*DAMN R6 Forum

Oh well. No one ever went wrong overestimating the stupidity of the vatican.

They just elected a guy who was a member of the Hitler Youth in his day. Way to go.

Well I would yell out how much I agree, however I don't like being banned from DAMN.

Damn him for the mistakes made in his youth... what about all the good he has done in the last 50 years?

Plus, I read somewhere that he was "forced" to serve... it wasn't voluntary! and that he avoided following orders that went against his belief....

About every kid in Germany before and during the war was a hitler youth....dosn't say too much about him. And wether or not tiro is right about him avoiding orders against his belief, as it would matter much. One of the cornerstones of the christian belief is to be able to forgive..

Amazing.. new pope used to be in charge of what was formally known as the Inquisition... great move

What about the millions of Africans that are dying of AIDS, while the Vatican states that the use of condoms is a sin ?
To be honest I was hoping for a African or a South American pope that would help turn the tide.
Ratzinger has been the voice of the late John Paul II for the last 10 years, so I expect that the same conservative views will be comming from the Vatican.

At least our German neighbours will be happy.

Bennedict will be far more conservative than John Paul II, it seems. But hey, he's 78, he can't stay Pope for THAT long. ;) Not that I'm wishing death upon a religious figure, but I'm just saying...

i could care less, the pope and religion in general has no effect on my life whatsoever.

It might have more effect on your life, indirectly, than you might think. He probably would have been killed if he wasn't a hitler youth, besides, hes just a transitional pope.

Sixhits, for future posting about anti-conservatism, try not to start a flame about somebody's background that you don't know that person. Besides, it seems to be that this Pope will continue where John Paul II left off.

BLitz 8)

Erm, yeah, a 1938 law required German men to join the Hitler Youth.  As in, if he didn't join he would not be alive.  I wouldn't really hold that against him, eh?  His family was anti-nazi, and he risked being shot/hung when he deserted the German army in 1945.

Hey Blitz,
just thought i'd enlighten you with a short clip from the new york post ...concerning Papa Ratzinger.
Yes, he was an ex-nazi, yes he participated. Yes its a fact..
Later desertion, yes, but the claim was and is still vaild that he was an ex-nazi.

------NEW YORK POST.....http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/42823.htm
(and found hundreds of other references)

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger — a favorite to become the next pontiff — joined the Nazi children's corps in 1941 as a 14-year-old and was later an anti-aircraft gunner.

At one point, he guarded a factory where slaves from a concentration camp were forced to work. He was later shipped to Hungary, where he reportedly saw Jews persecuted.----

-------------------

Whether hes a good person or not is irrelevant to me, because the public face of any of these figures is likely not to match their tru natures...I've known plenty of miscelaneous (sp?) religious figures who were foul, resentful, evil humans, and I'm suspicious of anyone who campaigned as hard as he did to become the next pope....The canary-eating smile on his face today told me volumes.

I can both understand why these figures are necessarily conservative, but taking stands on an issue such as  coondoms being 'against god's will' when aids is going to gut africa from the inside while protecting the pedophilic priests is an unnacceptable hypocrisy to me. To some, the cash settlements that Micheal Jackson has made with his accusers indicates a pattern, if not guilt, and the payouts from the Catholic church indicate a similar pattern, and equal or surpass the GDP of many third world countries.  I sincerely hope that he is a good leader, and good person, and I hope he allows the church to take responsibilty for its shortcomings. Hope is cheap.

So, in the future, (to borrow your words) go ahead and check YOUR information before you call someone out on the validity of theirs. Pointing out facts ? a flame.

I would say, let the people that know him better be his judge.
If John Paul II had him as his right hand for many years, that must mean something. After all, the Polish people suffered much from the NAZI, and if Wojtyl trusted him, then there must be something about him that has made him worthy of becoming Benedict.

Agreed.

I heard the Pope gets first dibs on young virgin boys.

Hmm. I love it when people get all riled up to defend ex-nazis running one of the world's most anti-semitic institutions, historically.

Consider it from another point of view: The Catholic Church just put in power a man who intervened in the 2004 US election campaign ordering bishops to deny communion to abortion rights supporters including presidential candidate John Kerry. He wants to affect your life by altering the course of our politics.

You don't care? 

His past is relevant as well. What message does putting an ex-nazi in power say to the world?

