The Upside to World War Three

[Mr. Lothario]

     World War Three may or may not be starting in the next few months. If Iran or one of Iran's tools nukes one or more Israeli cities, that will initiate what will very likely be a worldwide nuclear exchange. That will mean that WWIII and the death of a significant fraction of the world's population was directly caused by religious people. Given the not-insignificant chance of a global thermonuclear holocaust within the year, I have found one idea that gives me some hope for the future: maybe this will be enough to end religion. I envision the survivors of the initial exchange coming to realize that civilization as they know it ended in mere hours, then spending the next days and weeks watching many of their number succumb to the ravages of radiation poisoning, and coming to the realization that religious people exacted a terrible price from the entire world. Then I envision them killing any religious people who had not died in the war and its aftermath, then--assuming they live in a place where the women can bring reasonably healthy children to term--teaching the next generations to think for themselves and to have an intense distrust of anyone who tells them that life is just what you do while waiting for death and your eternal reward.

     I have maintained for years that the human race requires a true science of the mind in order to survive into the future. Psychology and psychiatry do not fit this bill, because the application of those arts does not result in a sane individual but an acceptably insane one. I think that a sane human would necessarily be governed by reason rather than emotion.

     A truly reasonable, rational human could not follow the priests of any religion currently in existence, because the promises made by those priests hinge upon emotion: the fear of death, the fear of insignificance, the fear of loneliness, the desire for power, the desire for glory, the desire for love. A sane human would see it as axiomatic that without this world, this life is not possible, and without this life, nothing is possible--and he would work in the here and now to ensure that there is a future for this world and its inhabitants.

     Contrast this to the behavior of religious people, who accept as axiomatic that this world is only a stepping-stone to the next, so that actions that directly endanger the future of this world and its inhabitants are acceptable and even glorious so long as they hasten the religous person to their eternal reward.

     The end of religion, when the human race leaves religion behind as a childhood dalliance, will be a singularity from which humanity will emerge unrecognizable to us, not least because a humanity in which every person is considering their deeds in terms of a future that stretches beyond their own lifetime is a humanity totally unknown to us.

[BFG]

The upside? Well theres a pretty blatently obvioiuse one that im surprised hasn't been commented: Q: Recently as the UN tried to pull together a call for an immediate Ceasefire to the conflict in Lebanon, which two countries prevented it? A: the USA and the UK.

Q: Which countries are busy exporting arms to Israel, which country is allowing the USA to use its airports to ferry bunker busting bombs and other armaments to Israel so that they can use them to kill yet more Lebanese civilians? (I won't mention deliberatly destroying UN watch towers) A: The USA and the UK

excuse me while i throw up again.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Thats a brilliant premise starting point for an internal debate ive had going for most of my adult life.
I have a ton of material that i want to float, and have you guys debate with me..I want Tiro in on this one as well. Poo poo religion if you must, but do it like Loth did. Back it up. Dont use a bad church experience pass for your evidence that all church is evil...think it's evil? Explain why.

Deep ass subject, so fair warning..-->Long post from Sheix headed your way.
Im excited..thanks again Loth for bringing a perfect topic, and approach.

As Relevant as it gets for today...

Im going to attack your position as hard as I can, and we'll see where we end up.
If you can convince me, Ill grant you the win. If I convince you..do the same for me.

Stay Tuned_

[c| Spetsnaz.]

I think religion as utilized in the political sense is a tool to solidify mass support. The real reasons for Israeli and US aggression in the middle east are purely tactical. Israel wants to use Lebanon as a buffer zone from Syria and southern Lebanon has significant resources of water. Also, an Israeli controlled Lebanon gives them access to northern Iraq specifically Kirkuk where vast quantities of oil are located. These are energy wars masked for purposes of popular support by religious zeal.

While nuclear war would horrible beyond all comprehension, I think it is less likely than the prospect of mass chaos caused by energy shortages. The consequences for society would be very similar minus the massive toll on infrastructure and the release of radiation.

If such a world were to come into existence, I think most people would be absolutely focused on subsistence rather than assigning blame to religion.

I think faith and religion are two separate but related entities. Faith is absolutely paramount to effectively navigating a survival situation.

Without faith in the divinity of nature, the natural order of things, in your God, you will not survive when things are the worst.

I try to be a logical thinker but I cannot deny that there are somethings that science and the human mind cannot and will not ever be able to fully comprehend without faith and spirituality.

