*DAMN R6 Forum

(http://a.abcnews.com/images/WNT/abc_wnt_spank_050503_t.jpg)

Here's some gaffs from the article:

"Tyler Wallick says it is out of faith and love that he spanks his children. He is one of a number of fundamentalist Christians, who in their literal interpretation of the Bible, regard corporal punishment as a religious and parental duty."

and

""The bottom line is — people who do not think it is OK to paddle their children do not believe God's word," he said."

and

"It was an ad for one such device — a nylon whipping stick designed specifically to spank children — that provoked Susan Lawrence of Arlington, Mass., herself a Christian, to launch a Web-based crusade to outlaw spanking.

She says some Evangelicals are wrongly relying on verses from the Old Testament — with its wrathful God — when they should be looking to the gentle Jesus of the New Testament."

and

""Why don't we also keep slaves now? Stoning our daughters who may be gotten pregnant before marriage? All that is in the Bible [Old Testament] too," said Al Crowell, director of the San-Francisco based advocacy group Christians for Nonviolent Parenting."

I'm glad to see the Christian community debating this. For me, this sort of brutality drives to the core of the problem with fundamentalists -- excusing their own evil acts as God's will.


http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=724772&page=1

no matter what the outcome of this debate is (probably nothing will change), parents will still do what they see as fit. if your kids are acting up, chances are it's your fault....maybe in the future we'll have robots that whip the parents' asses when their kid acts like a shmuck.

I fail to see the logic in spanking a child, especially younger children, of the age that they cannot understand why they are being spanked.  If they dont know the reason, then all they learn is that at any given moment at any given time, a whole world of hurt can land on their backside, not that tipping over and breaking the flower vase is bad.  And if they can understand the reason why, at that age the pain is but a brief instant, it doesnt last more than a couple minutes, if that, and at that age, that brief pain wont really register in the long-term memory of the kids, and theyll likely just do it again.

To me, spanking is the last resort of parents who are either inherantly violent/angry people, or are too lazy to discipline their children in a non-violent way.  Someone might say to me "i got spanked every ten minutes by my parents when I was a kid, I got spanked so often my ass was bleeding for the first seven years of my life! And I'm not dysfunctional, so spanking must be ok."  Well sure, but then look at me, who was never spanked once in my life.  My parents never struck me, period.  Despite this, I would argue that I am still a normal human being, not a saint by any means, but im certainly not a crackheaded highschool dropout either.  I think once parents resort to spanking, it means that they have failed their job as parents.

I don't think that spanking should be your only disciplinary action, but to say you shouldn't spank at all...nonsense. I think kids get away with a lot more than they used to nowadays, and part of the reason for that is the lack of spanking. If all you do is spank your child, of course they're not going to learn. But if all you do is tell them "No, you shouldn't do that, because it's wrong. Mommy says don't do that!" they're not going to learn either, because there's no real consequences for their action. The kids will end up being put on some pill because they have some sort of "attention disorder." Yelling can be just as traumatic as years of spanking. My parents would spank me every now and then, but they also raised me to respect others. They used spanking as an addition to the discipline they were already teaching me. I think I turned out pretty well. Hell of a lot better than 95% of the kids around here. Now, as for spanking being a "Christian Duty", I think that's a load of bull, and it's just going to open up a whole can of worms of parents just spanking their children silly. I don't think parents should outlaw spanking completely. They just shouldn't rely on it as the only way of disciplining their child. I'm probably repeating myself, so I'll just stop.

Well, I guess it depends on the child.  In my case, I was born with a very readily accessible sense of guilt and wrongdoing if my parents told me I did  something wrong (and they were very clear about that, they yelled at me, not abusively, but just very loud voice that at my young age almost literally scared the piss out of me).  So spanking was never needed.  I agree with you very wholeheartedly though Mellow, that kids get away with too much shit these days, starting, I think, with my generation (I'm currently 19) when things just kind of started to fall through.  In part because parents are so busy these days, they usually both are working, and get home so tired from work they've got no umph left in them to discipline their children for the limited time they're at home, thereby granting their kids more leniency than they should really have, and not being around them enough to impart good values and behaviors to them.  Yes, some of the personality is genetic, and therefore out of the realm of parental influence, but I still believe an overwhelming majority of a childs personality is adopted to some degree from their parents, or, from their parents action (or sometimes lack thereof).

I think regarding the behaviour of children and the control that parents reign over them is not effective if the only way is through acts of violence - and that is for several reasons. There is the famouse (actually its not famous at all i don't know why i said that) secario of young children hitting their parents - the responce is "no you dont hit mummy/daddy its wrong" and if/when the child persists they get a slap/spank...  So you tell your kid one thing, and then do another - not good role model. hitting parents was an example - its more a case of violence - the idea it is acceptable to cause physical pain to another person - and that you learn that from the most inportant people in your life, your parents.

I have seen through countless studies and research from my days studying Psychology that there are far far more effective ways of keeping control over your children - the most blindingly obviouse is reintroducing what so many parent-chiild relationships seem to have lost or never made - a link of respect and care - where the child does not want to cause any harm or pain to his/her parent - and knows that his/her parent feels the same.
- for me personally i have allways had a very strong determination not to do anything that caused my parents grief in any way - i felt/feel so attached to them that i will do whatever i can to make sure they are not harmed. - So, if they displayed unhappyness/pain/anger at my actions i felt bad, i felt guilty and i sure as hell didn't want to do it again. - ok i wasn't the perfect kid and im not kidding myself but.... and im not saying this turns you into a soppy pile of shit, but if there is one thing i think we have a great need of is for more empathy, for people to think about others and how their own actions affect them - be it thinking about the concequences of war to being being to lazy to recycle your house waste. There seems to be a growing sense of "look after me and my own and fuck everyone else" that disgusts me, and has a lot to answer for given the state of this world.

