Omg, I did the dirty deed!

[BFG]

OH man its a hippy. quick ignore them as being a sensless idiot. cool end of conversation.

Kinda bypassing the whole fact that cars and dogs do not primarily exist to kill people. guns do.

in short, stop worrying about everyone else, life is too short to worry about what everyone else has, just move along and push down those that are weaker.

Was looking for the [sarcasm] tags. couldn't find them..... ??

[BTs_FahQ2]

not sarcasm.....just life

[BFG]

yeah life's much happier if you decide that its ok to get by by stamping on the guy below you.

Damn that quote says a lot about American Foreign politics.

[Cell]

BFG  ....not everyone who owns a gun intends to kill someone or something with it.  Peace of mind maybe, protection.  Coming from Semi-Urban NY, the reason for me to own a gun would be protection straight up. if some gangsta mother f**cker decided to break and enter in my house where soon I will have a newborn baby sleeping in it along with my little wifey.   I sure as hell can bet you that one of those disgraces to society will be carrying a piece.  Unregistered and untraceable.  Oh sure some of you may say give him what he wants and let him go. I have wrestled with the thought of a home protection device such as a shotgun...where hopefully all you need to do is cock the shotty to scare off any would be shitsucker. For now I will rely on my 90lb PitBull and a Louisville slugger, but my opinions may change after the brth of my 1st child in August. 

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Damn that quote says a lot about American Foreign politics.

By American Foreign Politics, you ACTUALLY mean, says alot about THREE power hungry men who happen to be in control at the moment..

Three men. thats it...

remember that as you continually paint us individuals with the broad brush of greed, and imperialsm of those three men...

Speaking of American Hippie Idots, (who rightfully deserve some igoring), in this discussion,who are all for assigning more rights and protections and respect to an illegal gun-wielding CRIMINALS with murderous intent... Please, be accurate and educated enough to assign some BLAME to those liberal hippie idiots for the Americn foreigh Policy you seem to Hate so much.....

Becuase it is ENTIRELY and 100% their fault that america has not developed its OWN oil resources, energy alternatives such as Wind Farms and Nuclear energy (they single handedly stopped the development on all THREE fronts)...placing us at the mercy of the hunt for foreign sources of petroleum.
And those loving Hippies placed us directly into the path of war over energy resources...how loving and insightful of them..

Keep that in mind when you get upset that they are not universally hugged for their progressive thinking...

The gun issue is just another avenue for them to demonstrate their contempt for the average american, and his right to protect himself.

Care to discuss death rates from Automobiles and Alcohol?

id venture so say that an item that purports to be one thing (ie alcohol=entertainment) but yields an entirely different manifestation..(crime, voilence, and car accidents) is far more insidious than an object whose use/purpose is readily admitted upfront...

No one seems ready to place any blame on alcohol, or rail aginst it in public forums, when infact, its consumption is involved in 80% of ALL crime/deaths worldwide (including britain), and 70% of automobile accidnts...and often provides liquid courage to those said gun toting criminals to encourage them to go ahead to commit their acts.. How large the outrage against alcohol? hardly proportionate...so we're witnessing SELECTIVE outrage aimed at the right to bear arms..made easier by the fact that those rights are found in AmeriKa the Horrible...

Talk about guns and self protection and we end up in the realm of coddling the criminal and taking shots at americans and their politics...

Now THERES a conversation ender..

[BTs_FahQ2]

BFG you went silly,

if my quote stood for american foreign politics, then we wouldn't have any. Notice the part that says "stop worrying about everyone else", well if we did that we wouldn't be in half the shit we are now. "And pushes the weak down?" yes, america's humanitarian aid is pushing down the weak. 

Now in a literal sense, yes it is okay to stamp on those below me. It doesn't mean i get off on it like a power hungry idiot, but that is basically how you advance in life. I'm sorry to break it to you, but life in a humanistic sense is competition. The job doesn't go to the one who says "oh you first", you don't get a patent for lending out designs in the spirit of equality and companies don't survive by dispersing all profits to it's employees.

