*DAMN R6 Forum

... Continuing this mornings theme of posting off my daily viewings of the newspaper (well otherwise i have to work)

Ive been following the developments of the battle between darwinism creationism and diet/ lite creationism intelligent design ... and well before i get to much into it im rather wondering what other peoples points of view on it are (GS you included - im making an assumption from your religion that you believe in creationism but id like to know why etc)



The American world view:

64 per cent of people questioned for a recent poll said they were open to the idea of teaching creationism in addition to evolution in schools, while 38 per cent favoured replacing evolution with creationism.

40 per cent of Americans believe God will eventually intervene in human affairs and bring about an end to life on Earth, according to a survey carried out in 2002. Of those believers, almost half thought this would occur in their lifetime with a return of Jesus from heaven.

1 adult American in five believes that the Sun revolves around Earth, according to one study carried out last summer.

80 per cent of Americans surveyed by the CNN TV news network believe that their government is hiding evidence of the existence of space aliens.

70 per cent believe it likely that Saddam Hussein was involved personally in the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

I'm ashamed to be an american.

The people who think the sun rotates around the earth are ignorant.  Thoes are all awfully hard numbers and I find it hard to believe that they are all completely true.

Both creationism and evolutionism should be taught in school by teachers with open opinions - the students should be the ones who can determine which they believe in.

Hmm, can't find any information regarding where those stats were aquired from - they were part of the article and were not referenced

If Creationism is taught in schools surely then say the islamist and buddist beliefs of how the world was created should be taught as well? Im assuming you guys have RE (religious education)  lessons at school - personally i belief that is where it should be taught - not in science lessons!

We have very very few classes where other religions are taught and Creationism most definitly isn't taught in Science lessons if that's what your getting at, Evolutionism isn't really taught in science either it's only implied.

So you don't learn specifically about Darwin or about the theory of evolution?

I believe in flying spagetti monsterism, Which I think sums up my view on this entire issue. If people want to learn about god/religion in the class room, they should go to private schools. The thought of teaching students that god created the earth, right after teaching them about the gravitational constant is just too much to stomache.

The Church rejected any science that conflicted with their teachings hundreds of years ago and tortured the scientists who were writing those theories, and now they are telling us that it was acutally God's master plan all along? REDICULOUS!

This statistic can be given no merit unless the subjects asked the question are "typical" Americans and not just people who actually have time to answer survey questions like this (who are usually looney) so this kind of statistic holds no weight unless citizens of the United States were picked randomly...

woot psych taught me something

Hahaha, good one! ::lol::

I believe there is a higher power who looks out for people but I don't believe in Creationism.

And Yes BFG we learned about Darwin and his theory but we didn't spend an amazing amount of time learning about it, just basically his theory of evolution.

Buddhism.

When he comes down I'll just repent my sins and proclaim my belief in the all mighty. He is all forgiving, right?

Unfortunately, no.  You have to repent BEFORE he comes or it doesn't count.   ;)

Denying the existance of God and not wanting to teach conjecture about him in a public school are two completely different issues. The fact is, the science classroom is a place for science, not conjecture about the all-mighty, and trying to turn it into such regresses our public education system in such a way that it might as well not even exist.

This isn't about whether God exists or not, it's about one religion occupying the valuable time that our children are in school for. That quite frankly is completely unacceptable.

I have trouble believing that Jesus is vengeful, merciless and unforgiving. Isn't he the dude who said Love thy enemy, turn the other cheek and forgive those who trespass against thee? 

Yep, but if you don't get saved before he comes back, you're just shit out of luck.  ;D

how do know that he's coming and who told you?

