What if this was your father?

[Croosch]

we are not all liberals here.

tis a shame

["Sixhits"]

She says the Dems should go clean up their house first.  But I say America is their house - is our house - and removing the Republicans from power is the first step to making America great again.

Bring out the old stalking horse Ted Kenedy and I'll point to Tom Delay, Scooter Libby, Duke Cunningham, Jack Abramoff, Thomas Noe, David H. Safavian and now, Brian Doyle.  This is the face of the Republican party - just a short list of the indicted face - a list of people involced in bribery, purjury, corruption and pedophilia (that would be Brian Doyle, Homeland Security Department spokesman).

She just doesn't get it.  The right likes to pretend that the Dems aren't a better solution to this country's problems because the Dems don't have any new ideas or better solutions.  That's flat wrong, but She's bought it hook line and sinker. 

One of the left's biggest problems is that we have very good plans that we poorly articulate.  They tend to be complicated and nunaced.  Do you actually want me to dig up policy papers?  Is that what you need to read before you'd kick the Republicans out of Congress?

You perfer policies like ban gay marriage, cut taxs, and deport illegal immigrants?  Policies that are simple on their face, but fail when actualized because they are based in political grandstanding.  Are any Republican policies not polictical grandstanding?  Terri Shiavo anyone?

But just in case you're still reading:
Here are some links to Democratic policy. If you really, really want me to I will try and dig up policy papers and shove thousands of words in your face.
http://democrats.senate.gov/agenda/
and
http://www.democrats.org/agenda.html

This nation cannot afford Republican rule.  That's the underlining point of the first post I made -- after all they've done, how can you trust them?  We need to take their "key" to power; they've just done too much damage with it.

An example of a Democratic leader?  Senator Russ Feingold.
http://feingold.senate.gov/

[KoS.Rebel]

Big words sheix? Good comeback. Im surprised thats all you could think of. Im faily sure my vocabulary is right on par with yours. I don't feel the need to use high vocabulary on forums just to make myself seem "older". You are a sad soul, get a life please. Ive been around these parts longer then you have so please dont even try to challange me. Thank you come again.

["Sixhits"]

Personally, I really enjoyed his comparison of me to cruel townfolk.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Trumped again Reb, by your reference to your leet historical pro gamer status. Put it on your resume.
And, I am older..and educated..a claim youll be able to make if you ever get your 'coaching degree'...
And I dont use "high vocabulary' to make myself seem older..I use "A" vocabulary to articulate complex ideas to the other adults on the forum...with more than three-sentence posts.. 
wtf is a 'high vocabulary' anyway?

And no Reb, our vocabularies are not even remotely 'faily" similar..thx.
I would Never 'Challange' someone who can't actually SPELL the word "challenge".

 **applauds florida's public education system.

Welcome back to your post Sixhits..problem is..no one cares anymore.

And if, just once, you read the posts (in order) and absorbed the words in it (which you NEVER do)..i said i realized where the shortfalls in our administration were. AND conceded that the first post sounded like more of an attack on you personally than intended....and aimed it at insult politics in general..to avoid just the type of post you made here.. But you skipped that part evidently. You thought your Drunk analogy was so cute, I thought id use the same analogy to make MY point..but you dont see the common sense in it i guess..

You havent supplied a SOLUTION, so youre broadbrushing again, without acknowleging the postions i already put out there...so really, youre not discussing, your just talking...

Gays can marry, cut taxes when prudent, and deport criminal illegals..thats different from your position how exactly? (in case my ACTUAL -instead of presumed- positions are relevant to you) Hell, i wasnt saying that the Dems dont have solutions, i was saying YOU didnt offer any..other than high school ad hominem...discuss the fucking issues. And is not my job to dig thru their policy papers to get the Gist of what the Dems want to do..thats THEIR job..Not my fault if the infighting is so thick that those positions never make it into coherehnt unified actionable policy. (ie McKinney taking the focus from the Dems well thought out compromise package for Home Security)

OK this one drank, the last one shot jizz on interns..neither side gets to wear white in the personal arena.
Discussing that dont pass muster for political debate for me. Yeah no shit this administration sucks..you seriously think anyone's crediting YOU for that realization? Please...dead horse material bro.

Matter of fact, I seldom argue your core position..just the language you frame it in.
Insult politics wont win you any converts..
THAT was the point of my response.
Good job on completely missing it....again.