Finally, remember that it was Ratzinger who lead the Vatican cover up of sexual abuse within the Church, especially here in the USA.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020607141945/http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_Vatican_coverup_020426.html

Don't tell me he has no affect on your life. That his past doesn't matter. That you don't care.

If you don't care then you are irrelevent.

And Blitz, clearly I know a shit load about this guy's background. Rocks and glass houses don't mix well for you.

<<<
"The accusers say Vatican-based Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican office to safeguard the faith and the morals of the church, quietly made the lawsuit go away and shelved it. There was no investigation and the accusers weren't asked a single question or asked for a statement.

He was appointed by the pope to investigate the entire sex abuse scandal in the church in recent days. But when approached by ABCNEWS in Rome last week with questions of allegations against Maciel, Ratzinger became visibly upset and actually slapped this reporter's hand.

"Come to me when the moment is given," Ratzinger told ABCNEWS, "not yet."
>>>

Why did John Paul trust him? Because he made the Vatican's problems dissappear.

Our Pope Nazi:

(http://us.news3.yimg.com/beta.news.yahoo.com/util/anysize/345,http%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fafp%2F20050419%2Fcapt.sge.iiq63.190405221956.photo00.photo.default-266x380.jpg?v=1)

Hey, I was just arguing out of the fact that he was in the hitler youth...at the age of 14 he got forced in...and at the age of 17 he deserted......as for the rest, i've never really bothered about catholisism, so I haven't been reading up on him. I am starting to understand how he is, so yeah, the cardinals were stupid. However, I don't think his years in the hitler youth should matter.

kudos sixhits. i am happy to be irrelevant and completely indifferent when it comes to subjects of this matter. his influence in politics? there's an entire world with a time and place where i can do whatever the hell i want if i felt like doing it.

(this does not include in stealing or violence)

Completely irrelevent, but when I saw him walk out for the first time, he looked like the most evil bastard I've ever seen in my life, movies included. Looks like the Emperor from Star Wars or something. Particularly his eyes and mouth.

Lol, so true mellow.

Um excuse me but don't you live in America?  How on earch can you say religion in general has no effect on your life!!!

Catholicism is one religion, there are many.

The pope is just a figurehead, he doesn't change how America operates and he probably won't do anything but continue whatever the previous Popes have been doing and what the Catholics have believed in for thousands of years.

Are you talking about how religion directly affects the decisions I make, or its induced effects on my life caused by religion's connection with the country's people of power?

(Err, for clarity, you weren't quoting me, I was just wondering what you meant)

dude he was forced into it man, either join them and run later or be shot on the spot, or assraped by his fawtha

i'll try and put it like this; i see and hear religion all the time, but it makes no difference in my life...so until there is a pope tax, i am unaffected. sure, religious morals have brought about many laws in this country (most of which are naive), but i disregard them anyway. they can make all the laws and rules they like, but if i think it's only to serve a specific group of people, i will keep doing what i want. i pay bills, drive on the right side of the road, and i don't hurt anyone.

Christ on his cross.

It makes no difference in your life? You an American? Religion is currently the dominant force in American poltics and society. You may think, sitting where you are right now, that religion is some vague concept that makes wing nuts rap moralistic and motivates wackos to fly airplanes into buildings, but really, religion and the abuse of it's influence is an shotgun aimed at your head.

You, bronto. Me. Anyone who is willing to disagree with them, or even ignore them.

You see, strict interpretation - fundamentalism or evanglegicalism - of a religious text commands a lot of people these days. They don't care if you pay or taxes and mind your own business. They want to control you, order you to conform to their world view, and don't care a lick for your Constitutional rights. They don't care about capitalism. They don't care about the country. They care about the Kingdom of Heaven.

Fuck you, they think, you hate religion. You hate them. You're a baby killer because you're not anit-abortion. You're anti-Christ because you don't interpret the Bible the way they do. You're an enemy to be overrun because you won't get out of their way.

You disregard laws? You, bucko, are number two on their list right below gay people. You smoke weed? Even think about fucking a girl before marriage? You used a condom? You voted Democrat once? Bullet in the brain for you.

So when a nazi becomes Pope I look at it as the continuance of an age old fundamentalist tradition. The hatred of the Other. The denial of human rights to those who are different and, thus, somehow dangerous.

I see a nazi bearing a cross and I think, "what's new here?"

And I know the one true lesson of history: it repeats itself.

