I'm surprised we haven't touched on this yet

[BFG]

Damn it, excellent post shiex and some painfully reveling quotes there. I woke this morning to the paper telling me that Bush has deceided to Give Israel another week to attack Hizbulla. Erm that would actually be more like "Bush has decided to give Israel another week to murder lebannese civilians. Tony Blair has reverted to his default position and stuck his head up bush's ***. These two have actually suceeded in international efforts to stop the conflict immediatly.

What astonish's me is to be quite honest how stupid Israel is being - do they honestly think that murdering Lebanese civilians will help bring security to their people? How do they think young lebanese people will feel when loved ones/friends are murdered by the Israelis? Who comes along and offers to fight your cause and defend you? Hizbulla does.

That is of course, unless Israel has other plans, and that this isn't just about security of its current territories. Or are they actually trying to get Syria/iran involved so they have an excuse (and give Bush the excuse that he is so desperate for) to attack?

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."

I found so many of those quotes really painful to read. It really shows a angle of the israeli/palastinian conflict that many people seem totally unwilling to accept.

Some of the media coverage i find pretty disgusting as well, its turning into some f*cking entertainment rather than the news. disgusting.

[Cell]

Forget Bush and Blair for a second.

Where the F is U.N. on this one?  Is it the job of the United States and G.B. to ploice the world everytime some country feels its religious destiny to fight with its enemy/neighbor?

Seriously, why do we even have things like the U.N. and N.A.T.O. if they are ineffective in time of crisis?  The U.N. led forces should already be there trying to neutralize the situation. Have U.N. negotiators been sent to the countries in question to try and extinguish the flame? In my own personal opinion, maybe some agree....the U.N. has become a joke of an organization, and a complete overhaul is needed. Please remove it and all its diplmats from NYC please!  It should be stationed in a neutral location anyway. 

If it wasn't for all the imminent nuclear threats, I would say, just let them battle it out. Winner gets Jerusalem, loser's entire country is banned to Antarctica. But seriously, Two cranky countries...similar and at the same time completely opposite schools of thought.  Does anyone truly believe that there will ever be peace between Israel and Palestine?

[BTs_FahQ2]

The U.N. is nothing more then a eunuch at an orgy. Shit, this eunuch doesn't even have a tongue. Just a useless group that talks about a perfect world that deems it useless. You can see a mini U.N. everyday at your local McDonalds or coffee shop where a group of 5 or more senior citizens gather and gab endlessly.

With the 5 permanent members and their veto powers, as well as it pretty much being divided, it is just basically useless. The U.N. can't even get itself involved in Africa half the time to just feed people, let alone go into a warzone.

[BTs_FahQ2]

just came across a good commentary

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/18/dobbs.july19/index.html

[BFG]

As i said before The United States (backed by Blair) managed to prevent International efforts (i imagine including action by the UN etc) to halt the violence.

That said i totally agree that the U.N has never seemed so weak before. Get it out the US and place it in a neautral location and stop countries like the UN and UK from having such swaying power (easier said than done i know)

That said i understand that all negotiators and UN representatives have been evacuated because of the violence. Mean while Hizbulla continues to fire rockets into Israeli territory (the vast majority  are missing targets and causing no loss of life) , and Israel continues to destroy whole villages in Lebanann.

The UN has said that it believes War Crimes could have been commited on all three sides. In Israel, in Palastine, but primarily in Lebanon.

The stories from recently evacuated Canadian British and French civilians on the news tonight left me with tears running down my face. Ones woman's words were simply that she was so relieved to have escaped Lebanon but her heart was broken for those left behind to face the brunt of the Israeli attacks. She simply asked that the international community stand in and stop israel from carrying out such atrocities (she described seeing the mangled bodies and limbs of children blown apart by an Israeli F15 that dropped bombs on a water cannel where children were playing)

The international community needs to move NOW. One suited idiot blabbed on about how nothing could happen until Hizbulla were persuaded to stop firing rockets at israel. I love this one sided blind view that ignores the fact that it is israli actions that are causing the massive loss of life of innocent civilians and escalating the prospect of more violence. As he stated Israel won't stop unless Hizbulla stops. But how on earth can anyone imagine that Hizbulla will stop when they see what Israel is doing to Lebannese civilians?

