*DAMN R6 Forum

On the *DBL we all crave fun and competition, right?  Well, I think this community has grown to the point- epsepcially in Ghost Recon- where very very few new clans will pop up.

I mean, now you have [:], z][t, {E}, [a], ~Po~, cO, =US=, and GhRa as possible clans to battle.  Include, <<XL>> and  you still have less than 10 clans you can battle.

What I would LOVE and i know many other clans would love is to have more clans to go against.... more competition on the ladder.... a larger finals bracket..... MORE MORE MORE.


This is what I would like the community to debate: Would it make sense- simply for MORE competition- to make clan carry a roster of no more than 10members?


I always thought that something like this would be stupid.  I mean, if you like a certain group of guys, why not have them in your clan?  And who the fuck can tell you that your immediate group of buds can only incude 10 dudes?

Well, I have re-thought that angle.  Last season [:] was about 4 members- Me, T, Bobby and Kurtz.  But that didnt mean that i didnt fraternize with other clans.  Could we have joined Po, cO, z][t, [a]... we sure could have tried, but we decided that it would be good for competition to for a small yet competent team-- hell, we finished third in the finals last season.  I also applaud [?] for trying to do something similar, as well as <<XL>>  this coming season.

Yeah, we may all call new clans, like <<XL>> noob clans and clown them, but they do us a service.  Instead of just being the 12th, 15th or 20th men on another established clan they have ventured out and begun something new.  Bravo.

What if (and im just spitting out drunken hypotheticals) we decided to limit each clan to 10... or 8 or whatever... and gave each clan a period to make moves.  I know what you are thinking, clan leaders: How the fuck and WHY the fuck should I tell "X" to get lost and out of my clan?  That's would be telling him I dont like him as much as the guys I do keep!!!!".   I get that.  Makes sense.  But you can still be just as cool as you were before... game together in public rooms.... and now you can even cb eachother in the *DBL.  Hell, keep it as one clan, but divide it in two teams--  for example in *nRg we once debated doing the same thing.  We had about 25-30 members and wanted to cb more.  We thought we could stay loosely affiliated but have two teams signed up on the *DBL (*nRg and nrg?.... whatever)


I just checked about 5 clans and counted how many members over 10 they are and found that there would be over 30 extra members if each clan were limited to 10 players.


Skeptics will just say:Why should we?  I like my clan just the way it is!  If I drop my 'reserves' who is to say they will form a new clan?  The guys I would cut are inactive anyway!  FUCK YOU WEAK!


There is no way we could enforce this... it's not like im gonna tell 357Mag (since you are the largest clan) that he has to drop 20 guys or whatever...  Hell, any clan could just decide to leave the *DBL.  I do ask every member to take this into consideration.  You feel like if you left/were forced to leave you wouldnt talk to the same guys or whatever, i bet.  Well, Leen was in my clan... left like an asshole and i still talk to that guy more than anyone else on GR... or Lob.... or Malign.... or Tigah.... or Krush or Twist..... whatever...


[/essay]

For public information:

This topic has been discussed a few times within the admin time, the last time just a few weeks ago. However as long as the *DBL 2.0 isn't ready, where you can add which members plays for which ladder, we won't enforce a clan limit. In the future there will be some kind of limit. However that doesn't mean that you have to kick out your members, just that you can have an active cb rooster with XX members.

Nevertheless we encourage every big clan to split up their clan in a smaller subclans for season XI, like *DAMN did once with *DAMN and *DA(*DAMN Agents) to raise competition. We would really like to see that big clans split up - if more clans battle means that also other clans have to battle more to keep the lead!

Regards,

*DAMN Mauti

Mauti could you tell the clans a number that will be kept for "active rosters"  so that the clan leaders can go ahead and be figuring out their active roster?

A few guys have talked to me on GR about this and say that it's easier to join an existing clan because that way they dont have to worry about buidling a website.  A website is NOT a requirement for clanning.  If you do need help building a forum or a website I know that I am willing to help in anyway possible.

To get more clans out there, I would be more than willing to help some guys set up a forum

I completely agree with this... it would be nice to be able to cb other clans from the typical clans we cb every other week. Our activity isn't really lacking and that's not the problem, the problem is we only have a core group of clans that cb most often. A clan limit would fix this... Some clans could even have a sort of Baseball type program where you have a 'minor league' team and a 'major league' team, players can be moved up and down with activity or skill but at the same time it's two seperate clans that can cb as they choose.

Overall, I think this is a great idea and I think it would help the league quite a bit... more clans equals more choices and, in the end, more activity.

And if building a website is really that big of a problem I'de be willing to maybe even create a layout and htmlize it for you if you give me a few months to get it done. But only if you can show me that you're clan is going to hold together... otherwise I'm wasting my time.

I'm thinking specifically about {E} clan now.  I'm not trying to break them up or make decision for them, but they are such a big clan that would it be possible for them to sign up on the ladder as 2 teams, or 3 teams?

They play in their private room enough where im sure they could even cb eachother.  Like I have told other, im not advocating a clan limit, but it does need to be debated.

Thoughts....?

Dark, until the *DBL 2.0 is ready some seasons will pass and until this time you don't have to worry about it.

Bye,

Mauti

like i already told you weak, i think this is great. the whole "baseball" thing krush mentioned would be great too. and heres my personal little input:

since all the major clans here are, i'm sure, are having guys asking to join them on a weekly basis, a given clan could create sort of a training camp, which would be its individual clan. for example, z][t could create a pre-z][t clan called Z-Unit or something. when guys that we feel are pretty good ask us to join z][t, we could recruit them into Z-Unit. the clan would have its own leader, and they would actively participate in the DBL. at the end of a season some of them might be recruited into z][t.

im just using z][t as an example, i dont know if anyone in the clan is interested, but this way we could solve the problem. Z-Unit wouldnt have to worry about a website or anything, and they could get "professional" help from the more experienced players.

sounds like a good idea. would be a good way for clans see if members worth having

I really think that this is a great idea, though I seriously wonder whether or not we could have any type of system in place before the tenatve start of season XI. I do support this idea but I really don't want to delay the start of the season to incorporate it.

Since it will be several seasons at least untill DBL 2.0 comes out (as mauti said) it seems like there will be no real way of forcing this on the clan rosters, thus it we leave it up to the clans themselves to enforce this rule/system.

So, in the interim, until there is either a community desision on this issue and/or implimentation into the DBL system, I would suggest that every clan take it upon themselves to decide the system they want to use. I'm not going to suggest numbers that would be sset in stone, bu it seems like it would be each individual clan's perogitive (spelling?) to determine for themselves what their rostershould look like that the maximum number of members it can have. If the clan feels there there is enough recruiting interest, then I would encourage them to set up their own "minor league" system in a way that works them the best.

On the other hand, if we could work something out before the season starts, with a community standard for these limits, I'm all for it, as long as it doesn't push Season XI back any further.

Jerk this isnt something the BL has to do... It is just something that clan leaders should say, "hey lets downsize for more competition"

Rather than forcing Team Leaders to cut people... which is the biggest issue with this idea because it's a shitty thing to have to do... why not set it up so that players who do not CB more than X number of CBs per season (I  think 3 is a fair number) are removed from their team's roster at then end.... or maybe at a minimum moved to the "Pending" catagory. This way a team could be as big as it wants to be, their players just all need to be active.

This takes the weight off the Team Leaders (phew!) and puts the responsibility on the individual players.

I'm not sure what the backend system of the DBL Match List looks like, but since all player names are captured when a CB is currently posted, it would only require an Admin (I'd do it) to match up player names with the number of CBs they played. The list would then be sent to the Team Leader and the non-players moved to the pending catagory.

Could be done for XI, I think.

with you guys talking about moving people up .. moving people down .. creating sublans and so on and so forth ; you are really making this thing way too complicated than it needs to be .

i like this idea . i hate to see clans ( won't name any ) that have over 15 people . how do you run that many people ? how do you keep good relationships ? do the clan members even know each other ? i think that a drastic change with the *DBL saying that you need to cut your clan down , to say 10 , would cause people to get kind of pissed off at each other . if you are going to make a clan limit i suggest that you create your limit the following way to ease the pain of dropped members and stressed clanleaders :

• month 1 : clan limit : 20
• month 2 : clan limit : 17
• month 3 : clan limit : 14
• .. and so on

i think that with a periodic change in clan limit will keep the bad blood hopefully non - existant throughout ex - clan members and clan leaders .

i may have just wasted my time trying to explain this but i hope you get the idea ..

cO.leen

No, a gradual drop isnt a good idea, we need the clans split up at the same time to form maximum good teams.  Sorry leen, good idea, just wont work.  You cant do a graduall drop. (In my opinion.)

I think it'd just be easier to just simply give each clan a season warning and use season activity and performance of players to  determine who is to stay and who is to go... then by the start of the following season hopefully everybody would be down to the limit (I would suggest 10-12) and hopefully more clans created by that time.

right, krush... what makes most sense is to pass this idea NOW for NEXT season.

Of course, we havent heard anything official from 357, the leader of the clan this would effect the most....

I believe [a] and {E} have the same number of members... if I counted correctly they both have 21.

That's according to the current BL rosters.