[*DAMN Hazard]

gg thread closed I win

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

hahah dude..you CLOSED a political topic with some heat
(but no WAY out of control flames..just some smoke)
but LEAVE OPEN the Envy thread?

That Envy shit is still running right now as we speak...but a political discussion??
..OMG BAD...LOCK..KILL...uaarrgghhh!!

are you for real???

Shutting a thread that really isnt out of control,
which discusses something substantial,
(even if participants HEAVILY disagree)
smacks of BLATANT personal preference,
and is a misuse of your Mod status
if youre going to leave that TOTAL flame bait i put out on Envy.

Calling threads you dont Like "Piles of Shit" and "Thread Locked I Win" bullshit.....That's weak bro.

If you take your job seriously, and this isnt Haz's list of unacceptable topics but ACCEPTABLE flames,
Close Envy...reopen the political discussion..
I think Reb was about to pwn me with his intellectual gamer skillzorxx...wouldnt that be fun to watch?

Controversy is the only thing that gets this forum going..or havent you noticed?

[Ethion]

we need a fucker to flame..

["Sixhits"]

Weaksauce, Haz.

And so I will continue the debate:

Let's take a step back.  I didn't write my posts as an insult to you, though I have done before (and relish the chance to do so again), so it's a shame you took them take way.  I thought comparing me, in a roundabout way, to mean townsfolk was rather funny!

Dude, I caught your metaphor.  It's a good one.  But I think you misapply it to yourself.  Are you really saying that my criticism of George Bush and the Republican Party is like laughing at you for having an abusive father when you were 16?  (yes, yes I know YOU didn't have one...)

If you are, you're wrong.  I'm criticizing our government, run by the Republican party (controling all four branches of the government) by using the metaphor of "a drunk". Maybe that makes you feel persecuted.  It would if I had voted one of them in.  I'd be defensive.  I'd lash out whenever someone criticized them, because I'd feel responsible.  I'd feel like I owned that crticizm.  But it would not literally be my fault.

I do like to trace ownership of public crimes back to the people who voted for them.  I want them to think about their vote before they cast it and consider if they truly endorse the person... or whether they are just upset over some picadilly.  I've been guilty of the same thing.

The purpose of my post was to bring this up : the issue of irresponsiblity. At what point have those in power seriously questioned their actions?  They haven't and they simply won't.  The way you get irresponsibly people out of office in this country is to vote them out.  I really do consider that the first step in solving this nation's problem.  It's simplistic, but it's something we all can do.

Right now the people in power are Republicans.  We both agree they are piss.

You also asked for a Democratic leader and what their solutions to the problems created by Republicans are.  I pointed to Russ Feingold, a guy who's taking very public stands on several issues.  The most prominent of these is the Censor resolution proposed in the Senate. If you'd like me to go into more detail on this, I can, but sufice to it say the President has decided he can avoid following the wire tap laws on domestic survelance.  It's not even what Bush is doing while breaking the law; it's that he's insisting on continuing to do so, which sets a precident for future Presidents to exploit. Feingold is taking action to hold him accountable avoid setting a dangerous precident that weakens our rights as citizens.

But the trouble remains, there is so much that has been broken in this country after five years of near absolute Republican rule.  How can I possibly give you, in this forum, a fix for all of them or point to a leader on every issue? 

Worse, if I offer up my time to find you the Left's detailed policies, you mock me.  I offer you the bullet points from two websites that are reductionist in the level of detail they provide on the Democratic agenda, you mock me too.  How do I have a disccussion with you when there is no way to begin?  No matter how we approach it, you dismiss it.

You're pretty good at the ad hominem attacks yourself.  I have no problem with that.  It's fun and a flamboyant way to make your point .  But if you want to have me to be "adult" then you need to be as well.  You know that.  So, to paraphrase what you've said to me before, it seems you don't want to have a debate, that you'd rather complain about the lack of debate, or the broadnes of the criticism, or whatnot. 

[Ein]

we need a fucker to flame..

And if we can't flame the republican party then Envy will have to do. Now which flames would be more aceptable, Hazard?

Ein

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Ill second the motion of Sixhits, and continue anyways...

nanny nanny haz...

While its been my general tone...(somewhat mocking) with our debates...id make it known, that i probably misphrased MY thoughts on the detailed policy list you provided..

Thats what i asked for and you came thru.