Quick last question. Israel is bombing lebanan etc because it claims Syria and Iran (and presumably Lebanan) are funding and aiding Hizbulla.

Taking that warped 'logic' would it have been permissable for the UK to bomb America because some Americans were supporting the IRA in Northan Irland? No i think not.

So many Israeli's seem to be so bundled up in their self obsessed idea of being eternally persecuted that that they are unable to accept that they are actually the ones persecuting. In fact even as this persecution continues on zionist had the audacity to claim that Israel was the one being persecuted and the one that the international community should be 'backing' .

[BFG]

 - not a half bad commentry. Just a few other things to add from before.

While i can understand governments being desperate to evacuate their civilians i wonder does it not at the same time show a sense of resignation to the violence and allowance for these war crimes to take place? The "we'll get our civilians out and then we can let the rest stew" approach is sickening. If the International Community stepped in and stopped Israel and Hizbulla now there would be no need to evacuate their own civilians.

And what about the lebanese men woman and children? who is coming to evacuate them from the israeli bombs?

- also. How exactly can Lebanon hold any force over the actions of Hizbulla when Israel is attacking and killing lebanese military personal, and all and any lebanese infrastructure they seem to find.

[Mr. Lothario]

In the City of God there will be a great thunder,
Two Brothers torn apart by Chaos,
While the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb.
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning.

Two Brothers? Some link this to the Towers and their colapse... could be anything really! But its freaky!

     "City of God" doesn't say "New York" to me. Why would a 16th-century man call New York a city of God, anyway? While reading that quatrain, it flashed into my head that he's talking about Jerusalem. "A great thunder" has few interpretations – I read it as bombing. Probably conventional, because you'd think that nukes would get a stronger description than "thunder". The rest of it is pretty standard prognostication, open to dozens of interpretations.

[BFG]

Isn't there a place for Nostradamus and a place for discussing what is actually happening? somehow feels pretty demeaning considering what is going on to be mixing the discussion of genocide and war crimes along with a 16th Centry blokes predictions of the future.

[~Po~ TiroFino]

Isn't there a place for Nostradamus and a place for discussing what is actually happening? somehow feels pretty demeaning considering what is going on to be mixing the discussion of genocide and war crimes along with a 16th Centry blokes predictions of the future.

Considering there are believers and nonbelievers as to what he predicted about what is actually happening, no, it isn't irrelevant nor demeaning to bring him into the topic.

[Mr. Lothario]

     I actually don't think much of Nostradamus. That particular quatrain caught my eye. Anything I would have said regarding the topic at hand has been said better by others in this thread, anyway.

[Cossack]

I make my appereance very rarely in these forums, but I will speak about this frankly. Every day it gets closer and with these recent events I am convinced that I should return to Russian sooner than usual. You think Chavez is insane? Through all your bullshit propaganda, lets review the facts. To assume the election in Mexico was a valid election is just stupid. US wants no Chavez on their border and I would not be suprised if their hand was involved in heavily defrauding the Mexican people of their rightful leader.

I have reason to be angry because you Americans are stealing our land in a very indirect way. You implant democratic regimes in the Ukraine that are an absolute joke and are nothing but your handpuppets. The Ukraine is the fucking birth place of our NATION! If Ukraine is independent from Moscow, than so should Philadelphia from the rest of the United States! You try to encircle us militarily via Afghanistan, Iraq, Georgia, and suprise Iran is your next target. How many sovreign nations has Iran and Venezuela invaded compared to the United States? How many puppet regimes are put in place by Persian, Russian, and Chinese intel agencies? You Westerners and your Israeli whores are the real threat to world peace, I as a Russian, and my very progressive Persian friends, all we want to do is maintain our cultural identity and our political and territorial integrity, you people want to destroy us because of it. One of my dreams is to see the Ukraine reunited with Russia and Belarus so that the Russian people can finally be a united nationstate. If that needs to in the end be done by military force, than so be it!