The old "clans are friendship" people may not like this, however our community is suffering because of the lack of competitive clans [RvS], and drop in active clans [GhR]. In the RS days many formed sub-clans that would be the group of friends to stay together, and still allow people who aren't quite same level of friendship form productive clans. I would propose a Draft system that covers the loopholes of the old system:

• The winning clan on Previous season splits to make the "leaders" for new teams
-> If not enough are active to pick the teams, admins will pick suitable players.

Reason: This will ensure that the competitive clans do not simply pick themselves again and again forming the same monopoly situations.

• The Draft takes place in a randomized order.

Reason: Fair is far, and fair is random.

• Once the first round of the draft is complete, both the "leader" and "first pick" must agree on next pick for next round.

Reason: This will minimize risk of conflict players on same team.

• All further picks must be selected using same process [only "leader" and "first pick" must agree]

Reason: Again, minimize conflict players.

• During season, trades can occur, but must be approved by DAMN administration, with the recommendation of both team leaders, and said players.

Reason: Some really want to be on the same team, this would allow it with fair mediation.

• The players must be ranked in "Value" depending on performance during season, internally, by the DBL administration.

Reason: To confirm fair trades.

-----------------------------------

This is just a suggestion, anyone who wants to add to it or such are free to do so. I would strongly suggest a trial run prior to a full season, perhaps a early DBL 2005 Tourney with fancy movie-esque name. Anyhoo, just my 2¢.

I remeber when :MoD: was huge and I hated that but yet I think about it and we couldn't afford to break up simply because we couldn't rely on our members to be active or not so we needed a large number of people to pick from because some person could be on all day one day and then not on for a few more days - that's just the way it was.

Clan size shouldn't be regulated by the BL because it is the clanleaders choice on wether or not he or she wants a big or a small clan.  :MoD: was a very effective large clan but some other clans prefer a small tight knit group.

If [a] or {E} (since it seems you're targeting them) want to split up then that's all well and good but the community should not be an influence on what their clansize should be.

Well, do you see a lot of our members active? NO. We have been a long standing clan and gradually (not overnight) built our team up and not because we want more players to cb with, but because our "friends first" way of doing things has meant we can welcome new players and not kick our non-active friends. Hell we're lucky to have 8 members on at the same time, if we're lucky. As it happens, we probably have about 10 very inactive members at the moment - meaning they come on gameranger once every green moon. Then there's our locations. We don't descriminate in anyway when it comes to a players location. So we have members from Europe, NZ, Australia, America, Asia and so on....which means some of us play at different times. So I wouldn't be comparing us to clans such as {E} - I think there are lots of factors to take into consideration here  and I support the idea of having more clans - but we're certainly not going to split with our long standing friends.

wow... all I said is according to the BL rosters you have the same number of members... it was nothing personal against [a].

Theres krush getting a personal vendetta against other clans again :P


To Shade:

This last season, although we had a large roster, only about 6 of us EVER cb'd ghr, so I wouldnt say taht we had an unreliable group of guys, as much as a large group of inactive members.

I don't speak for rest my clan but if dbl trys to force elite to downsize the dbl will be short one more community member. Im here first to have a good time with my buddies not to get into as many clan battles as possible

Guys if you could already read in my two posts here, that's nothing that will come for Season XI and not overnight, so don't already worry or make threats.

Further if it comes it won't be complicated in any way and the script will handle it.

Last but not least as you all know there are enough clans with many members but only a few are cbing or are even allowed to cb - a limit, or a script suggested clan split up could help to get more members and clans play cbs.

However we still suggest for Season XI, that if you have many members you may make a subclan and register it - this wouldn't destroy any friendships, especially if you still share the same website and a similiar name it allows to have a) cbs against your friends in the best atmosphere, because you all know each other and b) more possibilities for everyone to cb.

Have a nice day,

Mauti

roger.  this is exactly where I didnt want this debate to go.  I don't think that in this point in time we  or the DBL can mandate a limit on clan members.  it just wont happen.  And that should not be the aim of anyone.

I want more clans, plain and simple.  I just wish there were more.  It is hard to see a closed {E} room with 12-16 members and not be able to cb them.  This is their right and this was not the break up {E} clan thread.  This was also not a thread to tell others how to run their clan or to tell [a] that their clan needs to lose their friends.

I think the reality of things is that this is it for clans.  I know speaking for [:] we still look forward to great battles with {E}, [a], Po, cO, =US=, GhRa, z][t, <<XL>> and anyone else.


I guess now I can only urge the clanless to start new clans instead of becoming the 12th, 15, or 20th on another established clan.


Now to my next order of business:  How many GhR clans will join cO and [:] as active participants on the RvS ladder?  ::applause::

slimming down the larger clans  still won't solve the problem. most large clans through the years have had atleast half the clan being "inactive". i don't think that making a sub clan or a new one will make people more active. looking at us, we have 12 on our roster and 8-9 are very active and 3 that come and go because of work and other real life stuff, including myself. having a 10 man clan rule has worked very well for us. a smaller unit i believe, works closer together. when [one] was around and active, i think there was a 30 man roster. 15-20 where coming and going. creating a subclan...im a bit split on this. if "eddie" was to join a sub clan, his loyalty should be to that clan and its leader, not the leader of the clan he is trying to get into and playing on the hope of getting into that clan. BUT then there's the other side of my split. i would be willing to try this(after discussing it with my clan) in hopes of getting some clanless people interrested in clan life.(im a little sick these days, so i might totally change my mind...probably not though).

and i'm all up for helping people start a new clan and i know from experience that help with website etc is very doable in gr(thanx guys)

i do think that the real sollution is for ghr3 to get ported to mac faster than shit!(we know it will happen slowly damnit)

another thought....if sublans are started, lets make a rule that states the ammount of cb's thats should be allowed against them. just to take care of accusations ahead of time. "they only cb their subclan"

I'am no man of great words and I'am no great man ethier! But this idea is great its a shame we cannot force it upon the clans atm! I'am totally for the original idea of lower and upper teams it wud bring more variety to the game as long as no one gets left clanless at the end of it im 100% for it and am willing to help the campaign to persuade others to help us sought this out!

You weren't even in the clan at the time when I'm refrencing.

Wow, has this ever taken off eh, well now its time for my 2 cents worth. If everyone that has a problem with our clan being to big would just take a good look at out roster you'd see that there are quite a few members there that havent been on for ages, totally inactive, there are also quite a few players that are semi inactive due to work school or they just have a life outside of the games people play. Then there are the active players, the ones that are on every day or just about every day. In all reality, the numbers here are more like 12 to 15 players, which is no where near the 20+ that has been talked about.
Now reading these forums, i hear a real concern about not having enough clans to cb. isnt 10 enough, how many do you need, that can be 30 40 or 50 cb's depending on the limit set by dbl. We are not going to remove, demote, boot or whatever you want to call it to appease a few people out there that dont have a 15 man roster. We have a great bunch of guys here, we play well together, and we actually have a lot of fun playing, win or lose. We are here to play a game, have some fun, and not get to serious along the way. So lets try and keep it that way. Im sure everyone feels the same way about their clan. If someone came to you and said you can only have a 3 member caln from now on, what would you do then...so think about what your asking people to do here and think about how it would feel if it were your clan that someone else was trying to break up!!!

I can't speak for Mag, but...

{E} tried the idea of a "farm" team with A and Z divisions.  All it did was create moral problems.  The people on the Z team felt ... well ... inferior.  In the interest of everyone having a good time (fun) it was dropped.

{E} seems to be a clan that just likes to have fun.  We don't really seem to care as much as others about CBing often.  This is not to say that we don't like winning, but it may not be so important.  Like [a] we have a lot of members that are not available all the time, or who feel like CBing at a given moment.  Having a large membership helps us field a team on any given night.

As for the closed {E} rooms - it's what we call practice.  You know, develop tactics, figure out good spots on the maps and provide some target practice for Ive.

It may be that Ghost Recon is in decline.  I know that a lot of players have moved on to other games or maybe just gotten a life (oh the horror).  A larger question might be how to get more people to play GhR. Perhaps we should CB against PCs? Or CB Al Quaida? Or the Republican National Committee? Or the Joint Chiefs of Staff? A little publicity?

No one is really trying to make a rule that would break up the large clans (whether they have innactive members or not) here. All we are saying is that there is a shortage of clans to CB and it's something that needs to be addressed in a community forum, not something that should be mandated. This isn't based on the number of members a clan has but a general shortage of clans to CB. It's great to cb clans like cO, Ghra, etc but after a while it's the same thing, over and over.

It's not that there arn't new players either, there are plenty who would be happy to join a clan, but at the rate those new players come in, and the size/skill/reputation of the existing clans, creating a new clan is a daunting prospect. There just arn't enough new members to start even 1 full roster (5 active players or more) clan each season because the etablished players feel the need to pad the rosters of already established clans.

What if instead of forcing clans to downsize, we set a cap at further recruitment. If you leave a clan your in, you are required to join a clan with fewer members then hte roster limit. I'll use myself as an example here.

Lets say [:] has 12 members (not that it does) and we've set the new member cap at 10 members. I decide to leave [:] and join another clan. because i left my clan, i now would need to go and find a clan under the 10 member cap. So in theory, I would be unable to join z][t, {E} or any other large clan. This way would allow smaller clans to pick up more experienced members that would normally just pad the roster of an already established clan (woops, 2nd time i used that phrase). Since there is inevitable clan turnover, this system would allow established clans to keep their members if they wanted, but would give more opportunities for experienced players ot start new clans or join smaller ones and still keep in competion.

Just an idea.