Yes it is sad that guns exist at all and that they are used to kill, but if not guns there are other resources available. People are people and people that kill do so for whatever reasons they had at the time. Just like wars and killing on a mass scale existed before guns, it will continue to exist long after.

[Macuber]

Seriously....plEASE! with this hippie  bullshit.

Hippie BS? Let me introduce myself. I have fired every weapon that was in the USMC.. way before you were even a wetspot on your folks bed.

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

Guns were a creation in a time of barbarism when tools like that were necessary for progress.


That same barbarism (that hasn't weeded itself out of human society for generations) is the reason why guns are still around....and still needed.

[Cell]

No one seems ready to place any blame on alcohol, or rail aginst it in public forums, when infact, its consumption is involved in 80% of ALL crime/deaths worldwide (including britain), and 70% of automobile accidnts...and often provides liquid courage to those said gun toting criminals to encourage them to go ahead to commit their acts.. How large the outrage against alcohol? hardly proportionate...so we're witnessing SELECTIVE outrage aimed at the right to bear arms..made easier by the fact that those rights are found in AmeriKa the Horrible...

Right on BFG....alcohol is far and away a more serious problem than our society lets on.  And Marijuana is illegal!!! What hypocracy!!!  Imagine the crime rate if say weed was legal and alcohol was illegal.  I can for shit sure guarnatee that violent crimes would drop. You know how many bar fights break out because some drunk guido meathead can't handle his alcohol?  It would be funny to see if these bars serving alcohol were packing hukkas with Northern Lights, instead of Budweisers and Jello shots!

The British don't drink much do they?  I would hate to be caught at one of those English football games wearing the wrong teams' jersey after a couple of lummoxes tie one on by the way of a few gallons of Guiness.

Now for the Amerika the Horrible comment.....  Amerika the Horrible that millions of immigrants stream to every year, just to get a taste of.  The Country that when others have crisis, look to for help and support.  Now of course the media will never let on that we actually do some good during our "global romping and raping and pillaging"(theres your sarcastic insert). Real life is hard to apply the "puppy dogs and ice cream" way of thinking.  It would be nice, but unrealistic.  WE may be the most powerful nation in the world, but it is not something to be embarrased about.  Look around the globe, there are far worse things to be than American.

Just to curb your media strewn view of this place and the gun policy.  Of all the people I know ...family and friends, I would venture to say that only say 1 in 20 own some sort of firearm.  I no of no one that has been involved in a gun related incident.  We do have the right to bear arms, but normal everyday American citizens don't just assume thier right for this and go out and buy guns like cigarrettes.  I also happen to live on the north-east coast. I don't think this is a much of an issue here as it is in some other parts of the country.   I do however appreciate the fact that if I felt it necessary to go out and buy a gun for my protection, that I could at any given time.  I would do it the right way. Fill out the paperwork, apply for a license and purchase a gun that would be registered with my government. Fully legal. I would probably never fire it outside of a gun range situation, and I would hope I never have to.

The funny thing is that a lot of these people that fight for gun control, are the same people that would be crying bloody murder if we where to ammend any part of the Constitution that would take away one of the rights that they feel is appropriate.  I am not a gun nut, I am not necessarily for guns, I would never hunt (i feel animals are more innocent than any person walking around), I don't even own one.  Responsibility ultimately lands on the individual.  What might be a good idea is severe and harsh penalties for people that misuse, mishandle and are irresponsible with thier guns. I am not sure about our legal policy on this. But like drunk drivers, we have raised the penalties for it, but it still occurs.  I  would never drive drunk, so there is another example of individual responsiblity. 

The first time I ever thought about buying a gun was last summer, when there was a string of ab out 20-30 homeinvasions within a 20 mile radius of where I live. THis happened in the middle of the day, while people were home, at night not so late when people were awake.  The heat must have come down hard, because it has stopped for now.  If it continued, I can bet sure as shit that I would have picked me up a shotty. It would be much safer if we could still walk around with swords and bows and arrows, but the ones usually looking to do harm are not carrying rapiers, usually its a GAT.  I could bet they didn't buy it in the store that would be shut down if we were to controll the firearms.

