*DAMN R6 Forum

Stripes told me a week back that there would be no finals this season. I just laughed - figured
it was some sick kind of joke. Now that I've learned that it is in fact the truth, I must say it's
quite the dumbest decision I've ever seen made in any Ghost Recon league in my time.

By having no finals, you're assuring that we, being in the highest-ranked clan for the past seasons, will
not win the current ladder. Sure, it makes sense to let someone else win for a change, but it isn't
any fair whatsoever. Why?

As I'm sure you have all noticed, The Animals currently reside at the top of the ladder with an amazing
7 CBs. We can only dream of doing that many CBs in a season, let alone by this time, because most of our
requests to CB are turned down. Moreover, being ranked second, we'll need to battle [a] a number of times
to get more points than them, and I daresay this is rather hard when they're always refusing to face us.

There is no way we could or can achieve more points than [a] has for this season unless we covertly
rename our clan to "NSF". Normally, this would be fine, as we'd have a good chance of catching up in the
finals, but *cough* seeing as how there are no finals this season...

Without finals, the results of this season will make no sense, and I, for one, will certainly lose a lot
of my belief in the *DAMN Battle League.

I like the idea of a Tournament to come after the Season, but I don't think you should sacrifice the Season's Finals because of it.

z][t-Vermin.

Here are already a few arguments put together why there won't be finals anymore, and that we will hold tournaments seperately instead of finals: http://www.damnr6.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=9331.0

And 7 cbs are nothing, - in the end of the season you will have played hopefully more cbs, as you did in the past. However this is obviously a clan intern issue.

7 CBs is a lot for us these days, trust me. >.<

Sad to hear that!

So i guess there will be no way to bring back finals?

Else you should call your league - " Who's best to find cb's"

Hope the admins will discuss this over, to bring the Finals back to the main season + we could have the tournaments.

But it's ofcourse your decision, at least we could try to make a poll? - Let's make folk post their opinion, i know there is an old thread.

So what ya say? ..

z][t-Stripes

No not for this or next season.

Further it has nothing to do with who's best to find cbs. In the past you never had big issues finding cbs - also in the preseason you played the most cbs. May something outside my knowledge happened wihin z][t, but at all as explained in the other thread with the shorter season intervals the Superfinals would consume too much time compared to the mainseason, and although they have worked out very well, there are also enough disadvantages with the finals(stopping to cbing once you are qualified). I don't want to roll out all pro and contra again.

There have been a few reasons to do so, further right now you have already played a few cbs and are even on par with the animals in the GhR Advanced ladder.

In the future with the release of the *DBL 2.0 you may will see a comeback of the finals, but only in addition with a minimum played amount of cbs requirement. Well this will be discussed shortly before the *DBL 2.0 development hits the beta stage.

There have already been a few threads about this ( here (http://www.damnr6.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=9331.0) in particular). If you wanted to change the rules you should have put in some input when we were in the process of changing them, it's a little late to come around now and ask for them to be changed.

Rgr - it's sad, very sad. But not your fault we can't find cb's.

Hopefully tonight we'll bug people to death if they don't cb us ;-).

Just kidding, Keep in mind - if anyone is interested in a GhR/RvS cb, then contact me or another z][t member in any way. We are up for everything... Mostly ;)


z][t-Stripes  8)

waooo i see 19 cbs played in the last 15 days !!!

no comment !

down with finals! they're a bitch for the admins to take care of, uh huh... Finals just end up being a big, VERY BIG waste of time for the admins and the clans partcipating.

the season should just determine your spot in the tourneys, that's the best alternative for finals.

Sorry, but you're wrong. The current Season has everything do to with who's best at finding CBs, and we've never had any worse problems finding CBs than we are experiencing this season. As for *DBL 2.0, well, I doubt I'd stay around to see that if the "development" of the rules proceed...

verm.

