*DAMN R6 Forum

I figured I would make a new poll since I really havn't made a totally worthless poll in quite a while.  I only included single-engine day fighters that were produced in huge enough numbers to affect the outcome of the air war and scored considerable numbers of air kills in their theaters of operation.

Notice there are no Russian-built or Italian-built fighters on the list.  That was no mistake.[/size]  ;)

The Me 262 was the best; but since its not on the list I'll go with the Bf109. It might not have had the range or speed of the p51, but it served all the way from 1939 all the way to 45, and bf109 pilots had more kills than in any other fighter.

I think most people will just vote by national preference since few actually know anything about WW2 aircrafts, acordingly I voted for the Spitfire. Go brits!  ::applause::

They did overcome "The battle of Britain" with those planes so they can't be bad.

Went with Spitfires as well. Raping the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain and crippling them for the rest of the war= good times.

Unfortunately, the Me 262 came far too late in the war, and in far too few numbers to affect the outcome of the air war.  I only included fighters that were built in huge numbers and scored enough kills in their theaters to really make a difference.  I also left out twin engine fighters and night fighters (the P-38 Lightning basically led the air war in the Pacific).

The Bf 109 was a great fighter, it was just a little old even by the time WWII started (few people realize it first flew in 1935 and was even used in the Spanish Civil War).  The Fw 190 was the premier Luftwaffe fighter during WWII, but was not produced in the high numbers of the Bf 109 (35,000 Bf 109's were built versus 20,000 Fw 190's).

Also, the Spitfire was another old fighter by WWII standards.  Its basic airframe first flew as a racing plane with pontoons in the early 30's.  Very good fighter, although the Hawker Hurricane probably deserves more credit in the Battle of Britain than the Spitfire (the Spitfire still wasn't available in as high of numbers as the Hurricane at that time).[/size]

My vote goes for the messerschmitt because it was one of the fastest planes during its time and it was a bitch to take down for american pilots and their mustangs.

Well, wasn't too hard for my grandfather to take down three Bf 109's flying his P-38 Lightning.  Too bad he never got a chance to fly the P-51.[/size]

Wasnt the lightning the answer to the germans invention of the messer? I though the messer came first and we couldnt catch so we invented the lightning and then from their out we dominated due to the fact our pilots were far superior?

all due respect but German pilots were the best in the war.  They had the most kills (mostly due to the fact that  there was a lot of stuff to shoot down over Germany).  I can't remember the exact number, but the top 10 German fighter pilots all had over 200 kills.

No, both the P-38 Lightning and the Bf 109 flew long before WWII began.  They are rare in that respect, as most of the other fighters that served during WWII were developed closer to the beginning of the war.[/size]


No, that is not true.  The German pilots had the most kills because they weren't rotated home from combat every year like the American pilots were.  Big difference when you are flying non-stop throughout the war, instead of only in combat for 1 year periods, or less.

As for the German pilots being better trained, well that was only true at the beginning of the war.  By the time 1942-1943 rolled around, the American pilots were much better trained then everyone else.[/size]

A country doesnt have much time to train its pilots when it is being bombed every day. Or much time to afford their pilots any time off for that matter.

Exactly.  Sucks to be on the losing end of a war you started, doesn't it?[/size]  ;)

Hahah pwned.

Comming from the guy who thought the lightning was the answer to the bf109......

well, UK was being bombed like none other and they still managed to hold their own in the air, so i'm not sure if that's such a great example. germans were just stretched too damn far i suppose.

Lose if ur head wasnt so far up ur ass ud notice that i was asking if it was. But hey what can i expect....

Haha, man rebel, calm down.  There is no need to insult eachother.  The truth of the matter is your opinions are misinformed. I mean you said that the bf109 was was one of the fastest planes in the war, which is completely wrong, it wasn't slow, but compared to the me262 the me 169, and the Glouster Meoter it was nothing.  In fact you even say that the bf109 was fast enough to be a "bitch" to the mustang, but the fact is the mustang was a faster and superior plane. The lightning was relatively fast, but it was used more for its range in the pacific campaign and was hardly used in Europe.  It had very poor cornering and had little success versus German fighters. Furthermore the mustang came out after the lightning, and the reason for its production was that the lightning had proved ineffective against german fighters as a long range escort for bombers, so they designed the mustang to do the job the lightning was supposed to do.  I could go even further and tell you the different engines they installed in each plane. I could tell you about the drop tank they formatted for the mustangs to give it longer range. I could tell you about the balancing mechanism the bf109 had that made it possible for the Gemans to mount their guns in the propellar. Shit, I could even tell you that American pilots nick named the bf109 "the blow job" because they enjoyed shooting them down so much that the sensation the got from the kill was similar to that of getting your cock sucked. And finally, if the bf109 was "such a bitch" for mustangs to take down, how is it that Chuck Yeager shot down 5 of them in one day? Don't go around flaming and talking shit when you obviously don't have much knowledge on the subject, son.