Sorry if it looks like the rambling of a crazy person...one large coffee, no breakfast, and trying to respond quickly at work....and I don't have a good conversation ender.

[BFG]

Hold on i can't post properly yet, other than a few knickers got in a twist, i didn't explain myself completely before, and Cell you've got your quotes messed up matey, i'll respond asap heh.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

A case of Silly Cell Anemia..

That was my post you quoted, hunny...in answer to bfg.



ps. i sounded more knicker twisted than i really was...
(sorry for the 'be more accurate and educated' part).
i fully enjoy our debates, and respect all your views..

Its just that in reference to american politics..thers but a handful of americans that support what our administration is doing (across the board), and if we could vote tomorrow..youd see the surprising heart of america in that vote..trust me on this.

pss... in reference to gun ownership saturation, to give some geographical comparison..i live in the south opposed to cells NE, and id venture to say that fully 95% of all our households contain guns..legally, and safely held. Its more culturally embraced here, due to large cities being spread out (100+ miles between them), whereas they are packed shoulder to shoulder in cells part of the country. Guns are a way of life in the rural/semi rural south..whereas it is less so in the north, northeast, and west coast..

[Cell]

Just look at the number of posts I have.  I am a shit stinking spawn camping noob that's first kit pick in GhR would be the MG3 support rifle.  I was trying to quote what I thought was BFG...and now my giant reply's effectiveness has gone to shit.  This time I will manually quote Sheix....."i fully enjoy our debates, and respect all your views."  Never misconceive my tone...I feel exactly the same way.  BFG you classy bastard...the U.N could seriously use a diplomat such as yourself. Sheix...cut that mullet.

[BFG]

Ahahahaha i love you guys far to much

• Shiex i must appologies to you and all other intelligent respectable Americans who i insult with my angry emotional brush strokes of generalisation. I keep doing it but not for one moment do i really think of you as being all the same. I know some of you guys are the most intelligent respectable and caring people, and i mean you no ill. It is Bush and his cronies, and those who support many of his beliefs that I struggle with - and even then not all i must stress. Not all.


Its hard to understand quite what its like to be in such fear for your/your familys safety for you to feel the need to have a gun. It simply isn't the case here. We don't have guns full stop. We have small teams of Armed rapid responce police units, and occasionally we have crimes which involve fire arms. But they are rare - main news headline events that don't happen. The public dosn't have guns, most of the criminal fraternity don't have guns. The public dosn't need them because nobody can have them so for criminals to be able to acquire them is hard. So forgive me but it is very hard to understand.
Hard to understand also is this idea that everyone must have the 'right' to own a weapon to kill others. Yes Cars kill people, cigarettes, alcohol, cancer etc etc... but Guns are soley for the purpose to kill. You don't have Native Indians threatening your colonies anymore, or British soldiers... I don't know quite how i can put this.. maybe thats enough.
I guess i can't accept this "its my god given right" argument.

* Giving up your 'right' to own an UZI is different from giving up your right to a fair trial, or to know that your government isn't secretly tapping your phones etc.

And please don't get me wrong. Guns have a purpose and i understand that there are times and people who need them. - be it professional hunters farmers customs and excise, Drugs enforcement or whatever. But do i think that Joe next door should be allowed to keep a AK74 in his cabinet? No. nobody should.

Which is going to result in more deaths? Not allowing anyone to have guns or allowing everyone? its pretty obvious. Im not saying its easy, just pretty clear.

Regarding Alchohol i totally agree with many parts of what you've said. Having worked as a Bouncer/DoorMan i've been right in the thick of seeing what to much Alchohol can do to people. But its never just alchohol. Its the same with Guns you might say, and i'd agree. But my argument is that it comes down to society and peoples behaviour and attitude towards others thats at the core of it. Much harder to change, but removing things like guns makes it easier. Alcohol in moderation fine, alcohol in not much moderation not quite so fine.. agressive group of young men and alcohol = BFG laying some smack down on the door.
And if you add a gun/s to the mix? well its an easy answer it = BFG in hospital/morgue.

