Relations with China..a new page

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Capitalism requires a layer of undertrodden to operate effectively or else wages rise too quickly.

And we arent trying to help them.
We are tying to ensure that they have a healthy supply of undertrodden too, evidently.

Healthy Happy Labor makes for demanding, aggressive, and violent labor.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

We would have gotten our ass handed to us if we had invaded China during the Korean War. They pushed us back all the way to the 38th parallel. Not only that, but Mao was more than happy to use nukes. He knew that he had more of a population, therefore, when MAD came along, he would be more likely to come out on top. He was willing to sacrifice millions of his citizens and endure a nuclear war. Crazy fucker.

Hate to correct your history here, but I feel I must...

1.  We could have taken China at that time...it would have simply required mobilizing our immense reserves the way we did during WWII.

2.  China did not push us "all the way to the 38th parallel...they pushed us far further south than that, retaking Seoul in the process!

3.  Mao did not have nukes at that time, so he could not have been "more than happy to use nukes". [China did not explode its first atomic bomb until October 16, 1964...about 11 years after the Korean War ended]

Now then, go back to history class and try again.   

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.[/size]

[Macuber]

Gen William C. Westmoreland said: "The military don't start wars. Politicians start wars."

So GS.. is that the "Politician" or "Military Historian" coming out of you?

[BTs_FahQ2]

Erm, does anyone here realize we need china and russian to force Iran into submission.  This was the point of all this. We are playing the world politics game. You snooze one when you need em, you crap on their lawn when you don't.  Guess it comes down to which enemy you feel is the lesser evil. Right now i have to agree Iran is the larger threat. Without china most of our manufactured goods go bye bye and we lose a lot of american money and interests.  You have to look at the bigger picture. China and the US both need each other eventhough china is looking to be the next superpower to face off against the US.

[spike]

Hrm, sry Ghost looks like I'm a little shakey. The nukes thing is true, I just must have gotten the dates wrong.

[jerkasaur]

How did this thread turn from another case of Bush being a dumbass to talk about invading China?

[spike]

dont the two go hand in hand?

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Well, GS dumped the 'invading china' line into this, when really, i was just pointing out the coming 'awkward' geopolitical moments over Hu's treatment.

Im surprised at two more items..

No one so much as flinched over the fact that russia Flew a FLEET of advanced longe Range Bombers without so much as a Radar Blip from McMurdo or Norad over Alaska....for SIX HOURS.

Also telling is GS completely ignoring the issue of the Thirteen Generals standing up to the presidents approach to IRAQ and IRAN on Moral and Legal grounds. Are they Traitors, Liberals, Satanists or Heros?

I need to know where he stands when faced with such a huge dilemma.
The military trains to respond to orders from the Commander in Chief, and Bush being a Christian and all, GS is likely to defend his actions as beyond reproach on those grounds, BUT....what about when a unified team of Military Heros and Professionals trained and minded like him (who practically RAN the military during his time of service), stands up, at risk to career and Pension to object to a Commanders' execution of foreigh policy.

Is he with the Generals or the President?

Is a civilian (Rumsfeld) MORE qualified to make battlefield calculations than GS's former military leadership...(Zinni and Franks are counted among the 13)

I can see where (as a Rabid, Nuke the stupid fuckers, type of Christian) he would make the case that since Bush has been told by GOD to push ahead with both maneuvers; Logical, Legal and humanitarian objections to these actions would be Satanic in nature.

Stand Up...Clarify.

["Sixhits"]

Hate to correct your history here, but I feel I must...

1.  We could have taken China at that time...it would have simply required mobilizing our immense reserves the way we did during WWII.[/size]

Simple, huh? 

2.  China did not push us "all the way to the 38th parallel...they pushed us far further south than that, retaking Seoul in the process![/size]

True.

3.  Mao did not have nukes at that time, so he could not have been "more than happy to use nukes". [China did not explode its first atomic bomb until October 16, 1964...about 11 years after the Korean War ended][/size]

Mao did not have nukes but his patron state Russia did.  You are ignoring what a Russian response to a US nuclear attack and invasion of China would have been. 

Finally, you do know better.  Invading China was certainly within our ability.  What, then, where the objectives?  Regime change?  "Liberation" of the people (who's civil war enemies were were alied with)?  To occupy the coasts?  In the end, no matter what our objectives would have been they would have failed.  The US lacks the will for wars of aggression.  It's manpower is not endless.  And our technological lead was slimmer in the 50's than it is today.  Invading China is one hell of a fool's wet dream. 