I thin kthat this complicated plan is outstanding.  I have been in several clans that have folded.  The best part about moving on to anoher clan is meeting new players and killing old friend.  I would go one step further:

1.  Dissolve all clans after the next season with two members of winning clan acting as captains to pick from all eligibles.

2.  Limit clans to a roster of a dozen.

3.  Allow player traes, releases, or acquisitions similar to a sports franchise.

4.  Trades would have to approved by Damn BL Staffers.

Thinning through attrition sounds like a more reasonable way to go , a forced cap does not.

More cbs than any other clan, and yet they end up in 6th? Looks like their numbers didnt really do them that much good. The winner, z][t has maybe a third of the numbers as {E}. Maybe that should tell you something?

I dont unerstand your point spike? Are you having a stab at {E} or am i just missing something?

I'm saying that a big clan isnt actually all that much of a help if you want to be competitive. Evidently a smaller clan like z][t has a lot more success on the ladder. Possibly because they play together more or know each other better. Unit cohesion might just be better, whatever the reason, they ended up up in first with 27 cbs, while {E} ended up in 6th with 30 cbs. I'm not flaming or trying to insult {E}, I'm just saying perhaps larger clans don't do as well on the ladder.

We're talking about the fact that big clans don't always have the upperhand, no matter what skills may exist in the ranks. z][t and many other smaller clans are successful because they are fewer, and they've practiced every map to perfection. Each member knows exactly what to do. With larger clans this is almost impossible, and I know this from first hand experience. This is no stab at {E} nor any big clan. :MoD: were in the same postition as {E}. What made us fight somewhat higher in the league was due to two extremely good members in Shade and BFG.

This may be good as a secondary ladder... but I'm not willing to lose the cO tag because I'm drafted by a different leader... This, I think, would be a great idea at the end of season 11 as a secondary ladder. You still play the normal team ladder with your clan but you have a seperate 'draft clan' which you can also cb for on a different ladder.

Prioritizing clans would becoming the problem then krush. I just view this as a way to introduce:

• Clan member limits
• BL oversight into player transfers
• A fresh player cycle
• A fresh clan cycle

With the dual ladder system you risk killing both ladders with one punch.

therefore not being ranked #1 means no nesesary reason to limit clan size

heh, well in that case I'll stick to the team ladder. I know all of the members in cO pretty damn well by now, we all can play with eachother very well for the most part and I know we're all dedicated and come online to cb. If I were drafted and my 'draft clan' all of a sudden becomes inactive I'm sorta screwed for that season. Some players aren't as dedicated as others and the more dedicated players could end up getting screwed over in this process.

I think anybody in cO would tell you our clan isn't half as much for winning as we are for getting on nf and having fun while playing... as a matter of fact, it's a more of a requirement that you have and are willing to get on nf with us in public and cb games to join cO. I can only speak for myself, but I know my activity and dedication would go downhill if I were stuck with a clan that's not as dedicated and one that I don't get along with as much as my current clan.

In my opinion, drafting goes against the very foundation of clans. You join a clan because your buddies are in it. I always wanted to join dr because blake and happyjack were in it, and I'm sure you all have similar stories. I oppose this for the same reason I oppose scheduled cbs. I think that gaming is about having fun with your friends, and no battle league has a right to tell you who you battle for, and when you battle (with some exceptions of course).

I totally agree krush, Clanning isnt all about the competition,  its about the friendships you make and the bonds you make with the guys you get along with in the clans.  Remember when cO picked up dvs?  (not bashing dvs) dvs wasnt exactly the most pristine ghr player out there, but he was a cool, funny guy, and they liked him for that. On their website it even said "official clan chat whore".  I dont know if its true that they got him cause they liked him, and not his skills, but I respect [a] and {E} for not wanting to split due to the friendships that they have made.

Yeah it would be cool to have more than 5 competitive clans, but this is a community.  Its not just a competition.

Myst your system is great, if all we cared about was winning competition.

I think most of us agree that that isnt all that we look forward to when we log onto GR.


My 2 cents.

Dark Out.

You seem to be someone who wants a change, but wouldn't be willing to give some sort of sacrifice or outreach on your own to make things happen. Your main argument is flawed in the sense that this system isn't run by robots; players would be able to ask to be released from a clan. That release would allow other clans to request acquisition rights. Then there is trading and such.

Situations and Simple Solutions

• Leader becomes inactive/brickwall - Assuming the team as a whole is wanting to continue under new leadership, the majority of the team could choose to appeal to the DBL administration for a new leader [of the teams choose if within team or of DBL appointment if no inner clan solution is available]. If the player is completely inactive, they could be removed, and the team could try to draft a new player.

• You aren't happy with your team - The team as a whole is healthy, but your relationships have broken down. You can ask the DBL to get your leader to release you. After being released you would be a free agent for clans to try to acquire. Another avenue would be to request a trade be set up if some other player[s - multiple players that add up]with equal skill wish to join the team.

This is simple enough. I suggest this gets more consideration than "I want to be with my friends".

Dark, did you pick only your friends when you play some sport during elementary school recesses? No, you were all friends so the teams would be made even through a draft process.

You picked the best players because you had a greater chance of winning - but that has nothing to do with clan size.

Nor the way that {E} amd [a] pick clan mates, a guy could be good as hell, but be the biggest douche in the world, and no one would take him.  I guarantee that.

im as noob as they come and i was asked to join {E} lol

Well, on the bright side of the issue, soon GhR players will get to refer to the last active GhR seasons as the old days. It's a great feeling..not. In the end of RS we faced the same thing of larger clans swiping up as much as they could, it resulted in the BL eventually coming down to 3 active clans.


It does have to do with clan size because it was a example of how things work. There are very few people here who would be proclaimed evil. In fact from the sounds of it, most are friends. Just like in the school yard, everyone was friendly. The teams would often change daily, and usually picked by 2 team leaders. The leaders would pick their closer friends of the top players first, then so on. This essentially what would happen in a draft system.

Anyway, the chances of clans actually being willing to take action are very low. I'll take the pessimistic view and will predict a breakdown by Season XIII.

I'de be willing to try this for a season just to see how it works out... Hell, it could be extremely fun for all I know. It's obviously a major change and the biggest bright side to having a season like this would be getting to know players outside your clan better which in the end might actually create more clans. This also might create more activity now that I think about it... I think people may feel more obligated to cb due to the fact they don't want to be released from their team and they don't want to let their team down.

Though I still stand by my earlier arguement, I'm almost all for trying this for a season... change is almost always fun. And change isn't always forever... what could it hurt?

I think this idea of drafting clans is pure nonsense.  I would not like to try it out for a seaosn, but maybe try it out for a mini-tournament.

We could somehow have team captains, and informal clans named simply by color.  That would be fun.  I mean, hell, I don't have a problem with any of you, but I'm in the clan with the folks that I am for a reason.

In my opinion this has gotten out of hand.  My original post was to make things more FUN not more COMPLICATED.

No one has really had anythign to say about setting a limit for new members and thining the clans out by attrition.

Alternate Strategy

DAMN could limit the number of "active" players. The benefits/workings of such system:

• Active players would be allowed to CB and participate.
• Inactive players wouldn't be allowed to CB.
• Limited active players for each clan to 8(?).
• Players who want to become active (as another becomes inactive) would have to wait a certain amount of time 48 hours - 1 week.

I think that this may be the best way to maintain the friendship clan garbage, while introducing incentive for smaller clans. I would also suggest a lower CB size restriction [4v4 or 6v6].

----
For the record, weak, I don't think that more complicated systems result in less fun, only stupid complex things like a season ending in a weekend of confusion. ::)

Weird, Myst and I had the same thought. We were discussing the active players idea.

Wtf is this "friendship clan garbage." Some of us really do have friends in the clans and some of us dont i guess, Im assuming you are the latter. Or are you saying that you would have no problem playing with people that you dont like or get along with,, ya ya I doubt it.  Weak had a good reason for starting this forum, it was obviously a concern for a few people here, but this has gotten way out of hand, and it really is to close to this upcoming season to do anything about it anyway. Chill guys and have fun with your friends. And ya , I got a lot of friends in the clan but i also have a lot outside the clan too. Also its ok to have an opinion of your own but its not ok to shit on someone elses opinion because you dont like it.

Yack yack, come in bash then leave. Good plan. To clear this up, discussion is not "way out of hand", nor is finding alternatives. The season isn't set at all right now, if you want to let the community die just to have a fast season, enjoy.

Post on topic, not to bash, or don't post at all.