And a lot of what we see in the media or in peoples general view about the lack of respect and the growing increase of crime cased by young kids etc is our fault - or rather the fault of society. we live in a world now where parents on average spend less and less time with their children - be it because both parents work full time, or because its easier at the end of the day for the kids to sit at the computer and play computer games because it keeps them quiet. The strong contact time between parents and children seems to be being increasingly squeezed out of modern society. - and i don't think hitting your kid if they don't listen (because of their lack of respect they have for you, possibly rightly) is the answer.

All of that said, there are times and there are points where a quick smack on the ass can be called for - its just not the alternative for bringing up responsible caring children - and who can you blame if they don't grow up to respect and care for you and others?

And to wind back on topic? Well its just another reason why Christian Fundamentalists scare the fuck out of me.... but also what a joke it is - how they seem to pick out select parts of the bible to live by, but totally ignore others. Its exacty the same with the islamic fundamentalists - both they and christian fundamentalits are not true to their faith - they pick out the bits that suit them and dwell on them, while ignoring and disgarding anypart that they do not agree with or do not want to have to adhere to. disgusting.

and thats my break over. back to work! nice to have a good debate topic in the gg to talk bout though :D

not to come accross wrong, and hell you can all have your opinions, but wait until you actually become parents.

From a very early age, children figure out how to twist, manipulate you and just general make you crack into depression/being very tired all the time and just generally fed up.

Try having 3-4hrs sleep most nights, working all day, cooking/cleaning then decorating, paying bills general everyday stuff, not being able to go out because you have to buy nappies(dypers) baby milk etc. Unless you have good support like grandparents, that can take the kids of your hands for a bit, it soon gets hard. It is possibly the most trying time of your life. But on a lighter note, its also the best experience you will ever have. to see them walk for the first time, first words etc.

I/my wife have never smacked/spanked my daughter for  bad behavior, not because we are against it, we just don't do it. We use other methods, like ignoring them - she soon gets fed up when she isnt getting the attention, also, we have a naughty step which she has to sit on (sometimes doesnt work well, keeping a 3 1/2 year old still is quite difficult). We occaisinally shout at her, which makes her burst into tears.

But every child is different, some kids are just generally naughty, and some of the time its not down to parenting skills, when kids join nurserys/child groups they pick bad behaviors up from other kids and its hard to get it back out of them.

sorry onwig, i just read your post, then read mine, and i think i didn't communicate myself very well, i sound like im on a parent bashing mode or something. Ahh yes, you should meet a couple of my cousins. They are absolute pro's at it.

wig, did you watch any of those 'supernanny' programmes on tv? (the naughty step rang a bell) i caught a bit of one of them on tv, bloody hell she didn't half turn the house around and set things straight!!

nah, didnt see any of them, the naughty step thing was from school, they might have got the idea from the tv series.

We got those shows here in the states as well, they even had pohms as the nannies.  I watched one for about 20 minutes and for a "reality show" it was so obviously scripted it was rediculous.  I think bullshit like that does more to hurt people's perceptions of child care than help them, but whatever makes money i guess...

It is my belief that spanking only came to exist because parents were unable to figure out how else to get their kids not to do something. Starting as early in life as possible, parents should be teaching kids why they should and should not do certain things. Spanking is only providing a direct cause-effect relationship that the child remembers. The problem with that is the child thinks (lets use Lone's flower vase example) that the only reason he shouldn't knock over the flower vase is because he'll then get spanked. That's not teaching the child that he shouldn't knock over the flower vase because it's a valuable vase, or it has flowers that Dad bought for Mom's birthday in it, or that their flowers that Mom grew in her garden. The child isn't thinking about WHY it was wrong of them to knock over the vase in the first place. They're only thinking about the fact that if they knock over the flower vase, they get spanked. So what does this all mean? The child has to go around, knocking down everything in the house, and getting spanked for all of them, so that he won't knock everything in the house down again? What about explaining to the child that they shouldn't be doing what they did BECAUSE... yada yada. Then that child actually has something to work with, and now you're getting into the emotions of the child; you're breaking into ground where the child is going to begin to be able to recognize right from wrong, and make conscious decisions on his or her own. Spanking isn't getting to the root of the problem.

Anyway, now that I feel I've successfully continued this little tradition of repeating myself 3 times in one paragraph, I'll stop.

You seriously think that even if you 'splain it realllly good, a four year old is gonna be able to reason thru the entire process. that throwing the ball will break the vase and that is bad because mommy and daddy bought it on their honeymoon trip to french guyana, and therefore very rare? no. Most kids dont CARE about your vase or your feelings about it. They WILL care about a spanking....even a light one.
Many times, they need immediate stimulus...reasoning doent always work, and dyoull understand around the time the terrible twos hit.

And this argument is getting all screwed up in its logic because its soooo easy to slap the label of abuse onto spanking (becuase of concrete cases of abuse) and saying that a spanking ISNT going to get the lesson at hand across. One does NOT follow from the other in all cases.... Im in agreement that there are alternative ways to explain CERTAIN things, but the immediate cuase effect of DO THIS=GET SPANKED works..and no amount of trying to equate that to a psychological damaging action is going to make that any less true. I can remeber several VERy specific lessons that it helped me learn....one was electricity, the other was the stove...for some reason i wouldnt leave either alone,and it required a spanking. Saved the house im sure, and kept me from frying myself.  I didnt understand electricty, but understood a spanking.

(im going to reiterate that i see the difference between non-differentiated, abuse or beating in anger and spanking, becuase i can see that the two have already been equated in the minds of many) the logic of that cannot be further fromt he truth.