It's what I believe, but my point isn't that...what are you going to do when he comes back?  You can't just say, "hey, I didn't believe that dumbass GhostSniper for a second!  Please let me in!".  It will be all too futile then.  And then what are you going to look back and say about all the Christians that "told you so"?  And what are you going to say about how they took nearly any mention of the Bible out of school?  Hey, play your games all you like while you are here on earth...but just remember, when the time comes, I TOLD YOU SO.[/color]

i'll take my chances in hell, shit I don't even believe in that place but for some reason I am going there.  Since a majority of people now and who have lived throughout history haven't believed in this view of the afterlife, if there is one, I think it may be more fun there.  I would like to party with those people instead, besides, the majority of sinners are funner people anyways, sex drugs and rock and roll.

If I have an eternity, I have an eternity to get used to the pain, humans are very adaptable...

Hohoh, boy.  Jesus is really a ruthless, despotic badass?

If that was my opinion of Jesus, I think I'd take a pass on the whole Faith™ thing.

Hah...I just thought this sounded funny.  You make him sound like a step-father with a history of violence and a mean drinking problem.

Also, the poll results in BFG's original post seem unbelievable.  If they weren't completely fabricated, I'd wager that they aren't representative of the population as a whole.

so..when is he coming? because the world i know of...IF he was to return...someone would either lock him up and call him crazy, cut him up for experimental purposes(just in case), hide him if a different religion believes it would be unhealthy...and then kill him AGAIN. or maybe he arrived in the wrong place and has been preaching to jungle villagers for 2 years...and that means that he has one year left right? or is he able to stay longer this time?
but before i continue...i'll answer your question. i do not live my life as a good christian, i live my life as a good person(as good as possible) and i will not let a book decide what i should or should not do. i do totally respect that this is what you believe. but i would really like to know how you know he's coming and who told you.

do you believe in evolution? or are we all children of adam and eve?

Ah, this is where a little thing called "faith" comes into play.  I believe in the Bible, it tells me that he is coming back, and I have faith that he will come back.  Tell you what though...I would rather be wrong and find out it was all for nothing, then be right and not have listened and done what it takes to be better off after this life.

Oh, and yes, we are all children of Adam and Eve.  How the different races, languages, etc came into being can be explained by the story of the Tower of Babel.[/size]

What makes you believe that out of all the religions in the world you've chosen the right one? They all have the same conviction that you do, but someone has to be wrong.. . but it's not you right? ;)

And also, about the bible, do you believe everything that's written in it?

That's presuming you fanatics don't crucify his liberal ass once again.

after being raised in a religion and doing some self searching and much research into other religions in college, I can only say I have one belief.  That belief is that eventually other peoples beliefs tell them that I am wrong, I am bad, and I should be taken out of the equation.

thanx for the reply GS,

like i said earlier, i respect your beliefs but i am a curious cat :)

so..you believe in adam and eve. does that mean that we do not come from apes? and...since the bible and any religious book was not written before dinosaur bones where found, do you believe that dino's ever existed? cause to me it just seems a little too convinient  that we are from adams rib and that eve(the naughty woman) took a bite from the apple. it sounds like it originated from a jealous dude who wanted controll of his wifey or gf. in the same way that alot  muslim women have cover their faces(or more). sounds like the same thing to me. men who want to control their situation. "shit! that dude is checking out mah bitch! i'm gonna have her cover up so no one can see her". oh and another question...all the people who lived before christianity came along, are they all in hell? and how about babies/childred that died before they found out who jesus was? they in hell too? have there been any women that anyone knows of that have had a hand in writing the bible? or(for anyone else) any other religion?

like is said GS, im just curious and since you are as open about your Faith i'm hitting you with some questions.  :)

Human is gullible.

No problem Rampage, always happy to answer questions...

No, I don't believe we come from apes (I don't believe in evolution at all).  I do believe that dinosaurs existed, and that two of each of them were on the ark when the great flood occured.  There is a lot about the flood that covered the earth that explains away evolution completely, but that is a LONG discussion.  By the way, Eve didn't take a bite specifically from an apple...it was the "forbidden fruit", the Bible never specifies what kind of fruit, though.  Also, the Muslim religion is very close to the Christian religion (read the Qur'an, it is almost the same book as the Old Testament in the Bible).  Babies and Children do not go to hell...only people who have heard the word of God, and refused to believe will go to hell (hey, don't shoot the messenger...it's all in the Bible!).  No women actually wrote any part of the Bible, but many women had stories that were told about in the Bible.