A nazi of the Cloth. A facist for a President. And my fellow citizen's willfull ignorance - a lack of concern for their own rights. Remember, the price of freedom is eternal vigiliance. You just caved on the vigiliance part.

Do you still deserve your freedom? They don't think so.

I think the african cardinal looked like the best choice.

I just wrote a great long post, then read through sixhits one again, and then deleted mine becuase it just says the same thing but not half as well.

- cobra to answer your question: I was astonished to hear american citizens say that Religion has no affect on your life - Countries like Iran excluded America is viewed as probably the most Religiously led country in the world, just look at the presidential elections or the recent "crusade against evil".

sixhits summed it um most succinctly with Religion is currently the dominant force in American poltics and society.

ps. Not choosing a south american Pope was i think a very very bad idea.

Then unknowingly, you're living a good Christian life, more so than many that do go to church every Sunday and then come out like little devils doing all sort of evil!   - You see, Jesus will notice your actions, not your words !


On the other hand, for those that don't know how the POPE affects your every day life, even in America, here's an article for you from the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/21/international/worldspecial2/21church.html?th&emc=th&oref=login

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What is this Pope going to do different that's going to change the way American's live?

People will get upset if he does anything radically different so chances are he will just continue things the way they have always been.

I read the article that TiroFino just posted and I stand somewhat corrected.  But again, Catholicism is one religion and there are many.  It may rule politics but not my day-to-day life.

Its perhaps as much what he isn't going to do as much as what he might do.

sixhits, while all that may be true, i still gotta say when i look at the things in my life, tv and the internet is pretty much the only time i hear about religion, besides the occasional church bells, which i think are quite nice. i understand that at any given moment a bomb could be dropped or some radical christian terrorist could blow up an abortion clinic that i am in (i don't know why i'm in this abortion clinic), but for the time being, religion has done nothing to me except reinforce my agnostic position. we both know about what goes on in this world (you know more about this then i do though), i think we both look at life differently, that's all.

with all that said, even when i don't obey rediculous one sided laws, i still say it's important to vote wisely because america is steadily becoming more and more facsist, religion does influence politics in america (almost as much as money), and people are dying because of it. take iraq for example...bush publicly stated that "god told me to strike iraq". if that's not a holy war, i don't know what is...even if he was just desperately trying to say something to take the heat off of WMDs, you can't say that without being held to it. i don't know why people don't talk about that, i remember seeing it a while ago and thinking it was gonna blow up.

with all their political tools, christian radicals are still a minority. they can start wars and blow up abortion clinics, but in this country they absolutely will not find a loophole to take away our basic freedoms or impose their religion on us in an unescapable way...it's just not gonna happen, there's too much good in this country, no matter how bad it gets, to allow this. as Americans, we've had more freedom taken away from us by big business than by religion.

I'm gladdened by reading your remarks. But I think you need to reconsider one things I said: "The price of freedom is eternal vigiliance."

It is not enough to be a good citizen privately because there are people out there who have an honest and impassioned desire to take from you the rights you thought were sacrosanc. There is a strong movement on the right that has co-opted the Republican party and forced it to become more and more religiously extreme. Look at what happened over Terri Schiavo. Congrees passed a new law in order to control one citizen's private life. Luckily for all of us the courts, even Repulican appointed judges, didn't cave to religious politics.

But have a look here:
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LH05D02

I'll give you the juice:
Senate Majority Leader Republican Bill First is leading the charge to end the "fillibuster". What's that? It's the way by which the minority party can have influence in the confirmation process of nominees for courts, ambastadorships, and so on. It's one of the key parts of "checks and balances." The Right, a party that used the fillibuster vemontly during the Clinton years, wants it to go away. Why?

"We must stop this unprecedented filibuster of people of faith."

They are abusing the trappings of reiligion in order to alter our government. Perminantly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/15/politics/15judges.html?hp&ex=1113624000&en=0b42a55582cd9ab5&ei=5094&partner=homepage

"As the Senate heads toward a showdown over the rules governing judicial confirmations, Senator Bill Frist, the majority leader, has agreed to join a handful of prominent Christian conservatives in a telecast portraying Democrats as "against people of faith" for blocking President Bush's nominees."

There is a dark dance going on in the halls of Congress... opposition to the Party in Power is deemed heretical. People believe this shit. That's why you must care. Because the bad guys care a shitload.