If I were Chavez, I would prepare for that stuff too. Mind you, there has already been a failed CIA coup against Chavez before, however it was put down by popular resistance. Why should he be giving the United States complete knowledge of him military? By the way, the planes sold to him were not the obsolete MIG 29 Fulcrums but the much more reliable Sukhoi 30 aircraft.

I dont want there to be a war, but if you Westerners attack Iran, I know then there is a possibility that I will be seeing you on the other side of the battlefield. I keep saying it and you keep calling me a nutjob. However, every day with things like Lebanon happening, my prediction gets closer while yours becomes more of a fantasy.

From Russia with Love.

[~Po~ TiroFino]

I love giving conversations a twist from the ordinary. Bringing quotes from the Bible and Nostradamus into play are just a way to go into a tangent from what is a sad topic in human history. Note I never say I believe in Nostradamus, I merely present the quotes and works from people that have studied him over the years to illustrate a believe of a strong side of society which does think he is a prophet.

Being a lawyer by profession and a teacher by desire, I will now offer a different angle on the current situation. This one is more to my liking, since it reflects facts, history accounts and the undeniable truth of our existence in this world... we humans do not know how to get along with each other, and we bring upon ourselves many fountains of distasteful controversies, and enigmatic conflicts which will never bring about peace, for the only way to achieve a long lasting peace is by LOVING each other as family, as brothers.... and that is just not in our DNA!  John Lennon wrote a song about Love... and no frontiers.... and all he got was death... there lies the truth of humanity!

Now, to proceed with the current conflict, I warn as did Sheixhundt, who I don’t know but have grown to respect through this forum, this will be long, excuse me ahead of time, but I hope to make it worth it:

I have tried to summarize the historical events leading up to “Current Status”. Forgive my English, and the use of terms I have learned only to use in Spanish.

Ronald Reagan said that in the Middle East “hatred has roots so deep, they go to the very dawn of history”. A quick revision on the conflict that has just burst, could easily take us to the times of the “exodus”, when 1,200 years before Christ, we find the Hebrews running away from Egypt, guided by Moses. After dwelling 40 years through the Sinai Desert, they reach Canaan, the Promised Land, where they confront the fillisters in a must war as it is defined in the book of “Numbers” which would last over 2 centuries.

One thousand years before Christ, David conquers Jerusalem and establishes his kingdom. His son, Salomon, builds a Temple in the place where, almost one thousand years before, Abraham wanted to sacrifice his son Isaac in order to demonstrate his fidelity to God. Nonetheless, according to Islamic tradition, the sacrifice was going to be on his other son, Ishmael, from where Arabs descend. After Solomon’s death, that kingdom is split into two States, which are devastated in the following millennium by the Assyrians and Babylonians, and controlled by the Persians, Macedonians, ptolomeans, and selucians. A century and a half before Christ, Simon reestablishes Israel’s independence, which they lose once again to the Romans in the year 63 B.C.

In the first century of the Christian Era, the Romans destroy the Temple of Salomon and expel the Jews, initiating turmoil which would last almost 2 thousand years, and which ends temporarily after WWII, when the 14th of may of 1948, the United nations proclaims the creation of the new State of Israel.

That region is considered holly land by three great monotheistic religions of the world: Hebrews, Christianity, and Islam, whom all have in common the same root, Abraham. There, in Jerusalem, were there once stood the great temple of Salomon, at a very short distance, Christ was crucified.

Toward the year 630 of our time, the archangel St. Gabriel, appears before Mohammad, and reveals to him a new religion. Riding on his “buraq” (beast that existed in Paradise), the Prophet flies from The Mecca to Jerusalem, landing in the place where there once stood the temple of Salomon. From there, Mohammad has his encounter with God, or ALA.

Jerusalem in conquered by Caliph Umar toward the year 630. Their inhabitants are converted to Islam. They construct the Dome of the Rock, in the same place where there once stood the Temple of Salomon. The Dome hosts the “rock” where Abraham was going to sacrifice his son.