By the way, there are a group of Christian Scientists that have proved the great flood happened, and that it is the reason the dinosaurs did not survive, and also proved that dinosaurs and humans lived on earth at the same time.  Unfortunately, mainstream science will not listen to anything that they didn't think up themselves (like all that crap about evolution).[/size]

GS are/were your parents devote christians?


Wow, Noah was a pretty clever bloke to build a boat big enough for that lot then... thats a pretty awesome feat of engineering... by the way what did all the animals eat during their stay on the ark, i mean we're talking a lot of animals here (and some very big ones at that)

I mean not being funny, but thats a pretty massive logistical nightmare - if you sit down and think about it logically can you really believe it happened - or is it a case of 'well he had god on his side so anything is possible' ?


If you have any references regarding this i would be absolutely fascinated to read how they came to that confusion

Actually talking of floods etc, id be interested to know what your view on huge natural disasters etc are - is it your view that god is punishing people, or that it is simply 'testing' human kind?


You mentioned the similarity between the Qur'an and the bible earlier... But i think it is infact a different common similarity your touching on - between islamic fundamentalism and what appear to be your beliefs,  extreme american christianity / fundamentalist christianity.

Yes, my parents are Baptist Missionaries and my wife's father is a Baptist Preacher.  Both my father and my wife's father went into that work after having served 20+ years and retiring from the U.S. Air Force.[/size]


If you take the time to read the part of the Bible dealing with the ark and the great flood, you will see that it was a huge undertaking that took approximately 120 years to complete.  Now, you think to yourself...Noah had to be extremely old to have started and finished that project, and he was.  Humans lived much longer before the flood...some up into 900+ years old.  Part of the explanation for this is first to determine exactly what the flood was.  If you read the first part of the Bible, where it tells of God's creation of heaven and the earth, you will see that he created a "firmament" above the earth.  This firmament was a huge orbiting mass of ice around the earth (similar to the rings around Saturn, but in this case covering the entire planet).  Because of this, the air pressure on earth was much higher than it is now, around 32 lbs per square inch.  This is similar to the pressure inside a hyperbolic chamber.  Now, at that air pressure, there is a different mix of oxygen in the atmosphere.  The dinosaurs were on the ark, and probable lived their lives after the flood and then died, but there wasn't enough oxygen in the air to support reproduction (your reproduction system is the first to go without enough oxygen getting into your bloodstream).  This explains the extinction of many species of life on earth after the flood.  The animals, and humans, that were able to adapt to the lower oxygen levels and still able to reproduce, are the ones that made it.

The actual flood was caused from this firmament of ice dissolving and falling like rain upon the earth, completely flooding all the land masses...once it receded (some as water vaper into the air, some being formed into ice at the poles), the ark came down on Mount Ararat in Turkey (it is believed that the ark has actually been found there, but it is buried beneath ice and rock after so many years).[/size]



I do have a reference to this...it is a 3-part VHS tape set that tells all about it that was made by the scientists who proved it.  E-mail me your address and I'll make copies and send them to you.

Now, as for "is God punishing people" by allowing natural disasters...yes and no.  Yes, he made the great flood to destroy most of life on earth, save for Noah's family, because there was so much wickedness on earth.  He said he would never make another flood that destroyed the earth like that again.  As for recent natural disasters, who knows.[/size]



Nothing extreme about my beliefs.  I don't go around killing people because they don't believe the way I do.  I don't force my beliefs on anyone, nor do I use Christianity as some basis for Terrorist activities.  I have no problem with Islam as long as they don't go to that extreme.