Im rambling on sorry. i should be sleeping.

Its just that in reference to american politics..thers but a handful of americans that support what our administration is doing (across the board), and if we could vote tomorrow..youd see the surprising heart of america in that vote..trust me on this.

Yeah i know mate, and i think you know i know that. I just forget that people might not know i know that and thus i skip a bit and generalise Sorry...

oh too many knows in there i know.

As for this one:

Becuase it is ENTIRELY and 100% their fault that america has not developed its OWN oil resources, energy alternatives such as Wind Farms and Nuclear energy (they single handedly stopped the development on all THREE fronts)...placing us at the mercy of the hunt for foreign sources of petroleum.

I can't comment on the Hippy behaviour there i have nothing to go on. I worry about your 'hippy' population however if they are blocking wind farms. Nuclear energy i can understand the worry about - we're having that very argument over here at the moment. As for drilling in Alaska and destroying the wildlife reserves....

Comes down to a change in Society - if people are prepared not to believe its their god given right to drive a 4 ton 6litre sports utility 'wagon' , or to live in the middle of the desert with a 400 foot cooled swimming pool then the energy consumption wouldn't be so high...

It comes down to societys attitudes again, and by no means am i arguing that America is the only one with a lot of monsters under the bed, monsters that need to be pulled out and addressed... quite litterally before the lights turn out!!

On that note i need my beauty sleep! 

[Mr. Lothario]

Hard to understand also is this idea that everyone must have the 'right' to own a weapon to kill others. Yes Cars kill people, cigarettes, alcohol, cancer etc etc... but Guns are soley for the purpose to kill. You don't have Native Indians threatening your colonies anymore, or British soldiers... I don't know quite how i can put this.. maybe thats enough.
I guess i can't accept this "its my god given right" argument.

* Giving up your 'right' to own an UZI is different from giving up your right to a fair trial, or to know that your government isn't secretly tapping your phones etc.

And please don't get me wrong. Guns have a purpose and i understand that there are times and people who need them. - be it professional hunters farmers customs and excise, Drugs enforcement or whatever. But do i think that Joe next door should be allowed to keep a AK74 in his cabinet? No. nobody should.

     As much as I don't want to sound like GS, I agree with the right to bear arms.

     I think there may be a fundamental difficulty for people from other countries in understanding an American's relationship to his government. The Founding Fathers had just finished a war that was a very risky gamble, a gamble undertaken to gain freedom from the whims of a tyrant who gave the colonists no say in their own governance. Through courage, luck, and balls the size of coconuts (not to mention the Virginia militia, the first snipers in American history), the colonists won the war and spent a long, hot summer hammering out a nation. The fundamental principle running through the Constitution is one of mistrust for government and governors. By way of example, the American bicameral legislature and three independent-but-intertwined branches of government (executive, legislative, judicial) were specifically concieved to be as inefficient as possible while still being functional, because the Founding Fathers reasoned that a government which expended all its energies on infighting would have little energy left for screwing its subjects. The mistrust of power and those who hold it is deep-seated in the American psyche.

     The right to bear arms was another move by the Founding Fathers to limit the maximum power of the government. If the country's rulers ever got uppity, they'd have to deal with an armed populace before they got their way. Of course, advancing military technology has very much changed the equation. Even so, a well-armed modern populace could put up a decent, if doomed, fight.

     At this point in history, the right to bear arms is more a psychological pacifier than a tool against government tyranny, but the intent of the Founding Fathers still holds merit--a weak government and strong populace limits the injustice the government can inflict.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Great way to put that Loth, and Id only make one further distinction, in that we dont feel that its a god given right, to us, its a constitutionally granted right..once aimed at an overpowering govt, but now directed at overpowering criminality..  (futher bolstered by the large population that lives in country areas where hunting for necessity is only obsolete by fifty to seventy years...and cultuaral habits are hard to break.) Becuase when we fought the British, fully half, if not more, of the guns used were privately held weapons...

