French Riots and unrest

[Ein]

 

Well said Sheix. To tell the truth, besides ghost, it seems like none of the french are productively contributing to this conversation. If this was a business you would all be fired according to the new laws. Actually the whole conversation has been a debate between the UK and the US which gets us no closer to answering Sheix's original questions. All we have is speculation by both thwe contributing sides with a few undeserved lash outs from the French side who was asked the question to begin with (once again, not you ghost).

If the french don't want to defend their position then I see no more need for debate. It is getting us nowhere.

Ein

["Sixhits"]

I spent a little over two weeks in Paris last June.  Lived with two young people, one working as a Lawyer for Air France, the other was a surfer dude working at a clothing store.  They had a remarkably simple life, a good sized apartment in Marmont (near the Scared Heart), but struggled to be happy.  That was odd to me.  Both complained about their jobs.  Poor pay, long commutes and little room for advancement.  How could they raise a family in that apartment?  How could they look forward to the future if it's to be the same as yesterday? 

To simpify, a lot of their problems were ones most Americans suffer through with a groan and a "that's life" shrug.  But these two still had big dreams and didn't want to feel trapped.  Part of me admires that; the refusal to accept your situation.  So these protesters, I admire their willingness to attempt to affect the change they desire. 

just as with the recent protests across the US against the radical imigration law which proposed to make ilegal imigration a federal crime.  Bully for our protesters on that one! A focused issue and an important one.

But I think it's pretty clear that the protests in France are a conglomeration of various interest groups motivated by different things converging around one event. I just don't understand what the fuck they really think they're doing...

[|3ID| Solidus]

Bunch of bourgeois kids protesting things they know nothing about. Only in Europe can you be a Marxist with maids. As for your economy one of our "states", where I happen to live, is one notch under the whole country of France, as California is the worlds sixth largest economy. Unfortunate to say, but you will need a terrorist incident in France to wake you up to what's really happening in the world, but your military is so noexistent you will wait for some other country to bail you out like France always has. (BTW Thanks for the help 200 years ago we will add it to France's Greatest Military Victories Vol One -all 2 pages)

"Renault, Peugeot or Citroen are going well, how are going Ford and GMC ? waow nice economy u have in your country..."

Renault increased global sales by 1.7% in 2005 to 2.53 million vehicles for the whole world. Your unemployment rate is 10% where it has been for a decade, I wouln't brag about your ecomomy if I were you.

And finally to put it all into perspective, if France had to absorb 12 million illegal immigrants you wouldn't even have a country.

Go stomp some grapes, make sure the cheese isn't too moldy and let the US stick with what it knows best-running the world. And you can go on selling to countries like Iraq, Libya and Iran to boost that abysmal GMP you have.

Vive la difference!

["Sixhits"]

France needs a terrorist incident?

Jez, you're not worth reading.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

They had a remarkably simple life, a good sized apartment in Marmont (near the Scared Heart), but struggled to be happy. 

I know it was a simple typo i've probably made a few times..but still Scared Heart...THAT's funny..

And I also, WOULD have admired that same willingness to refuse to just 'accept things' too...but the ignorance theyve displayed in these posts lost them all my sympathy. (Aside from Ghost, whom ive seen repeatedly to communicate fairly and thoughtfully with the forum, and is appreciated..alot)

Ive known a couple French guys too, and was amazed that THEY were amazed that we werent angry about everything all the time (little stuff too)...they didnt strike me as happy people either, despite being fairly well off and educated. It was odd..

However..on the immigrant protest issue...NOT bully on that one. A full 90% of the protesters dont even know the law they are protesting here. My wife FORCED them to download that law, and discuss it for three days..in a fucking ART class..and Salsa club, which she sponsors. As a result, I think she has classes containing approximately the ONLY 127 hispanics who are now..no longer protesting the law. LULAC is NOt happy. Nor are the Aztlan advocates...o fucking well.

I asked her to be careful on that one..but I love that she ignored me completely. It almosts chokes me up, that she cares about them so much..even if they are angry right now.. She gave them the chance to dig up the 'discriminatory' parts of the law...and said whe would acknowledge and respect that view if thats what they came to. They did not..by vote. Gives me chills to think about her courage on that one...probably could have lost her job...

While it makes a federal crime out of illegal entry..(um, yeah as it should be) it DOES NOT punish them harshly...it merely imposes a MINISCULE fine, educates them on the proper and still PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE way to become naturalized, and returns them. As it is in ANY civilized country. That TINY ass fine will go to help staff the borders..AS IT SHOULD BE...  Those of you NOT living in border states could not possibly have any sympathy for what their numbers have done to the medical costs here. In One single county in Arizona in ONE MONTH alone...a total of 693 immigrant workers treated for a wide variety of illnesses (long and short term) cost that county 632 MILLION dollars!!!!!... Border states cannot afford that, no matter how benevolent the health care system desires to be. Just try getting sick in Mexico without cash...see what happens. Nothing..thats what. If you cant pay UP FRONT IN CASH, you are sent away in a taxi. PERIOD.