Again Archon this was debated. If you had been around for the debate you could have let your opinion been known. But you weren't, and the rules were written, and they aren't going to be changed, especially not mid-season.

And once again I will suggest to z][t not to support the DBL because of inactivity on GhR ladders.
When ppl have problems seeing us winning then talk to us goddamnit. There are solutions ... But not this tricky and bitchy way behind ppls backs and stuff like that.

Well Vermin,

I think this is also a problem with GameRanger right now - there are much less games overall. So also less cbs.

Neo, the problem of bitching is something, where we, the *DBL admins, can't do much, can we!?

However I hope that you stay, and as said in the beginning of the season, it would be great if bigger clans split up and create subclans so we would have more clans to fight. However as the last big discussion round showed, the bigger clans aren't willing to do so, due various reasons.

However give it a bit time, the seasons aren't that long and season XII will start already a few weeks after season XI, and once clans recognize a common patter there will be hopefully more clans jump aboard, that also hopefully cb.

One thing is unfortunaly that many guys refuse cbs, because they say they need practics, but they don't realize that you can only practice cbing by cbing other clans and at all losing isn't a shame.

It's really a shame, I have tried to get this into the heads of many players for years now, but I failed in this department. We need more clans that are a good role model, and where other clan see that it is all about cbing at first, then comes winning - no matter it is always a rush of adrenaline.

Bye,

Mauti

What are you hoping to achieve by making comments like this?  No one here is worried about z][t winning more than anyone else.  I just looked over the Hall of Fame and I see a variety of clans winning mulitple ladders and such for many months/years now.

You are making your clan look like an ugly, gloating group by saying things like what's written above.  No one else is "name-dropping" about what they've won, it's a total turn-off.

::wall::   this is not zt's general opinion by the way.

Maybe z][t should break up and then you guys would have another euro clan to cb.  Giving you all the right times to put together so no one has to stay up mad late or wake up too early.

That will get more cbs going for you!

Haha, just kiddin!   ;)

is that flaming co vs zt or are u going discuss normaly!!!

... uh... what?

... I never seem to understand what you're talking about... please explain.

I think he was acting as mod and telling Vick to stop flaming. I don't really think Vick was flaming, and I don't really think ghost is a mod so count me confused as well.

Hahah. ^_^

The hint I got that shows Vick wasn't flaming was when he said "just kiddin"...

Okey ...

Lemme explain my opinion a bit more.
In the last few weeks we got pretty much rejected by most of the clans when we were asking for a CB. For instance [a] clan, having like 10 Members online rejected a 3v3 or 4v4 Team CB. This happened several times. I stoped counting how often we asked them. On the other side [a] is getting one CB after another as you can see in the matchlist. I hope you can understand me that I have the slight feeling that there could be a boycott against our clan. GhRa also said openly that their leader Clay does not allow Team Cbs against us.

z][t is one of the smallest Clans here btw. We have 9 active Members right now. So don't come to us first when you talk about a splitup.

Neo out.

I don't see the finals being a good thing when many weeks of tense play can end in a fluke game. I think the lack of finals adds more creditability to season victories and the games prior to the finals. Clans that don't get played should be petitioning the scheduled CB system, not the final. After all, if its that bad you may not even make it to the finals.

You will always have this problem unless several things happen:

• Clans are small groups of mixed ability players, not "elite members only' clans etc
• Players play for the enjoyment of the competition, and winning is not the most important thing.

Right now, people wont play because they don't wnat to loose, and other clans only consist of good players so are seen as to hard opponents.... All in all the whole thing is taken way to seriously.

Aso to return to the topic, having finals isn't going to do (excuse my french here) jack shit to change that, sorry.