Further, In most sparsely populated southern states hunting is still a huge past time. Yes you can bring up the ak 47/assault rifle stuff again, but hunters dont use them, and ak47 holders are few and far between comparitively..they just get most of the attention.

All of its ingrained and mushed together in a widely agreed upon american cultural phenomenon, and even the maverick city/crime usage is but PERHAPS representative of 3% of overall gunholders, therefore THOSE justifications never even cross the mind of the average gunholder (rendering that version of opposition negligable)..however, the sport/constitutional aspects still do.
You just dont hear about the law abiding ones, becuase they arent shooting anyone.

[BFG]

Two cracking posts, i can't argue with those. We'll agree to disagree but i can understand where you guys are coming from, and like i've said, and loth you now also said, it is hard to understand when you live in a gun free society.

I guess the only thing i would add is that if your constitution does allow private gun ownership etc, I wouldn't want anyone under 21, hell make it 25 being allowed anywehre near a gun. I don't think people should be able to drive till they're 21 considering how many young kids kill themselves and others, but guns...  I just think that more could be done to make sure that guns aren't shot in anger - or by accident!

[KGB]

Great way to put that Loth, and Id only make one further distinction, in that we dont feel that its a god given right, to us, its a constitutionally granted right..once aimed at an overpowering govt, but now directed at overpowering criminality.

So I gather that the crime rate in the US is going down then ?

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

For those armed when home invaders call? Yes. Drops that number to near 100% for those dumb enough to assault a household that is armed...break, enter, die. There are local newspaper articles monthly of burglars wounded or killed for picking the wrong home.
Home invasions are down in texas alone by 22% over 1995 numbers.
*Texas statistics begin in 2002 (when the concealed carry laws were enacted, meaning trained and certiffied citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons)...and extend thru 2005.
For those armed when carjackers call? Yes. Down 16%

The carry law is not enacted in all 50 states..so i cannot speak for those states that do not have this law.

For those using ILLEGAL guns in the commision of crimes/commercial robbery induced by drugs and alcohol? No.
For gang related crimes, also again using ILLEGAL weapons (meaning stolen or obtained illegally) No.
Petty crimes such as property theft, no.

Jailed offenders asked about their habits referred extensively to the carry laws as their reasons from turning from home burglary and carjacking to vehicular burglary and straight auto theft.
Taking the chance of surpriseing an armed homeowner became too risky.

[Mr. Lothario]

     BFG, in my opinion, it's all about the training. I am absolutely in favor of more training for people who wish to engage in a potentially dangerous activity, which activities include both driving and shooting. The sort of people who flip their SUVs over the highway divider into oncoming traffic and crush five vehicles before sliding to a stop are generally the same sort of people whose kids shoot themselves while playing with their gun--they're people trained merely as operators, not as skilled practitioners. Ever since I spent eighteen months pizza driving, and witnessed firsthand the difference between being a driver and being an operator, I've had a fantasy where every driver on the road must spend at least six consecutive months holding a driving job. Ah, it is to dream. Anyhow, I feel the same about gun ownership: a skilled, well-trained shooter, of any age, would be much less prone to do the stupid things that give legitimate gun owners a bad name.

     Regarding concealed-carry laws, again, I'm all in favor. Personal crimes like mugging become far less appealing to criminals or potential criminals because of the gamble involved. Namely, "who is safe to rob?"

     I have read several times the opinion that the culture of dueling was the root cause of the American South's cultural habit of extreme, formal politeness. That culture has waned over the decades from its peak, circa the Civil War, but was so deeply ingrained that to this day it is not uncommon in the South to address men as "sir". In short, if there is a real risk of injury or death from rudeness, politeness is a survival trait. If that link is a true one, it's one more point in favor of concealed-carry, in my opinion. You're much less likely to be a dick to someone who just might be capable of ventilating you, and America could do with a return to politeness.