This isnt a cruelty issue, or a racism issue, it's simple economics, and one that NO OTHER nation in the world offers similar free-ride health care..or Education...or Anchor babies (to illegal immigrants, i mean).. For the longest time, we have allowed citizenship to any baby born on American soil..They forget to mention THAT while they are protesting about our racism and cruelty. Try having a baby in Germany, then DEMANDING an education for that Child, and free Healthcare for life..or anywhere else for that matter..It wont happen.

I am completely for legal, responsible naturalization, as I realize that our country is a melting pot..and that many workers are a thousand times more motivated than their american conterparts to make a responsible go at the American Dream and that without them...lettuce would cost 8 dollars a head and costs of cotton clothing would triple. Despite this seeming imbalance of justice, Im fucking proud to know, and have employed Illegals on many occasions...so i can say with experience, that I understand the issues from both sides, and dont want overly harsh repercussions..but on THIS one, the protesting without the facts, and calling for Aztlan (returning California, New Mexico, colorado and Nevada to Mexico) is going to earn them a SUPER harsh Anti-Immigrant vote in the legislatures of all these border states... and that would be a damn shame.

Asking for or demanding a secure Border is my right as an American, and fuck any advocacy protest-monger for simply Race-baiting this issue.

["Sixhits"]

I agree, the call to return California, New Mexico, Nevada and Colorado to Mexico is nuts.  We stole them fair and square. ;-)

Yes, Scared Heart.  You should have seen the angels.  Like Disney's "It's a Small World" ride on crack. 

I think we're actually in agreement here.  I admire that the French youth are willing to take to the streets, I just wish they were doing it with a clear purpose.  Ultimately, it's rather stoopid.

As for the proposed immigration law here.  I do not want forced deportation or to make ilegal immigrants felons.  I just disagree with those two penalities on their face.  We need to figure out how to reduce the influx of ilegals, not punish them or force them to pay money they don't have for their own deportation.  You also need to accept that for a lot of people who support these sorts of laws it is precisely the racial issue that motivates them.  Making illegas felons will only endorse their bigortry and give them fire for their hate.

Put another way, I don't want German immigration laws in America. I don't want a European protectionist system.

I don't want a wall or an armed boarder either.  Those are not solutions.  If people want to come to America they will find away to do so.

Here are some wiser ways to address the problem:

1) Adopt technology-driven border control.
No more militias on the boarder.  No wall.  No Army.  Just smart tech like loitering UAVs that can track inflow coupled with rapid response Boarder Patrol officers.  We can plug the boarder without militarizing it.

2) Reform the visa system and widen our legal labor pool.
Make is easier for people to be Legal Immigrants.

3) Adopt a guest-worker program.
Clearly, Americans want to hire ilegal workers. They're cheap.  Shift those workers into a work program that puts them on track to becoming citizens, if they want, but at least keeps them "within the system" while retaining their economy.  I do have a concern with this... it may depress wages.  It depends on how this worker program is structured. I also don't want to create a "second-class" of workers.

4) Address the root causes of ilegal immigration.
We will never truly solve the issues that drive people to risk death to enter our country, but we can find ways of generating economic growth in their homelands so fewer people will want to leave to begin with.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

OK,Point..

Remove the felony status...make illegal entry a misdemeanor...
Felony status is too harsh, and would fuel further hatred.
Keep the fines small.

I am TOTALLY onboard with 1-3 in some form or another..PErfect, safe, common sense solutions..

#2 & 3 are the most effective, and easily adopted with the strongest long term conseqeunce.
I say let the free market set the price for labor, and until they are legal, they must bear the burden of their illegal status...which means, working @ lower wages if Nec...   Harsh, but logical.

BUT to date the militias are acting withinn the laws, and had the government NOT tagged them with the name 'MILITiA" they would probably have full american support...
Only two or three instances of inappropriate actions in over a year and a half, and there were followup punishments for offending militia members. Militia member are instructed NOT to make contact, at the rishk of facing federal interfeence charges. While it may seem radical..it allows these froups in participating in their god given right to defend their country and their countries law....as long as they comply..im FINE with it...and would encourage MORe of it, if Border Patrol Budgets are cut or not increased.

#4 is outside our control. They are trying to escape a dead economy rife with crime and corruption. We cannot fix that..or even dream of doing so..

And whatver comes in place MUST address the porous borders.
I come from a small town one hour north of El Paso, and I am hearing stories from family of immigrants OTHER than mexican migrant workers making entry..on a regular basis..as i am ALSO hearing of ARMED mexican military escorts making forees into Texas and as far north As Southern New Mexico to protect the coyotes, and smuggle frugs. Frugs? drugs even...