I will tell you this though...religion is one of the worst things in the world.  Being a Christian isn't bad, it's the Christians themselves (the actual individual people), that do more harm "in the name of Christianity" than anything.  If people could worship in their own groups, without trying to force people into it, the world would be a much better place.[/size]

I totally and utterly agree, and i don't want to ever give the impression i think christianity is a 'bad thing'. I do think that christian fundamentalism is a bad thing, the same that i think that islamic fundamentalism is a bad thing, or any form of fundamentalism for that matter.

I don't know if it was in the newspapers over there the other day, but there was an article on the front page about how bush claimed that god told him to invade iraq and Afghanistan.



Can i ask what your view is regarding people with learning disabilities, physical deformities, and unique genetical malfunctions is?

I respect what you said regarding not forcing your beliefs on others etc, but i wonder how that aligns with issues such as teaching "Intelligent design" in school, or supporting those who would prevent women from having abortions etc? Isn't that simply a more 'subtle' way of forcing people to live their lives within the restraints of your beliefs?

Is it a Sin to not believe in 'god' (as christianity sees him) if i don't believe, but never sin (assuming that to not believe in god is not a sin) i'll still get packed of to hell?

If this is gods earth, his creation then as one of the most conservatively Christian, and (depending on your exact definition of fundamentalist thinking / fundamentalism) given there are conservatively estimated,  at least 30 million Christian fundamentalists in the U.S. alone, do you not find it difficult that your country has such a bad record in terms of Environmental issues and the protection of this planet? Simply put, going by these beliefs, surely the planet and every living thing upon it should be respected - and yet the US is one of the most polluting countries on the planet, and has the death penalty.

Who did the family mate with after the ark landed?
Just playing the devils advocate  :)

GS, hows does a Baptist differ from a Lutheran (Protestant)?

since i'm about to RUN to bed, i dont have any questions he he. but GS thanx for your reply/ies.
i really enjoy a healthy discussion about religion as long as its not stuffed down my throat. it's cool to hear your honest pov's about it.

i'll be back in a couple of days. looking forward to seeing the growth of this thread  :)

What do you mean exactly?[/size]



Well, aren't many of the things the Bible says simply converted into society's view of what is moral?  Let's take killing.  Is it wrong?  Sure it is.  It says so in the 10 Commandments.  But society also thinks it's wrong.  So where does society and the Bible start to differ?  Well, take abortion.  Most Christians believe that in order to allow abortion, you are allowing the mother to murder her unborn baby.  But society wants to say that it isn't murder, it's simply allowing the mother to have a "choice".  I believe that it is murder, plain and simple.  That is a life, and to kill it would be to commit murder.  Hey, just what I believe.  So in many ways, society follows along with what the Bible says, but in other ways it has taken Biblical teachings and gotten more and more liberal.][/size]



According to the Bible, everyone sins, therefore everyone is going to hell unless they repent of their sins and believe in Jesus.[/size]



Of course I think we should all protect the environment.  Don't forget though, the U.S. has something like 300-million people in it...only about 10 percent of which are really fundamentalist Christians.  One thing you should watch out for is that not all Christians are the same.  Catholics have a lot of different views and teachings than say, Baptists.  As far as Christians go, you couldn't find two religions that were more different.

Now then, when it comes to the death penalty...I believe that it is needed in some instances.  Some crimes are so horrible, death is the only viable punishment.  An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth...and all that.[/size]   ;)

"God's an imaginary friend for adults"

He means people who are physically unable to repent their sins (aka people w/ speech impedempents) or without the mental capacity to accept even the concept of God. Are they forever marked and destined for Hell? Or do they somehow get a break?

Back to the orginal topic, GhostSniper, what are your views on this current issue (that Intelligent Design must be given equal time in the classroom as evolution), and if you believe that it should, what do you think about other religious teachings also taking a share of that class time?

What am going to do?? I'm start looking around for the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Santa Clause and The Great Pumpkin because if Jesus is walking the Earth and picking up his peeps, the other mythological characters have to be kickin around somewhere near by.