If my worst fears are confirmed and modern life is drastically altered, I know I will have faith no matter the circumstances.

[Cell]

The upside? Well theres a pretty blatently obvioiuse one that im surprised hasn't been commented: Q: Recently as the UN tried to pull together a call for an immediate Ceasefire to the conflict in Lebanon, which two countries prevented it? A: the USA and the UK.

Q: Which countries are busy exporting arms to Israel, which country is allowing the USA to use its airports to ferry bunker busting bombs and other armaments to Israel so that they can use them to kill yet more Lebanese civilians? (I won't mention deliberatly destroying UN watch towers) A: The USA and the UK

excuse me while i throw up again.

Not that I automatically doubt you BFG, but you have some proof of this?  Maybe a link or 2?  Thanks

I try to be a logical thinker but I cannot deny that there are somethings that science and the human mind cannot and will not ever be able to fully comprehend without faith and spirituality.

I feel the same way Spetz.  As someone who endured 8 years of Catholic grammar school, and 4 years at a high school run by Marianist Brothers I came away feeling like.....hmmm WTF?!  I was blatently told in my History and Theory of the Old Testament by THe Brother teaching the course that the book of Genesis was a farse.  Stories told to teach lessons/ and evoke fear into the masses. Great.
The New Testament for the most part being a recount of Jesus' life written by his Disciples...much of it was written years after Jesus had left Earth.  Are we to believe that every word of it is accurate? Who was actually there to see the events that took place when Jesus was a child? 
THe church was also formed years after Jesus was long gone.  THe ideas of confession, mass, sacraments, rules and regulations all created by people later on.  WHo is to say that any of it is right?   I believe in personal faith, right and wrong....morality, but in no way am I going to sit and listen to someone a few thousand years later tell me how I should conduct myself according to a list of rules established by an organization that has become one of the richest most powerful bodies in the world.  How can they teach mercy to the weak & charity to the poor and then posses such wealth? Loads of hypocracy throughout the ages.  If God did put us on this planet...then how come only a few people knew about him in the beginning?  THe Chinese never believed in the same Judeao/Christian God?  People had to bring him to them.  Why not just let them know himself?  Its all part of one sick joke I guess. I agree with most of you...Religion will eventually be the downfall of the Human race. The irrationality of it is just that. Irrational. With that said... I am not here to offend anyone, everyone is entitled to thier own opinion and interpretation...this is just what I take away from it. Don't get all caught up in the details given to us by other people.  Just some of my random ramblings again.....one of these days I'll put something poiniant together, but as usual I'm throwing my 2 cents in as I sit at my desk at work.  Maybe I should get back to earning my paycheck.

[BTs_FahQ2]

Here is a bit of a problem with your rationale Loth. Most people who are not fundamentalist look to religion as more of a sense of being overall then a sense of guidance. The difference is that it gives an individual a reason to carry on with his or her life with some sparse hope that their existance has a chance for eternity. I think this is the number 1 reason religion sells. Without religion people would have to be sold on the idea that you are basically put forth her for 70 odd years, rough average, to bear children, maybe help humanity advance in a minute way, and then perish only to have your genes and efforts possibly live on.

This is really tough for a lot of normal people to swallow.  I think for the average person, religion creates a check and balance so to speak in that they don't go off on an extreme with the belief that, "hell, we all die anyway". By this i mean suicide, murder, and basically anarchy in general. Of course this is an extreme, but a large set of the less fortunate, uneducated, and lower masses think in this way. I think the #1 reason most criminals break the cycle to their ways is religion. They are sold on the benefits of it and the forgiveness it allows them.

In addition, humans would never band together to ever collectively work for the good of the whole. Research, experience, and observation have shown me that human characteristics could never allow it. No matter how destitute a situation you put them in where their last choice is to live homogenously or die, someone would always ruin it. People always have to have more, be better then someone else, and in time of need, take it from those that are weaker.

I could go on for days refuting my hope for humanity. I think ever since technology has allowed people from different beliefs to interract we have had mostly horrific results. Much like colonies of ants, or any other species on the planet, there is conflict until there is domination. At which a time of peace persists until difference arises again. Its a cycle yet to be broken and proved almost daily.

I don't think religion either hurts or helps, just accentuates. Please continue...

