US Immigration Rallies

[cookie]

So, if anybody here has been following the news, you've seen the thousands of demonstrators out in the streets today advocating changes to current US immigration laws. They are calling for a transition from the current policy of law enforcement to, in the future, giving illegal immigrants a path to citizenship in the country.

I personally found the demonstrations very moving.... and being from Texas, it's definitely something that hit close to home. What do you all think?

[Civrock]

Why don't they just try to get in the country legally in the first place? And now they're complaining that they're not allowed in because they came in illegally? wtf? I mean... there HAS to be some kind of regulation of immigration, seeing as a lot of people from 'poor' countries want to come to the US (Mexico, Cuba, etc)... and what do most of these people do (and I'm not trying to sound racist here)? Yeah... work illegally, practically 'steal' jobs from legal citizens or immigrants of the country or simply are criminals.
I haven't watched any news but the reason you mentioned why they're having the demonstrations is absurd and ridiculous.

[theweakspot]

the issue isn't that simple, Civic.

The new proposed law is very controversial because of certain stipulations.  It would make it a felony to be in the US illegally, build a 700 mile fence along the border and yadda, yadda, yadda...

the problem i have with it is that it won't help.  believe me.  it wont stop immigation.

Most of the immigrants, Civic, are not stealing American jobs... they are doing jobs that Americans- including myself- won't do.  Pick crops, tons and tons of manual labor, maintenance.... most of these are menial and minimum paying jobs that- as the LA mayor said- Americans won't do.

Yes, they are here illegally... and I too am against illegal immigaration, but this law is like saying, "oh we have too many homeless people... lets stop helping them- we won't do shelters and food drives and then we won't have them anymore"  It just wont work.


My opinion: if you can't stop it, you need to control it.  They need to make it easier-- yes easier to get in the country LEGALLY.  The US needs to make programs to help immigrants enter- like work programs- and less programs to stop them...

[Civrock]

My opinion: if you can't stop it, you need to control it.  They need to make it easier-- yes easier to get in the country LEGALLY.  The US needs to make programs to help immigrants enter- like work programs- and less programs to stop them...

[BTs_FahQ2]

This whole issue cracks me up.  Both republicans and democrats have whored themselves out for different reasons and will never really get a conclusion.

I find it funny how nobody really discusses teh economics of this, it's just whether or not they should be here.  Now to summize shortly, if you give a group of people that are here the right to be here and to work here legally, they will eventually expect to have the same working conditions, pay, and representation as other workers here in the US. Now, you will get a subclass of new unions demanding higher pay, benefits and a litanny of other bullshit that they should get because we now allow them to be here. So in turn they get their way, but, the industries that relied on cheap labor will now move past this group of "legal" workers and an even new subclass of illegal workers will take their place at an even cheaper work rate or equal to what it was.  Where does it stop? This has been proven among the amnesties of the 80's and will only hold true again.

As for americans not doing these jobs, well yes and no.  I travel a lot on business and up north they really don't have many mexicans cutting lawns or making chinese food like we have here in Los Angeles.  The fact of the matter is white people and whatever other race is around does the job.  The sad facts are that American won't do those jobs at those wages.  That is the truth.  Why pay someone minimum wage to do anything when you have a surplus of workers willing to do it for half.

In addition, giving these people the right to work here an not be citizens would be really sad.  Welcome back to the era or sharecroppers and enslavement.  I can't believe most of these idiots in congress and the president could even consider this as a human option.

Last but not least, all of this only hurts the economy and does not help it.  Illegal cheap labor is not a solution but a tax on our socioeconomic system. Hospitals are failing to support the uninsured and unable to pay.  Schools are overburdoned by children of illegals who are now citizens who do not pay enough taxes to support the infastructure.  And yes, there is a debate about whether or not they do pay taxes, some do, but they never actually pay what a normal citizen does working at McDonalds because they usually report the 11 allowed deductions and so on. Ive seen it a thousand times and in literature that tells them how to do this.

Last but not least, money from these workers back to mexico used to be the #3 source of income for the country of mexico. The country supports illegal immigration because it is the only way to keep it upright and out of revolution.  The gov't is corrupt beyond belief and as twisted as most gov'ts come.  Did you know mexico itself has one of the most stict border laws and enforcements in the world. This is to ensure south americans don't get from mexico into the US and insures more of it citizens gets what jobs there are here.  That is the funniest part.