Of the Temple of Salomon all that is left is the Wall of lamentation, which is the most sacred Jewish spot in the planet. On top of the Wall, there still lies the Dome of the Rock, beloved and holly to Islam, and not too far from them two, you find the Church worshipped by all of Christianity.

The Christians started the crusades the year 1095 in order to gain back their holly places from Islamic domination. These were centuries of bloody wars.

During many centuries, the Ottoman Empire dominated most of the lands, until the end of WWI, when they were passed on to the dominion of the French and the British. But after WWII, the UN decided to create the State of Israel, the same way they created the Palestine. But guess what, and here is were the new conflicts has its roots, the Palestine people did not accept the territories given, because they wanted more. Even Jerusalem. Israel was not going to give Jerusalem to them….

In 1948 the Independence War of Israel breaks out. Six Arab nations attack the newly created country of Israel. That of course would not be the last conflict.  The Suez War in 1956, The 6 Days War in 1967, and the Yom Kippur War in 1973 followed it.

In 1970, after an assassination attempt on the life of King Hussein of Jordan, the Palestinian people were expelled from Jordan. They had gotten there seeking shelter from Israel after they had tried to destroy it in 1948.

The Palestinians fled to Lebanon, from where the Organization to Free Palestine launches frequent attacks on Israel. The Christians of Lebanon oppose such guerrilla actions on Israel, and a Civil War breaks out in Lebanon in which Syria intervenes in 1976.  The Jewish forces, headed by Ariel Sharon, penetrate Lebanon in 1982, surround Beirut, and confront the Syrian armies.

A Multinational Force from the UN, made up of troops from USA, France, and Italy, lands on Lebanon to try to bring about peace to the conflict. In 1983, over 240 American and 40 French soldiers died in a terrorist suicide attack perpetrated by the Palestinian terrorists.

In 1983, the Jews withdrew from Lebanon, and the Syrian troops did the same in 2005.

But yet a new conflict has burst in the region. This one could easily spread over to Syrian this time. If that occurs, Iran, and president Ahmadinejad who heads the radical Islamic Government, says it will intervene. And as if this were not enough, declares that they have to erase Israel from the map.

After 2000 years of seeking a home, the Jews will not give up an inch of territory. They have the armament to withstand anything. In the mean while, the Persian Gulf, with all of its riches in oil, could be involved in the upcoming war.

The weight of history is undeniable. Could this be the very beginning of WWIII?

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Dont spam our thread with that Russian Bullshit..save it for a Russian thread.

Please stay on Topic. this is not an eastern Asiatic political conference nor is it a quorum on south american politics. feel like discussing those topics..break out a thread..The subject will be handled respectfully there...unless oh you start the american bashing shit up. Its almost as though you dont really read the posts, becuase you are puposefully bashing people who have ALREADY stated their dissatisfaction with the administration, so addditionally insulting us and our Americanhood is childish..and uncalled for.

We're talking about Isreal Pounding the shit out of the infrastructure in Lebanon and Gaza to Punish the Palestinians for voting for Hamas, on the one hand (while publically CLAIMING that its all about Hezbollah, which has NOT A FUCKING THING TO DO with Brigade actions/kidnapping in gaza) The kidnapping of that ONE soldier came in retaliation for Shelling an ENTIRE family to death on the beach while at a picnic without admitting any responsibility whatsoever, and the continued detention of 1200 women and children WHO HAVE NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH A CRIME (of 2200 total detainees) .  This thread is about Isreali brutality...so im not sure who the fuck youre yelling at about us coddling Isreal. think we dont KNOW that already?

Isreal likes to lump its enemies and their motivations into an indeciferable clusterfuck so that they can confuse the issues beyond untangling..like linking some disaffected militant group in Gaza, with Hezbollah in Lebanon, with Syria, and Iran..i mean really wtf is that shit? Matter of fact, if Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah were factions in the same country It would be allout civil war...This 'brotherhood with the palestinians' talk is for the mental relief of the Lebanese parliment and to prevent Lebanese action from removing Hez from lebanon's comfortable suburbs....(who moved into the region to ostensibly protect the lebanese from the isrealis in the FIRST fucking place....)