I think {E}s postion is clear.  We play this game cause we gotta bunch friends to enjoy it with an will not give up wearin same tag as those friends. I understand were weaks coming from I dont think splitin up our well established clans is the answer. (all clans not just {E}) Maybe if we could keep people interesting in the game keep em playing lota people just enjoy arguen bout it on here rather then shooting round. I enjoyed our cb with danm and bts couple seasons ago in finals. Ghr is a old game which is not attractin quite as many people as it used to

LOL, i cant believe this was even a topic, gezz people a clan cap? sounds like a dictatorship if ya ask me, shouldnt everyone have a "CHOICE" in what clan they go to? weres the "FREEDOM"? Everyone in {E} knows i made them all sign a contract and told them if they ever left {E} or started anyother clan that i was going to hire a contract killer to hunt them and there families down and make them pay, fact of the matter is everyone in {E} knows they are free to leave and play for any other clan, they have a "CHOICE" in what "they"want to do,as a matter of fact, most of my guys agree that they wouldnt want to play for any other clan and tell me if i stop this clan then there not gona play, why you ask?, because they dont care to play with "some of the other dickhead clans out there",or some of the "kid clans out there". most of my guys are 30-55 years of age and enjoy a mature fun style atmosphere and thats why they joined {E},(kind of like going to the bar and drinking with your pals but spending much less $ by doing it on gr).....so if your pissed cause i have too many players then maybe you should stand back and hold "you", or "some" of you clan members in check cause maybe someone didnt come to your clan cause of the above mentioned maybe?... I mean what makes you think if they were not in {E} that they would even CONSIDER going to your clan??, you know "one bad apple could spoil the bunch", hell i can say myself that there are several "top" clans out there and if i wasnt in a clan i wouldnt even consider playing for them cause there a bunch of assholes. lets face it ,if your in a company and go to a job everyday were the production was awsome, but the coworkers were assholes and made you miserable everyday wouldnt you try to find another job?, or would you stay there and take a bunch of bullshit when you really didnt have to?, this is called a choice, freedom ect.(and just think.... people at that so called shitty job gets paid for it), as for us here on gr we dont .just remember people that came to {E} by choice, not by a gun being held to there heads, so if you feel i have made a monopoly by sucking up all the clan talent, "take a look at yourself", maybe it was because they didnt want to join you, or your clan. last season some clans stated that we didnt cb enough, so we go and get some more players........ now this year we have to many players and met  "YOUR" needs and cbed more than anyone,"its dammed if you do dammed if you dont", as a matter of fact i know of several cbs that didnt get posted cause players in the other clans were getting beat and decided they didnt  want to cb because of of that and just left the game,but did we nail anyone to the cross here? no we didnt , not a word was said nothing........and some of the other cbs didnt get posted cause gezz people it was just preseason, who knows if we had made all the post we may have won the dam thing. Now as for the amount of members we have ,we have somewere around 30 or so,half of them are back at college or on the road alot due to jobs,or just like to jump on everynow and then just to play a quick few games. Our active cb team is  around the number of 10-15 people if that, so now lets ATTACK some of the other clans out there that have way to many people that are ACTIVE on there cb team,Now lets hear some you peeps start your bitching once again cause god knows i cant speak my mind or make a post without it getting flamed or bitched about......thanks had fun posting this if ya took offence then sorry maybe you should hold yourself in check ::applause::

Wtf you talking about , yack yack come in and bash then leave, was i suppose to sit around and wait for some other lame ass post on here or go something enjoyable.
 And wtf do you mean a fast season , and die, now this sounds like scare mongering to me, doesnt sound very productive at all. So what gives, or is it that some are just looking to fling shit. Now should i stick around to wait for a reaply or just read it next time im in here. I wouldnt want to bash and dash ya know.

You haven't posted anything productive yet, so you aren't really one to talk. If you want to make personal attacks, feel free to. It only makes you look like some idiot who can't contribute any real content. I've seen the same mistakes made in the RS seasons [when it died]. I suggest you turn on spell check while you're at it; it seems disrespectful to both flame, not contribute, and not care enough to post with quality.

What does productive mean to you, going along with the majority,  am I not allowed to have a personal say here. Ive made a few post to voice my opinion, but as it turned out , there were no replys to these until i flung some shit. Dont tell me how the fuck to spell. your not my teacher or my wife. Rogue spear pretty much died when ghostrecon started, any more bullshit ya want to add.

it was an idea... nobody is enforcing this, calm down.

btw {E} dont take this personal, we are just trying to advocate more competitive clans rather than clans with 25+ members, mb have 10-15 members??  We arent saying {E} MUST DISBAND we are saying,


Hey lets have clans with fewer members so that we can cb more often!"

Rob, so now you admit to flinging shit. Way to go. I would be infavor of admins removing the posts filled with garbage thanks to the flame bait of some fool who reduces himself to cursing and BS in every post. Contribute the the thread or get lost. We are discussing the active clan model.

that's not the problem... the problem is, we're cbing the same clans over and over and over and it gets pretty boring and repetetive...

on a side note... myth is right, he was just bringing a new idea to the table... but you two should either kiss and make up or take your battle somewhere else.

Fewer members means there would be more clans out there = Less Repetitive.

that's not what I was saying...

you said...
And I said, "that's not the problem"

I know what you mean krush, I just improperly worded it.  I also am for less repetitive games (clans)

i understand what ur saying there dark but, if you read on u will see that we only have 10-15 guys that activly cb, the rest are in the gang to bullshit around if they werent in {E} they would be clanless and have made it clear they dont want to cb, or be with any other clan

10-15 is still ridiculously huge... 15v15 CB...

Agreed, I know from experience that 12 active members is MORE than enough players to compete in a season.

Man , you talk like they are all going to be on at the same time.
 

12 is even a lot. 8 for RvS and 10 for GhR would be the best bet. Rob, you talk like you have nothing to contribute. What is your plan anyway?

Unless you're typical cb consists of 24 total players they wouldn't all have to be on at the same time. {E} seems to be taking this issue personally, it's not about {E}.

yea im sure all our 10-15 guys dont have lives and are gona be on all the time

Your members have better lives than the rest of the community? Way to prove a point.

Comon Myst.....cool it.

Myst, Rob and mag cool it... go chat on GR.

Like I said, this issue IS NOT ABOUT {E}... let's not turn a *DAMN issue into a personal issue. {E} was being used as an example due to the fact you are the largest clan right now... not to say we're trying to split you guys up, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT.

As a matter of fact, I've learned to enjoy cbing you guys after pre-season.

We're all just trying to think up possible solutions to change the repetetiveness of the cbs.

The offered solution wouldn't split up the clan, just limit the members allowed to CB from an "active" roster. It is up to those members if they stay or if they go.

I love that solution... but I think 10 would be a good, even number for ghr and maybe 8 for rvs... maybe I'm wrong but don't RvS cbs tend to be smaller than ghr cbs?

RvS = 2v2 --> 4v4

Usually on the smaller end of that scale. 8 is a good number for RvS. I would say 6, but it would be stupid to cause problems in clans that are existing already.

This makes little sense.... the point is t increase activity, not just have guys sit on a clan idle.  {E} has 21 or so memeber, if we limited the guys who could CB in a season {E} would lose lots of activity.

Many times i have seen them doing two CBs simultaneously.



I have what I think is a simple solution:  All future clans formed may not have more than "X" members.  Current clans are grandfathered and may maintain their roster at current levels but may not add.  If they lose a member, that member may not return to that clan or join any other clan that has over "X" member.  

I think it might be the only reasonable way to promote growth of clans.  No?

Or it would just make people join existing clans furthering the issue.

Wow mysty your a real dickhead arent you, if ya want to keep it going ill keep it going too. As for the rest  of the guys, we arent talking about a 24 person game here,  if we have 15 active cbing members all that means is its going to be that much easier for the cb's to happen , not that we are going to play 15 person cb's, thers none else that could do that anyway. sometimes its pretty hard to get a 4v4 cb going. and this is with teams that also have a good number of players. I think instead of putting so much tim into clan size limits , i think it was said before, maybe we need to encourage more of the newer players to start up clans of their own. Something that isnt so easy to do mind you, but worth a try

i like weaks idea , and so what if they join existing clans as long as they dont go over the limit. which takes me way back to a post i made...lose players through attrition ,

and dont tell me my spelling is wrong again.

good point rob, i have also been working that end.


In ten minutes me and primary helped Sparkz begin a clan and he now has a handful of members and pcb'ed today.

with smaller clns= les repetitive. but then again if u have only a certain amount of ppl in bl then u will still be playing the same ppl over and over again...true or am i wrong... ::sniper::

Yes, lets throw one word and no explain it, however this may work.

Player activity/cap to the new clans, old clans can recruit until they are below the said limit. Potential is there for this system.

Damn right potential is there for my system. Stop trying to take credit for my ideas weak/rob =)

lol Oh jerk your so funny some times,,, Sorry i missed it if you put it up , i saw it when weak posted it.

Think about what you all are saying, you keep saying you dont want to cb the same clan over and over.....well your not, you will be playing DIFFERANT guys each time with DIFFERANT tactics, the only thing that  is the same is the TAG. We each have differant tactics how is that boring?, not one {E} player has the same tactics, we all move differant, we dont have a game plan that we stick by and everyone doesnt play the same, so the only thing you can say is maybe you may be jealous? maybe some are pissed cause i have so many?, i think this is what it boils down too! Stop and think, before i even signed us all up to battleleague we were a "collective clan", "not cbing at all" people didnt join this clan to cb, they joined us to have fun.....hell maybe i should pull the entire clan out of this season and go back to being a "collective clan"? hmmmm....this topic should be locked before i get pissed about it.

lol

mag you have to remember the 6 cb limit, we could cb 6 different groups of E's or either 36 total groups of divided {E}'s (Not saying you guys must split, just making a point)

mag, tell that bitch to be cool.....


we just want more clans.  i cant imagine anyone breaking you guys up.  i also cant think anyone is jealous.  they are on the {E} but no one actually thinks they belong to you.  it's cool brotha'.