Neo, if you have an issue with [a] not cb'ing you guys, don't come on here and post assumptions that we're avoiding cb'ing you guys. Talk to us directly and try to arrange a scheduled cb maybe. We are open to accepting and asking for cb's when they're  available to do so. If you ask, and we're busy doing other stuff, then I'm afraid that's life. Just 2 nights ago I was asking Stripes for a cb - which I might add never happened because you didn't have enough members online. I also instructed our euro side to try and get a cb going with you guys whenever possible whilst I was sleeping. We have had the same problem in previous seasons, where we had less active members and it was hard to get cb's in our time. Now we're more organized, have more active members and we ask for and accept cb's whenever possible. We'll talk to you guys on Gameranger about setting some cb's up, but bitching on here isn't going to achieve a lot.

You are serious about this? Boycott z][t? Why should we feel the need to boycott your clan? :o
I can't speak for all clans or the whole community but for GhRa.

That Clay (by the way he isn't even leader anymore) doesn't allow GhRa to cb z][t- is just not true.

It's up to us who we cb, isn't it?. I come online just to play and have some fun. CBs are secoundary, an alternation to the usual games.  CBs are only funneh  as long as you play in a good team.In my opinion it's just frustrating if the team runs around like a bunch of headless chickens.
For this reason we reject your cb challenges cuz of lack of skilled members. When you challenge us we ususally got plenty online. But in fact only a few are ready to cb yet. ( Ghra isnt a good/elite player only clan )

So thats all about why GhRa is  rejecting your challenges.

Hah! You see it's not like we don't wanna cb ya or even boycott your clan.

Tin ::bussi::

You are all soo sweet.  ::sniper::

First of all, thanks Tin for the post in our fourms. Appreciated a lot.

Secondly Tiger: I don't bitch here. The problem is that we asked several times. And I do think that it has something to do with the posted BFG made. Nothing else. Having 10 PLAYING members on and rejecting a CB leads to that thoughts BFG described.
That at least is the way, some of us in the clan see it. I have nothing against scheduled CBs the only thing is that we often made bad experiences with it. We planned a time and date, most of the z][ts came home earlier from work, sports etc in order to play that CB and the other clan didnt even show up.
I hope it's not the same with [a] and you guys will have a post in your forums very soon.

Another thing: we are not unbeatable ... or too strong as BFG stressed in his post. We lost vs several clans. So I doubt it is that problem.

Thanks
Neo out.

Tigah*  :P

If it is not because we are too strong to beat, then the problem must be the way we handle clanbattles. Maybe you think we are to0 flaming or angry during a cb, or maybe you think we don’t give you enough "gg" between games. So from now on I promise I will say "gg" after every round in a cb, and I will hand out compliments to those who remotely deserves one. After the cb I will be willing to expand the z][t service level to include a private chatroom for hot and steamy conversations for those who desire one. Maybe if this works out well, we can move on and pay for Premium memberships for other clans.

Heh.

  ::bussi::

If you guys won't mind me adding a few more thoughts to this discussion. Im a bit confused who started this topic, it says Archon MkIV, but its z][t Vermin?? but its better that i don't know - whoever it is I'm not about to pick on you personally, i just want to highlight a problem / issue that i see here, and which you have shown:

Its the "is there any point in continuing the season since we can't win it now" mentality. (I'm ignoring the
"I must say it's quite the dumbest decision" comment for later, and no it wasn't changed just to try and stop z][t from winning the league)

The point in the league is that people can play the game as it is really meant to be - as proper teams that work together - not the rag tag bunch of nuts you get in your average GR room. Clans work together as units, with careful (usually) tactics etc - and i must say i remember the first time i settled into playing with my clan and the introduction of voice transformed the game for me. Competition is healthy etc, winning loosing, is fine but the important bit is playing. I can't help but wonder what has happened when i see people saying "well we can't win this season, so what's the point in playing?" - translated that message is saying "winning is more important than everything else, if we can't win this is pointless" ... so what happened to playing the game?

