Banned... I'm perma'd

[Bondo]

Bondo, read that chat log.  Evill referred to the logs.  Seems to me that I was in the B&G a few days ago and saw you, Bondo, switch your name and icon to Evill.  And then encourage 7 or 8 others to do the same (icon and all).  

The reason you guys got banned is that you've made targets of yourselves.  You have pushed Evill and talked about him when he's not there.  Did you think that didn't count?  Did you think that the US Constitutioin applies to GameRanger (something private and from a different country)?  Bondo, don't try to be a lawyer with Evill.  Just because it's not spelled out in his TOS, doesn't mean he can't, or shouldn't ban you for something.  

It's his place, if people can't respect that, they probably deserve what they get.  I'm not saying anything personal about you guys, but many of you seem to think GR is a public service or something.  That you have rights there you don't have.  

First off, I served my time for the changing of my name and icon, I was banned for an hour...that was a seperate incident...what I am protesting is not that but the more recent one when he is upset over a clan name.  Also, I never claimed to have constitutional rights to be on GR.  I understand that we don't have any "rights", but I don't think that Evill should act like an asshole just because he can.  That is what is at issue here.

Oh and Typhy, I know I wub Ben

[Jeb]

You gave him a reason to "act like an asshole"
you get what you deserved if your banned, just like voodoo's signature...
"don't be a jive turkey so close to thanksgiving"

[Typhy]

Buccaneer, no I wasn't ban befor for this, perhaps if you would read some of my other posts regarding this subject you would see that I was warned before, and it had stoped, the Viper sent him chat logs that were old showing me saying some crap, and I guess that Evill thought that they were new, and ban me. I agree that he has the right to do that, but I'm pretty sure that if you run a hotel, you have the right to go into their room and tell them to get the fuck out of your hotel, as long as you give them their money back. Don't quote me on that 'cause I'm not sure, but I think that you can. Thats pretty much the same as Scott bannign people for no good reason, the real diffrence there is that you pay for a hotel, but not from GameRanger. You're saying that ICMP Logger is against the rules under the agreement with your ISP... Uh, no. People write simple programs that base off of the ping all of the time. The point is, that in Juneau Alaska, no one gives a shit, and in other places, people may care, but if they were to get everyone who did it, they'd have to get like 10,000 people.

-Typhy

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I don't think Evill is "acting like an asshole just because he can".  I think he's just fed up with people that do nothing but bad mouth his application and then act like a bunch of elementary school children that think they are getting away with petty little stunts (like the changing of the names).  

If he's sick of it, why shouldn't he just ban the people that piss him off?  

Let's turn it around.  If you were having a nice byob party at your parents house while they are out of town (trying to give an example people here can relate to), and some guys were goofing you, and disrespecting you, and complaining that you didn't have enough ice and shit, are you an asshole to kick them out?  Are you an asshole to ask them not to come back, after they keep pulling little crap (it doesn't matter if it's the same thing or not, everyone knows what's going on)??

No, you wouldn't be an asshole.  It was your party.  

GameRanger is Evill's party that he is kind enough to let many of us in (and sell space on the walls to the beer companies, to keep an analogy alive).  If he doesn't like the way you act, and you continue to act that way, yes, why shouldn't he boot you?

I don't think Evill is perfect.  I think there are things he could do better.  But when you guys start acting like a bunch of 3rd graders, I can't blame him for getting fed up either.

[Bondo]

Bucc, I tried to reason with Evill, I told him that Typhy had not broken his warning about acting like an Admin...he said he knew that but banned anyways...where is the justice in this...I recall the term Double Jeopardy applying to that...sure, Evill doesn't have to follow that rule but it proves that the ruling was bullshit.  Therefore Typhy's ban is not right.  Ben did even less to deserve a ban...he changed his name and got the rightful 30 min ban, but beyond that he did nothing but got a perma (or indefinate) ban anyway.

I've made this simple request to Evill, he lets Ben back, he lets Typhy back or at least sets a definate punishment of a month or two.  If he does that we shut up.  Another consideration is that he shouldn't ban for more than a week unless their is actual harm attempted to be done against the community.  Neither Typhy or Ben did this.  I made this simple request and all he says is, "Evill: There's no deal making.  All you're doing is convincing me to keep them banned longer."

I can't reason with the fool, I try to be peaceful and suggest a solution to both our problems and he won't have it...he thinks just because he can ban that he can solve his own, but he is wrong.  If he tries to handle this on his own and won't comprimise, he'll just create more problems.

As for your party analogy, the ONLY thing I've ever complained about on GR is Evill's banning.  Nothing else...all my things that you claim the host would throw me out for happened while arguing with the host to let my friends back into the party.

A better analogy for the party thing is that the host throws out members for having fun, by themselves, causing no problems to the host but just because he doesn't want to see them having fun.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I recall the term Double Jeopardy applying to that...sure, Evill doesn't have to follow that rule but it proves that the ruling was bullshit.  

Bondo, Double Jeopardy is an American concept.  It doesn't apply in many other places.  Just like "innocent until proven guilty" is the exception, not the rule.  In many of thoes countries you think are better then the USofA I believe.