[~Po~ TiroFino]

Then I envision them killing any religious people who had not died in the war and its aftermath

Is this the way you want to start the New World Order? - How is that different than what has been happening thus far? Muslims kill Jews (place any two religions here) and vice versa - because they don't follow the same values, etc. Now you want to kill all of those that have a religious belief?

This is more of the same, hate - hate - hate - generating more hate - hate - hate - that will not end, and will escalate....

I commend you for offering your view of "The Solution" to the problem, though. Something I do not dare to offer, yet! Deep inside, I think humanity as it is, is fucked! And a change is long overdue and imperative. What and how, I'm not sure of....

I do believe in the existence of a Supreme Force in the in the Universe who has acted as an architect of what we know exists. I hope (have faith) that this same "being" will illuminate our minds (humans) in order for us find the right path. But in the end, it will be "our" decision, to accept this "recommendations" or not... which will eventually lead to our salvation or destruction. - Now wait, maybe Buddha, Jesus, etc. have all been these messengers, but we continue to ignore the message.... Who knew?

[Ein]

Cell, many of the questions you asked about the new testament... Can be answered in "The case for Christ." This book was written by an agnostic from an agnostic view point. The author tries to find scientific proof that Jesus even exhisted and that he was who his desciples reounted him as. He asks similar questions such as how did desciples remember things in such detail when the bible was written decades after his death.

I don't completely support religeon nor am I completely against it. I will post more on my oppinion once I'm off work and can organize and back up my thoughts a bit more. I just wanted to reply to Cell while I was thinking about it.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

The up-side to WWIII?

I rename myself Slim Pickins and get in line to ride an ICBM to Iran. </lame humor>

While I think that is one possible result of a third world war, Loth, I tend to think (note, not hope), things would go the other way.  Like Spets made note of, faith helps people get through the worst of times, and those certainly would be the worst of the worst.  In the pampered society in which we live in this day and age, it is possible for people to not worry about reprisal from their deity because they didnt worship properly, or whatnot.  With such a firm grip on our survival that we all have today, it is ok to question, to examine and ask why.  When you're hanging on to life by the skin of your teeth, the fear of crop failure, disease, etc., is a much larger threat than it is right now.  While this does not mean people who were athiest/agnostic would suddenly become religious as soon as the bombs fell, over time that would be the trend.

In addition, if you consider the proportion of religious peole to athiest/agnostics, it's something like a 1 to 10 difference, so there would be very few occurances of non-believers being the majority in a group of people who happened to survive whatever might be to come.  The argument that the religious faith people have would be so shattered they would cease to believe and seek out something else is certainly valid, however I believe there are enough religious demagogues (sp?) around, or who would become so following the events, that it would sway people back to their beliefs in religion, and again the trend would be a generational one towards further belief in religion.

While current religions might not survive a third world war, I unhappily believe -some- form of religion would.  Possibly a mutated version of one of the major religions.

Who's read 'A Canticle for Leibowitz'?

[*DAMN Hazard]

I don't think religion will die as a result of WWIII because at least 10% of the survivors will claim they survived because of their God. Relgion is a load of crap. I was forced to be a Roman Catholic, I was born into a Roman Catholic family therefore I also was RC. I didn't get a choice between all the religions it was predestined before I was even born. If I was born in a different part of the world I could have ended up practicing a dozen different religions. Then on top of that the Roman Catholic church is historicly one of the most corrupt institutions ever. Years of corruption by rich assholes who raised one son to be king and the other to be pope to assfuck the poor people into oblivion. From robbing the people blind for power to touching little boys centuries of corruption. People need to read more books and get off this bullshit.

I'm tired overtime is gay but you all get the point.

[7.Dr.Cheap Shot]

Sigh...  I sure hope this doesn't turn into God bashing.  I'm a Christian, I don't go to church nearly as much as my wife and kids do but, deep in my heart I know there is a God.  I do agree though that the churches have been, still are, and probably will allways be corrupt, shame on them. That doesn't mean God doesn't exist.  Now, even though I don't go to church as much as I think I should, I still pray to God every day. 

I'm gonna end this a lot shorter than I planned, I just wanted to ask that this doesn't start into a God bashing thead, besides, the day will come when we all find out the truth, hopefully it's what I expect...

[Ein]

I don't necessarily agree with modern religeon. Most of them, in my oppinion, have lost focus over the thousands of years of their exhistance from what they were originally created to be. A classic example would be in the middle ages, the Catholic church selling pardons which eventually caused the split off of protestants from the catholic faith.