They can and did try to control Terri's life and they will attempt to control all of ours.

For a laugh:

(http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20050421/cartoon20050421.gif)

So we have come to the Pope being a nazi to religion being the influence of politics. Many of you people worry me about your anti-religious sentiments. It is this cynical attitude toward beleiving in something that drives me away from the left (then again I run the hell away from the right when I hear any of those so called human beings talk).

Back on to subject, the new Pope is in my opinion a good choice. He may be what us Orthodox christians want in order to reunite the churches of the East and West. However, many of you people do not know what it is like to live in a dictatorial regime and thus blast Benedict for some of his choices. I have lived in one (although Gorby's USSR dosent really compare to Nazi Germany) and I can tell you that you do what they tell you or you die. Now I had a choice to join Kosmosol (Young Communists) and Gorby probablly would not have killed me if I didnt, but ust because Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth does not a nazi make. My grandmother hails from Pomerania and she was forced to join the Hitler Youth and she was drafted into the German Army as an anti-aircraft gunner during the last days of the war. When a facist bloodlust regime such as Germany drafts you, you go to service, there is no Canada to run to.

As for the Catholic church being anti-semetic, what a load of bullshit. Everyone is anti-semetic if they do not agree with the jews, and by the Israeli (not Jews) government's recent attitude towards christians, I could classify them as anti-Christian, anti-Muslim, and anti-gentile. That is much better than the Vatican's record of opening up relations with israel and Pope John Paul issuing apologies to the Jewish community on behalf of the Catholic's church inability to stop the nazi regime with words. Catholic texts are not anti-semetic, they just dont recognize the Jews as the "Chosen Ones" neither did John Paul and nor should Ratzinger. If Ratzinger is a nazi, then you are a godless leftist reactionary.

Now do not get me wrong, I am not entirely cushy with this pope, afterall his role in the sex abuse scandal is worrying. He should fix the problem and not hide it.

 

Sixhits, knowing you, you started this thread to spread false items. If you were in Nazi Germany, and you were a boy, would you join the Hitler Youth and live or would you say, "Fuck you!" and get shot?  Go read the book The Moon is Down by John Steinbeck, and learn that being a soldier just taking orders. Just because he joined doesn't mean he's a Nazi, it just means he did something patriotic. Knowing you, being patriotic is curing Conservatives and praising Liberals for God who knows what.

Also, about this crap that religion in politics. First, if religion was in politics, we'd be run by the Pope himself, not elected officials. Another thing, there is a seperation of church and state. Even though America was founded under Christian ideals, it doesn't mean we have to take them.  Seconds, how is the world repeating history? There hasn't been a war that has taken over Europe for years!

About religion in everyday life. First off, I am a Christian, but if you ask me, the bible it to teach morals and bring mankind together, not destroy it. So who cares if someone joined the Nazi party? At the time it was a huge patriotic thing.  Sort of like during WW2 in America. It was very patriotic to join the military.

Now Sixhits, use some common sense before trying to "out smart" me. I know I am not of age to vote, but I know shit.  Who cares if Ratzinger was covering up a problem.  If you watched the news that announced him being the new Pope, didn't you see their happy faces? He was favored by John Paul II because they both had the same views of the world.  Now let's have htis topic die.

Blitz 8)

i'm not going to get into the hilarity of the rest of your post, i think i'll just highlight this sentence and leave it to wallow in idiocy for everyone to see. i was going to explain why you are so completely and utterly wrong, but then i decided to give you the benefit of the doubt.....i mean, if you were trying to say he didn't have a choice, you are still wrong (everyone always has a choice, regardless of consequence, if he were truly a righteous man he would have chosen a righteous path, not cowardice), but everyone can understand the choice he made. if this wasn't a typo though, it would certainly explain why the USA is in such a state...

Your ignorance knows no bounds.

Again, I am amazed to read people defending an ex-nazi. Honestly. Listen to yourselves squirm trying to explain away his dark past. Just for the historical record: nazi Germany had a resistance movement. Any of you bother to study Germany, and I mean, get into the nitty gritty, socio-political wold that was Nazi Germany? I did. I know 1) people had a choice, 2) not everyone was a nazi party member even by the end of the war, 3) there was a strong anti-nazi resistance moment within Germany itself, mostly run by young men and boys. The contemporaries of our current pope.