Heres is a case of the glass being half full AND half empty in that there is validity to both sides..but neither is correct in its entirety..yes some kids respond to a psychological outsmarting...some dont..then need to be spanked...(NOT BEATEN OK?...spanked)

Sit in one of my wifes HIGH SCHOOL classes and youlll realize that spanking or not..our country is FUCKED..and i mean FUCKED beacuease of the fear of children and the fear of discipline, and the SUPEr fear of people like those of you who are equating discipline with abuse..and threatening legal action and intervention over the application of either...
Some of it is caused by the general principle of no discilpine,and some is caused becuase there was no physical lesson to be learned to enforce the REASON/Motivation for discipline early...
Sure, spanking is not ALWAYS the answer..but neither is touchy feely, "heres why i would like you to behave garbage"...Depends on situation.

**It is my belief that spanking only came to exist because parents were unable to figure out how else to get their kids not to do something.**MP5SNIPE  ...

and yes snipe sometimes thats true, therefore, sometimes necessary.....But, see what happens when your child wont stop pulling on food at the stove even tho youve explained it thouroughly, sensitively, and touchingly to them..just see...

It's all opinion so theres no point in disagreeing with me   :)

"those of you who are equating discipline with abuse"

Here's the rub. Spanking isn't discipline, it's hitting.

Lack of spanking isn't the problem. Lack of discipline is. Part of the problem is that too many parents lack the will or desire to properly discipline their kid. That doesn't mean spanking them, that means finding ways to teach an important lesson. it doesn't mean being all lovely dovey. No fucking way. It does mean being consistant.

Some people equate violene with discipline, and use spanking as a quick fix or easy out. I won't deny that a good spanking will teach a child something pretty quick. But, it's teaching more than one thing. It's first lesson is, don't fucking do that or I'll hurt you. It's second lesson is, violence is the solution to complex problems. Neither lesson is one I believe we should be teaching kids.

The other side of this is, that if you're dead set on spanking your kids in order to discipline them then you, the parent, needs to be disciplined in how you issue a spanking. Which, I think, is rarely if ever true.

The only way a spanking can teach a good lesson is as a negative: Don't do that, coupled with, this is your punishment. But, in order for a child to understand this good lesson the child has to be able to understand a lot of other things. I doubt many four years can make a distinction between a spanking for nearly electrocuting themselves and a spanking because they spilled mommy's coffee on her new shoes.

Essentially, the rationale for spanking a child immeadiately breaks down once you analysis it -- one presumes the child can learn the lesson no other way, but, also assumes the child is sohisticated enough to learn the lesson being taught. It's doesn't work like that.

Now, if you're goal is to turn your child into a creature one step from some herd beast then sure, a spanking is an excellent solution. But we are not raising cows, people. We are raising human beings.

Sixhits-

Again, as I feared...you have broadbrushed the 'abuse' angle until it conveniently appeared to back up your argument. But you have failed in the critical steps of your logical argument.

Presumeably the first being, that if, as you contend, a child can comprehend your explanations for not doing 'X', then why wouldnt they be able to comprehend that you are intervening in their behalf, and helping them associate a spanking as a REPLACEMENT for the negative consequence of doing 'X". And for the purposed of MY argument, that is all that spanking is...a substitue for the grease burn, electrical shock, being hit by a car, etc....

No where in your post did you address how you might convince a persistant four year old to stop grabbing things on the stove,fiddling with sockets, or running into the street...RIGHT NOW..no, not in a few days, not in a week, but NOW...For those instances you dont have the luxury of time to get it across to the point where it sinks in.

This being a completely SUBjective argument, the pros and cons are completely in the eyes of the beholder. Faulting parents who Do use this as a supplemental learning tool for the more immediate instances, and resorting to the abuse argument is typical of the liberal "lets be so afraid of it and collectively mortified by it, that we fail to examine objectively, and villify those who think differently than we do" debate style. (which is EXACTLY what liberals claim is the exclusive domain of the conservatives) Further, its a typical liberal presumption, failing to concede that opinions or methods or approaches which differ from their own contain merit .... Slapping your own bias all over it, so that you can use the immediate (sometimes appropriate) visceral reaction to your premise to add to the weight of the facts you bring to the table is THE ONE logical mis-step that threatens to topple your entire argument. it doesnt make your opinion more factual or correct than mine. In many cases, less so.

Prove to me that you are truly objective; distance yourself from the 'emotional' angle of equating all physical discipline with VIOLENCE, and admit that if I can profess that FOR ME, and many like me, that since there were no negative effect whatsoever,and TONS of positive consequence, that my argument MUST contain some truth as well. If youre unable to do this, you are not debating your view...you are pushing it.

I can tell you that 100% percent in my case, I am grateful for the specific lessons that I was able to grasp due to the immediacy of a small pop..(also, did you read the part where I mentioned even LIGHT spanking worked?-hardy abusive or violent-just startling)  Im sure glad they didnt wait for me to get it through my thick four year old skull the WHY part of 'electricity, stoves, and streets are dangerous".  A small swat can be a perfect, timely substitue for a long drawn out blue in the face explanation for the dangers of X.

Perhaps i failed in two aspects...in each and every time i was spanked i was hugged, and kissed and told that i was loved, and that sometimes it was necessary to punish me..in the long AND short run for my own good. (according to your own argument, if a child is intelligent enough to understand an alternative method of explanation, they can understand parental love, reasoning and consistency) This i guess would be the critical missing element for ME, that i left out, that helped me understand the how this instructive act was different than abuse. Never ONCE did i feel then or now, that i was abused, or violated, and even back then, i remember understanding my parents intentions. Children are not utterly retarded unable to discern discipline applied in love, and discipline mis-applied in anger.

Sure, You can let your four year old pull that hot grease onto himself or stick a fork into a socket to learn his own lesson so that you dont have to resort to " abuse and violence", but for the rest of us..we're grateful that they didnt wait for the lesson to be learned that way.  
Hope your kids have insurance.