She, got a link to that russian flight story?

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Here is the setup to it. they have been probing for some time.
We did an intercept as read here in 99 and again in August of '01.

http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=22&&issue_id=1622

And the reference to the actual flight is dated the 24th.
There was a more detailed press statement by a Russian General Igor Khvorov that claimed that the bombers not only navigated the Arctic Straight but flew bombing patterns at 40,000 feet over land.
The detailed article was posted on Pravda on the 23, but appears to have been removed.
These are all that i could dig up on short notice.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2006/russia-060422-rianovosti01.htm

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060422/46792049.html

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Mao did not have nukes but his patron state Russia did.  You are ignoring what a Russian response to a US nuclear attack and invasion of China would have been. 

Although it is true that Russia had already detonated a nuke by that time (they exploded their first one on August 24, 1949), they certainly didn't have the ability to wage a nuclear war at the time that the Chinese crossed into Korea and pushed the U.N. Forces back south of the 38th Parallel.

Score another for the guy with the degree in history.[/size] 

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Slam dunking the simplest, Most Off-Topic issue in my thread and bypassing all the tricky ones is not considered a score.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Slam dunking the simplest, Most Off-Topic issue in my thread and bypassing all the tricky ones is not considered a score.

Oh, I don't care much for the general discussion...I don't think we should have invited the Chinese idiot here in the first place.  But I feel it my duty to correct historical innacuracies in posts wherever I find them.[/size] 

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Sorry you werent up to the challenge of simply stating your opinion on a tricky issue.

And that kids, is why Neocons cant debate their way out of a wet paper bag...or Won't.
They get trapped in there gettin their asses kicked with all the sticky details..and facts and shit.
Throw 'em a moral curveball, and they freeze...despite their big ole christian hearts...

Take it as SOLID proof that even THEY cant defend the ideals they are bashing you over the heads with.

....and thats coming from a republican.

["Sixhits"]

I guess trading Europe for taking a bite out of China seems worth it to Ghost.

If only we could nuke all our enemies, eh?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Sorry you werent up to the challenge of simply stating your opinion on a tricky issue.

And that kids, is why Neocons cant debate their way out of a wet paper bag...or Won't.
They get trapped in there gettin their asses kicked with all the sticky details..and facts and shit.
Throw 'em a moral curveball, and they freeze...despite their big ole christian hearts...

Take it as SOLID proof that even THEY cant defend the ideals they are bashing you over the heads with.

....and thats coming from a republican.

Oh, you didn't see where I wrote this:?[/size]

Personally, as soon as that Chinese idiot started talking about how Taiwan would never get its independence and how China would unite the island back with mainland China, we should have booted his ass out of the United States.  I can't believe Bush just stood their while he talked that shit.  I would have knocked him out and created an international incident.[/size]

THAT is my opinion...we should not tolerate someone coming in this country who advocates torture and murder in his own country, plus the abolishment of neighboring countries.  That's just how I feel, sorry.

Personally, I think that the way he was treated while he was here was done ON PURPOSE, in order to make him lose face.[/size] 

[jerkasaur]

THAT is my opinion...we should not tolerate someone coming in this country who advocates torture and murder in his own country, plus the abolishment of neighboring countries.  That's just how I feel, sorry.

But President Bush and the CIA not only advocating torture of our own and foreign citizens, but re-defining the definition of torture and actively engaging in it is alright in your view?

Fucking hipocritical bullshit.

[Macuber]

THAT is my opinion...we should not tolerate someone coming in this country who advocates torture and murder in his own country, plus the abolishment of neighboring countries.  That's just how I feel, sorry.

Personally, I think that the way he was treated while he was here was done ON PURPOSE, in order to make him lose face.[/size] 

Chinese must of said the same thing when "Baby Bush" visited China back in Nov 20,2005
(Remember when he couldn't find the door?)

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Ah, No Prob GS..i thought you were actually reading the posts..

I wasnt even remotely talking about China, when asking your opinion.
I was asking about the thirteen generals rallying against Bush..and whether you thought they were Traitors or Heros..

all good ....

nexxt.

["Sixhits"]

Gotta love the excuses.

We fucked it up on purpose!  See, we're not incompetent - we're so brilliant you can't even BEGIN to understand our brilliance!  Look at out how our Dear Leader shamed the Chinese despot! 

Nevermind he really just shamed all of us.  Again.

Who's fault is that?  People like Ghost's.