Our current pope has damned homosexuality as a choice becaues God has given Man free will. You make a choice to be gay. Ok. If that's true, we can apply the same now-infalable logic to the pope's past. He had a choice. HE CHOOSE EVIL.

Additionally, Cossack:

I hope you hell your right that this Pope ends up being a good choice. And I'm not anti-religious: I am anti-fundamentalist. Good people of faith don't throw it in your face; they don't try to disabuse you of your own faith or lack there off; they don't use religion like a hammer dominate nations.

I am not against the kindly old woman who prays every night. I'm against the public figures who call themeselve men and women of God in order to control the faithful and gain political power.

As for the Catholic Church being anti-semitic. It undeniably WAS powerfully anti-semitic (sic, the Inquisition) but more recentily (and we're back on track with nazis) they assisted Hitler in Germany proper and the occupied territories. Please, don't make me go dig up the reams of evidence that discusses this. I can. It will be vast.

Regards.

Damn it Bronto you beat me to it.

Blitz this is beyond hilarious, its a nasty mix of sheer stupidity, arrogance and ignorance.

Everyones entitled to their opinion etc etc, but at least use your brain before posting on a debate like this, rather than make yourself look quite so ignorant or stupid.

Common sense? I don't think you'd recognize common sense if it walked up and bitch slapped you.


• Following orders is NOT an excuse.
• You don't have to be run by the pope to be living in a society dominated by religion
• Happy faces? did you also learn about the very very unhappy faces - regarding his ultra conservative   view on women?
• I still can't quite belive you actually wrote this shit: "Just because he joined doesn't mean he's a Nazi, it just means he did something patriotic"

edit, damnit sixhits again ;)

Why are we arguing anyway?

He's the Pope and there's nothing we can do about it.

We can't change the way he thinks nor can we change his past.

Obviously all the other Cardinals that voted for him thought he would be the right guy so who are we to tell them that they are wrong.

One final point:
In the Nuremburg Trials after the war Nazis were put on trial for the various shit they did. A common defense was, "I just followed orders." Such an excuse was not enough to spare men the gallows.

Following orders was the excuse of fascists when faced with the monstrosity their actions had produced.



In any event, this dicussion is about two things for me: 1) the rank hypocracy of people who appologize for the actions, past or present, of religious bigots, crimminals, and yeah, nazis. 2) that case in point is the new nazi pope.

A postscript to all this is that what we think, feel, say, and do in response to the election of a nazi as pope reflects on our character. As a nation, Americans have been mixed, thank goodness. But the fact that so many here and in the greater nation just don't care makes me fear for our democracy. If you don't care, then someone who does will determine shit for you.

hahahaha, this convo is beyond hilarious.  He was elected pope, not grandmaster of the universe ku klux klan leader and superior of the free world.  I will not sit here and believe your chants of the sky is falling and evil has been thwart upon us.

You are vilifying a guy who did something when he was 14.  Who fucking knows what he was thinking back then and who really knows if he knew they were killing jews when he joined.  But obiously sixhits and carmen san diego do.  Your opinion and bias now is ridiculous.  This is like saying someone who joined the boyscouts when they were 14, who happen to not like gays, must of joined to hate gays.  In addition, since he was a member some 60 odd years ago, he must still hate gays.  Shit, when I was 14 I thought drugs were fun, but now that I am older, realize it really wasn't.  I must still like drugs since I cannot change?

Sure "Nazi" is still a powerful and hateful term.  But you cannot persecute someone who was young and naive, and obviously has been apart of something thats overall goal is good for the largest part of his life.

Besides this, what the hell are you crying about the election of a pope correlating with the decline of democracy and the world in general.  This was no result of a popular election of a majority of the world.  Some 100 odd guys belonging to a large, but not a majority part of the world elected him.  He is not even the view of most of america.  Not only that, america is run by protestants.  If I remember correctly, you wanted kerry to be our president?  So you supported the follower of a religion who supports nazism?  WTF were you thinking.  You inadvertant nazi supporter you.  You should of researched your decision more clearly before america almost had direct ties to the nazi party.  Where would we be then?

hahhaha, you see how reading into shit were you scream the sky is falling makes no goddamn sense.  If you want to preach crazy, then really go preach it to those who follow the facts the way you state them.  Only the truly rational just look at how you put them and laugh laugh laugh.