MILITARIZE if necessary. As recently as two months ago..a LARGE convoy of drug trucks and Humvees were intercepted only to find that they were facing a smaller convoy of Mexican Military vehicles WITHIN that convoy and WITHIN OUR BORDERS ...armed with mounted 50 cals...itching for a fiery confrontation.  In the end the border patrol and armed national guards backed off to avoid a political bloodbath...complicating Bush's trips...Pfft..and allowed the Mexican Military to retreive two Humvess..likely LOADED with cocain which had become stuck in the riverbed of the mostly empty Rio Grande. (more likely these are armed militia groups donning police garb) but nonetheless...
I say Militarize and defend with Extreme force if threatened and or fired upon...EVEN to the point of crossing the river for apprehension.
Trains must be and should be searched..>Every car if need be. My family has had to suffer the repercussions of discovering not one but TWO train cars full of dead people on our property
Unacceptable.

["Sixhits"]

I think #4 is a goal to strive for.  We've affected that sort of socio-economic change before, it just has to be motivated.  I think it comes down to the US government backing leaders who look out for their own people.

As for the militias, I don't like'em.  Militias went out with the Spanish-American war.  They just have no place within our society.  Armed bands, no matter how well intentioned, shouldn't be on the border.  I feel this way because I wouldn't want my neighbor and his sons to grab their guns and patrol my neighborhood every night looking for criminals.  I don't want that kinda of power in the hands of people who lack regulation and orversight.

I agree they have a right to defend themselves and their country, but hapeless people rushing across the border are not invaders to be chased off.  And armed convoys of Mexican regulars... well, I've not heard that one before.  If true, then that's a job for the National Guard and our regular Army boys. Again, I think we're really advocating the same thing.  If Mexican troops - for any reason - cross the boarder then they need to be delt with, but we don't need to militarize the boarder to deal with them. 

Really, we're talking about two issues now: ilegal immigration and mexican troops working with drug smugglers. 

Interesting thought: Rumsfeld has been on about makign a lighter, more mobile military.  Why not make a lighter, more mobile boarder patrol?  Give them a airlift squdron and a few dozen Border Patrol SWAT or equivilant plus the satelite top-down support and UAV loiterers.  Mexican Army cross the border, cut them up. (I'm actually a hawk with a big, soft liberal heart)

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Part of the requirement the Minutemen HAVE to abide by (to address that issue exactly) is that they are NOT permitted to carry guns.

It s a bunch of grandmas and grandpas with radios.
nothing more....and again, they are not allowed (nor have they been making) physical contact of any kind whatsoever.

["Sixhits"]

The Minutemen, by my reading, are a dangerous organization.  While they proclaim that that refuse to take any support from radical group, their own webpage is filled with racial code words.  For example:

"In a show of strength the Army of Illegal Aliens and Open Border Traders set their example at Montebello High School California for the entire world to see! On March 25th 2006 the United Armies of Illegal Aliens marched on Los Angeles being welcomed with opened arms from Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa.  The message went forth that the invaders demand all U.S. citizenship rights and privileges without pledging allegiance to the Red White and Blue, however many did pledge allegiance to the Red, White and Green.  What was the response from Capitol Hill? Many cowardly Senators voted to give-in to the screaming hordes and passed treasonous legislation. Once again politicians surrender to the, biggest thugs with the biggest clubs!"
http://www.minutemanproject.com/

How many examples of subtle race-baiting can we find?  Army of Illegals?  Marched on Los Angeles?  Invaders demanding previleges?  Screaming hordes?  Big thugs? 

Here's a story on the Minutement:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=557
"At Station Two, Minuteman volunteers grilled bratwursts and fantasized about murder.

"It should be legal to kill illegals," said Carl, a 69-year old retired Special Forces veteran who fought in Vietnam and now lives out West. "Just shoot 'em on sight. That's my immigration policy recommendation. You break into my country, you die."

Carl was armed with a revolver chambered to fire shotgun shells. He wore this hand cannon in a holster below a shirt that howled "American bad asses" in red, white and blue. The other vigilantes assigned to Station Two included a pair of self-professed members of the National Alliance, a violent neo-Nazi organization. These men, who gave their names only as Johnny and Michael, were outfitted in full-body camouflage and strapped with semi-automatic pistols."

Maybe we're talking bad apples here.  But dunno.  We've seen this sort of vigilante stuff a decade ago.  As a nation, we are better off without these people taking center stage on the debate over Illegal Imigration.

[Ein]

The issue of militias relates to the same issue of rights to bear arms. The use for militias is to protect the civikians in the event that the government is acting unaccordingly towards it's citizens.