And as for how the Dems handle themselves...Not as much mocking as pointing out a weakness that I too, ascribe the democrats..(their political will to execute lacks sorely) I was actually addressing what is VIEWED as a weakness...rather than perhaps whether it is or not...fair point there.

As for  the metaphor..what i meant, was not to compare mocking bush to mocking the Kid, but rather, Mocking Bush is similar (at this point) to mocking the kid when he has no means of escape from what he KNOWS to be a fucked situation NOR offereing him a solution. The townspeople pointed out publically the shitty situation, but while being in a position to suggest particulars for relief..did nothing but reassign blame...such as you assigning blame to voters...(which is fine)

But when those voters KNOW they fucked the pooch, they dont need to be reminded anymore. The country doesnt need to be reminded anymore. Barring Martial Law, Im betting there is a DRASTIC fucking change at the next presidential cyle. It may come as early as the mid-terms...we'll see.

And yeah im feeling some responsibilty...not regret mind you..because i voted with the best info i had..even after the first election. I voted for him twice. Complex reasoning process tho..not kneejerk..I knew or felt it was a lesser of two evils..but had NO clue hed bring in such a fucked up Crony-Army ..no clue.

 As ive stated in other posts..Bush is not even REMOTELY the same human that i voted for, becuase i watched him in action as governor closely..and we're not even talking the same species...My take is that something REALLLLLY godamned heavy is happening behind the scenes or he may actually be experiencing early onset dementia..thats how radically different they are. I was voting for razor sharp bush the governor....


I accept the premise of irresponsibility(and voter responsibility)..and coulnt agree more..but like that Kid thats only 16...we got two more years..cant change that right now, so beating the dead horse (or citizens making fun of the kid for his father before he can legally move out) doestn accomplish anything...its just ...repetitive. And over the course of all debate whether here or with Euros..i godamn get it..ya dont like Bush..ffs..ok already...NEXXXXT. (not to you, really..in general..and thats the tone i took with it)

I missed your reference to Feingold..and ill be damned if you didnt bring up the one guy that i couldnt make fun of. I was REALLY hoping you push Hillary at me, so i could guffaw in your face..but alas.

And i knew that wasnt intially an insult at me..i was just angrily responding to the general tone of the world, which i understand..but at the same time, am unable to change at the moment.

NeVER back off..never go easy..Taking radical positions is the only way to really test the other guy to see where he stands in relation. MAke em defend their positions..with force if Necessary so that in the end, generally you find what their core elements of belief are...and maybe find that the positions arent that far off, and everybody is better for the entertaining banter.

Reb was in way the fuck over his head on that one tho...
Having a leet GR #, and being a pro-gamer doesn't REMOTELY qualify him for a debate with me...but you...different story. I welcome it every time.


peace & respect

["Sixhits"]

I think we really can change things.  For the first time in a long time.

Let me preface this with the statement that I like balance.  No one party, even if it's my own, should rule absolutely.  Compromise is the path to stability and success in a nation.  No one should ever be so powerful as to be satisfied.

So barring a coup or a war with Iran, I'm pretty sure the Repubs will be out this mid-term.  Such a power shift will be good for America.  Personally, I want to see the Congress investigate the hell out of this Administration and hold them accountable. No more yes-men.

But my faith in a coming change has little to do with Democratic election chances.  It's more to do with how the debate has changed.  That the powerful are, in effect, having bullshit called on them by the people.  This has emboldened Dems like Feingold and weaked the iron fisted rule of the Republicans.  Indeed, the Hammer is now gone form Congress, having announced his retirement. 

I think both parties desperately need new blood.  When John McCain and Hillary Clinton are the frontrunner for '08, I get pissed.  Neither has accomplished anything of significance during these bad years. 

And you're right about the left.  I have been consistantly disappointed by many of my leaders.  I've been paying more attention to Feingold precisely because he has taken the risk of calling fo Censor.  It's the right thing to do, and dangerous.  His own party, to a large extent, is against him.  No one really has the guts to demand accountablity.  I keep saying that word, and it's coupled to responsiblity, and I really believe.  No one should be in Congress who won't take a stand.  That both sides wuss out in their own ways is disappointing.  But now I see more and more Dems - people like Feingold, Boxer, Louise Slaughter, John Conyers, Jr. and even Kerry (the fucktard) - standing up for issues they believe.  I'll give it to Kerry - he's called for setting a deadline for iraq to form a government or we withdraw immeadiately; if they do form one, we shall wirthdraw by the end of the year.  Acts like that encourage me.  It's not perfect, but so much is fucked we need to make the hard choices. 

