*DAMN R6 Forum

When will we realize how much of a mistake we are making . . .

Some will say we can't pull out now but are we really making progress? - I smell similarities to Vietnam, will this new publicity that the war is getting prompt Americans to get of their living room couches and protest?

It has to start somewhere Shade, what about you? Are you willing to stand by the mall handing out anti war flyers?

Yeah, you better get busy handing out anti-war flyers, because you have guys like me out there actively supporting the war.  And trust me, I do a GREAT job on that front.  ;)

My point being, it's okay to believe in what you want to believe in...but do something about it!  Don't sit by and let things happen and then complain when things don't go the way you wanted. 

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."

Mohandas Gandhi said that.

That's a nice quote, I guess I don't have the rallying power to get a group of people to "March on Washington", not like Bush would give a shit anyway.

Voluneteering takes commitment and passion - neither of which I have, heh.  Nobody else has seemed to really care about what we're doing over there thus far except for a small group yet so many opposed the war when we started.

That's why generation Y blows no one is willing to make a change.

Man, that's just too good. I really don't think Ghandi was talking about war support when he said that.

he's saying that ghandi encouraged actively doing something about the things you care about rev, for or against the war. which is true, we would get so much further if all the people who sit at home and go "well shit." when they watch the news instead were out petitioning, or donating money, or volunteering, etc. it's good that we take the initiative to discuss this online, but we shouldn't just leave it at that!

but yeah, i turned on CNN at approx. 2am whilst studying and heard them report that... a sad day.

As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure he was taling about the exact opposite...

Just another 58,000 american casualties and we're there!

Well, thats what the lawyers are for.
Those 58,000 families got compensated.

These families..families of your friends and BROTHERS,
get a great big ole FUCK YOU from the the government that put them in that position.
With NO means for compensation.

And you think Im wrong?
Go ask any vet that sat in Walter Reed for Six Months waiting for hands..or feet, or glass eyes.
I know four. They are enraged Now. But the werent before they were sent, becuase they bought the argument. And they reacted (heroicly) as their training forced them to. They didnt question, they didnt complain. But now..when they look for the justification..cant find a legitimate one. (or they realize that the reasons were valid, but were lied to about what they actually were) As legitimate as it may be (securing oil) the guys i know..didnt sign up to protect oil. They signed up to fight terrorism. Problem was, there wasnt any, until they arrived (in Iraq). Had they been told (as is actually the case) they are there to build bases to secure the supply of western oil for the next generation..they would have faced that information logically, and again heroically.

Im surprised how the anti war movement has been spun as unAmerican, unpatriotic and treasonous..when every single one of those protesters are thingking of YOUR friends when they mourn, or when they protest. After all, its not us civilians being thrown to the war machine. Not yet anyways...hell these protests are working at avoiding the likely possiblity that MANY of us are going to get to fight in the near future...
(Just as OUR government has adopted the premise that deposing leaders of aggressive countries is legitimate, stronger Military powers in the world are coming to the conclusion that they may have to do just that to STOP....US)

That time is coming Ghost, and you know it, and if you really are knowlegeable about the military (and Im positive you are) and you ever worked anywhere near our supply lines you know for a fact that we are spread too thin to fight back, and we cant smart Bomb our way out of every clash once we are attacked in earnest...unless we start nuking..god forbid.

So remember that when you, like many other guys who served are trained to do..frame an objection to military action as an attack on YOU or a liberal embrace of terrorism. It's not..that protest is in defense of YOU, your families, and loved ones. Being sent to die for a false pretense.

Our government, when they train you guys, by design need you to act without questioning. Becuase it is againt the human will to kill other humans...and this, this is an absolute necesarry training when the stakes are REAL. IRAQ wasnt real. (well, it is real, and even to my mind..somewhat valid) but it wasnt for the reasons we were told. If it was REALLY about terrorism, we would have marched thru pakistan with 300,00 troops, and found BinLaden. (its actaully about securing oil in the face of an islamic revolution-before china and Russia could secure iron clad agreements with the oil states...We KNOW that the Saudis are lying about their reserve qtys, and need other fields to rely on) same with Afghanistan..it was actually about securing the pipeline to an oil field and pipeline route that they presumed to be about 1300% bigger than they discovered it actually was. HAd that field contained what was predicted, Our main focus would STILL be afghanistan. And it also serves our purposes to PREVENT PanArab unity...you think $3.00/gall gas is expensive..how about 10....20? Not out of the question if or when they ever got unified in arms and purpose. So as much as I hat eto say it...it may be an evil necessity. Our economy (ALL western economies ) would absolutely crash under these circumstances...