Sorry if i rambled a bunch, but i tried to touch on a lot of issues about this issue.  If you want more fact to support what i have said, do ask and i shall provide. I typed fast, many errors as well.

Something else i just remembered.  A few polls taken of protesters found the following. 70-80% don't want citizenship, they only want to be able to work here in the US. Most interviewed only had the intentions to work here long enough to raise enough money to retire successfully in mexico.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Why don't they just try to get in the country legally in the first place? And now they're complaining that they're not allowed in because they came in illegally? wtf? I mean... there HAS to be some kind of regulation of immigration, seeing as a lot of people from 'poor' countries want to come to the US (Mexico, Cuba, etc)... and what do most of these people do (and I'm not trying to sound racist here)? Yeah... work illegally, practically 'steal' jobs from legal citizens or immigrants of the country or simply are criminals.
I haven't watched any news but the reason you mentioned why they're having the demonstrations is absurd and ridiculous.

And i guess, you mean in contrast to hopping a ride with an American girl thats going to help you with your citizenship by likely marriage? Like THAT kind of legal entry? If the two of you dont marry, just see how long you get to overstay your student visa..

And then on to "what do these people do"...well, you may know a lot of shit about computers, but you dont know fuck all about the world of the immigrant worker. This may come as a shock, but the average migrant worker doesnt HAVE the convenience of internet dating well-off american teenage girls to gain his entry..Nor is he here stealing Jobs..(as are SOME foreign nationals who migrate from countries with a good educational system and healthy GDP- to come here to do work that the avg educated American MIGHT have done **cough* applestore) So lets be real straight on who is stealing who's Jobs..ok? Hard to get Health Care in Germany? No? Hard to get an education? No? National wages that rate about 1/25th of the american standard? Political oppression? No to all? then what pray tell is YOUR morally superior reason for coming over? The one that makes you qualified to look down your nose at THAT type of immigration, where the answer to most if not all of those questions is YES>  What they ARE doing, is demonstrating their will to survive, by working hot, shitty, non-union Jobs that the average American would consider Nightmare employment..and guess what? they are rallying to KEEP those shitty ass jobs....On yours and Narus salary, how long you think you could survive if food/clothing/construction costs were 700% what they are today? Not very long, im guessing..so actually, you owe THEM a debt of gratitude as well. IN a manner of speaking, you are here on the backs of those immigrants as well..enjoy your stay. Considering YOUR path to my country, it makes me want to fucking PUKE to see the patronizing, pseudo-superior language in which you framed your opinion....They are FAR more honest and upfront about their intent than you...at least they arent coming for our tech jobs... So until you get a better grasp of the 'absurd' reasons those proud, hardworking people are protesting, maybe its in your interest to stick to the Tech section.

[Civrock]

Student Visa? Marriage? What? I have a greencard which I'm getting sponsored by Apple, but thanks. I worked hard to have this possibility and to be able to pay all the required fees to immigrate (by myself, out of my own pocket, money I earned myself... get it?). Keep the anti-Civic bullshit to yourself please, it's getting boring. Did I proove you wrong on too many occasions when you were ranting about Apple or other tech topics? Oh well, I'm so sorry that I hurt your pride or whatever... no offense intended. Honestly.

I may have formulated my post a bit too harsh, yes... but as I mentioned, I didn't watch any news to know what exactly they're demonstrating for. I went by what cookie posted. All in all I completely agree with what theweakspot wrote, the last paragraph in particular.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Anti-Civic?
thats a pretty self-important position there...
You're really not the focus of the thread here Civic..im sorry.
That wasn't an attack on you, but your poorly articulated and short-sighted position.

And if in retrospect, youre going to say you totally agree with Weak, thats fine..but
anyone (ESCPECIALLY someone that has immigrated INTO an american tech job) that wrote such ill-informed Cliche immigrant crap about  the 'Stealing Jobs" issue would get the same thing from me..friend or foe. American or Not. Not my fault you were the one to say it all..

And yes, telling me that Apple wasnt ever going to boot Vista is one for the books.
You certainly showed me on that one.