This article was in the NY Times last week. Interesting stuff ---> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/06/science/sciencespecial2/06canyon.html

*Bump*  ;)

I mean there are some very nasty guidelines written there, like, "If you work on sunday you should be stoned to death". And if you don't believe everything, how do you choose what to believe and what not?

This one I'm just sincerely intrested about, does the bible suggest that the entire human race is a bunch of inbreds?

I realize this is starting to stray from the orginial topic and resemble a cross-examination, but it's so rarely you get a chance to talk to people with a such strong conviction as GS, and I too find these sort of dicsussions fascinating. Maybe there should be a "GS's religious advice thread"  :)

I believe everything.  But one thing you have to remember is this:  Much of the "old law" written in the Old Testament of the Bible was replaced by the New Testament of the Bible, which occurred after the birth of Jesus.  Because Jesus died for all mankind, he washed away the old laws which required blood sacrifices, and many other strange things that don't make much sense these days.  By the way, Sunday is not the "Sabbeth".  Saturday is (bet you didn't know that).



The group of people on the Ark were Noah's extended family...not all blood related to him.  If memory serves me, it was something like 8 or 10 people, which was made up of Noah and his wife, along with several of Noah's children and their spouses.  So you have several different family groups that re-populated the earth.



I don't mind answering anything you guys ask.  I'm an encyclopedia of information on everything from religion to politics to the military.  And cars. ;)


Edited for accuracy.
-Lone


lol...yes, and cars!  ;D

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, I hope you can manage through a few more.


So basically you only believe the New Testament? When I say "believe" I also ment to include "live by", I formulated it rather clumsy. Why is the Old Testament even redden if it's so obsolete?



Well technically we're all still inbreds since all offspring would be cousins to each other at the very least. Amazing how humanity has survived despite all the deficits related with inbreeding.

One more related with the flood ;)

God created rainbows as a token of his promise to never flood the earth again. Do you believe that rainbows existed before God made his promise, or did God change the laws of physics? Do you believe that rainbows are a result of water refracting light?

And finally, how old do you think the earth is?
 :)

Im not quite sure what to say in response to that... im really not. In fact i can't keep up with this all, we could have 15 topics 20 pages long and still not cover all ths stuff.

Can i just touch on the rest of the sola system then and a few other little things, like the galaxy, the sun, the fact that christianity used to believe that the sun rotated around the earth.... whats your take on that? whats your feelings towards other forms of life else where in the galexy, did god make the whole lot, and um... why?!

Yes, but rainbows aren't only visible during rain, you can also see rainbows by waterfalls or geysers i.e. anywhere where there are small water particles.
What would I have seen if I had observed a waterfall before the flood?

Well apparently it didn't rain so... um surely no waterfalls?? Actually what about the whole weather system then!!

Well a geyser then  ;)

Or if they didn't exist either, if I blew water from my mouth at a high velocity.
(The key is to blow the water out as if you were playing a trumpet, "farting" with your mouth, making it disperse in to a cloud.)

GS, this is where I throw up a flag,  I have been a christian, sunday going person forever, but this 10000 year thing is radical.  Explain Dinosaurs please(more)?  Explain all the different types of humans, our extensive dating(as in "this animal is 1 million years old) systems?  Scientifically proven with radioactive Decay,  The world isnt 10,000 years old.

But, to back up the christianity bible statements,  God made the world in seven days... right?  Now, this may seem extreme, but what if gods seven days and our seven days have a slightly different time frame (say billions of years).  Just because the bible says it, doesnt mean that it is true, Paul (saul) was extremely against the rights of women, but he wrote most of the books in the New Testament (the letters, and a few others)  But nowadays what do we see?  Women in public offices, voting, holding offices at church (Oh no, paul just turned over in his grave)  Some of the things in the bible are crazy to us today, but at the time were socially acceptable.