Now on to your thoughts and references...

Im glad to see that your education in america has convinced you that Uniting countries that unanimously WANT and DESIRE to be independant with FORCE is OK..(but thats not Hypocritical or Overtly Nationalistic is any way now is it?) Im sure the dead ukranians and georgians would thank you for your progressively enlightened thought processes, however.

Sounds like youve forgotten the value of a Dual Citizenship in a democracy..and if you're so upset..renounce it (which is entrirely within your rights) and go to Russia. As long as Ive known you, you sound and act as American as the rest of us. And Im aware as anyone that America (good or bad) IS a melting pot which readily absorbs ungrateful foreigners (how selfish of us), who pretend some sort of superiority (after having parents who emigrated here for some obvious beneficial terms), while reaping the benefits of free speech and freedom of association, a progressive political education, and other such non tangible benefits..all the while talking out of their ass about how shitty it is to be here and how shitty Americans are WHILE being American yourslef.. Hate yourself if you want..thats not on me, but please realize how ridiculous thats going to sound to the rest of us..because youre being ridiculous.

 But dont be so crass as to sit and spit that hatred at me as an american, while youre as american as I am..although its become obvious were using two entirely different thought processes here. Id like to see you as a Russian Citizen in the late 70s or early 80's standing in the Red Square screaming about your resentment of your national political processes...hatred of your leaders, etc... Can you say "a VERY fucking cold Cossack", who wont be playing any video games any time soon becuase he'll be too busy splitting rocks and digging tundra for some cross siberian hiway?

**CRITICAL***

Now I want you to read the following so youre DAMN clear on what im pissed about now.. becuase the tendency will be puff up against what im saying here..as it is absolutely a shot back in your direction..
I dont mind your opinions about our administration, or its influence in the world Not ONE LITTLE BIT, because thats one of your Shitty Rights as a Shitty american, but you can FUCKING bet I resent that "YOU Americans" Bullshit. Get real Coss, youre an american and youre as powerless as the REST of us to do a fucking thing about it at the moment until the next election... dont attempt to distance yourself...youre right in the mix buddy, as an american. Dont like it, stick around and vote..or again, renounce. Dont just stand on the sidelines enjoying your citizenship while screaming at me..I wont buy it.

I steadfastly reject an assertion of 'You Americans' as though youve been standing outside observing it all..it is WE Americans, just to set your record straight, Coss..check your citizenship papers if you doubt that.

Things are so shitty here? Then why did your parent (i realize only one did by marriage, correct?) immigrate here? Think that furniture restoration business would thrive in post communist, economically depressed Russia? Think again. Youd be paying out the ASS to local officials, graft for allowing your business to continue AS WELL AS likely paying local Mafia figures protection money to prevent their undue influence, and to perhaps prevent kidnappings of your family members if by chance that furniture restoration business started becoming publicly recognized as profitable.. It's widely known and corroborated that American investments began curtailing the MINUTE they realized how corrupt the Russian business model is, and you can deny it to the forum for the sake of defence of 'mother russia', but i'm a hundred percent right on that one (you see, I read more than CNN and FOX news), and youre welcome to attempt to tell me its all bullshit... But you wont have the chance to convince me that the Russian Business model is superior to ours..becuase its NOT. sorry.

As for the Ukrainian issue, you're giving the United States too much credit. If Ukranians were so thorughly appreciative of Moscow and its heavy handed political tactics-such as withholding much needed gas/propane during the coldest winter months to make political points (which im sure you find superior to american politics) why exactly is it that they expressed the desire to be independant in the first place? You think our CIA is so efficient as to brainwash ALL those eastern European countries into believeing incorrectly and without basis in fact that the former USSR was a stagnating entity with more regard to Corruption, Nepotism and Mafia influence? No, they believe it becuase its true, and THAT my friend is the source of their dissatisfaction..but you go ahead and take em all back by force..thats what blind nationalists do, with NO regard to the will of the populace. Again, political enlightenment in action.