In my oppinion, the government is not doing anyrthing it should not be doing with regards to boarder patrol and therefore militias have no place doing their own boarder patrol. Leave defending the country to the National guard. That is what that specific branch of the military is designed to do. If you wish to be apart of that, then enlist... Don't join some radical group.

As to the fact that all militias are filled with neo nazis and the like... I don't know about that. Six, I think that the source which you quoted seemed a bit biased towards militias in general and was trying to show them all in a negative light based on a few of it's members though I agree that there are probably some smaller militias that might actually be that bad but not the majority of them. As sheix said, most militias are filled with the elderly who are too old to be enlisted on active duty in the military but wish to still be apart of something they believe aids their country.

As for the forign military assisting "frug" runners... I am appauled that more isn't being done to stop such things. If this is in fact true and has been seen by the US government, you would think that would be enough to up funding to the boarder patrols and increase the ammount of troops stationed for that duty. The boarder patrols are already underfunded which is one cause for so many illegal immigrants making it into the country in the first place which caused such strictt laws to be passed. If the funding and manpower was there to begin with, such laws wouldn't be seen as necessary because we would have a better hold on the problem.

I like the ideas 1-3 sugested by Six as well as the mobile boarder patrol(great idea) but agree that 4)solve the others countries defecit problem is impossible. We can't even solve our own defecit and look at all the good were doing in iraq by trying to get involved where we weren't wanted.

Ein

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Yeah, i was going to say the same thing on the second link...too..but then..i went to link #1.

So, it appears that there is somewhat of a leadership struggle within the Minutemen.
And the 'good ole boys' are getting kinda kooky. Even the language on the minutemen site was a tad militant...

Well, not that Chanting we hate the Gringo, and Viva Aztlan isnt a bit agressive as well..
both sides need to mind their P's and Q's here.

if it were run like I would want it run..it could be a positive thing.
NO Contact, No Guns, radios ONly.
All with the threat of Felonious interference charges.

BUT, it seems, that that group is getting out of hand ideologically a bit..and despite their initial efforts at being moderate, but firm..theyre starting to just sound nutty...and agressive.

I certainly hope they keep their hands off in this upcoming round of patrols.
As I read them currently, theyre NOT what I would have in mind for civilian groups on the border.
And as I read deeper, I find that what they ARE doing is interfering with the electronic devices in place by the border patrol now. Sound monitors and infrared detectors. Thats not good either..

so i guess another one of those good intentions lost in translation...

i still think its our right to defend our borders, if the funding is being slashed so hard. These people living on Ranches on the border have a RIGHT to feel safe, and not have their land destroyed from being a slack spot in the enforcement line.

But somehow, this current Minuteman effort will just make the situation worse...

["Sixhits"]

Small nit-pick -- I don't think all militias are full of neo-nazis and their sort.  The problem is a lot of these groups are appealing to people who are white supremacists, radical nationalists, or sovreign citizen-ists.  If you don't want brown people in your country and you are militant to begin with, why wouldn't you want o to patrol the border?  Groups like the Minutemen give these sorts of people a forum from which to act out their desires. 

You don't have to dig too deep into a group like the Minutement to find the hatred.  At least, that's been my experience.  So I've become biased.

What She talks about - a true citizen's group that just tries to put more eyes on the border - that's far more appealing to me.  Part of what I think it wrong with Militias is that there is no one in authority governing them.  That's why a lot of people find them appealing.  But when you have no oversight and you have power... people tend to abuse.  This actually brings us towards the core reason I'm a liberal.  I like govnerment.  I like laws.  I like taxes, even, as long as they have a purpose.  I cannot understand why someone would want to go outside of the government on somehting like border patrol and do a job they are already paying for.  Demand that the government do it's job! The government exists to serve the people; if it fails, then we challenge it; if it keeps failing, we change it and put people in change who will do what we believe is right.

From that point of view, militias... they seem anarchist to me.

[Ein]

True... Although their site says they do not condone violence or want the help or affiliation of any hate groups, I can see how militias would seem to draw the wrong types of people in(and thanks for pointing out that 1st link... Missed it and it did change my views a bit on the minutemen). I do not believe militias to be anarchistic though. These militias don't seem bent on destroying the government but more on assisting it (in their own twisted and backwards way). As you said, they lack definate leadership and guidance but I believe that they think they are actually helping our government with patroling the boarders rather than hindering it.

If they were a bit more organized and a bit less militant, I could see how they could possibly be useful in assisting boarder patrols. Take away their guns and give them a radio to contact the propper authorities when they see a boarder jumper.

Ein

["Sixhits"]

http://www.slate.com/?id=2139399&entry/0/nav=tap1

Short article on the Minutemen.  It cuts both ways.

[cookie]

Looks like the law is on its way out, and so is the PM