Though I believe most religeons have become corrupt or lost focus, I still understand a certain need for them. I believe that religeon was created to instill morals in a people who would be lost without them. As Cell said, the old testament is filled with many stories that may or may not have happened. All of these stories however, have a lesson to be learned from them and should instill an idea of right and wrong as well as develop a "faith" in God and that God has our best interests at heart even theoguh trials and turmoil.

Religeon should teach morals and give "faith." I am not a religeous person bit I still have "faith" that there is some purpose to my life. As Fahq said, many people look to religeon to give their lives meaning. Depression is a widespread disease/mental handicap among the human race. Many people suffer from depression. Think if people didn't have a purpose guiding their lives such as religeon-nothing telling you that there is actually a reason to be here and live a good life. I believe clinical diagnosed depression would be far more widespread in that event. Religeon gives people a purpose for getting up in the morning day in and day out.

Besides clinical depression, religeon also helps prevent conflicts with fellow man (though it has caused many). As I said before, religeon instills morals. It keeps us from acting on our animal instincts by causing us to consider our actions befor performing them. For instance, a man might think twice about stealing or murdering if he thinks that by breaking a commandment (a law set by God) he may face eternal damnation.

Religeon is not meant to be bad. Actually, I have had close friends who have "found God" and are much better people for it. One specific friend who comes to mind is a man who though not an alchoholic or drug addict, still used them recreationally. Under the influence, he seemed to become more aggressive of a person. He moved out of state with a girlfirend of his. He returned back home alone about a year later telling me that he had been charged with domestic violence against his former girlfriend.

I am not sure what exactly happened in the year he was gone but I could only imagine. He had been put in jail for about a month while he was out of state. I think this was when he realized what he had become and decided to turn over a new leaf. He came back a changed person, religeous when before he had never even mentioned God.  He joined a church group and intently studied the bible in his free time. He now lives a lot quieter of a life. While he still indulges in recreational activities such as smkoking and drinking, he is no longer violent. He seems to have found peace through religeon.

Another example of religeon changing a friends life: I had a close friend through high school who durring his senior year developed a brain tumor. He was hospitalized for about half his senior year. He was never that religeous but gained religeon while waiting for this tumor to be removed. Religeon gave him faith that he would pull through this situation. He was operated on and is now healthy. Religeon is still a major part of his life now.

These are two examples of how Religeon can be a positive influence on people. I am not a religeous person but for some, it is a benefit and gives them stregnth or faith in their normally ordinary lives where they might not have had this support before. That is why religeon is necessary. And while I don't agree with what it has become, it will always be there tio give people something to believe will be with them in their most lonely, distressed, or troublesome times.

That concludes my pro religeon post. Stay tuned for my anti religeon post to follow soon.

[Cell]

Sigh...  I sure hope this doesn't turn into God bashing.

Cheap....I hear you....my upbringing leads me to feel some sort of guilt for even thinking the words "maybe there is no God". THe problem is usually not the message...its the people that think they should interpret for the masses.  Human distortion is the where my scepticism comes from. As a race (humanity) we are but a mere spec in time.  I believe that there is still plenty that needs to be discovered & deciphered.  I posses faith, but as the scepticle guy I wouldn't mind some scientific proof as well.   I can't help to notice that there is plenty of proof through science for most of the questions we have, and at the same time there are just some things that can't be explained.  Now it could just be that we haven't figured out the proper way to explain it through science, or we can not and will not have a way to explain it....or there is a God after all.  I try not to lose sleep over it...go about my life, loving my family and friends...trying not to be an asshole along the way.

[~Po~ TiroFino]

Years of corruption by rich assholes who raised one son to be king

I didn't get what you meant by this. Who raised who and for what? 

[7.Dr.Cheap Shot]

Well said, Cell.  I pretty much feel the same way, and like I said before, we'll all find out someday.  The thing is nobody knows if there is or there isn't a God, you just believe what you belive.  I don't think there is anything wrong with a debate on this subject, there just is no need for God bashing.  By all means though I don't have a problem with anyone bashing the HUMAN corruption by individuals or church politics.

I'm trying to insert a quote from cell but, my noob skills are getting the best of me so I'll do it the way I can.  Quote from Cell - " I posses faith, but as the scepticle guy I wouldn't mind some scientific proof as well.   I can't help to notice that there is plenty of proof through science for most of the questions we have, and at the same time there are just some things that can't be explained.  Now it could just be that we haven't figured out the proper way to explain it through science, or we can not and will not have a way to explain it....or there is a God after all."