As for the Mexican elections..absolutely there was fraud, but Ill tell you something about mexican politics..it is fed by local sources of corrution, and NO Cia effort is going to penetrate the anti-gringo sentiment that pervades mexican politics. That comes from graft of the local politcal seats, wishing to influence the elections themselves, and garnering hopeful political rewards for themselves and family members.. Pay a vote handler a thousand dollars to disappear a box of ballots, regardless of his true affiliation, and guess what? That box disappears. There is no overarching american Vote conspiracy... they werent using diebold machines, and they didnt have a complicit Supreme Court. They had a handful of cash, and some guys who were willing to trash paper ballots to line his own pockets and feed his family a little bit better. Much as you may not like it, Mexican politics is JUST that simple.

And as to your question about how many nations Iran has invaded? In all those history lessons, you never read up on the persian empire? Maybe you got screwed on your education. Theirs is one of the most bloody histories in the entire Islamic world.

As youll not, in the case youre actually reading these posts..find me calling out for war against any of those countries..I dont appreciate being treated as though i were.. Thats rude, inconsiderate and again WAY out of line considering my and other americans expressions of regret about how our adminstration coddles isreal, and handles its foreigh policy. No, I personally dont want a war, no I dont want to fight iran, or Russia or China... no i dont support much of what our administration has done, but FUCK all if Im going to stand here as a citizen and scream at people about how bad THEIR america is, while we're all in the same boat...as Americans.

And Coss, ive loved ya bro, but on this one, just remember that it was YOU who came in swinging..Offtopic and on shakey footing.

And for Tiro...it was fine to hear your thoughts on Nostradamus, and your last post was great..thanks a lot (to all of you) for contributing ..i truly enjoy/require all this interaction with other people that are well read and educated..

[Cell]

Sounds like youve forgotten the value of a Dual Citizenship in a democracy..and if you're so upset..renounce it (which is entrirely within your rights) and go to Russia. As long as Ive known you, you sound and act as American as the rest of us. And Im aware as anyone that America (good or bad) IS a melting pot which readily absorbs ungrateful foreigners (how selfish of us), who pretend some sort of superiority (after having parents who emigrated here for some obvious beneficial terms), while reaping the benefits of free speech and freedom of association, a progressive political education, and other such non tangible benefits..all the while talking out of their ass about how shitty it is to be here and how shitty Americans are WHILE being American yourslef.. Hate yourself if you want..thats not on me, but please realize how ridiculous thats going to sound to the rest of us..because youre being ridiculous.

Seriously....if you've been paying your taxes correctly all year, you'll get a refund check ...use the money to buy a one way ticket out of here.

Vote
Sheixhundt 2008.

[~Po~ TiroFino]

however it was put down by popular resistance.

No, it wasn't popular resistance that got Chavez back into power, it was an Army General by the name of General Raul Baduel. He was one of the officers who rose up against the short-lived Carmona government during the April 2002 attempted coup. At the time, he was chief of the 42nd Airborne Brigade of paratroopers.
Baduel helped organise the operation that rescued Mr Chavez from prison on the Caribbean island of La Orchila. He was subsequently promoted to Commander of the 4th Armoured Division (Maracay), giving him control of the central-southern area of the country.
Critics say the general is one of three officers "co-governing" Venezuela with the president.
His cousin, Army Colonel Jose Ricardo Bozza Baduel, is one of 135 dissident officers who declared themselves in "legitimate disobedience" in October 2002.
The colonel says he does not share General Baduel's "Castro-communist sympathies".
He has called on the nation "not to be fooled by those who have a vested interest in maintaining the current corrupt Chavez government".

US wants no Chavez on their border and I would not be suprised if their hand was involved in heavily defrauding the Mexican people of their rightful leader.

You also talk about defrauding, and rightful leaders, while you ignore that Chavez himself has managed to stay in power by committing technologycal fraud on the referendum that took place to get him out of power. Here is the Fraud Proof which has not been recognized by the government.

Also, Read This
to see why Chavez is a threat to true democracy.

[*Lob]

Nostradamus mentioned that this thread would occur.