So Europe, realise that too, when you point the finger at America and scream.>EVILLLL. We're actually bearing the financial and public relations burden for YOUR political and economic stabilty as well, believe it or not.

I think had the president said simply..ok, we are facing a touch choice. do we let oil fall into the hands of Islamic extremism, or do we protect our interests..the outrage you see, woulnt have NEAR the legs it does now. HAd we been told the truth that the Saudis CANNOT sustain the rates of production they are claiming, and that peak oil has come and gone, we would be far more inclined to see the self interest preservation in tackling those oil fields.. Instead, theres anger about the Lying, and the playing off politico social  motivation/persuasion models..becuase the Governemtn, much like the military feels that the public are ignorant ingrates who simply cannot grasp the gravity of such a serious situation..but they CAN understand the threat of "terrorists on our streets with suitcase Nukes and Anthrax. And they are illegitimately framing the protests under that "ingrate" premise..its much easier to paint protestors as treasonous terror sympathisers, than legitimate objectors. Its an easier sell, to corall them into an easy category to demonize. I mean Bushs quote about Cindy Sheehan is plenty telling..."im not talking to that godammned BITCH again" (screamed at aides during her protest in Crawford)

I wish they would have given us more credit, informed us of the tough decisions of the near future and let us CHOOSE to send the boys..not be tricked into it.

Thats where the outrage is coming from.
You should be flattered that people are mourning those 2000 soldiers who have all been taught that we are a bunch of liberal communist, soldier hating ingrates. It shows to me that America CITIZENS still have a soul, despite claims to the contrary, and despite the evident lack of said soul in our leadership. HAving Pat Robertson, and Billy Graham telling our leaders that God says Isreal is special, and that the Arabs are satan worshipers doesnt make either true. NOR does it make consequent action reflect ANYTHING that God had in mind for the Human Race...except maybe Armageddon..and thats becoming a disticnt possibility..Just read the writings of these freaks...

Hell, im surprised the Military isnt already in COUP mode, that the Neocons were able to hijack your patriotism and Christianity to smush the issues of Oil, patriotism, Terrorism, and freedom and GOD into a mud-pie thats so Dirty no one can actaully tell the real ingredients.

And that talk earlier in the post about just doing something...well..I can say with certaintly, that no gathering of democratic peacelovers will ever stop or slow down the war machine. A whole generation of hippies couldnt do it, and a million Mom march of loving,  caring war hating women couldnt do it..letters to Junior congressmen wont do it, and 'picking candidates with similar views" wont  do it.

All we can do thats worth a SHIT is wait for your guys in wheelchairs at the airports with tears, a handshake, and a guilty thanks for your service and sacrifice. Guilty becuase we now realize that we cant stop it for you.

Hey GS...

If you took all the medical advances we have made since Vietnam and applied them to the number of "casualties" we are bringing home compared to "dead" I'm afraid to tell you that our current number in Iraq would be a lot closer to 58,000 than you would hope.  Basically men come back now simply maimed for life and not straight up dead in the jungle but hey...it was all worth it right?  I mean Saddam was on the same level as Hitler no?


And regarding what you said about doing something about what you believe in.  Nearly 400,000 people marched and showed their displeasure for the Bush Administration nearly one year ago today.  And again on November 2 you will see another gathering of thousands in New York City showing their opposition.  You can't protest and not go to work everyday.  And when the media barely covers your movement it's hard to keep going back and back...  But we will keep trying.  Until people realize that terrorism comes in more forms than a Muslim extremist.

wow, great post shiex, some great stuff i agree hole heartedly with, and things like the economy etc relying on it... its true, conflict in general is BIG money - whether its the export of fighter jets to pakistan, tanks and bulldozers to israel, or whatever - conflict = money for business's and governments - and that is just about the sickest thing i can imagine.

If the war was really about terrorism, Iraq would have never have been on the Adjenda. Afganistan (the forgotten war) yes, iraq no.

 and u to wickedson, that last line... that made me stop and double take.

i agree with that excellent post

Sorry but i kinda find the Ghandi quote a touch distastful. it is one thing to stand up and be the change to voice your concerns etc and change how you think etc, it is another when the 'change' is bloodshed and murder.

"I am prepared to die, but there is no cause for which I am prepared to kill."