There is this video I've had for years, I think I got it from Publishers Clearing House or somethin, anyway it's called "Are We Alone (in the universe)"  based on Zecharia Sitchin's best selling book ""Genesis Revisited".  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/6305497974/104-4834218-4985540?v=glance&n=404272
The one I have is from 1992 and the cover looks a bit different but, this is a very interesting.  It's about what this guy, Zecharia, has learned about man's quest for knowledge of the universe and his own beginnings..  I really hope that anyone interested in this topic could watch this.  I would be willing to let it make it's rounds if you can't find it though.  So if nobody else, at least you Cell, from what you said, I'm pretty sure you would really be glad you saw this one.

[~Po~ TiroFino]

A little off-topic:

I read this book called "Saved by the Light" by Dannion Brinkley, Paul Perry, and Raymond A. Moody....

To summarize, I'll just paste how amazon.com describes the book:

"On September 17,1975, after being electrocuted by a bolt of lightning, Dannion Brinkley died. When he revived twenty-eight minutes later in a morgue, he had the story of a lifetime to tell- a profoundly moving account of what happened to him during his near-death experience.
It is a tale of a dark tunnel, a crystal city, and a "cathedral of knowledge" where thirteen angels shared with him 117 revelations about the future-95 of which have already come true. Even he now possessed the ability to read minds, no one believed his story of the spiritual transformation that changed his life- except others who had died and come back. A second near-death experience reunited him with his angelic instructors. This time, they revealed that he was to use his new psychic gifts to help the dying. Since then, he has dedicated his life to working with the sick and elderly, and sharing his fantastic story with people everywhere.

Dramatic and inspiring, Saved By the Light is an exciting look at the fascinating mysteries of life and death¨

Now, if there is or isn't life after death, I cannot say... but reading this book sure was comforting, specially since I read it one week before my old man passed away, so it helped me deal with the pain of having him depart and gave me hope that he may well be in a "better place".

[Kapiti]

umm..... What does that have to do with WW3?? I'm not saying its got nothing to do with it....It's just that i dont knw wat its got to do with it. 

[~Po~ TiroFino]

umm..... What does that have to do with WW3?? I'm not saying its got nothing to do with it....It's just that i dont knw wat its got to do with it. 

If you had read my post, I did warn it was a little off topic.... 

But it has to do with the religious / faith twist many have commented on afterwards. You see, the book deals with the continuation of life after death.... so make what you want of it!

Now, stop getting more off-topic and get back to WWIII....

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Kap, its the over arching subject of spirituality, and the afterlife, and the questions about whats around the corner (with wars and death dominating the news)...and comfort when there ARE no answers..

All good Tiro.
thx for sharing

my post is coming, its just that the more i write, the more unsure i am ..each paragraph has created more questions..So im in edit hell, because as it stands right now..my post would be a bowl of spaghetti..and about two pages...  

lol

Great great posts everybody...seriously. and ty for taking it seriously.

[Ein]

I've already pointed out how religeon can be a good thing by instilling morals and giving people hope or "faith." One thing I do not like about religeon though is when people of a particular religeon try to force their beliefs on others.

This has been the cause of many past wars and I'm sure it will cause many more in the future. Egypt conquered the jews and caused them to flee to protect their religeous beliefs.  The United States was first settled by people trying to escape the religeous persecution of the British(and I know the native americans were there first and settled it first but look what happened to them because of these puritans who forced their way on them).  Once a week in Chicago, my house was visited by Jahova Witnesses trying to convince me and my family that we were going to hell.

All three of the previous examples show how one religeon tried to force their beliefs on another. If religeon is based on faith, then why try to force a faith onto someone who has faith in something else? In my oppinion this can only lead to problems in the future. Human beings have a mind that allows them to make choices and believe in whatever they believe in. I think it is just ignorant for one group to say that their beliefs are more true than this other groups beliefs especially when there is little scientific proof that supports one religeon more than another.

That is my main problem with religeon. Not that they are unsupported by actual facts... Not that many religeously active people come off as freaks.. but that these people try to push these freakish unsupported facts onto someone who may think differently is uncalled for to me. Allow people to agree or disagree without thinking they are condemned to hell for making a choice you didn't.