Ok thats not the whole issue, let me take you back a few years, back before clans like [a] =US= z][t     GhRa> BTs  :cO:.   [:] or  {E}   or many of the others existed.
Back then we had a much bigger pool of clans,  and some big clans at that - be it DEA, MoD, [TRIBE] Virus, c| or AGT, and many many more, more than i can remember or any of the others - we had maybe 20 or more clans registered - and many many more active clans than we have today. But you couldn't always find a cb when u wanted on, and there was probably just the same level of competition.
Now you have a total of 11 clans who have played on the GhR ladder, and 48 games played (aprox), thats a little different from the hundreds and hundreds of games we used to have, often there might be 3 or more cb's going on in GR at the same time, sometimes more.

So it would be nice that people take into account that the GhR ladder is not what it used to be, people have moved away, many clans have left, and before you bitch about the actions of the Admins in making changes to the league "to stop you from winning" it might be worth considering the natural changes in the league as a whole.

U know what i think would be really healthy for u guys at the moment? Forget the league, forget the need to win. get your team together, find another clan, and just play some games against each other - just for the enjoyment of playing the game. call it a practice cb if you want, call it just a normal room which happens to be full of clan players, but this isn't good. this is what i don't miss about being in a clan and i know many others who have long gone felt exactly the same way.

but for gods sake, how many times has it got to be said 'this is a bloody game, this is a league that is meant to be here to provide a service to gamers who want that little more demand on themselves and their team to test themselves on the gaming battlefield... Its not about who wins, it isn't a reflection of the best players or the best clan, it never can be, it is here to try and give people something they wanted, something they wanted so that they could have more fun

---

On a side note, if u folks have got serious issues etc try writing about them and discussing them like adults. If you feel there is a problem, how do u suggest you resolve it? If this is a real issue then my first reaction is do you all now want to move to a structured league, where everyone must play each other a minimum amount of times, or at fixed dates etc?  I'm getting sick of the stupid posts, the quote posts with two word responses, or the completely unhelpful flame bait.  Consider yourselves warned.

so i should consider myself warned for being in ZT?  >:(


- Anyway.. YOU are right, z][t doesnt have to prove anything, we'll stop cbing if you wan't us too.
And yes, GhR is a dying game so for all clans out there: I'm stopping with begging you to cb us, i'll stop to ask. I personally need a break too for all these rules it's driving me crazy.

But there is still something i don't like that you just wrote, BFG... it sounds like you are trying to split our clan by saying we should find another clan? suddenly you wan't us to change clans cause we can't find a stupid cb?

I didn't know it would go this far this thread, all i wanted was to schedule some cb's with some clans out there. I don't blame anyone, i just think it was lame not to cb when you had the team.

The only thing is, we z][t has played together sooooooo long that we are beginning to get tired of GhR Public games, and i hate to shoot my own team mates ( Joke Moahahha )... ah getting off topic?

Let's stay on Topic or at least stop talking about changing clans! Don't like that idea  ;)



[/b]


z][t-Stripes  ::)

Without sounding too short tempered stripes, i don't know where the hell u got that idea from so i'd suggest you re-read my post becasue i havn't said anything even remotly close to what you have just suggested.

Well, I don't know if you're aware of it, BFG, but you're actually saying the exact same thing we've been trying to get across. To recap...

Goal: We want to have fun and play CBs against other clans.
Problem: This is even more difficult than usual in this season, because everyone seems so bloody intent to keep their positions in the ladder that they will not risk losing a CB.

Do you see?

For the record, I am Archon MkIV.

Rgr i found it...

Sorry, hehe.. Just got this wrong

On the other hand is there no need to win BFG, i think you got me a bit wrong there.
We don't complain about being the 3rd now in the ladder. We know that we have won a lot of Seasons, a Tourney and this Preseason. But that is not the point. We always had fun playing some CBs and most of the clans also established a nice atmosphere within the battle. But right now we cannot have this fun because noone accepts a CB ('xcept those 4 we did). So I don't really see your point BFG when it comes down to what you call "the need to win".
It is just the thing that we are not able to have any kind of fun (except with ourselves).