Seeing as how the Vatican was against Hitler and the Pope criticized what the facists were doing (while being surrounded by Mussolini) I dont see how the catholic CHURCH (different than people of catholic faith acting with the government) helped them go against the jews in the occupied countries. Many catholic convents, monastaries, etc even took pains to hide Jews. The Catholic church did as much as it could considering they did not have a single rifle to go up against the German regime who understood nothing but force of arms.

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/12/07/Worldandnation/Journal_defends_pope_.shtml

You also say that anyone who joined the Hitler Youth because they were forced to is a nazi.Ratzinger and my grandmother were both avid catholics who were forced to go into the Hitler Youth. You my friend are calling my dear Catholic Pomeranian grandmother a nazi, and now I start to take this beyond a political conversation and start to take it personally. Maybe I shouldnt but I do.

 Joining the Hitler Youth because you were forced to does not even comapre to the crimes of the concentration camp runners.

Yes there were resistance groups in Germany, you know what my Hitler Youth grandmother did? She went to a supposed [sarcasm]nazi sympathetic [/sarcasm] catholic church ran by [sarcasm]"Hitler's Pope" [/sarcasm].

True the catholic church probablly could have done more, I will give you that. It is hard though when you are surrounded by a facist Italy saturated with German soldiers. They did resist, and they did help the Jews, but in more subtle ways.

First of all, Hitler Youth.

Second of all, he said gay people bring violence on themselves.

Third of all, he's a pedophile enabler.


And you guys are nit-picky about what I say about this guy?

Cos, I doubt your mother was a hardcore nazi. But she joined and she must bear that albatross. It sucks. But there were thousands of Germans and millions of other people who stood up, fought, and often died to bring down the nazis. <cringes in fear of cos's response> if it's any consolation, I bet she really, truly regrets it.


And Faq, laugh. I think you're pretty silly yourself. I'm pointing out what's going on and how it has already affected us Americans and how ignorance and lack of care for world events is the the idiom of so many of my fellows. To sum, again, if someone doesn't care, someone else is gonna care for them, and thus decide things for them. If that's the way you like your world then keep on laughing. But don't tear into me with your appologist bullshit. He was 14. Cool. I get it. He still fucked up and choose to side with evil. Was he compelled by outside forces? Sure was. Has he attempted to make amends? Absolutely. But he is still all three of the things I put at the top of this post - none of them are morally good.

If you enjoy being a snarky back biter who's best tool to weakly mock me, then blast off big boy. You sure sound good. Took me a while to realize you have nothing to say.

As for Kerry for President - dude, when the fuck did I link being a Catholic to being evil? Just the same as I don't think all,oh, American's are evil for electing Bush or, even, all German's evil for having (gasp) elected Hitler back in the day. And I also said that the reaction of Catholics has been mixed. So stop putting words in my mouth - i will spit them back in your fucking face. Hell, I think there are a hell of a lot more good people in the world than bad. Pope Nazi (snark) just happens to be one of those bad guys in my book. Disagree? You go with nazi childhood, gay bashing, and a pedophile enabler. Bully for you.

Hang that 'round your fucking neck.

Finally, Cos is right. I've spent the last two days reading up on the Church and the Nazis and I can find a lot of opinion on what Pious did and didn't do, but, the key thing for me was that a lot of Jewish people are big supporters of him. So that seals that. I was wrong about the Church faciliating the Nazis, at least according the people must hurt by them.

erm, you will never get it.  You try to analyze things in the views that you put them without rationalyzing further.

Gay people bring violence on themselves.  This is a statement by someone who belongs to an institution that thinks gay is wrong, not right, not accepted by their god, and basically a huge sin.  But you want him to make a statement that is pro gay?  What the hell do you expect him to say.  It's obvious he/ the church doesn't like gays, can you blame him for an anti gay statement.  People expect it, the same way they just claim they are sodomizers.

He's a pedophile enabler.  Under the circumstances of how the church dealt with the situation, I agree it was fucked.  No arguement from me here.  But he was still annointed by a panel of his peers who think he must of done it how they see fit.

Nazi pope.  this is just your own rediculous inability to accept that some people were in the nazi party under threat of life, to ease hardship and basically out of ignorance.  Funny how you can sit here and just label him the blanket of evil when most jews accept him as innocent.  Hell, he was the force behind the apology to the jews.  Even funnier how you would make cossacks grandmother hang her head in shame for doing what was basically self preservation.  I would like to see how you respond under the gun, if you still denounce those who wish to kill you, then you have more will then they did.  But until then, dunno what I can say.