Hell, I'll toot my own horn... I like my idea.... let current clans compete as they are, but they may not add.  Any subsequent clan that hasnt registered must be capped at "X"

this ISN'T A "LET'S SPLIT {E} UP, THREAD"... you keep turning it into that... this has NOTHING to do with {E}.

weak... I love the idea, what I like most about it, is it could be added as early as... this next season 11?

I'de imagine it'd work great... no real flaws, very simple, and it'd be easy to add to a new season.

Mag and the rest of {E}, this thread isn't about breaking you up and I wish you guys wouldn't take it quite so personally. Setting a cap for new clan members does nothing to hurt you guys playing for fun and doesn't prevent new members joining just for fun but not to cb. But, what this proposed new system does do is encourge both new players and vets to form new clans instead of joining a large already existing clan. While new players are few and far between, mixing it up with new players having the opportunity to play with vets instead of just other newbies is something that we should strive for. I don't know how you can be against this issue unless you for some reason want {E} to glow larger then it already is. I don't know about you, but I (and I think most of this community agrees) have significantly more fun competeing against 15 smaller clans then 3 fat bloated ones.

Weak, omg will you stop stealing my shit. For fucks sake.

omg, go to sleep.... when tf did you get that idea?  damn white man taking all the mexicans good shit.   ::bussi::

sometimes i see E with about 10 guys on (all who i have seen cbing before). and when you go to ask for a cb its a no.

ummmm not always phara, i recall asking u guys unfotunately the cqb didnt count which sux but then again when w e do hop onu have to realize that the times between us and most of ghra are by a few hrs. as well as the constant asking of a cb. most of the time i see us cbing is at niht time here in us like around 8-10 pm cst. i guess thats when we are most likely to cb but then again i could be wrong. also I personally dont like the fact of everyone in ur clan asking at the same time, ot that u do it all the time but most times im asked its by multiple ppl and not just one person. and for me as of right now im working on my house remodeling it and will only be on so few hrs any week and would only like to play for fun. but once done with house i would usually agree to cb at around 9 pm cst. thats the best time to ask me for a cb. and mb an Ocasional 5-8 pm cb. as for when there are those 10 ppl on are theyin a game or in a locked room? cause if in a game i dont knw if they are like me but i would say no cause i was having fun in the room. Which is what i reallywouldnt like to leave and then have to wait for everyone to get rdy.

last season we got bugged for not cbing enough this pre season we had the most cbs phara

Ok, the draft idea, honestly, just wont work.  These clans are formed to much by the fact that "you must get along to be in".  Its nothing personal against people, the members will probly just clash.  (And who is to stop current clan leaders just repicking their cb teams again)  THEN you have the problem of remaking a forum/website for Every freakin season?  no thanks hombre.

Guys, I know this may seem like a good idea, but its not worth the risk of killing the game.  (Which I really think a draft in ghr would do)

My 2 cents.

Dark.

Why did you return to the draft 3 pages later?

For the Record:
• There are methods laid out in previous posts to prevent clashes.
• It would be easy to trade/get players from old teams, however you could only pick so many, not the entire lot.
• Websites do not make the clan

I don't see why we let spamming noobs take away from the previous laid out solution that hurts no one:
• Current clans declared fine as they stand.
---> Cannot recruit more until down to new cap.
---> Old clans below the cap are not allowed to exceed the cap once below the cap.
• New clans are subjected to the cap on day one.

There should never be a cap regulated by the Battle League - it is not their choice as to how big or small a clan will be.  There are still enough clans to compete - hell there were more clans when :MoD: had 30 members but Mac Gaming in general is in a lul and also GhR is a dying game.

Replace "cap" with "activity limit" and it's within their power and doesn't infringe on the rights of the clan to have as many as they want... just not as many as they want to compete on the DBL.

I guess I don't understand now - what would the "activity limit" be? like members who haven't played in cb's for over 2 weeks get removed?

No No NO shade. Members will never be removed from a clan, and all players at the start of the new system, whatever clan they are in, whatever the size of that clan will be allowed to stay and compete in the DBL. But, if lets say cO has 14 people, and one leaves, they won't be able to recuit any more people. If however, cO has 9 players, and 1 leaves, they will be able to recruit up to 2 more (up to 10 or whatever limit gets decided upon). This encourgaes veteran players to join smaller clans or form new ones instead of just being another member of another large clan's bloated roster.

This also wouldn't prevent people from joining one of the larger clans for fun, but those new people wouldn't be able to participate in the DBL with that clan.

Last season there were 24 clans registered (?) for GR team competition. Of those, 15 were active.  I don't know how many members those 15 clans had. There is probably a roster, but I don't know where it is.  How many people (in all clans) are active in GR battle league?

I'm just trying to get an idea of how many teams/clans that would be at a given clan size.  How many clans do you want to see? 

I don't see how capping the clan size would produce many more teams.  Let's say, for the sake of arguement, that {E} and [a] were limited to 15 players.  That would produce at most 2 new teams.  Does that really make a difference?

If you want more variety in CB opponents, let's open the BL to PCs (gasp).

See Pg 3/4/5 [some on each] for detail on the Activity Cap.

Basically just limiting the number of active players each clan can have *ON THE DBL*. A waiting time for players moving from inactive to the active group as one goes inactive. Just a deterrent from having big clans, but not limiting the clan itself, just the CBers.

This is overcomplicating a simple matter that was meant to bring about more diversity and more cb's.  Myst, I appreciate your input, but we (at least me) are not looking for a completely new way of doing things, I agree that a change is needed to promote more clans/ more diversity, but not on a degree of that scale.  Myst it might work for RvS these days, but ghr is like we have said, a game that is slowly (and soon: within 6-10 months) going to die away.  RvS and GHR3 (if it ever comes out) will take its place as the new games,  we are just looking for something that will get us more diversity within the next half year to year. 

This option might have worked out had it been initiated early on in the games history, but now, nearing its final days, it just wont work.

i think the only thing that should be remembered here is that one of the main reasons clans have 10 or more members is because you cant always get everyone on when needed for cb's.  at least that how its been with the collective.  most of our guys have lives outside of playing video games and so not everyone is always around.  maybe 10 is a good number, maybe more is better as far as a cap is concerned.  we currently have 12 members of which only about 5 or 6 are active. 

so what am i saying??  hell i dont know  :-)  i guess what im saying is i guess it doesnt really concern the collective right now.  but when the season starts it might.  i guess what im saying i think that the cap should obviously only apply to active members.  not the total roster.  the whole reason we have 12 guys is because not all of them can be active all the time.  but i guess if your clan has 20 or 25 guys thats probably a bit excessive.  i mean i would think some of those members would want to start their own clan or division just so they could get some more minutes on the court during cb season

i didnt have the time or patience to read everyones posts so i apologize in advance if i missed anything crucial that nullifies my reply.  just felt like putting my 2 or 3 cents in

King

Dont care what anyone says this is a witch hunt on the {E} clan...yes a witch hunt i call it because....
no1= you have asked that a cap be put on size of clan.
no2= you have asked me to hand pick my favorite cbers.
no3= by doing no2 you will have created conflict in my clan because some of the guys would think i have favorites, and they would think to themselves "im better than that player why did he pick him"?
no4= by downsizeing my clan your trying to make it so we as a clan, have less fun
no5=your asking me to pick and choose my friends.....not going to happen.
no6=you think for one second that im going to anger anyone by telling him that hes not good enough to cb?...not going to happen.
i believe that that everyone in my clan has a equal chance of playing in a cb,not just my so called "best players", ask yourself, is that really fair to anyone who wants to learn to cb?, even if they are new who really cares? this is about fun and everyone who has a great time im glad they did, not for one second is anyone going to tear the fun out of it by telling me how many players i can have, comon kids, lets be grownup here.i feel real sorry for several of you because it seems to me that its all about winning it all in this great game that at the end of the season  will award a million dollars to the top clan. to think i have over 30 members at 50$ a pop for voice, thats alot of cash,you think that were going to let you dictate how we play after spending cash we work hard for??....not
i take a strong stand on this, if i had to toss up between the 2 choices of playing in the damn battleleague or pissing my good friends off by downsizing or telling them they cant cb cause there not experianced enough dbl will lose that one sorry.....no offence dbl, but i love my guys.

357 listen to yourself, take a deep breath, re-read the whole topic, and understand


         •  True True, BUT we have not said 357 you must hand pick the best {E} guys and dump the rest"
         • All that we have said is that it would be nice if clans would have a lower number of players so that we can cb more clans (have more diverse games)
         • We are saying that clans dont need to dump their members, just pick the ones that actively cb (say 10-12 members)  You have even said that half your members are inactive, so this should be no problem.

 


          • No we havnt, we have asked no one to do anything yet
          • These are just idea's nothing is set in stone, no one has told anyone that they MUST do a thing.
          • Once again you said you only have 10-12 active members



          • Everyone has favorites, whether you admit to it or not.
          • There should be no conflict like this that isnt naturally there, maybe you meant rather than Because the DBL nor any of us with opinions are making you pick anyone.  If you have picked them then thats your fault for causing conflict.  Don't place blame on anyone here.
          • Once again you only have 10-12 active members so why should it be a problem?


          • No one would be asking you to downsize your clan, only to pick the active members
          • Nothing stops you from having fun with guys not in your clan, you guys play in locked rooms so much maybe you just dont know this.