The stuff about those illegals not having access to internet girlfriends still stands.
Claim iNaru has no functional importance in all this, if you want, i dont really care.
Dont care if Apple sponsored you or not. You're here doing what you claim those filthy illegals are doing..
taking a job that an American COULD have.
Something you claimed the Illegals have the market cornered on...
and a reason for you to detract from their cause.

And the mechanics of your status really dont matter that much to me either.

Your patronizing tone toward 'the illegals' does.
The comment about 'stealing jobs', does..
What you fail to realize, is that mentally, you've separated yourself from THEM, in order to indulge in your "situational superiority" over them. Problem is, it simply isnt true...you ARE them.
The argument could be made, that it shouldnt be dependant on who can pay the fees to immigrate, when the issue at hand, is that most of these people cant AFFORD TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES..so lets not pretend that properly filled out Paperwork and a few fees makes you the Ubermensch. it doesnt.

Making a judgement call about how 'Absurd & Ridiculous' their reasons for protesting,
(while in the same breath admitting your OWN ignorance on the issue)
demonstrates an arrogance, atypical for even you.

Throw BS like that out there, expect to get called on it.

I take this seriously for a wide variety of reasons...Illegal friends, past illegal employees, living in a border state all my life, understanding the issue from a real life perspective..not an 2ndhand internet perspective, and LEAST of all my reasons for taking your post on, is the fact that YOU wrote it. I could give less of a shit who spewed that nonsense....

[cookie]

Civic and Sheix, keep it on topic. You've both been warned.

Anyhow, my personal views on this are that while I don't support giving them automatic citizenship, I do believe in offering those immigrants who got here illegally and are contributing to society a path to citizenship, and furthermore recognizing the role they play in our country-for better or for worse. I certaintly also don't believe that we should call them criminals, because what other way to highlight humanity's inhumanity to humanity than to say that people are wrong for risking mortal danger just to come here and have a better life? Put yourself in their shoes. You would do it, too.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

you people are puzzling.

[BTs_FahQ2]

Here is an arguement that trumps the often said speech about humanity and how we are treating these illegals. One that may open you eyes just a little about the impact they are having on America and society.

A disproportionate amount of the work done by illegals is lower end jobs consisting of manual labor and low skill (education) jobs.  Now, historically, before the huge influx of illegal aliens, the two groups that did these jobs were teenagers and people from poor areas.  The one group I will point out here is african americans. Since the amnesty of the 80's that resulted in a increase of illegal immigration due to the hope of future amnesties or whatever law is passed to let them work here legally, african americans have been weeded out of the jobs that they used to predominately due, basically because they are historically poor, worked as manual laborers and are on the bottom level of the educational pole. Slowly workers willing to work under minimum wage have been increasing the numbers of unemployment within the african american sector across the country, but in high numbers here in Los Angeles.

One of the most recent examples of this is in New Orleans.  African american citizens of this city have been willing to work and have even tried to return to help rebuild the city working as manual laborers in construction. Now due to the overwhelmingly influx of construction projects in the area, illegals have amassed there in droves and are working in high numbers. Believe it or not, much like in many other sectors and regions, blacks are being turned away from these jobs because there is surprisingly enough labor willing to work at cheaper prices, who really cares about documentation.

Now take that into your mind and swirl it around.  That is just one example of many that have been documented and are real and not invented by some racist anti hispanic group. Are you really willing to set aside your current poor and low educated citizens of this country so that others who feel for some reason it is there right to just come on down and destroy the economics of this country work instead?  That i feel is more unhuman than caring for the citizens of another.  I am sorry if it seems a bit harsh, but you are basically telling people hey step aside for cheaper labor, we like it more. In the case of the democratic party, they are basically tossing one of the original bases of their political power, african americans, in the hope that this new emerging illegal citizen will start to vote and pick their side.  What a goddamn shame.  So yes, give up more of the low wage jobs our poor need to survive, let them survive of more welfare from the state, and welcome a new mass of people hoping to get work just because they happened to get here.

