to give a full effort into researching renewable energy sources.  Bush would claim that it would be bad for the economy...but you want to know what is bad for the economy?  Reliance on fossil fuels.  The key word here is sustainability.  What is sustainable is ALWAYS economically beneficial in the long run.  We need to accept that the economy won't be awesome right now but we need to put loads of money into wind, solar, hydro power plants and into fuel cells and hybrid cars.  The only way to bring the prices down on all those things is to do so with economies of scale which means investments.  Once we put this effort, the prices for these things will get insanely low and we'll think back at how stupid we were paying for oil and coal to get energy all the while polluting.  We could be rid of our dependance on foreign oil in 5-10 years if we actually bothered to.  Sadly it won't happen with a moron in the White House, which at the moment is the case.

It is my feeling that in the next few hundred years, humankind will either finally figure it out and we'll have a utopian world where everyone is happy and we don't abuse the environment...or we'll be extinct.  Right now extinction looks much more likely.

[Cossack]

Why has no one responded to my  points? What about the god damn diplomatic implecations? What about the added unstability? BTW America is in for another Vietnam sooner or later. It might not (probablly wont) be this war with Iraq, but eventually America is gonna get a knock in the face if you keep doing these military actions like Kosovo. I am in pupport of kicking Sadaam out, but by revolution not by invaison. I know it did not work right after the Gulf War. This time we should do a "Guantameno scenario" In other words do what the Bay of Pigs was ment to do but in Iraq. Start a mass revolutionary movement (the Kurds occupy Mosul right now), and then recognize this movement as the legitmante government and send troops to do a "police action" in Iraq. All politics.

[tasty]

The chief problem that I recognized when reading the majority of your previous posts was the complete lack of perspective contained in almost all of them. There are those looking at the conflict through a jingoistic military view (such as Assasin and Oso) and those looking at it through the perspective of international relations (such as Bondo and Ben). Obviously the issue isn't that simplistic or two-sided but generally the themes of this discussion revolve around those sides.

This war is proposed because Saddam won't let the UN inspectors in to look at his nukes. Why? Because the rest of the world decided that Iraq isn't allowed to have nukes. So the United States (especially since Bush took office) stockpiles arms like its 1955 and that is perfectly alright. We try to demonize his possesion of biological and chemical weapons (which hasn't been proven) as if we don't secretly develop the exact same types of weapons. Its alright for other nations to have arms too, as long as they do it in accordance with the United Nations (AKA the West). Its also acceptable for the US to attack Iraq since they have actually put up a resistance to the United States' attempted complete dominance of the world. No matter that thousands of civilians would be killed or harmed, because they're Muslims. As long as they worship Allah and not God, who cares if they die?

Obviously my sarcasm is extreme, but I believe that in global political issues people need to take a step back. People need to look at issues from not their personal point of view, not the point of view of the white house or the US, not the point of view of the UN or Western Europe, but a GLOBAL point of view. I can't stand reading the opinions of people who, however well informed and intelligent they are, still look at things from their own selfish and stagnant point of view. So when discussing arms, consider not the value of the weapons but the value of something much more important: human life. There is no reason for an attack on Iraq that supercedes the fundamental value of human lives, and there is no authority, anywhere, that can provide the US with a justification for such a barbaric act.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Tasty, read up on my post where I said a was on Iraq would save lives in the long run. Hundred's of thousands of Iraqis die each year because Saddam takes the food and money from his Oil for food medicine for himself and building his own Presidential palaces. With Saddam out, the money would be distributed for the needs of the people and life will be beter for Iraqi citizens. Like I said earlier, look towards Kurdish Iraq and how they have fared when able to sell oil openly on the global market and how their cities have done. Their mortality rates are lower, age of life higher, and quality of life is better. That is probably one thing you can count on happening in Iraq once Saddam is out of power.

As for the U.S. stockpiling arms, wtf are you smoking? We have recently been sgining arms reduction treaties with Russia (SALT, START) in hopes of reducing our arms pile. We have had no need to increase the amount of arms that we have, because as it is, we could end life on this world as we know it.

Also, the reason we don't want Saddam with WMD is because he could single handedly hold the world hostage if he treatens neighboring Saudi Arabia's oil supply or gives them to terrorist groups (Al Qaeda, HAMAS, Chechen rebels, etc.) to use against larger countries such as the United States, Russia, Great Britain, France, etc. He signed off on his right to develop these illegal[/u] weapons (yes, chem and bio warheads are illegal according to international law) when he ended the Persian Gulf War with his cease-fire agreement.