"An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind."

"It is easy enough to be friendly to one's friends. But to befriend the one who regards himself as your enemy is the quintessence of true religion."

excellent, thought afterwards i might have rather misinterpreted what you were saying :)

Im super disappointed i took all that time to address Ghost, and not get a response.

I wasnt bashing or baiting him at all,
but felt some of my points were response worthy.

meh, what do i know.

I took it the wrong way as well, I thought he was implying that he's using this quote to back up himself for backing the war. meh, my bad.

I was just too busy to read it...sorry.[/size]

lol, true, i get verbal diarreah...

Just realize, im not picking a fight, drawing a line, or anything remotely similar...
Interested in your take.....when you have time of course.

Not exactly true.  They get $200,000 or more in compensation from their SGLI.  Not enough, really, but it is something.[/size]



First of all, you don't sign up to fight terrorism...when you take that oath of enlistment into the United States Military, you vow to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and to obey the orders of your superiors and the President of the United States.  If the President sees fit to send you to Mars to look for aliens cause he believes in Martians...well, you do it.  If the President thinks that protecting oil in another country will benefit us, then hell, he's just protecting our interests.  Personally, I don't believe that is why we are there.  I don't buy the left-wing propaganda that keeps telling us the only thing Bush cares about is oil.  That's BS if you ask me.  By the way, my cousin lost an eye while serving with the Marines in Iraq about 6 months ago...he still supports the war, as do I.[/size]



Being against war has never made anyone un-American, unpatriotic, or treasonous.  But the way they go about it sometimes does make people fall into those categories.  I have no problem with anyone who protests war...so long as they pay tribute and respect to those soldiers that are only over there following the orders of their Commander-in-Chief.  The ones who break the law in the name of the "anti-war" movement, the ones who piss on our soldiers, the ones who do not go about it intelligently...those people are the scum of the earth in my opinion.[/size]



Yes, we are stretched pretty thin right now.  But don't think for a second that this country can't mobilize enough military forces to take care of any problem that might arise.  All you need to do is go look at World War II to see the true might of the United States when it is forced to do something.  You know...LIKE SAVE THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD.[/size]



As long as they don't attack the actual military personnel, I don't have a problem with it.[/size]



I still don't buy that argument...sorry.  If it were all about oil, we could take over the entire Middle East without much problem and just add 10 new stars to our flag.[/size]



Absofuckinlutely.[/size]



Not all true, but not too far from the truth either...I'll let that one be.[/size]



They didn't "trick" us into anything.  When it comes to the U.S. Military, the President can do pretty much whatever he damn well pleases.  He doesn't even need Congress' nod.  It isn't our choice...the President does what he feels is within the best interests of this country.  Personally, I think he's doing a pretty good job.[/size]



Well, this one could get really long...but I'm not as long-winded as you are.  Suffice to say, hate to break the news to you:  The United States will always support Isreal above all others...and a lot of it has to do with the fact that the Jews are God's chosen people (says so in the Bible).  It's just the way it is...forget about ever changing that one.[/size]



Why would the military be in Coup mode?  The military actually LOVES our President, contrary to what the liberal news media tries to get a few select soldiers to say on the news every night.[/size]



That may very well be true...but if you don't do something, YOU are just as bad as those people that you despise that oppose you.[/size]



Something you must know...those men are proud of their losses for this country.  The vast majority of them believe as I do, that what they did was right, that what we are doing over there is right, and that nobody is going to put a liberal-propaganda spin on it.  I am a member of the American Legion, a Life Member of the Air Force Association, a member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, and a member of several other military groups and you know what?  I talk to veterans all the time...besides the fact that nearly every male in my family is a war veteran...and they nearly all believe as I do.  You get a very unbalanced view when you get your news from the national media, the newspaper, and even the internet.  Whoever gets their message out the most tends to be what people believe...and unfortunately, those messages are wrong a great deal of the time.[/size]

My God, is this reply finally over?!

Yeah I think the whole world saw that on 9/11 or after Katherina.
Your main problem is that you think or you like to think you're untouchable.
It takes only one man to start a war. And that can be anyone of us.
Even a bird flu can eventually lead to a catastroph, beware all the ppl without health insurance...

i agree with gs when he says it's not about oil. it sure as hell isn't about any other bullshit excuse they've given us so far though, so that leaves us to ponder about more sinister things that could be going on.

Ooh that ones gonna cause some lively shenanigans isn't it ;)