In addition, all of this new squabble about laws needed to help curb or legalize illegals is pure political propoganda. Laws were inacted after the 80's amnesty to stop the flow of immigration by penalyzing those that hire them up to $1,000 each person and facing federal prosecution.  There was also laws passed for new types of enforcement and an expansion of border capabilities. In addition immigration laws were curbed to help some of the flow, albeit, maybe not what some other countries wanted, but we did. The only problem is that we do not enforce or barely enacted any of this.  If we actually enforced the laws we had, we wouldn't have a problem. This has basically been ignored by two bushes and one clinton. Now for some dumbass reason we think we need more laws to help the laws that are already there to help us. Can someone please tell me why the name of a baby can constitute it being pulled off of an airplane as a terrorist, but a few thousand are able to run across countries in a day.  Whats the point?
   

[BTs_GhostSniper]

I have no problem with anyone LEGALLY Immigrating into this country.  Just because I was born here, I don't feel I am any better than someone like Civic who might legally become a Naturalized Citizen of the United States.  Many people forget, that unless you are a Native American living here, then nobody that lives here is really "from" the United States.  My ancestors Immigrated here from East Prussia (on my father's side) and England (on my mother's side) in the late 1800's...I'm no more entitled to anything this country has to offer than someone that became a citizen 5 minutes ago.

Now then, as for ILLEGAL Immigrants...I'm sorry, but you do NOT have the right to invade my country, not for any reason.  It's called ILLEGAL for a reason people!  That means that it is unlawful, against the rules, not acceptable...you know, just plain WRONG!  If an Illegal Alien is found in this country, they should be shipped home...do not pass go, do not collect $200 (Monopoly terminology, sorry).  I'm sorry if this sounds harsh to people...but breaking the laws of this country should not be tolerated.  I'm sorry if these people are here just to feed their children...it's still ILLEGAL!  If I lose my job today, and go out and steal from somebody in order to feed my daughter, it's just as illegal as what these people are doing...and just as I would get put in jail for it, so should these people be loaded up and sent back to where they came from.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

And just to summorize...I am Pro-Legal Immigration and Against Illegal Aliens.[/size]

Oh, and I had to take time out of my busy Disney World schedule today to post this!  sheesh[/size]

[Ethion]

I haven't had that much read in this, but I still got some kind of "hum" what i'm saying. And i'm trying to learn the american system somewhat.

But have you thought about the indians? They historical the native americans.
Which also means, that most of you "americans" in this situation is from a bunch of different countries in the European area. England, Sweden, Holland, Norway, Germany and so on.

Oh and sheix, you were kind of attacking Civic on the point of he being a legal immigrant.
It would be like, if you were to come to Sweden. I could so say to you that, that job you have is mine.
And you should go back to your own country, just because you don't understand the language.

The fact is, there is ALOT of people from different parts of the world that come to America, or any other country. Which might not be there legally. Just because they want to try and get a better life.

Civic in the situation, came to the states by a very small helping hand, iNaru. But he has still paid everything that has to be paid, his english is very high. To other legal aliens.
In that I mean, people like Civic has a much better chance to get that paper that makes him an american citizen. This is also an issue of integration, if you for example come from Mexico, and you don't even know how to say hi in english. You are going to have a problem being a part of something.

And I agree to you weak, but it's kind of hard letting people in. When USA is one of the biggest nations, that thinks of terrorism in every corner of their country.

[*DAMN Hazard]

I agree with weakspot & Ghost on this one, as long as its done legally I really don't care. From my experience most immigrants that come over from anywhere are just trying to earn a living just like my Grandparents did. In a perfect world I would say lets help Mexico out and help build an economy that actually works so there is no longer a need for them to immigrate but America has more important things to do like creating better healthcare and... wait we don't do that? Oh ya... like pissing away all our cash in some desert thousands of miles away.

[BTs_FahQ2]

I too would love to see Mexico support it's own. But you must actually have knowledge of it's history and it's current situation.

Mexico is well know to have vast more resources then the US. More ore deposits, the largest silver deposits known.  Vast amounts of oil and natural gas.  The problem with mexico is that it is only democratic on the outside. Mexico is primarily owned by a few rich families that pretty much control most of the government services and corporations.  They are known to be hand and hand with crime and supported by a culture that knows only bribery as a part of a functional government.  You really cannot do business in mexico without the permission of these parties and you sure as hell better be ready to write checks out, no wait, i think they only take cash.