GS where did you read this ICE theory?  Because this is the crazies thing I have ever heard.  Please tell me where in the bible, the earth's moisture level was regulated by a big ass sheet of ice?

Also, what do you say to the rivers, lakes and oceans that need the water cycle to keep regulated?  Were they completely different, did god just change how the earth worked all together?

Ghost sniper, we have bible writings from pre Noah, so where are the mentionings of Dinosaurs, Im sorry But I just cant believe that Adam, or Moses, or any other Old testament guru would not mention this huge ass dino that just ate half his flock of sheep.  They talk about David in the lions den, not david in the veloca raptor den... I refuse to believe that dino's and humans ever walked the planet at the same time, give me cold hard evidence that they did please.

Meh, I would post more, but I must go to work.

Dark.

i have to sleep but....

So god created the whole damn caboodle. Since we're being all scientific, um out of what?
Whats the deal with Carbon Dating then


Ahh, by heck thats handy! I must confess i was just starting to doubt the ICE theory but that explains it... it was the wrong kind of light... ?!?

Im sure you have heard of the famous psychologist called Sigmun Freud, and how his theories were self contained - the theory could not be disproved, because the dis-approval of that theory is part of the theory (dunno if that makes sence to u, any psychology students whill know what the hell im in-effectivly trying to say)  but it all seems pretty familiar with this.


Does it say so in the bible - and how do we know, actually guess ii should say rather how do u believe the bible came into existence? Did god write it or was it written by followers etc, in which case how do they know he created it all... 

My god i have more questions than freaking parliament question time after everyones found out the PM has been sleeping with a orangutan, but i have to ask, what shape or form do you belive this 'god' actually is?



Congratulations dark i've just pissed my self laughing, brilliant! ;)

I want you all to know Im not bashing or critisizing what GS is saying, just challenging it[/size]



Ok, firstly I dont care how much water was on those fossils, it would not alter the carbon in the bones halflife.  No No No it wouldnt. 

Secondly, current plant eating animals dont have all sharp gangly teeth like a T-Rex... so explain the need for these teeth if the animals are docile and dont fight or eat each other.

Thirdly, if things are docile then why was the flood necessary in the first place?  God's creation was killing itself and all of them were adulterers and drunkards, if they were docile would this be a problem?



No, in the new testament Paul is extremely anti-female's not just in church but in everyday life.



This is sketchy at best, link me to your sources, because I have never heard of this.  And this is still a lot of guess work on these "scientists" parts, deciding that the firmament is a big ass peice of ass is a bit odd dont you think?
  for those of you like me who didnt know the exact definition of firmament.

What if firmament was the Ozone GS?  Food for thought.


Meh, w/e your views


The only reference to back up your "Dinosaurs with Noah" theory is this Genesis 8:6 - "And in those days there were giants on the earth, and they sought Noah to take away his life;"[/i]

But, if dinosaurs were docile and plant eaters why would they be seeking to kill noah?

By the way how does Noah know wtf a flood is?

The dinosaurs would have died of Oxygen Deprival not due to reduced Oxygen levels.  By the way, where are the swimming dino's (Nessie?)

By the way, if noah had never seen rain (because it had never rained) then he probly shit himself.



OK TO ALL YOU NON BELIEVERS



IF there is no god, how did we get here?  Humans cant fathom something not being made by something else, so how were we made (to the believers, how was god made?)

What is the point in not believing,  an hour on a sunday near christman and easter (how many of you non believers still take off for work these days?)  And faith in something that may or may not exist, but is a cool idea if it is real.

I dont know that my religion is better than yours,  I just have faith that I am believing the right things.  Honestly, all religions are similar, just a few minor differences, but the basic principle is the same, A higher being, and an afterlife.  Religion may be fake, but it sets good standards to live by dont you think?

