A counsil would be good.. but not for direct rule making. We clound have the counsil in a chat room once a week and discuss things that an appointed counsil member could bring up to Mauti to take into consideration. just an idea.

     For those who wondered, that constitution took me about an hour yesterday morning. It's not complete; there are sections and points missing from it. Basically, I was tired and in a hurry to sleep, so I forgot to add some things. : )

     My idea of the role of the Council is as a device to give the clans some direct say in the League, without taking over the jobs of Mauti & the mods. You'll note that getting anything passed the way the Constitution is written will be pretty difficult (2/3 majority). In other words, stuff like "I propose a rule stating that such-and-such a clan is full of doodieheads!" won't go anywhere, but if something really needs to be done, it can be.

     On a different point, Bucc, Jeb, Cossack, Alaric and I were discussing various aspects of the proposed Council system and other issues related to the BL, and one thing that we came up with (I can't recall whose idea it actually was) was a vote for BL moderators. Such a vote would be held before each new season, and each clan would put forth a candidate or two (or so) from their ranks. Ghost Recon clans would provide candidates for Ghost Recon Ladder mods, and RS clans would provide candidates for RS Ladder mods. All clans on the respective ladders would get one vote each. The candidates who got the most votes would become mods for that season.

     Such a system would have certain advantages: it would ensure that the League's blood was kept fresh, it would lessen accusations of biased mods, by increasing the feel of self-governance it would lessen the "us against them" mentality which sometimes crops up when dealing with the mods, and most importantly, the shorter duration of service would save the mods' sanity.

     Joka, reading your post cracked me up: great minds think alike, eh? : D

No problem, I'll try to explain it a little more clear.

If any clan beat the first place clan (in that 20 clan league) they would get 210 points.  If any clan, including the first place clan, beat the 15th place clan (in that same league), they would get 60 points (that clan's purse points).  Ranks are decided by total points.

So if the fist place team keeps CB'in mid ranked teams, they are only getting about half the points of say the third ranked team beating the second ranked team.

The other option that was discussed was for the clans to get the combined total of both purses, but I'm not a fan of that system (but figured since we talked about it, I should post it).

Again, CAUTION, EVEN LENGTHIER THAN THE LAST POST!  READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!

   I know many of you out there have toyed with the idea of a Battle League Council in your heads, but I think my original idea should be clarified to show my intent.  I suggested a council of sorts to help more clans to take an active role in the Battle League that they participate in.  Below I will outline what I think the ?council? should entail.  It is not complicated, nor is it convoluted, and it should also be noted that this is intended for the Ghost Recon Ladder.  To have a council made up of mostly Ghost Recon clans, and then in turn make decisions affecting other ladders and the clans in the ladders in which they participate would not make sense at all.  Read on, and you will understand, but make sure that if you do not understand something, read it again.  I am sure I will make my intent more clear this time around.  

*DAMN Battle League ? Ghost Recon Council v1.0

   First off I would like to state that I believe this will work due to the large number of clans who participate in the Ghost Recon Ladder.  I know that with RS and R6, there are fewer clans and this plan would most likely not benefit their ladders? in any way whatsoever.  

Purpose:   The role of the Council would be to give suggestions on how to make the Ghost Recon gaming experience a more enjoyable atmosphere, and also to vote upon those suggestions, making new rules, updating older rules, and/or taking out a rule altogether.  Since the players of Ghost Recon know what they want, why not let them decide upon the parameters that they wish to play with?

?  Who can participate in the council?  Only one representative from each clan may be on the council itself.  This person may be the clan leader, or a representative from their clan who has been chosen by clan members to represent their clan in the council.  Only one person from each clan may be on the council and they must be registered with the Battle League.  These members should also be respected not only in their own clan, but in the Ghost Recon community as well.  If not, these members should realize that they are representing their clan in the best way that they can.

?  Can a clan change who represents them?  Yes, but there are limits.  Since the seasons are lengthy, it would be improper to force a clan to have the same person represent them.  The reason against forcing a clan to do so is easily summed up in one sentence.  ?What if the council member of a clan quits the clan??  If this happens, which it does, there must be a way to substitute a new council member.  If a council member chooses to leave the council, a substitute for that clan must be registered within one week of the time at which the former council member quit (168 Hours GMT).  If this is not decided upon during that week?s time, that clan?s chair will be voided for the rest of the season.  Only extreme circumstances would allow for more time than the period of one week (i.e.: council member quits their clan, and then the substitute quits their clan, not allowing enough time for a new substitute to register.