--That said, spanking is NOT for all situations, and the incorrect application of discipline is what you should really be rallying against..and on that point, i couldnt agree more. In fact, if you modified your objection just SLIGHTLY, you and I would be in total agreement. Spanking in anger or inconstency or 'out of the blue' isnt going to serve any purpose whatsoever.... Dont have to spank em for everthing all the time...but sometimes.. and with love, with consistency.

Re-Reading post, you conceded a point i missed, so ill modify mine to say that if there is time to discipline with logic, etc..then spanking isnt nec..I'll agree there. Kids are fairly smart.  I guess Im primarily dealing with issues that are immediate, and perhaps lifesaving, where time is of the essense.

Theres just NO need to patronize people with alternative points of views to yours with garbage like "turning your child into a creature one step from herd beas, then sure, a spanking is an excellent solution"...

It's unecesary and immature and won't help you convince me that youre willing to look at this through an objective filter...even if you Do concede a point or two.

I particularly do not spank my kids, and I'm also a Christian, so I think that debate is irrelevant!

I favor more the taking away of privileges.... You either earn them or lose them !

and the best way to raise a child is through example..... they do as they see... make sure they see you do the right things.... don't expect them to not smoke if you do, don't expect them to not drink if you do... don't expect them not to lie if you do.. etc.

By the time you are 10 spanking no longer hurts anyway, you need to have priveledges taken away (such as movies, or the car for older teens) Spanking a 17 year old is not going to do much other than embarrass them.  Spanking is by far overrated, I remember by a young age it no longer hurting, or just getting it over with so they stop yelling at you.  Generally I have noticed with my cousins and younger sibling, that getting spanked tends to cause a feeling of guilt in the parents, where a taken away priveledge is a much more prudent way of discipline.

I was spanked a few times, cant say it did much damage, it was really when my parents took away my bike/tv/internet/left me in a hole in the basement and lowered lotion down to me in a basket that i really understood.

I think we're mostly talking about spanking when children are younger. Now, don't think I'm getting Pro-Spank-Them-All-The-Time, but I have some questions for the non-spankers. What kind of priveledges can you take away from a 3-4 year old? Also, a few people have said that a child can't fully/if at all understand why they are being spanked for doing something wrong. Now, if this is true, how will any other form of punishment work? At least with spanking (not beating, mind you) there is something bad associated with doing bad things. I can guarantee you, spanking a child for playing around with an electrical socket will teach them a lot quicker than trying to explain to them that it's dangerous and bad. They'll definitely think twice before playing with that socket again. And, be honest, how many of us when we were children EVER paid attention to our parents when they lectured us? We just nodded and agreed with them until they shut up, so we could go back to watching Care Bears.

You seriously think that a two-month old baby is going to understand anything it's mother says to it? No, but mothers always have and always will talk to their babies, even if they don't even know what is being said to them. Why? The easy answer is that if you talk to him or her enough, eventually they will learn the language.

The same goes for discipline. Even if the child doesn't understand on the first attempt why he shouldn't "break mommy's vase", does that mean you should give up all hope, and resort to spanking? No. Continue to explain to the child why he shouldn't do certain things, and at a certain point in their life, they will understand, and maybe they, too, will turn out to be decent human beings.

I'm in high school. My parents never even considered laying a hand on me or my brother. I think that I've already turned out far better than some of the adults I know around here. (I wonder if Rapid was spanked as a kid...  ;)  )

The problem is, a good portion of kids won't be good if there are no real consequences for their actions. A little spanking now and then is NOT abuse. Parents have been doing it for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Seems like people turned out just fine. From what I can see (and this is just my opinion), since spanking has been frowned upon, we've been raising more and more delinquents. I don't know if it's just because kids have a lot more time on their hands (no more working in the fields for their parents), or they're just being fucked up by society. And once again, when I say spanking, I mean spanking, not barbarically beating the shit out of your children for no reason. And there is a big difference, people. Don't try to compare the two.

Uh Oh, Snipe done jumped off the track here...No here is advocating spanking a two-month old, unless of course you keep catching it using your Torrent account to warez Porn.....without a proper seeding ratio.

Ok, again, here, we dont have time for the youngster to learn the language!!!!!!!!
Remember he/she is about to put the FORK into the light socket AGAIN.
Youre gonna make some scary parents.
I will send you lots of bandaids and peroxide to patch up your kids while you are busy letting the four year old make SEVERAL ATTEMPTS <(your words) at getting the jist of our complicated language so they can comprehend your warnings about the stove, light sockets, and busy streets....

And sure, [to quote] {{""Continue to explain to the child why he shouldn't do certain things, and at a certain point in their life, they will understand""}}

Yeah, they'll REALLY get it after they've burnt their hands off on the stove and lost the feeling in their left arm from the fork/socket thing becaue you felt it was important to let them make several attempts to 'understand'...but then its a bit late, is it not???
And when they have NO MORE HANDS,  taking away 'toy priveledges' will be utterly useless...

Cmon people, quit arguing this point just to argue. (those of you who are arguing with me)

 ::bussi::

heh, it's supprisingly easy, we have a count system as well, 1-5, if it gets to 5 and she has not stopped what she is doing, we turn Cbeebies of, (kids tv channel which she loves and has on all day), also, she know's how to use the mac better than the wife, she knows how to turn it on, log into her account, load safari and then navigate round certain sites, this is another thing that we threaten to turn off, she soon shuts up. This probably won't work forever, but as she starts doing other things, you take those things away. It's like adults, I don't like something being taken away from me.

take away this worst case scenario about putting things in plug sockets, the only time my daughter did something like that was putting her hands on the radiator, and they were quite hot, she did stay away from radiators for about a week, she learnt the hard way that time.

also, you learn to have eyes in the back of your heads when your parents, always aware of what they are up to.

and again, without some of you being parents, and i know this sounds crap, but you really have to go through this experience to fully understand it all, i can finally appreciate some of the things my parents used to say to me.