The whole kerry thing was just satire of the linking of inate conspiracies and how you can make the most insane conclusions from them.  People do it all the time.

So in summation, when you sit there and type what I am pointing out is what's going on and how it has affected us, you still haven't realized this is how you interpreted it.  How you interpret things doesn't make them fact, it is just your opinion trying to be supported by facts.  You did actually sit there and state
You see, you are making the assumption that your argument is already correct and this is why you fear for america.  Did you ever think americans just don't see it your way and that is why it is mixed and not out of ignorance? Who's character do you refer to? those who don't believe what you do.  This is what is dangerous thoughts, I would rather has a colony of idiots then those who think evil is upon them because we don't see facts the way they interpret them.

Six, i'd suggest dropping your little rant. FahQ2 is right and you're wrong.

Well then, Six, I guess you got told. lol. But seriously guys, this is all opinion, for the most part. There is no right or wrong side, only sides that think they're right or wrong, as it is with most religious topics. Both sides have good points but everyone's a bit too stubborn to open their mind just a little. Now can't we all just get along and  ::bussi::?

damn baz certainly changed my mind with that post, what a great contribution to this thread he has been.

If thats the same Baz that myself and Shade had the pleasure of playing with on Game-ranger, well im surprised he knows what a pope is and managed to write that whole sentence all by himself.

 ::hot:: 

I aint pissed Six, and my grandmother certainly does regret what she had to do. What I am trying to get you to admit is that just because you were forced to join the Hitler Youth in the early part of your life, does not mean you subscribe to the beleifs and principles of National Socialism.

Go away for a weekend and return to find a nice juicy post. Thank Faq.


(at this point Ghost Sniper logs off) (anyone left? oh well...)

Ok. Not to be picky, but I'm not sure what you're on about. I think what you're saying is that I am analyzing "views" ie some one else's opinion through the my own frame of reference. Essentially. I'm trying to fit someone else into my box and finding they don't fit, complain. Sure, I am fitting being a member of the Hitler Youth, supporting gay bashing, and being pedophile enabler into my box of moral values and find - shock - dude's lacking. I also find it stunning that this bothers you and that you are willing to stand up and defend someone's bad past just because they themselves have a difference of opinion on the subject than me, the criticizer. And yeah, I'm aware this smacks of the very self righteousness that I'm all in a tizzy about. That's sorta the way it goes when you disagree very strongly about core prinniclpals. Maybe I seem like an easier mark to you than the pope, lacking the whole ordained by god, voted in by his peers thing.



Just because you expect an alcoholic to drink doesn't mean you're any less disappointed when he does. I wonder why you have trouble with me getting pissed that one of the world's centers of morals endorses a man as it's leader who despises a portion of our population just because of who they are, or, forgive me, better put, how they were Made.  I ask you, do you argee with this? Do you think distain and hatred is a moral value? Is it a value which any spiritual leader taught, including Jesus?


I am so frustrated by and sick of appologists who look at evil when done under the trappings of elected right or moral right and shrug, as if it's impossible to call a spade a spade when someone votes in a hoe. You think it's evil. Call it out, curse those that endorse it or cover it up. Fucking fight! Who cares if his peers endorse it? They are binding themselves to the same sick perversion. If you honestly believe their endorsement of a guy who enables pedophiles means I shouldn't, and you shouldn't, be any longer concerned about it, then I... I mean... I'm at a loss for words. Which brings me back to the fuckign nazis god damn it: here's a thought game and you tell me the answer.

If the Germans had held a simple majority vote, of all the Volk (Jews excluded), in '42, asking the people to decide if it was cool or not to burn Jewish folks in ovens till they died and the people endorsed it by a majority vote --- would that be a moral act, a right act, a correct act, just because it was voted on?

What I'm getting at is that I agree with you: one's Opinion doesn't provide one with the essence of Correctness. I'm not right because I believe I am. You can disagree; good, that's cool. I'd rather disagreement than a lack of interest. But don't tell me I shouldn't speak because the person or people I'm speaking out against disagree with me.

And for those out there who's favorite counter argument to all this is, "It's somebody else's bullshit; it won't spill on me." Well, who's to say it won't get shoveled on your front lawn? Certainly not you, you fucking mute.