[Ein]

Sheix, you ask why people keep "beating the dead horse" about electing bush or siding with the republican party. I know there are only 2 years left in this term as I'm sure Sixhits does. If we do not remind people of the bad choice in reelecting a leader who in my oppinion totally screwed up their first term, then they might repeat the mistake in the next election. Not necessarily with bush since he can not run again, but with some other right winged republican.

I thought for sure, based on Bush's first term performance that there was no way in hell he would win over Kerry unless he pulled some unclear ballot scam in Florida again like in the previous election.  I mean here was a man who durring his term let our unemployment rate go from the lowest it had been to almost the highest it has been since the great depression.

I understand changing presidents durring a state of war does not show the solidarity of a country supposedly but I think that having someone who actually had served in a combat unit durring wartime would have been a better choice to lead our country than Bush who seemed more preoccupied with finding the oil in iraq than the weapons of mass destruction but waited til we were so deeply involved in iraq that we couldn't pull out any longer.

Perhaps reminding people of all that Bush and the repiublican party has done wrong will persuade them to just try the Democratic party again. Remember good ole Clinton... He wasn't soo bad. So what if he had sex with a few interns... At least he was good with foreign relations.

But who do we democrats got to offer next? I don't know. I hope to god not hillary cause that would just be giving the election away. I would say Obama but there is no way that a black man would win the election any more than hillary would (not that I am personally opposed to women or african american presidents... Its just the country isn't ready for them yet).

Ein

["Sixhits"]

It takes a carrot and a stick.  The Left has finally found a stick (because the Republicans dropped theirs while they were were beating us up).  Now the Left needs to find a carrot.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Yeah Good points Ein..i guess it comes down to perhaps me feeling some responsibility..and realizing I assisted in bringing our administration into existence.

Thats a fucking heavy burden and Im feeling let down, spooked by the intensity in direction, and saddened that I coudnt have seen it coming. Therefore..just a tad defensive mb.

HAH, and yeah, i was thinking about Clinton tonight, and what small potatoes he was on the Fuckup Farm...so he poked her with a cigar and blew one on her dress...thats NOTHING....comparitively.

sigh...

[Ein]

HAH, and yeah, i was thinking about Clinton tonight, and what small potatoes he was on the Fuckup Farm...so he poked her with a cigar and blew one on her dress...thats NOTHING....comparitively.

sigh...

Hell, Kennedy did lots more and he is considered by many to be one of the greatest presidents in the history of our country.

[*DAMN Hazard]

hahah dude..you CLOSED a political topic with some heat

The majority of the thread was Reb baiting you into a hissy fit in which other people dropped their 2 cents here and there. Not to mention that most of your posts all start out with insults and then slowly merge on topic. I in no way abused my mod status I felt that the thread was destined for flames. Then you give me some comment about the Envy thread when I just logged on and am seeing them for the first time.

I called the thread a pile of shit cause thats what it was turning into a shitstorm between you and Reb. Me saying shit like that and the gg thing is just a joke I didnt say it to exert my power as a mod or some power trip shit, I'm not an egotistical dickhead the thread was dead in my eyes. And I don't take "my job seriously" because it's not a job. It's my choice to moderate cause I like *DAMN and Mauti and everything they have done for me, so ya I joke around. I thought the thread was causing more aggravation than discussion but I guess not everyone felt that way.

Besides if you really wanted to continue the debate all it would have took was a pm and if you have anything else to say to me thats where you should say it.

So what else can I say... My bad

But thats all beside the point, so if the debate is still clean and ongoing I'll just merge the threads.

[jerkasaur]

Hell, Kennedy did lots more and he is considered by many to be one of the greatest presidents in the history of our country.

Wrongly. Seriously, it's because people would rather have some rosey, fanciful impression of history and our leaders places in it, rather than actual facts. When was the last time you saw anything "negative" in an American History textbook (pre college level and even then...)? No wonder we have such a fucked up society today - the entire vietnam war took up almost 20 pages in my high school history textbook.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

No Haz...

You did the right thing..
I couldlnt blame you really..
Just thought it was funny that the Envy post stayed open so long.
It was getting REALLY ugly in there..

I Didnt mean to take such an extreme a tone with you.
i was on a roll, and in a mood.
So ill apologize and say 'MY' bad instead.

jus' kickin the mud around to keep things exciting.
really..sorry

peace bro.