?  What are the powers of the council members?  A council member can:  Vote yes, vote no, abstain from a vote, submit a ?new rule? proposal, submit a ?change of existing rule? proposal, and submit a ?deletion of current rule? proposal.  This is the only power the council members are afforded.

?  What powers are the council members not afforded? Mauti still decides if a person or an entire clan is disbanded.  Mauti and the moderators would still decide upon cheat accusations.  Mauti and the moderators would still regulate the forums as they see fit.  Council members cannot suggest banning a person or clan from the BL.  

?  Is there a moderator for the council?  Yes.  The number of moderators needed would be based on the need for them.  The moderators? duties would include:  Enforcing the rules that regulate the council.  Deleting improper submissions of proposals.  Deleting proposals not submitted within the allotted time for submitting proposals.  Keeping track of all statistics for the voting process.  
?  Who gets to vote?  And how much is their vote worth?  Each clan gets one vote.  Every clan has a different number of members, but this should not change the weight of a clan?s vote.  Some of the best clans out there have a ton of members, and some of the worst have very few.  If you look up the memberships of every clan, you will see that this works both ways as well.  Some of the best clans do not have many members, and some of the worst have a ton of members.  This basically averages out.  This is more closely aligned with the United States Senate than the House of Representatives.  I believe the Senate helps to balance what power a smaller clan has.  If votes were based upon the number of members in the clan, any clan could recruit as many members as they could, just for the purpose of obtaining a higher vote value in the council.  This is why I believe a one-clan, one-vote policy would work more efficiently.  A council member can vote yes, no, or abstain, BUT you may only abstain 5 times during the season.  More than 5 abstained votes will void that council member?s clan from participating in the council for the rest of the season.  THIS IS FOR EACH PROPOSAL, NOT FOR EACH WEEK.  Therefore, if a council member misses voting during a particular week, and there were 5 or more proposals, their chair would be voided.  Since there are 3 days in which to vote, I cannot see how difficult it is to vote during the allotted time.

?  When can proposals be submitted?  All proposals must be submitted on Sunday between 00.00 GMT and 23.59 GMT.  Attempts to submit proposals at any other time will either be deleted or denied at the time of submission.  

?  When can submitted proposals be voted on?  The voting process takes place during all hours of Monday, Tuesday, & Wednesday during GMT time.  This leaves Thursday, Friday, and Saturday for clan leaders to address their clans as to the updated rules, if any.

?  How does a proposal pass?  Simple.  In order for a proposal to pass, the proposal must have at least two-thirds of the council?s vote, or 0.667%.  This does not mean that it will pass with two-thirds of yes or no votes.  Council members who abstain from a vote are more or less voting no if they do not vote.

?  When does a passed proposal take effect?  Any proposals that have been passed take effect on the first Sunday after the completion of the voting process.  As stated above, clan leaders have ample time to contact their members and make them aware of the new rules; new rules that would be posted on the forum of course.

?  How do you submit a proposal?  The proposals are simple.  If a council member decides to submit a proposal, it must be in a completed form intended for insertion into the current rules.  Example:  If I wanted to propose giving clans the choice to use either 5 minute or 10 minute clan battles during the season, I would have to state the rule clearly, state the reason or why the rule is needed, and state the overwhelming benefits, which would outweigh the negative aspects if any.  I would write my proposal in this fashion:

Clans may choose between a 5 minute or 10 minute clan battle.  The clans could decide before the clan battle takes place, very similar to how a best of 7 or best of 10 games is decided.  The clans can either agree or not, but once a decision has been made, the entire clan battle would be in 5 or 10-minute increments.   The reason why this is needed is to reduce the time in a clan battle.  At current, a best of 10 clan battle takes at least an hour.  This rule would cut that time in half.  Some of the benefits include:  Not as much time to camp.  If a clan does camp, the opposing clan only has to wait 5 minutes.  Game play would theoretically move 50% faster since the games are 50% shorter.  3-hour clan battles would be more of a choice than a requirement.  

?  How many times can a council member submit a proposal?  In order to keep the number of proposals within adequate parameters, each council member is allowed to submit 4 proposals per season.  This might seem low, but if there are 31 clans, like there were last season, that means 93 proposals could be submitted during the season.  If a proposal is submitted, that counts towards the 3 submissions allowed per season, meaning any improper submissions that are deleted by the moderator will count against that council member?s 3 submission limit.  This also prevents council members from submitting frivolous proposals, because they would lose their chance to submit proposals that they really wanted.  

?  What happens if a council member does not follow the rules?  If a council member is in direct violation of the rules, their chair will be terminated, and their clan will not be allowed to vote upon or submit proposals for the remainder of that season.  Abstaining from more than 5 votes per season would be one of the reasons for losing their chair for the season.