First let me tell you what I believe, then I will debate what you say.
I believe that everytime a parent feels compelled to hit a child, for any reason, that parent has failed.
Now I'll soften this: hitting a kid is not the best solution to the need to discipline a child.

For the purposes of your argument, sure. I'd do whatever it took to immeadiately stop a kid from having any one of those situtations occur. Spanking does not protect a child from any of those situations.

Just because I can't think up a solution doesn't mean there aren't any. Part of what is wrong with spanking is that it's such an easy to administer solution. It's much easier to spank a kid and tell him no than it is to think up intellegent ways of discilpining a child.

First, off, spanking is not a "learning tool". It's a punishment. Get's getting the stick. And as I said, and feel free to debate this[/], the lessons your teach your child when you spank them are the wrong lessons. I don't care if people think differently from me - i expect that; that's healthy - what I do care is about making my point as powerfully as possible. Disagree? Cool. But don't dig into me for speaking forcefully, disagree with what I say. Additionally, I think there is a difference between a spanking and abuse. Perhaps I should make that clearer. I got spanked. Was I abused, no. But it doesn't change the fact that every spanking is a failure ont the part of the parent.

Huh? I am not villifying those that spank. I didn't call parents to spank abusers, either. I said, 1) spanking teachs the wrong lessons, lessons other than the ones people want them too, 2) that every spanking is a failure, 3) that is people want to train their kids the same way they'd raise a dog then fine.

I don't think spanking contains merit. Sorry.
Here's a conservative opinion I do agree with: I want the US to have the world's strongest military. Oh, here's another one: I think people should be allowed to own guns (with proper regulation such as no crimminals and no weapons for minors, etc) It's complete bullshit that I MUST concede conservatives have  a point when I'm disagreeing with them. If they have a rational opinion I can agree with, I will. If not, not. Duh.

I was already distanced. Go ahead and profess that spanking your children is fine for you. I don't think it's fine for mine. What's true is that I can make a pretty damn good argument as to why spanking is a poor parental choice. So far, all I see from you is a look of compliants about what I say.

Tell me again how spanking a kid right before he grabs the live wire is better than grabbing their hand to stop them? If your argument is that spanking is an excellent way of stopping kids in the act from commiting and act, then, that's a pretty bad argument. I don't think that's the one you want to make. I think you mean that spanking AFTER you have stopped a child from doing a bad thing will TEACH them not to do that bad thing. I disagree and contest that all you teach them is 1) I, dad or mom, will hurt you if you do that and 2) violence is an acceptable solution to complex problems.

I agree. But I think that DISCIPLINE is seperate and better than VIOLENCE AS DISCIPLINE. For example, the Army doesn't beat soldiers when they fuck up. They have other ways of instilling discipline, most of which I am unfamilar with, But Violence is not an acceptable why to discilpine a soldier in our country. Why is it acceptable for our children?

Oh, come off it.

Bullshit. Spanking doesn't stop some kid from doing stupid shit, it punishes them for it. Don't whine to me about how it saves lives or stops a kid from burning himself. And it is most certainly not useful where time is off the essence -- this is EXACTLY the wrong time to spank a kid, in the moment, when you're pissed and scared and freaked out that they almost fried themselves. You are not rational. How can they be expected to receive a rational lesson at such a time?

* Theres just NO need to patronize people with alternative points of views to yours with garbage like "turning your child into a creature one step from herd beas, then sure, a spanking is an excellent solution"...
I'm not patrionising you because you disagree with me, I'm patrionising you because you do so poorly. And don't mistake my cutting down your logic tress for cruelty. Aren't you the one advocating painful lessons?

so you would do anything to stop your kid from doing something wrong?, and i would have to disagree with that "spanking does not protect a child from any of those situations", if your child is a persistant child, and you have tried all other means of stopping that child from reaching the plug socket or anything else dangerous, then yes, a tap/smack/slap/spanking whatever you want to call it would be neccessary, We are talking about very extreme conditions here, if this argument was about if a kid was in a supermarket having a tantrum over some sweats (candy) and then a parent spanks their child, then no, i strongly disagree with that. If as i say, this is extreme circumstances, then yes, you do anything to stop that kid from doing it, that does not make you a bad parent.


heh, arn't punishments meant to learn by? hence, you go to jail, you learn not to do that crime again?.

Kids will learn from a tap/smack w/e.  I sure as hell learnt what not to do when i was a kid when my dad hit me. And then you state its a punishment, well thats plainly obvious.

Well Six, I certainly hope you're not a philosphy major...because your ad hominem would earn you a nice fat ZERO.  Up till that reply, i was convinced you were in this for the strength of the debate...But i get it now; you need the attention, so you're flame-baiting....you go for it. I made my case fine without insulting you....however in most of your posts on a variety of subjects its seems to be one of your crutches...again..wingin insults at a debate participant doesnt constitute a logical argument.  Tells me loads about your character...I thought you were actually looking for serious debate...not trying to flush a good topic into the toilet..licking your lips so you could pounce and sneer, and smirk, and get all self righteous...(i was warned about you..just thought they were wrong)

On one hand you concede that spanking is not for YOUR child, and that you dont THINK spanking has any merit....even if demonstrated that it has merit for some, if not for you and yours...But at the outset of this, you brought the debate out to compare and contrast what others do andhow they feel. FACT is, its your OPINION, not fact, and the strength of your emotions lends not ONE bit of weight to your argument.
Your refusal to even consider this chucks you out of contention for being a worthy debate adversary.