Now partner that with the greed of our big business and the need for cheap labor and political parties looking to whore themselves out for votes.  You have two countries pretty much screwing an entire underclass to make money.  Our banks love illegals here because they make enormous amounts of cash from the money transfers, once again, the #3 source of income for mexico. Why does mexico love this, they get rid of most of their poor by them immigrating to the US, there is no incentive for social welfare in their own country since they can get it across the border, and why fix something that the US supports.

Now why am i so heated about this topic, because i live in southern california, the location of the majority of illegal aliens.  I can only tell you how this can affect an area if it keeps going, which our president and congress are wishing to allow.  I have pretty much no Emergency rooms to go to incase I have a heat attack. Reason being, most budgets are blown on people with colds and stomach aches who are uninsured, there is no reimbursement and the hospital closes.  I think there was 8 last year, something like 30 in the last 3, and 1 new emergency room has opened. And yes, the majority of this is due to undocumented individuals.

Schools....we spend 50% of our state budget on schooling here in CA. The school system here is a joke. I had textbooks that still considered French Indo China existant. WTF. Basically due to an influx of children (who are legal by the way since they were birthed within our border), but their parents are new to the country. This means they don't have a long history of paying taxes to begin to support their numbers, and many of them are undocumented so they get paid under the table...ie. tax free.  So more taxes for me and less education for all, in some time my future children.

I could keep going but i will wait for more posts and continue citing facts on the bane of this situation and how all sides are to blame. What do we do, try to circumvent illegal immigration now, then we try to establish what to do with those that are still here.  Enforce the law against those who hire illegals, once again pay fair wages for jobs, and stop our glorious government (both parties) from whoring themselves out for a buck and a vote.

[Ethion]

Why hasn't America "invaded" if you may say, Mexico yet?
It seems so corrupt.

[jerkasaur]

Why hasn't America "invaded" if you may say, Mexico yet?
It seems so corrupt.

It's called NAFTA, and we don't invade countries militarally that have their markets open to US goods and outsourced US manufacutring. We only invade countries that won't.

[BTs-FahQ2]

haha,

this was an actual on tv interview with one of the main organizers of the rallies in Los angeles and democratic party member of the great californian state congress. And america wonder why california is fucked. This guy actually represents a majority of my states political feelings:

Sorry, but cnn lou dobbs interviewed him, despite your feelings of cnn, this was not coaxed or anything else, just pure gold.

DOBBS: Nativo, you're talking about feeling the impact, you're talking about a boycott of all illegal aliens in this country?
LOPEZ: Well first off, I refute your terminology. You don't say kike, patty, WOP, OK, you don't say nigger.
DOBBS: Partner, I don't even listen to that kind of language. You pollute the air.
LOPEZ: You're using language that's offensive to me and offensive to my people.
DOBBS: You are wrong.
LOPEZ: You pollute the air every day, Dobbs. You are absolutely wrong.
DOBBS: You have the distinction of using language that is never...
LOPEZ: That language is offensive, it's derogatory, it's denigrating, and don't use that terminology to me again, referring to my people.

they really do compare the term "illegal alien" to that of nigger or other racial slurs.

[DAMN Bondo]

I personally thought the recent "A Day Without An Immigrant" was a really good idea. I worry people/employees might take it out on the immigrants for taking the day off, but it is a really good way for people to truly comprehend the role immigrants play in our society. I tend to think the whole issue is overblown. Immigrants typically aren't taking people's jobs (we have a low inflation rate anyhow), the security risk hasn't really been a problem...those who seek to hurt us seem to get in just fine legally. When talking about the legal/illegal immigration problem and how the latter might disincentivise the former, my guess would be legal immigrants enjoy a generally much higher status upon arriving. There are perks to being a legal immigrant to be sure so that it is natural that we would want to funnel them to that status eventually.

One thing to consider, in the past, simply showing up in the country was basically good enough (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/07/AR2006050700721.html). Also, the US has done immigration better than pretty much any country in history. We certainly don't want to emulate France or Germany on this. Creating any status like guest worker that does not include a path/option to full citizenship is likely to alienate and create tension.

If the politicians want to find a real policy problem in American right now, it is health care. The american public, economy, corporations, etc cannot handle not having universal health care much longer.

P.S. Democracies don't go to war with democracies...according to democratic peace theory. I would argue instead we simply destablize democracies we don't prefer, let them become authoritarian and THEN go to war with them.