[BFG]

We're talking about Isreal Pounding the shit out of the infrastructure in Lebanon and Gaza to Punish the Palestinians for voting for Hamas, on the one hand (while publically CLAIMING that its all about Hezbollah, which has NOT A FUCKING THING TO DO with Brigade actions/kidnapping in gaza) The kidnapping of that ONE soldier came in retaliation for Shelling an ENTIRE family to death on the beach while at a picnic without admitting any responsibility whatsoever, and the continued detention of 1200 women and children WHO HAVE NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH A CRIME (of 2200 total detainees) .  This thread is about Isreali brutality...so im not sure who the fuck youre yelling at about us coddling Isreal. think we dont KNOW that already?

And so it goes on, Israel continue to decimate towns and villages in Lebanon, without check from the International community thanks to the despicable actions of the US and UK governments.

And while the worlds media focus on the decimation and genocide of Lebanon and its people Israel is doing much the same quietly in Palestine - hundreds killed in unchecked assaults into Palestinian land, with houses and farmland systematically destroyed.

When oh when will people stand up to the Israeli government and its supporters and when will they realize that this is 2006 and Israel is not the poor helpless persecuted, but a persecuting military might with it seems no value of any human life outside of its (illegal) borders.

[Cossack]

To Shei, I already am no longer an American citizen and I am already packing my bags up to go back to Petersburg and the Army. I am not one of those people who says something and doesn't follow through.
Everyone says something and nothing. Dont yell at me for talking about Chavez, talk to the other guy who talked about it first, I am just responding.

About mobs and stuff, yes I agree completley. That is why I whole heartedly agree to their destruction. About having my nation broken up into mini-states, I dont see why we just have to lie down and take it. I apologize for lumping you with US government, next time I will say Western Governments, American Governments, and Israeli government. I know my ideas are not enlightened, but fuck it, who cares. Its very simple, why should we allow ourselves to be carved into tiny mini-states. Also, take a look at the Ukraine now, and you will see many are calling for reunification with Moscow after going through with Yushchenko.

It is unfair to compare the 3000 years of Persian history to the 230 years of American history. I should have said within the latter half of the twentieth century. Yes I admit, the Persians invaded the Greeks in 300s BC, the sultanate of Herat in the nineteenth century etc etc etc.

Yes, parents came over here after fall of USSR and rise of Yeltsin, now my father is wanting to go back now that mob presence is greatly reduced. We are all going back. Again, words and actions.

Now on to Israel, who the hell do they think they are. They talk about world peace and unification of all nations and in the same breath they talk about ethnically cleansing the entire middle east. They take in international criminals and mobsters and give them amnesty from interpol, an orginzation of which they are supposedly apart of? Israel is also the country with the highest amount of assasinations of foreign individuals on foreign territory in the world. If Sadaam was bad, they too need to be taken out. Why should Olmert be any different?

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

For the record, i didnt mind about your mention of Chavez...not at all, just that you were incorrect that america was somehow to blame for the corruption in mexican politics.

I greatly respect your commitment of following through on your beliefs...in sincereity i do..

But no one 'carved' your country into states..they all seceeded..willingly.
As for Yuschenko...Progressive politician punished BY POISONING, for having views that didnt exalt Mother Russia and all that reunification nonsense. (And again the only thing that made it nonsense was that THEY, THE PEOPLE wanted the freedom-it was not imposed upon them from the west.) Yes ive heard of similar desires to reunify, but dont think that its not as much out of a sense of fear of Putin, as it is a reunification desire. They saw what could be done to their leders if they strayed..and then being punished by cutting of gas. (and yes, i realize they may have been stealing or siphoning excess capacity, which i dont condone)..but the Punishemnt phase of nationalism has them all scared...even Gorbachev..