?  Where are the proposals posted?  The proposals are posted in the Proposals Forum, which can only be accessed by council members.  This is the forum in which council members can place votes and submit proposals.  This forum will also show the statistics of the council members: how many proposals they have submitted, how many votes (yes, no, or abstained), if this member has been warned by the moderator or not, and which proposals they have voted, and how they voted upon those proposals.  No secret votes.  Also, when a proposal is posted, it will be given a proposal number.  

Example of Proposal Numbers:  CP1.1 = Council Proposal week 1, proposal 1.  The second proposal made during that week would be CP1.2, and so on.  The numbers are specific to when the proposal was made, not who made it.

?  What if a council member posts something other than a proposal in the proposals forum?  The moderator will delete that post and issue a warning to that member.  A council member will void their chair upon the second warning.  One warning is enough.  The proposal forum is for proposals and voting only.  These warnings would also be shown in the members? statistics.  


     In closing, I believe that this council would be very useful.  It would take some time to implement, but I feel that if it is implemented, most of the framework has already been posted above.  Again, this council would only be for rules proposals.  The main forum would still be used for personal attacks, flame wars, clan bashing, and Ghost Recon bashing.  Only registered council members could log into the proposals forum.  Also, I feel that this council is needed so that many of the clans who barely participate will participate more by knowing the rules, and getting to know the leaders from other clans.  There is no reason why the BL?s Ghost Recon Ladder can?t be friendlier towards all members.  I think it all starts with the leaders, and poor leaders reflect poorly upon the clans that they represent.

     Thank you all for taking the time to peruse this little proposal of mine.  I just think it is about time that the clans participate and have an active role in other aspects of the Battle League that they are a part of.  

     --- |n|`Noto

Although I have'nt started playing GhR yet, I started out thinking this council thing was an egotistical move to make ppl think they have some power over other ppl or clans. But now I believe this to be a good idea since there are many clans in the BL it is important for those of you who participate in it to have a voice of reason. Mauti and his crew may be the originators of this BL and for that we are all thankful, but he has had a hard time taking others opinions and making requested changes that affect the game. Because of this I have seen many clans drop out of the RS ladder because their voice was never heard or paid attention to. But at the same time you cannot have revolving rules and regulations, the rules and such need to be set at the beginning of the BL and last the entire session.

The council of members should get together with Mauti after all of their voting and suggestions are complete and submit them to him, as if he were the President. This should be taken care of during the time after the BL has ended and before the next is begun. At this time Mauti would reserve the right to accept or veto any or all submissions. This is because it would not be hard for ppl to team up and wreck things, or to just make rules they like.

Good luck and I hope to see you in the next season once my new comp arrives I will be able to run GhR and I am looking forward to combat.

*TF6_Kilzo*

     The Council section of the forum should be viewable by all forum members, but (of course) only Council members should have posting rights in that section. It's better to allow the clans the ability to not only see what's on the docket, but to keep an eye on their councilmen.

     Scheduled matchups in a round-robin or tournament form are the best solution, one that would fix virtually every problem with the BL in one fell swoop. Not to mention that there are very well-established precedents for any problem that arises with such a system.

     Here's the problems, the reasons why we aren't already using a scheduling system. First, the biggest problem, we don't have enough competitors. We're a tiny league. In a PC gaming league, with hundreds of clans, scheduling isn't too much of a problem, because there is always someone else to play. Second and more damningly, our clans just don't want to participate in scheduled battles. The BL is not a high enough priority in most of our lives to make us want to switch to a scheduled system. Yes, a scheduled system would be the best solution. No, it will never be adopted. Thus our consideration of alternatives which capture as many of the scheduled system's benefits as possible without requiring schedules. ::shrug::

Just on a side note, I'm one of those guys that thinks it would be better to vote on the BL Mods (and have separate mods for RS and GhR).

And it has nothing to do with the current Mods either, since I have absolutely no complaint about the job they've done.  The reason I'm saying it is because I'm looking at what the Council solution is trying to solve, and wondering how it will ever get anything done.  

I mean, spell it out.  You don't create a solution like this without it being to address a problem(s).  So what are they?  

1) to get more clans involved - fix bad leadership.  How will this fix bad leadership?  If a clan leader doesn't log on now, get to know people now, how will him blowing of the council change anything?  You can't make it mandatory, not if you want real participation.

2) make clans friendlier.  How will this make clans more friendly towards each other?  The clans interaction will still be on the forums and in GameRanger, where most of it already is.  