I've made this simple request to Evill, he lets Ben back, he lets Typhy back or at least sets a definate punishment of a month or two.  If he does that we shut up.  Another consideration is that he shouldn't ban for more than a week unless their is actual harm attempted to be done against the community.  Neither Typhy or Ben did this.  I made this simple request and all he says is, "Evill: There's no deal making.  All you're doing is convincing me to keep them banned longer."

I can't reason with the fool, I try to be peaceful and suggest a solution to both our problems and he won't have it...he thinks just because he can ban that he can solve his own, but he is wrong.  

Maybe I found some of your problems.  First, telling him to do it or you wont shut up isn't a request.  It's a demand.  He probably doesn't respond well to them.  Second, your tone when you talk about him, there and here (all your comments, even private messages are there for him to read).  Why should he be nice or let most of these guys off with attitudes like that?  

To go back to the party analogy, if the host is in the next room, and hears you guys through the vent making fun of the house, and making fun of him, why shouldn't he kick you out?  And if their friend keeps bugging him and being an ass to get his buddy's back in, he'd get the boot from most parties I've been to.

Typhy, using a program like ICMP logger is against most ISP's TOS.  Read the fine print sometime.  They often say something like "using tools to explore, break into, read or monitor other computers or networks, without their express permission..." they go on and on.  Bottom line.  Using a tool to read IP's like ICMP logger on GameRanger is against the GR TOS, and therefore, if he reports you, against your IPS's TOS.  Don't believe me?  Grifter caught a guy port scanning (not even throwing commands at him yet, just ping and port scans) his servers.  Tracked the guy back to UNLV's system.  Called the LAN Admin there, and the guy lost his internet priv's from his dorm.  Period.  No excuses, no conversations.  They e-mailed Grifter back two days later to let him know that it was a "permaban" as it were.  Better look it up.  (Just like hosting a web site or running a Hotline / Carracho / KDX server is almost always against the rules.  They don't look for you until they have a reason.  But then they just shut you down).

Last, my statements are in general about the guys that get banned.  Not every comment is applicable to every person.  Those posts (unless noted) aren't directed at a single person, but at the group as a whole.

[Bondo]

If you open an unlocked game on GR you are giving people permission to IP join you...because that is what GR does...so they are giving permission for someone to find their IP and join...they would have no claim...as for it being against GR's ToS, it wouldn't be a problem if he didn't ban people and force them to IP join games.

[Jeb]

i talk to evill over the icmp blocking, i told him that it can't be stoped, since a ping is a direct query sent from computer A to computer B...

but if he wanted to block it he would probly add a piece to the pinging system, to ping a diff ip after it pings the host, leaving the logger with a false ip addy.

the reasoning for blocking Ip joining is because host limits and locked games are there for a reason, however it does kinda leave the bannees in between a rock and a hard place

[Typhy]

First off, the agreement with my cable company ( GCI Cable Juneau ) says nothing at all about IP loggers etc.  Second, I am pretty sure that under the laws of Western Australia, there are laws preventing Double Jeproday. Jeb, the simple fact is that while Evill may controle GameRanger, he doesn't controle Rainbow Six or Rogue Spear, and he doesn't controle wether I join games or not.

-Typhy

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Bondo, if it's against the TOS, it's against the TOS.  Blaming Evill for people breaking the TOS to get around his bans is like blaming the government for my speeding because they have too slow of limits.  It just doesn't hold water.  

Farmer and Bondo, the whole point of him banning is not to let you find a way around it, but to either promote his idea of proper behavior, or keep you off his app.  I just wonder why the banned people don't just move to MAG or another option instead of trying to work around the ban??  I mean, between MAG, IMG Chat and MacClans Chat, if it's such a pain, why bother getting back?  After all, if you are trying to teach Evill a lession (as was stated earlier in this thread), make a mass move to somewhere else.  I'm sure his advertisement dollars are based partly upon volume of people on his servers (that and click throughs).  So, hit him where it counts, if that's your goal (this is to all those that were talking about doing something).  Otherwise, you are saying that GameRanger isn't a bad place, but you guys are just spoiled and want your way about everything.  I mean, if Evill is so bad (in some of your opinions) then why not just go to one of the others?  So it's not as slick, or is it that Evill isn't really that bad?

[Bondo]

Bucc, we are hoping it won't have to come to that extreme a protest to force his hand into giving some consessions.  Like MLB though, without the players there is not community.

As for your TOS bullshit...think of it this way...murder is illegal, so say we throw two people in jail and don't feed them.  One will have to kill the other to survive thus breaking the law.  He was forced to do so by whatever law he might have broken...it is either break the law or die (stop playing)...and I'm sure MacSoft/Redstorm/UbiSoft/Aspyr would like to know that Evill is making less people play that series of games on the Mac with his treatment.

Maybe that is what we should do, instead of talking to MacSoft over RS as they've already made their money...we talk to Aspyr and tell them that they should consider that Scott is making it so less people would buy their game and give them money.