Okay, I can't get too much more detailed in my explanations simply because I'm not a scientist.  I do have a 3-part VHS video set that explains all of this...it was developed by the Christian scientists that have tried proving the Bible correct, instead of trying to prove it wrong.  I'm willing to copy the tapes and send them to anyone who wants them...just e-mail me your address to GhostSniper@damnr6.com.[/size]

Email sent

Right now its the whole dinosaur thing that really does not sit well with me (yeah ok a few other minor details like no rainbows becasue of the wrong kind of light and the whole ice thing but hang on)

- So, im starting to feel a bit sorry for all those carnivorous dinosaurs that didn't eat meat. They are built for running and hunting, some of them highly honed hunting machines much like your big cats in africa today... everything about the 'design' of their body if you will...

To be honest i think this is just mad, its desperatly trying to find/create an idea/evidence that can back up a belief despite the fact that everything we believe and know points in the opposite direction.

If I suddenly start a new religion called Shepianity and i believe that sheep only eat bats then people are going to look at me a bit odd - if you could look at a fossilised sheep right now, there is no way that thing is going to be able to catch, let alone eat a bat... You say im crazy? well you see they could eat bats then becasue there wasn't any gravity and the solar winds caught in the sheeps wool and projected them around like little rockets biting the bats out of the air (coincidently the wool of the sheep was also a clever radar blanket which meant that the bats could not detect them!)

 sorry but the same with these dinosaurs - look at what we have found out about them, its not fact or absolute by any means but we can make very good guesses based on the information we have collected, some things we know more about some less, but there is no way (excuse the bad pun coming up) on gods earth (yeah well i warned ya) that all dinosaurs wandered the land chewing on lettuce leaves...

The more I hear about this the more the actions of the christian scientists seems totally crazy - but we cant disprove these 'theories' because they seem to have done just as freud did and provide an explanation for the theory not working as it were... like i said before.


Ah right... I have to ask though what's your stance regarding women priests etc then... ?

Religion may be fake, and I believe it is. I don't think I would want to use the word "Fake" though because of it's negative connotations. I believe that religion is man made, not to control society in any way(this is more the work of the church, and epsecially the Catholic church as it was before modern times), but rather to give an explanation to the things we cannot grasp. Jesus himself did exist, this we know from both jewish and roman historians(romans especially did record history quite metulously), and that he was a preacher of ideas quite radical. However, what a person believes in quite strongly becomes quite real to that person. I personally applaude GS for being open about his beliefs, and to Dark, who isn't on GS side of the fence but asking question without trying to point out the absurdities he finds in those beliefs.

However, I want to say this. Science, christian or non christian can NEVER prove anything to be absolute. It is extremely hard,. since all our data is non empirical, we can only base our theories on logic(which can't be used as evidence due to our mindset is ever changing) and data that cannot be 100% accurate due to natural hindrances(such as there are no living dinosaurs). The reason we say that dinosaurs were meat eaters is that their teath are similar to carnivores of our time..but the problem is, we can't with 100% accuracy say the the plants in those days were not tough and rigid and therefore they needed those teeth to bite through those plants. I know it sounds silly, but we cannot make those guarantees. Therefore, we should never assume anything to be proven to be absolute.

Still, we are all free to believe in what we wish, and I have no doubts that GS beliefs are very real to him, just as Neo-darwinism is very real to BFG, or me for that matter.

Just a few last questions regarding the Dinosaurs and then i'll shut up...

• If dinosaurs were around at the same time as humans, why arn't their human fossils.
• U said the dinosaurs couldn't deal with the change in atmospheric pressure... um what about everything in the sea?


Not quite sure how that proves they were veggie's, also i don't think the scientific world would ignore it if that was really the case and not some mistake or bad fake. if they did, well who's to say mr rex didn't just rip the humans head off as he was stood there...    and where is all the fossilized evidence of all the people and animals killed by the flood?


And here we come to the most inportant bit which i've been trying to get too...