          • This sounds like number 3 all over again, read my answers to that.
          • And just to mimic your repetitiveness, you are not being asked to pick favorites, only inactive and active members

          • [sarcasm] If you have ever declined someone from joining your clan based on skill, you are doing just that [/sarcasm]
          • You arent saying they arent good enough to cb you are saying that either you want to cb against them: if they ever (heavans forbid) leave {E}
          • Or you might be saying "you arent active enough",  you arent going to let some guy whos been missing for 6 months come back and cb are you?  You are gonna wanna see if they still have it, or either you are gonna say, hey man get better then you can start cbing again.


Meh, I could type more, but I've got other stuff to do.


mag if you dont read any other parts of my post read this:

         No one is trying to make {E} split up or cause strife, this is just an idea put forth by one member of the community, and Mauti has said, there is nothing to worry about for another few seasons till DBL 2.0 comes out, so why worry?  We are all just exercising our right to free speach (more or less) and throwin our 2 cents in.  Hope to cb you next season, every single {E} out there better watch out![/color]

Mag, you're forgeting that if my idea goes through (the one that seems to have the most support around here) ALL of your current clan members/friends will be able to cb, whether you have 30 members or 5 all current {E} members would be able to cb at any time. This limit would only affect new, them me repeat for emphasis NEW members to the clan that want to be active in the ladder. It would not affect members joing your clan for fun, but if new members want to join {E} to cb, they will have to look somewhere else. No one else seems to think that this is too unreasonable.

Jesus Jerk , i thought that was weaks idea!!

 Hope to cb you next season, every single {E} out there better watch out! ::applause:: ::sniper:: ::applause:: ::sniper:: cant wait dark if it ever starts ;)

Yes please kill him for me too ;D

I think this is a dead issue now - the *DBL is not that desperate for teams and there will never be a point where it's down to 3 or 4 clans simply because the mac community has grown immensely.

The fact of the matter is and it's been stated by Mauti a few times is that the *DBL isn't forcing a cap onto clans which is good yet it suggests that they do so - so if clans want to cap of players which I doubt they will then by all means but if a clan wants to remain large than the battle league can't do shit about it - just bitch and moan.

Nobody is bringing up splitting up {E} except {E} themselves... quit taking it personally, this would effect every clan in the league, not just you guys in {E}. If you read the most recent system you'll see that it has NOTHING to do with ANY clan splitting or choosing favorites. Quit turning this into an issue solely about {E}.

been awile shade,drop me a line,you in a clan? if not maybe you should come see me then,lol, all kidding aside, thanks shade.........

I dont like the idea of the new members jerk..cause im new to {E} and i really want to cb!....so thats my two cents worth..and im done witht this topic...ill let mag take care of it.

Wolf, you havn't read the whole topic. When (if) this system takes effect, all current clan members in every clan will be be allow to stay in the clan and CB with them, it will only apply to new members after the new rules take effect.

Actually I'm a little dissapointed, you and the rest of the XL guys gave up before the season and you (you) went and joined {E}, and don't get me wrong, I like you guys {E}, but they don't need any more members. You did exactly what this entire thread is about stopping, joining a clan with a huge amount of members when you had the opportunity to have your own clan.

Dear {E}357mag,
I think the highest level issue is not how or even if to split up clans. It's about the level of competition on the DBL. I would vote for clans to have 100 players each if we there were that many people playing GhR (and I know RvS has player issues too), but the fact is, as I pointed out previously somewhere but don't have the time now to dig up the link, the community is shrinking.

Each season there are fewer teams playing competatively. In the recently completed pre-XI we had to CB cO. more than the limit of 8 because there weren't any clans on who would CB us. It's because of this that the idea of player caps came up. This thread was not started as a witch hunt on {E}, it's cry from the community to keep it alive. However, since you have the biggest clan on the DBL, people are going to focus on you.

I personally feel (and I know others do too) that your actions of gobbling up every player that comes along is hurting the community. You have 3 teams within your team. That's 3 teams the rest of us can't CB. I also feel you're hurting the community by regularly locking your room and keeping non {E} guys out. Again, 12 or 13 good players the rest of us can't play against.

Nobody wants to force you or anyone else to boot friends off their teams. You've done a great job of pulling some fine players together. However, I think you need to look at the dynamic your bloated team has created within the DBL. I think you need to think about the good of the community. I think you need to consider how you want DBL to live on over the next few seasons.

Well said, T.  Mags- I really hope you were in someway being facetious.  Look back at my first post.... the point of this is to improve comepetion, and specifically, numbers of oppenents which will increase activity.

I don't think anyone want {E} clan to break up or fold- BUT- I really liked the idea of letting you guys compete as subclans.

I know you guys are usually pretty game when it comes to playing against us, but we can only do it 8 times...  If {E} registered in three parts, then we might be able to play 24 times against your clan instead of 8.


Does that make sense?  I mean, I'm strictly looking at it from a competiton point of view.

why not just remove the cap an ask diff es to cb eahc time? play 4 new guys a night for a week

The "Focus" on 357's E Group needs to be re-focused on their own team. According to the "Current" Events seems some other clans have been stocking up themselves. I've got to know 357Mag for awhile and the members of his group. As Mag has stated he started "E" as a collection of players that fully enjoys his hosting and the fun of playing GHR. No pressure to "Have" to play CB type of games, just the norm..seige and such. Your going to have to face it. No new people like the "Mindsets" of some of the Clans. Go to each other's Clan Websites and read the qualifications.
1. You need to have Prem or NF or iChat or 2 cans and string.
2. You need to be from the country/area of clanmembers
3. You need to be "tested"
4. You need to be a certain age

All to do to join E's group is:
1. Good gamesmanship
2. Good social behavior
3. And have been playing with Mag's group for a while.

Sounds pretty darn sensible to me.

New people enjoy having more than 1 spawn. New people enjoy seige, co-op, assasination. They've observed the attitude of some clanmembers bullying tactics whenever (Gameplay/Maps). And simply said,
why on earth would they allow themselves to be downgraded or humiliated? They're on GameRanger and Ghost Recon to have fun. One of the clans I highly respect are the cO's. They've been through crap, but they've picked themselves up..dusted off and are ready for action. They bring something into GHR that a clan needs to learn:
1.Trustworthiness
2.Respect
3.Fairness

357's shows all those and wanted a group to show that as well. He has that.
*nRg is about 1-2 players shy of having a CB Team which if we don't get em.. I'll prolly release my Clanleader title, and move on.

So again if your having those troubling thoughts that there are not enough clans to battle.. look within.
You've turned alot of people off from wanting to do CB's.

well jerk...lets see.... i have my reasons for leaving «XL»....

1. I was offered a membership in {E} becuase most of my friends are in there and ive tried to get in before and they said no...i wanted to be with the remaining *AG* members who went over to {E}

2.PuN is just plain an asshole...nothing more...nothing less....

3.Participation in the clan was way down low....brandon was hardly on for a whole week.... pun would just put up a chatroom and sit there and do nothing ( he thinks hes soo good that he doesnt need to go and do practice)

4. we were turned down by Ee. Executor when he was clanless and that was a sign that we sucked as a group...

5. CHECKsix was never on either....so...

6. and Pun is a horrible leader....not much participation...cant make up his mind ect....

so you see i have my reasons....so dont bag on me for leaving a crappy clan that wasnt going to even make it into the season...i would love for a couple of new clans to show up and cb against....so im not against new clans or anything either....thats it for me...bye!

Would be nice to see some more clans, but I'm not sure a member limit would solve the problem. I think that as soon as the season starts (it's been a while!) many newer clanmembers will come to the realization that the cb'ing they were hoping for isn't occuring due to rank, experience, and frankly favouratism. This will cauze some to leave and start their own clan, in hope of some cb action. Unfortunately the season will allready have started and they will have to wait untill next season. But by the start of the next season they will have gotten bored with waiting and joined their old buddies again only to go through the same cycle again.

Maybe having smaller time gaps between seasons will motivate more clan forming???

Just a thougt, shoot me down if ya want

RoeM

maybe all these great players in other clans should spin off and start there own clan just as i have done? now theres an idea! alot of my clan brothers were newbies, whos to say you cant build a rookie team into a real power house cbing group? if we really need more cb teams then im sure some of you great leaders or top players could step forward and do this?, any one in my clan are free to go and start there own clan if they want to so....maybe no one in other clans would have objections to some of there players leaving and doing this? i have a a nomination, maybe weakspot, "you" could spin off and do this?(you would be a great leader) make your own clan? MR T is the leader of special forces right? maybe you could do this too jerk!, now there is an idea! dont give me the crap that there is no players or talent to choose from cause i get asked everytime i get on gr by someone if they could be in {E}, this is a wonderful idea, you know you all are bitching about the fact that there are not enough clans.....so do something about it, take your great leadership skills and get to work! start a clan today ! hell maybe ill start another clan and appoint a leader from my clan to manage it ! (that is if i see some response that other clan player/leaders spin off and do this)...."maybe we could meet in the middle"? the problem here is not clan size....it is haveing great leaders , someone appealing that people are drawn to as a leader...so step forward leaders, lets make some new clans.

sounds *DAMN good for me, and to keep from having ppl play noob clans to take all there sheep just limit that idead to he larger clans. just a thought ::applause:: ::applause:: ::applause::

fixed quotes

WEll said Mag....."Checkmate"

Mag, I understand what your trying to say, and in all fairness to you'll I'll address the issue that has been brought up. I joined [:] because I felt it was a good group of guys that I could get along with and have some good games with. When I joined, the [:] roster was hurting. They had lost several members and they rarely had even 3 people on. I'll admit to wanting to recruit more active plays, and because of that commitment, we now have 9, count them... 9 players on the ghr ladder, with several that are rarely online. The only reason we ever seem to have a large roster is because all our active members, are very, very active. Still, we have often have trouble finding enough of us online to to even do a 4v4 CB. Right now, I think our clan size is perfect, considering the amount of active players that we have, and it's just enough that we can CB on a regular basis. Now, I don't think 9 players is too many, and I think everyone here would agree with that.