[†FiRE Infection]

I just think the bans are so unfair.  The Typhy ban was fair, if he hadn't already been banned for it!  It was an old chat log that he had already gotten in trouble for.  To bring it back up and get Typhy banned a second time is like Double Jepardy.

[KoS Ultimo]

Bondo, in the long run all your going to do is hurt the mac communty more, including Evill. Grow up and shut up.

[sw baz]

well i read everything, and as matter of fact, i impersonated first Evill, (got banned for 30 minutes), then His Momma (no ban) then even his CRACK WHORE (NO BAN!!!) so if you guys wanna crack on him, just crack on his momma like we do here in the US!!!  

[*DAMN Mauti]

I totaly agree with Ultimo - Bondo stop with it - without GameRanger I wouldn't waste my time with R6 or RS anymore I would probaly sitting in front of my TV   but well you are going to far Bondo if I'm honest you would deserve a permaban for at least 3 months. Forget your stupid revolution that makes nothing better or do you really think you can go to Aspyr complain that Evill banned 2 - 4 guys out of thousands uhu that's ridiculous.

Typhy and Ben I can understand that you want to come back to GameRanger but that's the wrong way.

End Mauti

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Well Typhy and Bondo, as for the TOS "bullshit", sorry if you don't like how life is.  I'm just stating a fact.  If you two want to hide from the way things are, go right ahead, but don't bitch about it later if it bites you in the ass.

Typhy, you can try and use the fact that it didn't list the exact tool you use as an excuse if it is ever an issue, but it wont work.  It's like with GR, it's not the letter of the law you are dealing with here.  

Bondo, you analogy is flawed.  In your example, the prison broke the law by not feeding the prisoners.  In this case, he has just banished you, or deported you.  You are still free to go other places and play the damn game.

Also, as for you telling Ubi, Apsyr or whoever, not only is it stupid, but it's weak.  Because of all this talk about IP's, it hasn't actually stoped anyone from playing the games.  Face it, it sounds much more like you are just bored and looking for some battle to fight then have an actual problem.

[Jeb]

like macsoft would give a shit about your complaints...
if they did care they woulda carbonized the most popular online videogame a long time ago,
thats what i'm glad they aren't making Ghost recon.

[Jeb]

quote from the TOS:
"Scott Kevill reserves the right to terminate or suspend your use of
GameRanger at any time, for any conduct that Scott Kevill, in his sole discretion, believes violates these Terms and Conditions of Use or that is otherwise harmful to other GameRanger users. These Terms and Conditions of Use are subject to change at any time without notice. Scott Kevill reserves the right to withdraw any functionality from GameRanger at any time without notice."

legaly this means that you don't have a fighting chance, i asked to my dad, who heads a law firm.
and yes bondo, your gonna cause more trouble to the RS community, rather than save a few users.

[(SiX)Ben]

LOL. Bondo, I actually agree with Ultimo, Buccaneer, (aka Evill) and Mauti... Forget about it. What sence is it to get banned from a gaming system because other people got banned? It's irrational and illogical... I agree with Mauti, you will get yourself banned for an extreme amount of time. Frankly Bondo, we aren't worth it.

Typhy, I agree you're punishments too big, etc... All I can say to you is WHEEEEEEEE! (No one can do anything for you or me typhy. There is no possibility of unbanning for us, besides maybe to kiss ass, which I refuse to do.)

Buccanneer, Jeb, Ultimo, Mauti, Your logic and proper grammer has me convinced, some people remain hard and unmoved. Hell, if you can convince me though, the one who was perma banned, you should be able to convince all of us. Anyway, the main thing I continue to wonder is why I have been perma banned.

Bucc, you say I continually talk about Evill behind his back? Heh, when did my life center around Evill, most of the time I don't think about him. The only time I even talked or thought about Evill is when they said "Hey, were making an MoH clan named 'Evill", when someone brought him up, or when he was in the B&G, banning people for reasons beyond my comprehension. Granted, it is his program, but the senceless act of banning against me has me stumped. Yes, this was my second ban, the first was being because someone who was banned logged onto gameranger under my account, automatically banning my computer. Not many people know that though, so I will call you Evill, as he is one of the few that do.

In closing, unless gameranger does come back, with my ban being erased, I might as well sign off this GameRanger community. It's been an honor and a pleasure playing with all of you... Except for my *NADS clan. It was so much more. Please tell people in the Rainbow 6 community I am banned. Otherwise,  they might just think me dead, and enjoy the thought.

Thank you again,
       *NADS Ben

[(SiX)Ben]

Ironic, isn't it? After I posted this, people put on "Free Ben" tags.. Evill's responce..  "Ben's ban will be extended." This is what I am talking about. Not only do I have no clue what I did in the first place, NOW my ban got extended after I told people to stop... Heh, now do I get punished for other peoples deeds or what? Please stop supporting the free Ben movement. Who knows, maybe not supporting it will allow me to get onto gameranger without 8 years instead of 12... Anyway, I should really stop posting here as I said I am retiring from gameranger until I am back up and running.  

*NADS Ben