I totally agree that wtih online gaming fun has to come first. And I think I speak for the whole clan when I say that fun always was the main thing. Ofc we had fun playing tactical and organized which lead to a win, mostly. Maybe that was missinterpreted.

But whatsoever. I think the best thing really would be to stop any interaction with DBL at the moment. The only thing I dislike that you guys could have asked us for not sharing in the Season(s). And I'm pretty sure we would have accepted it, related to those arguments you brought up.

Thanks
Neo out.

hey guys,

i think this is pretty simple actually, i just think a little too much is being read into it. my boys are pretty much talking about a situation that is frustrating them and has in the past too. and in fairness, any clan would. thats why there are forums. since i know my guys i also know that there is no baiting going on here, just venting of frustration. and yes ofc we are all noticing the fall ghr is taking and has been taking for a couple of seasons. examples have been used and tigah responded fairly to the fact that [a] was used as a refference to a offer to cb. but it is only frustration from a bunch of guys who want to cb. read this post however you feel, but that is what it is. timezones, work, real life etc etc have always been valid reasons for turning cb's down and yes we have probably had a few of those ourselves. but turning this into z][t thinks they is the shit and they thinks they is special is out of line. BFG, yes this is a game and yes it is not life or death, it never was. nor is it life or death if we win or loose. we like the game and we like to play it competetively, nothing more. the fact that we have won so many times is based on many things, skill, luck, team spirit, friendship.  but at no point have i seen my guys get cocky or think they are special because of this. proud yes and that they have earned. we have had a rule since we started - we will fight any clan, with any part of our squad. if we loose...we'll blow a gasket or two, then we find out why and we go out and play again. if we dig into the forums we will see the same type of response from me, from last season. i was frustrated because of the lack of cb's we had and the lack of oponents. that changed and it was a good season. hopefully it will be the same this season but a champions league type ladder would be a good idea to consider soon. so to sum up a very mature post, all they want is to alot of good, nice, polite and hard cb's going and it doesnt matter who is is against.

bring it on!

Dear mr. "Rampage"

Should you be in any doubt, I can hereby validate, that I think your members frustration and anger
about not getting CB´s and seing the Finals suddenly taken out, is very understandable.

Its simply just your timing that sucks, if you ask me.

Up front, before the season-start, I (on behalf of Core) tried to put some attention to the pros and cons
in removing finals. I already at that time kinda knew that many of your members shared my point of view.

But at that time - when posts in the forum could have meant something - I got absolutely no back-up.
On the contrary. One of your members even posted a comment that gave me ( and mb others) the impression that Core was alone in this "Quest" and being a bit out of line, because we warned about
a season without finals would just increase all the technical speculation in who to CB and who not.

Of course a system like this raise frustration level within the top clans. Its logic - and those denying it, are either not looking deep enough into it - or having reasons of their own for not admitting.
The math behind it is pretty clear.

And of course its not clanrelated. Right now it seems to be you guys who are dodged the most, but an ELOpoint-only based ladder will just bring on the problem to the next clans that are in the top 3.

And of course an ELOpoint only based ladder, will only give your clan the very unhonorable choice to CB whatever you cvan get...meaning in the end you sit and CB the lowest ranked clans, that doesnt give a XXXx about position on ladder.

So to me there is absolutely nothing new in all this.
What was new to me was the lack of support when it counted, from some of the clans i regard as being able to think for themselves. Bringing out your frustrations at this point is just waste of time.

Best regards
| ! | Flies

A couple of quick things before i get back to the work i should have been doing...

• Ramps this was in now way an attack etc at z][t , i know only too well that frustration at finding a cb when all u want to do is play, and all u get are the same old replys from people who don't want to play... i was more responding to a general attitude/approach to the league which i think is damaging.