I would like to start my own clan mag, but unfortunately, I already have enough previous experience in that field to know that I don't either have the time, patience, or energy to do so. I think you bring up a good point about there not being enough people with good leadership skills on gameranger (least so you assume) but I don't think that that's the problem that we are facing right now.

I guess I havn't been clear enough in my pervious comments about my idea of a cap system. It would NOT force clans to downsize, EVER. What it would do is put a cap on new recruiting to prevent medium size or larger clans from becoming larger then they need to be. This would not prevent someone from joining your clan just to have fun and play some games with his/her friends, but if that person wants to compete in the DBL, they would be out of luck. If that ruin's your fun, too bad, because at least in this league, the needs of the many seem to outway the needs of the few.

Wolfman, I didn't know about PuN's lack of leadership skills, and I'm sorry not only for you, but for everyone else that was looking forward to cbing with some new clans this season.

w00t w00t!!!!!!  yeah Mag...tell 'em strait!!!! ::applause:: ::sniper::

i still think putting a stop on recruiting for cbing is gay as hell but hey....and i still think mag is right and your wrong..nothing personal..please dont let this subject affect they way we are arround eachother on GR..cya

Mysterio, or Punisher, whoever the hell you are...STFU you chickenshit.

been there, done that... it was called cO. and we're probably one of the most active clans on GR these days with a wopping 10 members!

Well, heres to another season of sitting around for hours waiting to never cb.

nark?

I did that already, dude... I left *nRg to start [:] because we got too big and bloated. I felt the community need a new, competative team and I knew it wasn't going to happen there. I have 9 expert player who are on weekly if not daily. Don't tell me what to do.

But back to the bigger issue... In your rants you're avoiding them. We all know how you feel about your team, but I'm talking about the community. Do you not see what's happening? The presence of one or two large teams on the DBL is like what happens when WalMart moves into a small town. Before WalMart, there's a nice little collection of mom and pop shops that work together to support a finely balanced community. After, with the balance disrupted, the community collapses.

(The only good thing about WalMart is that they hire all the local retards, but that analogy doesn't apply in the this situation.)

I think there's a collapse coming in the near future. Look at the numbers... in season X there were only 8 teams that were "competative"... and by that I mean, played more than 10 CBs. Then, if you look at the XI preseason, there are only 7* clans that played that many. One of them was [?] which imploded (again) so that wipes out a good team effectively bringing the number to 6. I know new teams have started up, but who knows what's going to happen with them.

Don't you care about the community? Don't you want to see more activity? Have more clans to CB? If you could think about the DBL beyond your little feifdom we might be able to keep the games going.

Shit, BE like WalMart and open a fucking franchise. Start up 2 or 3 smaller teams under the {E} brand.



*Footnote: I couldn't find the final results in the forums, but that was data I took from near the end for another posting I made.

Well you could sit around waiting to cb or you could do a cb and sit around in the room waiting on people which is all that happens in cbs. Last season during cbs i have had to wait while the opposition has a "10 minute smoke" or "walks there dog" or "getting something to eat" so a cb can turn into a 2+ hour ordeal. Fix this and you will go a long way to fixing the lack on activity.

Well some of thoes can wait - but people do have lives.

I think Mag said it all in this post:
"Dont care what anyone says this is a witch hunt on the {E} clan...yes a witch hunt i call it because....
no1= you have asked that a cap be put on size of clan.
no2= you have asked me to hand pick my favorite cbers.
no3= by doing no2 you will have created conflict in my clan because some of the guys would think i have favorites, and they would think to themselves "im better than that player why did he pick him"?
no4= by downsizeing my clan your trying to make it so we as a clan, have less fun
no5=your asking me to pick and choose my friends.....not going to happen.
no6=you think for one second that im going to anger anyone by telling him that hes not good enough to cb?...not going to happen.
i believe that that everyone in my clan has a equal chance of playing in a cb,not just my so called "best players", ask yourself, is that really fair to anyone who wants to learn to cb?, even if they are new who really cares? this is about fun and everyone who has a great time im glad they did, not for one second is anyone going to tear the fun out of it by telling me how many players i can have, comon kids, lets be grownup here.i feel real sorry for several of you because it seems to me that its all about winning it all in this great game that at the end of the season  will award a million dollars to the top clan. to think i have over 30 members at 50$ a pop for voice, thats alot of cash,you think that were going to let you dictate how we play after spending cash we work hard for??....not
i take a strong stand on this, if i had to toss up between the 2 choices of playing in the damn battleleague or pissing my good friends off by downsizing or telling them they cant cb cause there not experianced enough dbl will lose that one sorry.....no offence dbl, but i love my guys."

Now thats loyalty that you can't get at Walmart. The E members have made their choice on who..what..and where they play. DBL is for all of us and not just for Clans. Mauti and his Crew support ALL.
If it's getting "Old hat" replaying the same clans over and over.. then maybe the active CB clans need to downsize themselves. 357's group just plain makes playing Ghost Recon fun. And Mauti's site and support makes it great having a Center for all to meet and talk about issues. The world doesn't revolve around CB's.

Mag may have "said it all" but it doesn't mean he was responding to the right issue at hand. No one was asking him to do any of the things that he said he wouldn't do, so him telling us that he won't do those things means little to the ongoing debate. If member decide to leave and clan, and a "cap" prevents them from joining others (as it does in most sports), then those veteran players are more likely start new clans instead of offering their services to established clans that don't need them. Though I respect that the DBL is about fun, most of the fun for a significant portion of this community is the competetion in the DBL. If it wasn't for the league, I wouldn't be here and I suspect many others feel the same. I like playing ghost recon, but as time goes on, it's the competition that keeps me interested. I guess I'm just not ready to see the ghost recon league die, not because there wern't enough players, but because there wern't enough clans to cb.

Then I say to that last post: Let the other clans that are more competive lessen your own clan list!
E members made their choice just like you have . Respect their choice..they've respected yours.

still no takers on starting new cb teams? in response to MR T, i didnt name you to go start a clan, i said weak or jerk could start a new one (cause i know there pushing for more clans), they would be great leaders,im sure people woud join there clan with no problems at all (i know u have a clan T, im just looking for people out there that would even want to start another clan in general) a talented player that people would respect....i see no one has stepped forward to take on the task yet, if any of my guys want to leave there free to do so, they know ill miss them but thats ok with me.tick tock...no one steps forward yet so the problem is not large clans, its lack of leaders that want to lead them, i know the reason most dont care to lead, cause maybe the bullshit? dont blame the amount of players i have on the reason as to why there are less clans,the real reason is no one wants to lead one*still no takers?

also lets add another note to this "flaming ass thread", what ever happend to alot of the other clans that used to play alot? maybe we could hunt them down and get them to start there clans back up? this would really help the community, in fact i can think of a great clan right now that im sure woud be willing to play, how about "curtain no1", "THE DAMN BATTLE LEAGUE CLAN"!,maybe you could talk to them for us huh MR T?, sence after all your an admin and [:] and others are pushing for more clans, maybe you and [:] guys could get them in the ring with us once agin?(sorry battleleague didnt mean to drag you into this).... cause i know alot of clans like [:] and all the others who have posted may call you on the phone everyday, send you mass emails,ect. to try to get you to come back in and play, LOL (im sure the battle league clan guys are all sitting around and thanking me for this one)....but in fact i really enjoyed playing you people a couple of season ago.... i think i even msg ya after the cb and said to you how your clan was a "class act" hope to see ya there !

I don't think you get the point mag... [:] is already a 9 member clan... which is usually just enough to cb. same with cO and many other clans... 10 members for cO is perfect, as a matter of fact we're downgrading, we just had 12 last week. It makes no sense for sombody in a 9 man clan to break off, that would just lessen that clans activity. BUT, it's a whole new story when it comes to a 22 man clan, you can afford to do this. Just tonight I saw {E} had 11 players online and playing.

Don't get me wrong, I love playing against you guys... and I'm not trying to lay all of this on {E}, but that's what this topic has turned into. Nobody is forcing you to do anything you don't want... just politely asking for your help in increasing the activity in the league.

I really like all the {E} fellas.  Really really really do... Rob is always a riot and I remember doing training back with Ive and Malign before the beginning of last season.  It was really cool.  You are the only clan i talk to after we cb and really talk about the tough cb's we have.

I've never been a dick to you directly and even though I might not agree with Mags, i've never been rude.


Mag, step away from the other stuff that other people have interjected in those post.  Realize that in my original  post I say that I don't even advocate for al clan limite, but wanted it debated.

RELAX, MAN.  RELAX, BRO!  WE CAN HUG IT OUT.


We know you guys are awesome and was hoping that your large amount of members could the community by registering as 3 teams thus expanding the amount we could CB.  No one is forcing you.  No one is lobbying for it.  We are asking if thats possible.