Youve convinced yourself somehow that your tastes and bias are the legitimate factors in the moral argument at hand..guess what sugar, it they arent..they are subjective.... In YOUR opinion (not in fact), spanking = violence. Opinion is all it is...we all got one..so you're not special. Despite the fact that i provided several examples that conclusively proved the opposite, (preventing immediate harm,and light spanking-both of which are legitimate)you fail to note it for any worth and This is the error that topples your tower.

And that  proves my point...your posting is a masturbatory exercise. (make a workout tape, ok?)

Again, your THINKING that spankng contains no merit is merely your opinion....for me, that opinion is worthless in the face of my own experience.
(And Im surely glad that you feel that we should have the worlds mightiest army with which to toss around the world's weakest armies.....yay conservatism)<---and wtf did that have to do with the price of eggs in china anyhow???

As far as my complaints about what you say...well, thats only becuase in a strict judement of a subject in debate, youre using faulty logic to establish the correctness and superiority of your OPINION, while discounting the opinion of  others, and once again, to refer to the discipline of philosophy, is totally worthless...You simply cannot discount the experience of OTHERS becuase you disagree with them.
Fah had you pegged after all.
Not even sure why youre arguing such a subjective value...you cant argue subjective values, you can only state them..OK youve stated it..good. Be done.

AS far as what a spanking might accomplish to prevent the grabbing of wires? well, for one grabbing their hand does ZERO to explain cause and effect of electricy..therefore a swat will work as a substitute...yes its punishment....god yes....make them fear the swat so they will not grab a fork and stick it into the socket...Theres no way youre going to explain to a small child WHY forking the socket is bad, therefore they will have NO aversion to doing it..talk till youre blue int the face, or grab their hand - whatever, its not going to create aversion for when youre NOT AROUND TO GRAB THEIR HAND....uh..yeah.. ..You think youre advanced enough to get that one across in DIALOGUE with a three year old? If so, youve never worked with three year olds. They dont understand direct current or alternating current.

Spanking doesn't stop some kid from doing stupid shit, it punishes them for it.(SH)<-----well NO shit. Hope youre not one of those that think kids dont need to be punished for doing stupid shit that can hurt of kill them or others.

Liberals dont think anyone should be pubished for anything...Rapists had a bad upbringing-reeducate them, bad kids are acting out at the fault of their parents, Giving D's and F's in school creates bad esteem, and swatting kids makes them feel bad about themselves, sentencing commercial email spammers to 9 years in prison becuase they annoyed people, while releasing serially violent offenders in under 18 months, sentencing drug offenders to life while pardoning murderers are all LEGITIMATE expamples of the fallacy of that kind of thinking..

Since the school systems and social systems have abolished swatting at home and school (at the fear of litigous attorneys) i have PERSONALLY  witnessed the meltdown of the public school system..I taught and my wife teaches...YES they are empirically linked....dont think so? I dont care what you think anymore. It is my EXPERIENCE..not my opinion at this point.

Again, all subject to opinion, which is what i thought you were asking about, when you started this retarded post. I fully realize now i was baited into a one sided debate, and that all ive done is give you a forum so you can read your own opinion....For a moment, it seemed as though you were looking to compare approaches..not condemn those that didnt meet your glorified standards..

I'm not patrionising you because you disagree with me, I'm patrionising you because you do so poorly. And don't mistake my cutting down your logic tress for cruelty.<<------No, Sixhits, Youre patronising me MAINLY becuase ive dared take the debate up to disagree with you, and pointed out the logical fallacy of your weak insulting arguments (not your opinion mind you, just your argument to support them in contrast to MINE)...which in itself shows a lack of judgement on my part.

Your step by step logic fails horribly, and would fail examination of any professional bored enough to read your opinion.  There is no legitimate logical premise that stands on its own just becuase "Its what you believe so there, eveyone else is full of shit"...thats just masturbatiion...jack away brother...im out.

And to close, two things...more of your objective wisdom...how old are you by the way?
Your juvenile insultory approach to this mature subject all sounds so very young and lacking in actual experience with children, if youre NOT a young guy you come across as though you are..

"Don't whine to me about how it saves lives or stops a kid from burning himself. And it is most certainly not useful where time is off the essence.(SH) <---- More ad hominem-good for you susan...Great point you make there...very mature. +8098098405830458 points for you!

Presenting a disagreement to your holy opinion won't constitute whining in any honest examination of it...ive been very fair to your argument and conceded where nec (to avoid the impending flame)..but attacking me or insulting me or patronizing me at ANY point in this discussion, means you had no interest in an adult discussion in the first place.

And lastly, youre not bright enough to be cruel to me, or disprove the strength of my opinion and life experience...You're just dancing circles, avoiding a logical discussion of diverse approaches..which is where i, and probably anyone who contributed here  mistakenly thought you were headed with your post..

Bait someone else from now on.

lmao Sheix...

I'm going to reward your hilarious post with me sitting on my hands this time. Too funny. You earned it.

I just want to mention one thing: The analogy for with the 2 month old baby... I wasn't implying spanking the two month old, I was merely using it as an age where a child doesn't understand what its mother is saying to it.

Again, hilarious post. I enjoyed it thoroughly, and you earned yourself a "Get out of Snipe's pwnage rebuttle free" card.

I agree with Mellow, kids need rules and boundries, and it's possible that by not providing these boundries, we are setting the stage for generations of dilenquents. This is an issue of pure opinion. I'll just say that I was spanked by my father. He did it seldom, but he did it, and I'm fine. My parents raised me to understand responsiblity and the consequences of my actions. I graduated high school, I'm in college and I'm doing fine. Perhaps I'm an aberation, but I suspect there are millions out there like me. The problem, like always, are the small group of people who take it to the extreme, and then the media blows it out of proportion.

Thanks for the serious reply.