• Flies and or others... I fail to see the logic in the argument for finals, no actually i don't. By having the finals system you could play a handful of cb's but still win the league - thus suggesting that your referring to winning being more important than playing. I do not see the finals as being the resolution to the problem of not being able to find games that your describing. - why? well because the finals accounts for a handful of games during one/two weekends - and i do not see that as a resolution to a problem that goes throughout the mains season for many weeks.

The benefit of the finals/tourny was that games are set up and scheduled. So i'll ask (again) if this is the real benefit which you miss (and removes this problem of finding cb's) are you instead looking for the league to move towards a more structured 'scheduled' system?

Awwwww. I never realised that my little comment said all the above? I never realised either that it hurt you that much. That was never intended. Read it again, and you will see how funny it actually is.

in all honesty i think my timing is fabulous. its a thread that can easily continue and become sour and build up agression between more people than needed. therefore the explanation on my boys behalf and my reasoning on it. not the finals. As for the finals, i really havent had the time to get into the details of the previous discussions on that topic, but usually i tend to agree with most of your pov's. and yes there is nothing new to this. its the same old topic and disussion that we have had before, but i do believe that if this is the way a clan feels about it - it being cO,GHRA, TRIBE etc its all fine to bring it back up even if its "old" news. as for me throwing in the champions league in the mix - was more a future thought when things get EVEN slower than they are now. BFG, thanx for the reply, it was a more general reply from me. but i did read it in the wrong tone. i see the love now!

*walks out and thinks about great timing   ::wall::

Magnetic:

The only fun I could find in it, Magnetic, was that when i draw attention to th problems it would create, removing the finals, your made the usual reply on "relax...its just a game...." all that stuff.

And not more than 2-3 weeks later you are yourself deep involved in the exact same discussion.
Only difference is, that I tried to discuss it at a time when things mb could have been changed.
You discuss it at a time, when you cant get any other reply from admins than: " sry - but the season is rolling".

BFG:


An Elo-point ladder, is only doable in a universe, where the number of participating clans is so high that single clans cant gain any advantage in dodging each other. For huge ladders with lets say 200 - 300 clans participating, the top 3 clans cant get any advantage in dodging Cb´s with each other.
This is where the probablitiy-stuff comes in. therefore my remark on the math.
And if you cant affect the ladder by dodging another clan, you only have one perspective: CB like hell.

With an Elo-point based ladder in a universe so small, that you only have like 10-15 participating clans,
the actions of each individual clan (who they cb and who they dont ) affects the whole ladder.

This is why instead of just CB-ing like rabbits, the clans on a small ladder are more aware of the political advantages they can gain from dodging or CB-ing other clans.

The system with having Finals on the contrary gives the most advantages to small ladders, and beside the glossy effect it is to see the top-3 clans cb-ing each other on a 300-clan ladder, a Finals system is best in a small ladder, with like "best 4 out of lets say 15 participating clans". It reduces the very reason to go and do tactical dodging of specific clans.

And its good for having a fair fight in between the top-clans, so the declared winner is more likely to be the skilled one too. On the battleground that is, and not in the chat-windows.

I feel that I will never be able to make oyu " see the light" from a more subjective point of speech.
So then plz think about it in the mathematical way.

:-)


Rampage
The timing in this discussion can get down to : Is it best to discuss rules before  or after tehy are put into action., Thats what i am referring to.

Best regards
| ! |  Flies

Flies ... some stuff only can be tested in action .. we all are not perfect. Actually the finals are not the mainpoint we are refering to, that hopefully should be clear to you.
The main issue we are discussing is the fact that for us, and to me it seems only for us, it is very hard to CB any clan at the moment.
Offers made in that thread are appreciated. And i suggested another rule saying that all clans registered for the GhR Team and or the Adv ladder have to play all other clans registered on these ladders in order to increase activity and variaty in the season.