As for me starting a clan.... I left from *nRg with T because we were bloated and wanted a new clan.  Was I asked to join other existing clan?  YES!  Man, YOU even wanted me to join and then wanted [:] to join WITH {E}.

You run your clan as you see fit as we run our clan as we see fit.  We are debating.  I'm genuinly sorry if you feel atacked or like we are trying to attack you.

CHILL.  WE LOVE YOU MAG!  ::bussi::

Mags, as well as Macuber... read the the latest idea... no clan would be forced to cut any players at all for any reason ever.  NEW clans would be capped at 'X'.

 Besides all of this is just tossing out ideas.  I'm thinking you guys must have my posts blocked because you are making it seem like someone is asking {E} to cut players and start a new clan anf NO ONE is asking that.  We are bringing an issue to light- lack of competition-- and we are hoping to promote the growth and start of more clan... not the break up of established ones.

Just tonight I saw {E} had 11 players online and playing.
and if i recall it was kinda hard just to get 7 ppl to  practise cb with ya guys, i was all for a 6v7 cause we all know it was a practise. i think its time for a group hug and let bygones be bygones. they are not or should not force it im sure for this season. LET"S GET IT ON!!!! (main season)sry had celebrity wars stuck in my head

p.s. gg's had fun ;)

Why would we want to bring back guys who don't want to/have time to play the game anymore? That's not a logical way to bolster the community -- it's like, hey guys, you don't like this game? Well would you start a team and play competatively in our league? Dumb.


Again, you're missing the point. I shouldn't have to explain the dynamics of my a team to you, but [:] currently has 9 players. That's the bare minimum it seems to take to have a regular season of CBing. If Weak and Jerk left, [:] wouldn't be able to play competatively. Also, their new clans wouldn't be able to CB because they wouldn't initially have enough guys. It would take at least a season or two to get to CBing strength. That's what it took to get [:] up to size. That would deminish the roster to 5 clans (based on my previous accounting) playing competatively. Again, you're ideas shrink the community.


Thank you Mag for proving my point. Your comment is the PERFECT arguement for a cap on team size. Sure, why start a clan when you can just join a clan or sit comfortably in the one you're in? It's certainly easier to follow than lead, right? Well, if there was a cap, people interested in CBing would be forced to either fill out the smaller clans or start their own. Right now, they can just join any clan that will take them and the larger clans have the gravatas that draws them.

So, based on your comment above, you'd be for a cap on teams? That would have the effect you're asking for... more leaders to start clans.

And if you ignore eveything in this post like you have in my others, at least read this... You have the largest team in the DBL. You effectively have sway over its future structure. You talk about leadership -- show some and help support it. I've done my part by starting a team that's both right for its players and right for the community. Think about your actions beyond yourself.

Isn't there a rule that limits the number of times you can CB a particular clan?  Why not just get rid of the rule so you can CB other clans as many times as you want.  I don't think its fair to flame or force the larger clans to break up.  The smaller clans are the ones that are hardest to setup a CB with.  You need to catch them when their members are all online or able to come online.  I'm talking about clans that only have about 7 members.  Forcing a large clan to break up is only gona worsen the problem because then you will have several small clans that will only be able to CB when all of their members are online.  Then when the postseason arrives, the smaller clans members might not even be able to show up on a particular day for a playoff match and the clan is forced to forfeit.  I started a clan 3 years ago instead of joining an existing clan because I liked the challenge of building a clan from scratch and helping the players around me get better.  This is only my opinion and thoughts, please do not flame me, I am not refering to any particular clan in general with this opinion.

every game ive played the teams that people want to be a part of our the larger clans. Not many of us walked onto gameranger and had a spot in our clans waitin every member community worked for there spot in there respected team. Instead making new rules how bout let the players decide how they want it more cbs start a clan. Pretty soon im gonna be payin taxes to the dbl im here for this community but this is a game

Because with the sheep system we had problems with clans that would keep on playing eachother and basically giving eachother sheep (this could also be done with any other system) purposely lose to give the other clan points/sheep... which is now known as a form of cheating. After this rules was added this decreased quite a bit. People don't really want to waste one of their six cbs with a certain clan just to gain a couple sheep. Every rule is added for a pretty good reason.

If you're not going to bother to read the previous posts then please don't post at all. GO READ JERKs SOLUTION then come back

for the last time, NOBODY IS ASKING {E} TO SPLIT UP... go read the other posts.

Point 1
Mag, by asking us to "Split off from our clans, and form our own clans"

You are asking us to disband blatantly,  now you dont want us to start accusing {E} of trying to get all of the clans we are in to downsize.

Point 2
Even if we did start our own clan, {E} gobbles up any newcomer that shows a hint of potential.  Where are we supposed to get members except from existing clans or {E}.

Point 3

Why not ask your guys to start a new cb team, you are so keen on asking us to, but you cant even look in your own backyard for a "leader" to  emerge and form a new clan.



Dont start bitchin that Im asking you to disband, Im just tellin ya that you are being a huge hypocrite buddy

Split , add, drop, recruit,cap ,sub clan, oh fuck, this thread is so back and forth its getting sickening, it seems that everyone has had their say, now it seems that its more of a he said this he said that, im wondering when the admins are actually going to put a suggestion out, they are the ones that really matter here. There have been some good ideas come from here, but there have been some not so good ones too. I understand the need for a cap,or something like that, i see what is happening, if anyone out there thinks we dont get it, well your mistaken. This forum started out of concern for the league, and as many of you said, " its not directed at {E}. If you were sitting on our side of the fence you probably would have seem it differently. Comments like " you dont care about the league and you taking all the good players, well that just adds to the tough feelings that some may have because of this. All i really know is that most of the members of {E} are here to play. Everyone on gameranger is here to play. When you first started on gameranger, it was to play and have fun, you didnt know about any battle league, all you knew was that it was a place to go to play your favorite games and have some fun. It has progressed quite far since then. Its become controversial, political, demanding and sometimes very nasty. I know a lot of you guys playing today that were here 4 years ago, arent playing it with the same kind of enjoyment now as you were then, its totally differnt now.
wow have i rambled on here, i guess what im trying to say here people , is that for the most part, we just want to play the game, and almost all of the clan is here to just play the game, not all but most, cbing is an extra thing that just happens. If people want to join the clan because they just want to have a good time with no preasure to cb, why not, what other clan can they join here that wont give them that same preasure. Im not intending to insult anyone here but if PO cO ZT and a few others wer to take on new guys, they would expect them to cb, or they wouldnt take them on, pretty true right guys, and im not faulting you for this either. Its just that on the other hand , we dont have that stipulation when they come to us, if they want to they can, they dont have to be good they just have to want to, or not, no preasure. Get it. Thats why we have so many i guess not because we went looking but because its a relaxed comfortable place to be. Like it use to be. So , again I say. lets see what the admins have to say about all of this, and lets get the season going, there are still some over here that look forward to cbing but not quite as many as a lot of you think.

guess clan you start with have be more appealing:) Quite few our guys were built from ground up we have learned alot from each other. We give the newer talent a chance to get soem cb experince any {E} member will happly step aside to let another cb. We dont have set cbers

would it be any help to you guys if some noobs that come and ask us to join that we say no and recomend some other clans to join...so that maybe it will even things out...we would even recomend some of the new clans that i know you awsome leaders will be starting any time now!!  ;) ::sniper::

Ive stayed out of this thread for fear of pissing anyone off but there is something I dont understand. If {E} says they dont want to turn away any of their current members and they are the largest clan and apparently under fire for being so, why did I see a recruiting room open for {E} last night (8/31/05). If the community feels you are too big, you dont like this nor want to turn your current members away, then why continue recruiting? You're already big. Why take more members from the pool especially if you are suggesting that other clans downsize and create other clans. Spread the wealth.

Of course maybe I just didnt understand and it was just a big joke to have a room open for recruiting more {E} but it didnt seem so.

Ein

I missed that one!!!

lol actually e was chatiin in a locked room with name enlist here. mostly because when we came out we found that "coughs" had formed :P although tom from aoe wanted to enlist lol

Yay or nay for what system? Several have been proposed here, so which one do you want us to be voting on? I may not be a clan leader, but I think this matters a great deal.

is there any way that non clan leaders can veiw the poll results?? i think everyone should be able to see it..just to know

forget it. my plan was riddled with holes so I gave up. you can go back to arguing now.

lol!...what happened spike???

You tried at least.

I've tried to end this conversation multiple times but it just won't die.

u 2?

BTW.. thank you Spike for the excellant job of Moderator here.

heh, i dont think i did any moderating in this thread, it as mostly brutha.

btw, why are they not trying to join your clans? i have no problems getting members....anyways im done with this ...

We get asked daily, we are just not taking any, Mags... Makes no sense to us, we already have enough, but that's just us! I respect your philosophy even though I do not share it !

cO also gets asked daily... and we have a great 10 man team... we're also not really looking for anymore members.

Thank god we only get asked once every two years.

i have released {E} weedwacker from our clan, maybe he will start one....i think he might

good for him.  Did he leave, or did you boot him?

he left us he unfortunatly didnt agree on {E}s size. Think Macuber might pick him up for nrg get them cbin again. Wish weed best were every he goes

dark you day "good for him" like its a good thing he left {E} and that your proud of him or something....

Weed just wants an opportunity to cb. Good for him as in good that he will most likelly have an opportunity to compete.

... And that just about sums up the topic here, gonna let it take a breather - everything that needs to be said seems to have been covered.