- The Christian 'scientists' came up with a theory which they could fit in with their beliefs - their primary concern was to find a way to explain scientifically the interpretation from the bible regarding the flood, creation of the earth etc etc. They created a theory that had to fit with the beliefs they already had which it goes without saying is about the worst possible scientific practice imaginable.

Darwin and co on the other hand had no such 'goal', no pre set 'conditions' in which things could or couldn't happen. Darwin didn't sit down and say "oh god i don't like the idea of being linked to apes, i better think of a different idea" - it was an open theory, based on research and what we see around us, not pre-defined beliefs.

when i look at my feet i see two of them, i know there are to of them, it just goes without saying that there are two feet. its obvious, its logical.  I do not need to believe i have two feet.

How will you send 3 VHS tapes through email? How large are the files?
If they're not too large I'd like to have a look at them as well.  :)
anton85@gmail.com

GS thankyou for the offer, however there is a Christian 'scientist' centre just around the corner from where i live and although at the moment i don't have the time or desire to really investigate or sit through hours of video's i will turn to them if and when i need more info, afterall you've helped so much talking about it it saves me the effort! ;)

But i felt my last post got a bit overlooked, and somewhere theres a point i was quite proud off! ;)

Christian Scientists have a pre-set agenda, to find scientific backing for what is written in the bible. - what would have happened if they had turned around and said "oh bugger, erm it dosn't really seem very logical im afraid, we can't really prove it with science" ... it wouldn't really happen would it.

Darwin had no agenda, he was simply seeking to understand how things worked. To be honest i like to keep science and religion separate - just as i believe government and religion should be kept separate.

Religion and science do not mix - creating a 'scientific' explanation for the events in the bible does not give it any validity, in fact in these cases i rather think it does the opposite.

Lets not forget a lot of prominent Scientists in history have been christians. however their primary goal was science, not religion. they were seeking to understand the world they livid in, not seeking to create science that made the world appear as their religion saw fit. there is a immense difference!

But with Christian Scientists the "how" is explained? Well Not so long ago Christian / Christian scientists believed the world was flat, they believed that the sun traveled around the earth... they had no knowledge of this, no real evidence of any form they simply used science to try to embed their beliefs... it didn't last. While i respect your beliefs as a christian, i struggle with where you attempt to use science to ground your faith.....for me faith is just that, faith, a belief nothing more.

 GS Im sorry, but if these guys try to tell me that Dino's were all herbavoirs, and that humans  and dino's coexisted then Fred Flinstone and Dino should be fossilized right next to each other due to the giant water pressure that caused dino fossils but not human. 

I guess I just need to see your tapes before passing any more judgement, I await the arrival of these tapes so that I can study them in more detail.  Be prepared for me to comment on them when I do watch them.

for now...

Dark. out.

i'm sure jesus would let the agnostics roll with him in 2012 right?

 GS did the dino's go on the ark?  That would be a hell of alot more animals to fit on the ark, if noah didnt leave them all do drown.

never read the bible but how the hell did noah coax those angry lions and tigers and elephants on the boat?

Well, what I want to know, is that how did Noah get 2 of every species on his boat, and then distribute them to the proper continents afterwards?

... Just don't ask about the fish, the dinosaur fish i mean. no change in pressure for them thereofore they don't suffer the same apparent fate as the others... so we should still have a prehistoric 'dinosaur' aquatic sealife...  hmm

 BFG, nessie owns you... Go loch ness monster!

While im at it... Ghostsniper when we were talking before about believing what the bible says literally there was something i meant to ask you..

Do you read Aramaic? The bible wasn't originally written in english, its been translated from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English... Do you believe that the translations over four languages have been totally exact and precise?

I doubt it - well i know they havn't, theres a passage in the old testament where a translation error meant that Moses apparently had horns!

One last thing. Christianity is a faith, a religion, its about believing in god etc. So why is there a need to try and validate this in the realm of science and logic by creating theories to back up these faiths? There is nothing to prove because by the very nature of 'faith' its a believe - and by its own nature cannot be 'proved'