Two things: He signed up. Attacking me for what I haven't done or what I might do doesn't change that fact no matter how much you want it to. But, just to play your game to the end, let's say I was faced with the exact same situation and did the exact same thing and someone was attacking me for being an ex-nazi. Guess what? They're right. I would be. Now, could he me a far better man than that label? Sure. In my opinion (do we have to start putting disclaimers up before we speak?) grounded in his actions toward pedaphilles and homosexuals, I don't think he's really all that much better than your average nazi. He's no SS man, sure. He's on par with the paper pusher moving trains towards Auschwitz in my book.

Second thing: The Church and Jews. The Jewish response towards the Pope's past makes me convinced he's no anti-semite. He's just the anti-gay and a pedaphille enabler.


Well, it does make me fear for our Democracy. I think when people don't care enough about something to bother debating it they stand to lose it. It's my opinion and I stated it as such. Again, do I need to start putting up disclaimers? And... what's your point? That I'm wrong, or might be? I willing to take the chance that I'm not vomiting truth when I speak my mind. 


Um, dude, if anyone, anywhere, ever makes an argument they assume or hell, know to be wrong, they're a hypocrite. Me, I assume my opinion is worth stating and I want to kick into the mix as forcefully and loudly as possible because I hope it's right. I might be wrong. But I'm betting I'm not. If people see things another way, I hope we can talk about it. Or yell about it, all red faced and shit. But, look, don't knock me 'cause I'm voicing my opinion and am willing to pick apart other people's opinions. I expect the same to be done on me.


AS FOR BAZ
Your pwnage of me still stings.

COS
I admit it: being forced to join something doesn't mean you believe in the thing. I'll stop there. (and you're starting to sound an aweful lot like Walter from The Big Lebowski)

So you don't believe he's a NAZI anymore?  :o

Sigh.

Lock it. The bird is done.

Admirable phrasing from both camps.

In that seemingly diametric placement of those two opinions and examinations, we find the profound, sublime beauty of the paradox. The paradox will be the answer currently eluding the masters of theoretical physics. The jar is both half empty and half full in fact.
And to borrow a phrase 'as it is above, so shall it be below'.  Eventually at some point in our futures, the paradox will be used to explain EVERYTHING...ie Unified field theory. Upon completion or discovery, this theory will also correctly apply to all intellectual discussion when viewed from the outside...ie..the suicide bomber is a hero to someone...for reasons that you and i cannot fathom, because we are the 'other'.
We think hes a monster, but dammit, hes commited to his faith...and we'd all agree that faith (in something-even nihilism) is a prerequisite for waking up every day....or becoming an activist for any cause you can think of...including agreeing or disagreeing with that particular choice for a pope. (theres some belief system at work informing the talking points we would use to discuss the merits of our case for or against-whos to say who is right?)

And that is why, the human politic is frail. Its flawed.
Interests and opinions, debate built upon polarity and self-interest
creates a dog chasing its tail.

Is the tail faster than the dog, or the dog slower than the tail?
Im not big enough to figure that one out yet.
The answer made Buddha laugh.


 ::sheep::

Refresh my memory...

Name sounds familiar but I don't remember what he was doing.

Is the dog a nazi too?

no, its merely obsessive compulsive.

 ::bluh::

dont take me too terribly seriously,
i dont talk like that in real life.
unless im addressing the retardation of the sales staff.

Know what I love? When the other side starts comparing gay marriage to death camps. All i was doing was calling an ex-nazi a nazi.

Here's what a Spanish Catholic Cardinal had to say on the new law in Spain allowing for same-sex marriage.

<<<
"If you give obedience to the law priority over obedience to your conscience, that leads to Auschwitz," Cardinal Ricard Maria Carles, former archbishop of Barcelona, told a Spanish television station.

He added:

"The people who made Auschwitz were not criminals, but people who had been forced to, or thought they had a duty to, obey the laws of the Nazi government rather than their own conscience."

The Triangulo foundation, a Spanish gay rights group, said that comparison with the Holocaust was "repugnant" and called on the church to "stop sowing hatred against victims of discrimination and against victims of the Holocaust, among whom there were many homosexuals."
>>>

The people who made Auschwitz were not criminals?

Maybe this guy's just trying to suck up to Pope Nazi. Or maybe the people who run the church are filthy, twisted human beings. But that's just my opintion.

http://www3.advocate.com/news_detail.asp?id=16122