First off, this isn't what I believe:

"Liberals dont think anyone should be pubished for anything...Rapists had a bad upbringing-reeducate them, bad kids are acting out at the fault of their parents, Giving D's and F's in school creates bad esteem, and swatting kids makes them feel bad about themselves, sentencing commercial email spammers to 9 years in prison becuase they annoyed people, while releasing serially violent offenders in under 18 months, sentencing drug offenders to life while pardoning murderers are all LEGITIMATE expamples of the fallacy of that kind of thinking."

And again, you're attacking me, not my opinions. So sod off with your whining about ad hominems. I give what I get.

For your taste, I dress my words in to much snark. Let me reduce it for you.

Your experience is valid, as is your wife's. I'm not qustioning your experience, just your final opinion grounded in those experiences. I haven't taught school, so I don't know what you've been through. I presume what you cite is completely true. I can tell you I have dated girls who taught school here in LA, and it's often a very trying experience for them. But your experience, which I'll sum up as having experienced the collapse of our country's education system, is, in my opinion, NOT CAUSED BY a lack of spanking.

So, I don't think your experience is valid to this particular issue.

By the way, I'm 24.

But I'd agree with you that what you've experienced as a teacher has in part been caused by a lack of discipline in kids. I would add, that much of this lack of discipline can be laid at the feet of parents who don't or won't discipline their children. I ground this in the opinion that parents should teach their children things like right and wrong, and how to behave, not the state. To sum this up: morality comes from home, lawfulness from the state.

Where we disagree so vehemontly is on what is proper discipline at home. You argue that spanking is an acceptable form of punishment and a proper disciplining tool. I argue that spanking is an unacceptable form of punishment, for two reasons: it fails to teach the proper lesson, and it teachs the wrong lesson. Additionally, I find it distasteful. But that's not what I'm grounding my argument in, my distaste.

I don't think your argument, that, for example, spanking to prevent immediate harm and light spanking-are correct. They are legitmate arguments, but I think I can argue they are incorrect. First off, how can you spank to PREVENT immeadiate harm? Second, what's a light spanking? I'll presume you mean a swat on the ass. Here's why that is wrong: it is both ineffective (because the PAIN of the spanking is it's most potent "tool") and teaches the wrong lesson (that violence is an acceptable tool). You don't think a slap on the bum is violence, I do. We can't reconcile this.

Indeed, I hold violence as a tool of education be morally wrong. This is a part of my ideology, or moral code.

It's not just that I think spanking contains no merit - I feel I can make a fair argument as to why it has no merit, and why what you cite as meritous isn't. It boils down to the two things (I'm in for twos): spanking fails to teach the right lesson, but also teachs the wrong one. Your argument, as I read it, is that this doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether or not a kid stops playing in the street because he knows its wrong and dangerous or becuase he's afraid of beind hit by his parents. I think this is a horrible opinion, I really do. YOU aren't horrible, this opinion is. I want my kid to learn the right lesson, the one that says don't do that, and, here's why.

Again, I assert that spanking only teachs a child to avoid the pain, not the problem they were doing, and, that spanking teaches a child that violence is acceptable.

In my opinion, being a parent is about teaching your children the right lessons. If you are willing to substitute an easy solution like spanking in order to get the result you want, but willing to cut corners on teaching the right lesson, then I disagree with that.

Again, here's my problem with spanking: it doesn't teach them why what they did was wrong, only that they will be hurt if they do it. Also, it teaches them that violence is acceptable.

Other people disagree. A remarkable number of Christian groups feel that spanking a child is an act of love, because you are trying to teach them an important lesson. Additionally, there is a strong debate among pediatritions and medical professionals as to the merits of spanking. Both sides can cite evidence to support them. Being a layman with the data, I side with those that don't condone violence as a teach tool.

Let me be clear. Spanking isn't abuse and I don't think a swat on the ass is abuse. I just think it's wrong. I don't think spanking is wrong because spanking a kid is akin to beating them. I think it's wrong for the two reasons I cited above - it fails to do it's primary job of teaching the kid.

You can spank your kids and, while it makes me cringe, that's your huckleberry.  

And you know what Liberals really believe in?

Doing what's morally right. I think conservatives feel the same way about themselves, which I respect. I bonk heads with them about what is moral, or right.

The silly examples you cite are characterures of liberal points of view, and even if true, are extreme and not my values. If you believe they are, I can see why you get so upset with me. I must be such and immature bullshit spinner, especially since I believe all these bullshit things. I don't really believe you believe this, but you might.

As for this:
"faulty logic to establish the correctness and superiority of your OPINION"
I would argue the same about you. Stating that your experience as a teacher gives you the correct insight into the proper use of spanking, coupled with your experience being spanked, gives your opinion weight, but it doesn't make it right. Experience does not equal correctness. You can flip this around in my face pretty easily. But I will stand by my contention, which you haven't refuted, that spanking fails to teach the right lesson, but manages to teach the wrong one. Disprove this and I will say you're right. Please, prove me wrong. I'd rather be shown the right thing that left in ignorance. But nothing you've said has convinced me I'm wrong.

Instead, I get ad hominem attacks. You throw rocks, I throw rocks. I don't mind it, too much.

But to be honest, I'd HATE to drive a debate away since the fire got too thick, because I value the debate, even if it doesn't seem like that. Sorry to have hurt your feelings.

"AS far as what a spanking might accomplish to prevent the grabbing of wires? well, for one grabbing their hand does ZERO to explain cause and effect of electricy..therefore a swat will work as a substitute...yes its punishment....god yes....make them fear the swat so they will not grab a fork and stick it into the socket...Theres no way youre going to explain to a small child WHY forking the socket is bad, therefore they will have NO aversion to doing it..talk till youre blue int the face, or grab their hand - whatever, its not going to create aversion for when youre NOT AROUND TO GRAB THEIR HAND....uh..yeah.. ..You think youre advanced enough to get that one across in DIALOGUE with a three year old? If so, youve never worked with three year olds. They dont understand direct current or alternating current."