And dont think that as that nationalism raises it's ugly head that Russia will not be at the mercy of the cosmic forces of ideological purging... You mention it yourself in an indirect way (unification by force not being such a foreign an unappelaing ideal after all)..and Yuschenko was but one teeny tiny example of what can happen to Modern progressive thinkers in a state thats only two generations removed from Stalin and his slaughter since we are referring only to latter 20th century leaders (whose crimes make hitlers look like patty cakes). That tendency to fold under an agressive charismatic leader, or bow in fear of him is not removed from the hearts of the Russians..its ingrained. If its happening here today, it can and will happen there tomorrow.

Kinda spooky that you would tout your unenlightened thinking as any sort of good thing. It puts you right into the same boat as the american Extremists you have grown to hate..just in another geographical region.  Trust me, the subjects of your reunification violence will not appreciate the purity of your thinking..not one bit..and peace will not come after such a move..

Your views are more evidence that as we move on in years, that peace is further and further away..everyone is so angry about everything else ( and despite their assignations of blame, america is not the cause of it all-just the butt of it) that they are sacrificing their ideals of peace happiness, freedoms, and democracy for the unity and safety of militarism..EVERYONE. And its global..and its unstoppable.

I find it unusual that during Iraq, and afghanistan, people were asking who we thought we were policing the world, but now when Isreal acts up, those same people are asking why we arent policing Isreal..sorta hypocritically ODD if you ask me...

See you on the front i guess...sigh.

I bet your gonna just love your Russian Bootcamp..you have an UGLY surprise waiting.
Being an ex westerner is going to paint a target on you bigger than St Peters  square.

good luck bro..and again, sincere respect for following though on your beliefs..
And pardon the inherent anger in my earlier post...im defensive right now, as we all are.
No harm No Foul?

[Cossack]

I am trying to stay on subject with Lebanon.

I'll just say that Yushchenko is no mickey mouse. The man is a product of the mafiosos, dont think Tymoshenko is some great person either, she is just another oligarch. The difference between US nationalists and Russian patriots is that our goals are aimed in a domestic sense rather than an international sense. BTW, there was no referendum passed on the dissolution of the Soviet Union, ever. Not by Ukranians, Russians, or Byelorussians. As for the Army thing, I know what its like because I went to a military high school over there.  That is enough on that because as you said before, "Lets not get off topic."

On to Israel / Lebanon. People wonder why extremists pop up, this is the reason! If you want to bring peace to the middle east start on this. The Syrian Ambassador to the United States said it best on Jim Leher in that you cannot talk about Peace in the Middle East without the existence of a Palestinian State. On that subject, Hamas has said it will grant reciprical recognition. Meaning, that if they recognize a Palestinian state, Hamas will in turn recognize Israel's right to exist. Israel turned this down.

I myself dont value peace as much as I value true freedom. I am sure many of the bombed out Palestinians and Lebanese are the same way. If I were a Palestinian, I too would be a member of Hamas. If I were a Shiite in Beirut, I too would be a member of Hezbollah. People talk of peace at tables and nothing comes of it, you know why? Because people like me dont just want to lay down and die while other people roll over them in tanks. American forefather patriots were the same way. Remember New Hampshire's motto, "Live Free or Die!"

As for the pretext, I do not beleive for one second that the kidnapping of these two soldiers has anything to do with their real aims of attacking Lebanon. They are just looking for an excuse to pull something off. You know how crazy these Israeli's are. It is not hard to beleive that they want a Jewish Empire stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates. Infact, I think there is a quote about that somewhere.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/247

As for a theme that comes up no matter what conflict you are talking about, and that is the theme of nationalism. In and of itself, nationalism is a good thing. Not fighting and not caring about your nation is just as destructive as being a warmonger and invading your neighbors. People laud Bismarck, and Guissepe Garibaldi as enlightened people of history. They united their nations into a singular state and did it by force if neccesary. Why should a similar figure in the Arab world, in Russia, or any other fractured nation not be treated with the same amount of respect? Nationalism can of course be taken to far. Such examples are known to everyone as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Infact, any political theorem can be taken too far. We've seen capitalism taken too far, we've seen Communism taken too far, we've seen every socio-economic policy taken to far and to disasterous consequences. Nowadays, its Zionism being taken too far, and that is what Israel is proving to the world, they themselves are the world's modern day nazis.