It never was a problem b4 for us. We also seeked for CBs when we were on top of the ladder all previous seasons because it was all about the fun. But right now things changed, and, hey sorry this only can be find out in the season not b4 … we just get no CBs.

This probably cannot be changed within the running season, but it should be considered in the following ones.

Flies:

Wrong. I’m not discussing anythng about the finals. I don’t care about the finals. I care about playing cbs, and I’m talking about the fact that we can’t get any cbs going. End of story.

Then find yourself another thread to discuss.

"Why Finals must be held" is a thread that has my interest.

My point of view slightly differ from yours i see.
I dont think its a sudden personal ban of the ZT clan that suddenly makes it impossible for you to get CB´s. We have had same experience in Core for more than just one season. We just came to believe that maybe it was the system and setup that gave grounds for other clans moves.

Just like mentioned above ( and in the the thread i started before season start).

If you only want to take your anger out on someone, and just wanna make it personal instead of constructive debate on what system to use...plz dont pick me.
If for nothing else, then just in order to not make your own quest more difficult.

Best regards
| ! |  Flies

Please stop this emo crap.

I’m not taking anything out on you Flies. Show me where.

eh...flies? that was weird....topics have changed many many times in many many threads in the history of this forum. and somehow they come back on track or an admin locks it. on that positive note...since you replied to my post...is there any agression in that post?  this was maybe one of the things that had me post in the first place, so that this would NOT end up building agression. but since i am clearly in the wrong, i will stop doing crack and ask my guys to do the same and we'll get our feet planted well on the ground. i sooooo hope you see the lightheartedness in this post and maybe you will re-read my other post?

but that someone is picking on you? eh...huh? what? hmmm? Flies is weird

*walks out of the room with a big question mark over his head

You guys never had a problem in seasons before because you would only cb noob clans (check your matchlist from last season) that were able to get on at 12 in the afternoon.  You are one of the few euro ghr clans left...don't expect people to just all of the sudden get on in the middle of the day because z][t is bitching that they can't cb whenever they want.  If you guys are so concerned about getting a cb, then YOU get on when everyone else plays.....you'll get alot more cb's that way.

I'm not even going to respond to that ignorant approach to this argument.

thats because you can't....look at you fuckin matchlist.

Enough. If you can't behave and discuss this like adults then don't post.

sorry, just speaking the truth.  I'm tired of a single clan bitching about everything when they arent willing to do anything about it except complain.

You wouldn't know.

BFG, I wish you would close this thread. It has by far outdone its intention, and now seems to have become nothing but a flameground for people with too much time on their hands.

Flames which you too are guilty of Vermin.

Either get this discussion back above level or it will be closed. Last warning.

Ok... Zt complains about the finals... We admins respond and say that the season has started (we are in week 3 or 4 in this 6 week season) so nothing can be done now. ZT complains about not being able to find cbs. Last season, [?] complained about the same thing. Oh well, tough. Try harder or follow the admins advice to try to schedule a cb in advance. ZT says they tried that before in a previous season. Well, unfortunately, this is really the only suggestion admins can make besides look harder or try to get clans on weekends when they are all on. I like a lot of the ZT guys but I say the same thing that many clans said to us last season... "Oh well. We can't make clans CB you." If people think you are too strong a clan to cb, break it up, divide your strong players into 2 seperate clans. You say you have only 8-10 active players... So what? Last season [:] and [?] had 4 members each. Amazingly both clans made it to finals and I'm sure with ZTs skills, both of their offshoots might make it to finals also (if there ever is a finals again).

The point is, ZT complained and many people have offered comments or suggestions to help. Although some of these suggestions came across as flames, it seems like ZT has rejected or been standoffish about any replies. Like I said guys, I like a lot of you but what do you expect us to do? What do you expect the admins to do? We've offered suggestions which you shoot down. What are your suggestions then?

Just wondering?

Ein

no wonder you get no cbs... all you do is complain.

 gg krush. im locking this.