I think everyone needs to read this paragraph a few more times. It was hidden in one of Sheixhundt's long posts, and it sums up what I've been trying to say.

Lol snipe...

I understood your comment as you meant it, don't worry. (didnt mean to sound as if i was trying to pop you for that one)  it just made me think of spanking a two month-old (which is morbidly hilarious)..and gave a GREAT segue to the warexed porn thing... ;D

And six, ty for your serious response as well..
I can work with the tone of that post just fine.

I'll clear one minor point up, and say that in a final examination, our disagreement is a healthy one on the major point, we'll have to leave it at that...diffference in views...fair enough...
.
I'll even close the gap further and concede that spanking isnt an ideal solution, but doesnt necesarily sink to the level of 'wrong', if and only if, you concede that while not ideal, or your preference, a spanking can and often DOES create the intended result without the negative psychological harm in all cases, qualifying as an appropriate (and therefore NOT wrong) response for those who dont feel as you do...

However, those 'silly little examples' you say i cite, ARE silly, but what makes them silly, is not my choosing to refer to them, but that that particular liberal rationale is the driving force behind every single one of those absurd examples.....Fair enough and accepted by me then, that they dont describe your beliefs...I'll take that.

I wont mind debating any issue you bring up..but lets for the safe of efficiency not refer to any response as whiny, unless it's blatantly so, (youre not threatening enough to make me whine) and dont attempt to patronize me or other readers for cute points. I wasnt whining, i was LAMENTING the fact that you felt that your argument should be sprinkled with sarcasm.

The goal is to make me recognize the blazing superiority of your argument, and crushing me with the devastating weight of same said argument, WITHOUT ever actually borrowing from the playground whoop-chuck playbook....
Thats where the real fun is.

I'm a big boy, and trust me bro I can hang with you.
I will also give as good as i can get, so if you crave serious in depth discussion like i do...make sure you keep it above the belt..or I'll leave you alone to debate yourself.


I'll go as deep as the rabbit hole goes..>AS LONG AS...theres a point.  8)

oh yeah almost forgot...thanks to Everyone for the meaningful contributions, good stuff from everyone. Gives me hope that thoughtfulness isnt necesarily dead and that healthy debate can still be had.
Thats a big deal.

ooo spanking a christian duty? Kinky. Where are all the beautiful christian girls? I've been naughty.

Spanking? Well my whole approach is rather draconian. The way I was raised was how my father was raised and his father (I think you are starting to get the picture) and so on. The boys in our family have always been dealt with harshly. Hell when I was bad I was sent to sleep in some unsheltered shack that we had and without dinner. This could be horrible, especialy when it got into the later months in St. Petersburg. However, that punishment was for the most horrible stuff I did (like when I ran away to Pskov).

This stuff seams real harsh, especially from a modern western prespective. The reason for it is that was how Russian nobility treated their boys, so it stuck with my family. The philosiphy behind it was that it taught the boys (who would eventually assume higher leadership in the government) the hardships of the peasentry and toughen them up for the job of ruling an empire. Obviously the tsar is gone, but I do not know of one great political leader that did not have a tough set of parents.

BTW, taking away of privlages is a sucky way of doing things (atleast with me it is). If I got my TV privlages taken away, I would go to my friend's place. Hell, if I was grounded I would just sneak out when my parents were at work. So yeah, it depends on the kid. i was a stubborn and probablly should have gotten my ass kicked. I dont know what CPS woulda thought of my treatment, but fuck them.

meidieval times....To me, thats abuse.

Conceded. I choose to listen to the "in all cases" caveat, rather than the "often" rhetoric.

I want to get all snarky again off that, but won't. It's a falsely premised argument. First off, those points of view are no more "liberal" that hanging a pro-choice judge from the nearest tree is "conservative." You cite extreme points of view and call them liberal. They are not liberal, they are extreme.

Going off on a related tangent, one of the things I lament is the death of true conservativism. Where the hell are the real-politic, small-government, personal property conservatives? The guys running things right now are so far from that, ideologically.

I reserve the right to call a spade a spade and a whine a whine. Feel free to defend against my judgement. Also, sarcasm is a useful tool for hightlighting contrasts by bludgeoning someone I disagree with. That it is humorous is a plus. If you don't like my use of sarcasm, you know, it's a matter of taste. If you find it offensive, I'm sorry. I don't find other people's use of sarcasm offensive vis a vie me.  I don't like that you use ALL CAPS TO HIGHTLIGHT A POINT. Don't see me bitching about it (ironicallyish).

I do enjoy a good play-ground whoop-chuck fest. I love snark. I love to read it and I love to write it. I find it ironic you don't.

Again, you are doing what you say you don't like me doing: holding the club of your immense hanging-power over my head, but simultaneously undercuting the worth of anything I say by threating to cut line and leave if you don't like how I say it. Which is fine. But I find such things to be hypercritical, and thus, worthy of my distainful sarcasm.

I'm not interested in scoring points on the merit of a debate by diving into snark-infected waters. I'm interested in pounding the other guy into the ground. That's what biting rhetoric is for. You're right that it doesn't help win an argument on the merits of the argument. it's not supposed to. It's supposed to sting. Much like a slap on the ass.

btw, Cos: that fucking musta sucked.

Anyway, I find myself tumbling back towards the very things I'm now trying to avoid, which is a shame, I guess.

Hey i just wanna say, i have three kids ... and.... o crap i left the boy hanging up in the closet, i gotta go let him down and i guess the duct tape is cutting off the circulation on my daughters legs so i'll have to reply later           *wink*

Marco