3) to let clans have a more active role in the league.  Ok, it's more active, I'll give you that.  But why?  Is Mauti not doing a good job?  Or the Mods?  A good job but not good enough?  Are they not listening?

Here's my take on it.  Mauti is listening to all our suggestions, and doing it well.  Most of the people here would take it as a personal attack the way this stuff keeps coming up.  He hasn't.  

Do I think that the scoring system and rules need to be changed.  Yes.  And I've posted my thoughts about them.  

But, and this is a big but (the kind of but so big if it were on a woman Jeb would be looking like he had a kick stand).  I do not want to be part of a league that has the need to change rules this often.  You are talking about rule changes that COULD happen every week.  That would bug the living shit out of me.  One of the problems I already have is that the rules change too often in the middle of a season.  My own opinion on it is, unless it's a huge problem, all rule changes should wait till the following season.  But stuff like how often you CB, who can CB, how many, if PC's are allowed, etc.  All that should wait for the following season.

If you agree with that, there is a much more simple solution.  Ask Mauti to keep a thread or a new forum just to keep track and discuss suggestions for improvements to the BL.  Just to make it easier to keep track of.  

Then, if you want to make the clans feel like they are more involved, or make sure they aren't being screwed over by the Mods, let the clans vote on who the BL Mods are for the Season.  Personally, VooDoo and Dr No would still get my vote, as I think they have done fine, and if they want to do it, more power to them.  But I think that's a much easier way to empower clans and make them feel involved.  

     Well, the idea behind the council was hardly to be a governing board. Mauti and the mods would still have as much power as they have now, it's just that there would be a formal system in place for clans to put their two cents in.

     That said, I'm tending to lean away from the Council idea now. I think Bucc hit it on the head the other night when the MPs were talking about this stuff on NF: the Council would be too complicated, and would therefore just add new problems. Based on Bucc's statements in the other Council thread, voting for mods would accomplish much of what the Council is supposed to do, with much less overhead.

     You're right, 26, a meeting of clans to discuss fixes for issues encountered this season would be a good idea. However, any new scoring system that is put into place, such as the purse points system, should fix most of the existing problems by itself, or else there's no point to installing a new system. Hopefully we will have a resolution on what the new scoring system will be before the next season, so that the clans can discuss it with full knowledge.

Um, eight, did you happen to read where I point out places it can be abused?

You may have re-read it, but you haven't answered any of the points.  Let's see, I mentioned the problem with your timer and what if BS happens and the CB doesn't go off.  I mentioned how #1 could lose often on your system, and still be #1.  And I pointed out that most of what you are talking about isn't about the Rank system, but about a challenge feature.  

Want more?  Everyone challenges #1.  Clans ranked 2 - 10.  So 1 picks and chooses which ones he'll take, avoiding the ones he's afraid of.  The second ranked clan never get's the chance.  All the 1st ranked clan has to do is stay active, remember?

Ok, then you add a rule that says they go down if they don't accept a challenge.  All 10 clans challenge them.  What can they do?  Then you add a rule about one challenge at a time, hmm, so now there is a different limiter.

And so far, I'm only talking about the challenge system.  Like I said eight, you should have stuck around when we were discussing the problems before you ran off and made the BTs League.

Other problems, 3 beats 1 and doesn't move into first (even if they have more wins / better record).  5 beats 1, etc.

No, the problem is that a rank only based system (like boxing and tennis) is based off something you don't have.  A governing body that actually does the ranking.  That is the biggest flaw.  You are modeling a system of ranking without putting everything in place for it.  I pointed this out months ago.  Also, in your examples of ranked based systems, you do go down for losing.

That's when we got the bright idea that basically, the skill points should be based off rank, and not a formula that depends on the overall score of the clans.  We needed something to replace the people that judge rank.  And we kept looking at our prime example, boxing.  The other thing we noticed about boxing is that the purse is usually tied to rank.  And there you have it.

By basing the skill points (we call purse points to distinguish them) on rank, you lose the problem that a clan can sit back and fight a bunch of low ranked clans at the end and still get max points for it.  Right now, if I don't CB till near the end, I can still get the maximum points against anyone.  And I can do that a few times without having to actually face the top clan(s).  Because it's based on points, and my having low points since I haven't CB'd makes it advantageous for me.  Another thing is that the number 1 clan gets the same amount of points for CB'ing anyone.  It's more attractive for them to CB low ranked clans under the current system.  And under your system too (and don't bring up the challenge system, because we are talking about how ranking is done).  With purse points, if they want to stay on top, they have to fight good clans.

Bottom line.  A Rank system where you move up halfway and don't lose ground makes it too easy to stay on top.  You can lose and lose and lose, and still be #1.