[Bondo]

As for the U.S. stockpiling arms, wtf are you smoking? We have recently been sgining arms reduction treaties with Russia (SALT, START) in hopes of reducing our arms pile. We have had no need to increase the amount of arms that we have, because as it is, we could end life on this world as we know it.

As we reduce the number of nuclear arms from the Cold War we continue to develop new weapons constantly...new chemical and biological weapons.  After all, the things like VX and Anthrax, etc that Iraq has that we consider a problem...they were created in the US first.  We have always been the innovator in new dangerous weapons but we aren't the ones using them, those that hate us are the ones who in the end will use them.

[Cossack]

Sin I agree with that post entirely, except for the fact that their lives are bad souly because of sadaam. Our Sanctions on Iraq have been a major reason why their life and their amount of food sucks. Then again, the Iraqis can thank Sadaam for that.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Our sanctions are in place because of Saddam...it all goes back to Saddam, Cossack. We have already stated that sanctions would be revoked if we had a friendly Government in power.

[Cossack]

Then again, the Iraqis can thank Sadaam for that.

You read my post?

[EUR_Zaitsev]

I disagree that people hate us because we are a superpower. I think that is totally false however the fact that we are a superpower and abuse our power is what makes people hate us. We are to ignorent to look into history mistakes (seeing as US history is whitewashed) and thus we believe we did nothing wrong in the middle east. The US trys to play the role of the picked on rich kid. Any clear seeing person, tends to be us liberals that notice,  you can always trace all hatred of the US to something wrong we did. Bush is just a codename for modern day imperialism who is seeking re-election after piggy backing into polotics on his fathers shoulders with worse grades in the same college as my very parents.

Saddam is rich and thats all that matters to him. He will sit on his riches until the day he dies and will not be ousted. The worst can happen for him is the US attacks and so he has to nuke them back and eventually he dies. the best that can happen for him is nothing and however crazy he may be I am quite certain he knows this and thus will pull for peace.

Bush says it is time for the UN to wake up but if I am not mistaken the UN stands for United Nations. And believe it or not there is an "S" on the end of that and thus the United States must stop trying to own the UN. An attack on Iraq would be asking for a 9-11 repeat.

[*DAMN Silent Killer]

all i have to say is we have to stop them NOW


9-11  =  the contry and the world is astounded by the blow to the WTC towers and others


now think what would happen if he realleses chem weapons in NY or LA think

antrax, smallpox, plague, hell he could have it all

thosands if not MILLIONS of people would die if he got a large quantity of chem

-SK

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

I disagree that people hate us because we are a superpower. I think that is totally false however the fact that we are a superpower and abuse our power is what makes people hate us. We are to ignorent to look into history mistakes (seeing as US history is whitewashed) and thus we believe we did nothing wrong in the middle east. The US trys to play the role of the picked on rich kid. Any clear seeing person, tends to be us liberals that notice,  you can always trace all hatred of the US to something wrong we did. Bush is just a codename for modern day imperialism who is seeking re-election after piggy backing into polotics on his fathers shoulders with worse grades in the same college as my very parents.

Saddam is rich and thats all that matters to him. He will sit on his riches until the day he dies and will not be ousted. The worst can happen for him is the US attacks and so he has to nuke them back and eventually he dies. the best that can happen for him is nothing and however crazy he may be I am quite certain he knows this and thus will pull for peace.

Bush says it is time for the UN to wake up but if I am not mistaken the UN stands for United Nations. And believe it or not there is an "S" on the end of that and thus the United States must stop trying to own the UN. An attack on Iraq would be asking for a 9-11 repeat.

Here is something to chew on Zaitsev, and I am curious of your response to it. If we aren't being attacked for being a superpower, why hasn't Great Britain or France been hit? Those two countries, especially Great Britain, have about as big of an interest in the Middle East as we do. The Brits have bases, troops, and weaponry in the Middle East as we do, but they weren't hit, we were. We launched some of our air incursions over Afghanistan from British air bases, including Diego Garcia. What other outstanding factor besides us being a Global superpower makes us stand out from other Western countries with similar interests in the Middle East?

As for the rest of your post, Saddam doesn't have nuclear weapons, although he is trying to get them (I wouldn't be surprised if the 33lbs or so of Uranium intercepted in Turkey was headed to Iraq). As for the whole UN, etc., look at my other posts, that pretty much sums up my position on the issue.

[Cossack]

Sin, Russians are critics of america becuase you go around acting as if you own the world. No offence, but in forign affairs America sucks. As for Britain and France, well they havent been attacked yet. To sum it up. People dont hate America just because it is a superpower. That is a immature stance to take (although it might have to do with some of the hate)