Actually, the British trained their pilots out of the range of German bombers (not to mention you had American pilots flying in defense of Britain with the RAF from the very start).  Plus the German bombing effort wasn't nearly as intense as the Allied bombing effort.  The Germans did very well, all things considered.[/size]

not being a dick, but are you sure from the very start or just from the time the us officially entered the war?

nice, i did not know that.

This is so up my alley.

First off, I picked the Spitfire. Specifically I'd go for the Spitfire MkI -- first of the few. History would have been different but for the MkI and Sir Hugh Dowding.

Now, I'm figuring Ghost doesn't mean the best fighter in terms of which fighter in the hands of a pro was the best. Hands down, of those offered, it's the F4U. If I had to pick best fighter of all fighters that actually saw combat, it's the Me-262.

Anyway: why no Russian fighters? The Yak 3 deserves to be up there.

RE: Yak 3: "Essentially a lightweight clipped wing variant of the Yak-9,  Pilots report that the aircraft flew similar to the Spitfire  but with better initial climb. Praised for being light,  fast, and rugged, the Yak-3 was rated as "superior"  to the FW 190 and the Bf 109G which it was meeting on a daily  basis."

Btw, Ghost: did you get this idea from Chuck Hawks' article?

i don't know much about corsair except i love the wing design!

No, I just thought it up all on my own.  I am still working on a book on U.S. Military Aviation, and this just popped into my head.  It's interesting to see who thinks what fighter was the best.  I mainly do things like this, and my quizes, to make people more aware and knowledgable about subjects which interest me.

By the way, the problem with the Russian built fighters, like the Italian built fighters, is that no one fighter really stood out and was built in huge numbers and affected the outcome of the air war with a significantly high number of aerial victories.  That isn't to say that they didn't build a few good fighters.

By the way, the North American P-51 Mustang is generally considered the best all-around fighter of WWII.  Many P-51 pilots shot down Me 262 jets.  This isn't just my opinion, it is the opinion of both friend and foe alike during the war, and comes from first-hand accounts from pilots I have talked and exchanged letters with from all over the world (including Erich Hartmann, who went up against American pilots in P-51's during one short timespan during the war).  The P-51 gave the allies the escort plane with the range to follow the bombers all the way to Berlin, as well as the performance to go up against the best that the Luftwaffe could dish out.  My grandfather always told me he would have loved to fly the P-51, that it was by far the best fighter ever built (up to that time).  He flew P-38 Lightnings and faired well against the German Bf 109, including a dogfight in which he was awarded the Silver Star for protecting 3 badly damaged B-17 Flying Fortresses against several Bf 109's that came in to finish them off.  He was the lone plane left to protect the bombers, and he turned towards the Bf 109's and in a head on pass, shot down the lead plane.  Might be notable to tell you that he was flying on only 1 engine at the time (one engine was shot up in an earlier dogfight...he was limping home when he spotted the B-17's in trouble).[/size]

god knows i hate war but i'll be damned if it can't bring out the best in a man.

Yeah the P-51 was a great plane and had a tremendous impact in the european campaign. The only reason why I chose the Me109 over the p51 was the fact that the me 109 contributed the most to the airwar than any other plane (excluding bombers, I mean the allies were flying numerous 1000 bomber raids towards the end of the war).  An interesting thing about Hartmann and p51's is that when he flew the me262 he went up against p51s and didnt score a single kill against them. However in his bf109, over the course of his career, he shot down 5 p51s.

That's some balls.

I've read a lot about the P-51/Me-262 match up. Not lucky enought to chat with their pilots (I HAVE had the chance to chat up two B-17 gunners: one tail and one ball. I think they might like your g-pa) -- and my granddad was a RCAF mechanic in Burma. I'm pretty well torn between the two, but would have to give the Me-262 the edge on stats and armament. The P-51H was right up there but lacked the speed to control the fight, so I'm betting, and just betting, that of two roughly even pilots the Me-262 could win... just because he can dictate the terms of the fight.


What Ghost said is true, but might be misconstrued. A handful of Yanks served in the RAF. I mean, there were more POLES flying in the BoB than US ex-pats.


Not that hard to rack up hundreds of kills -- relatively speaking -- when you're facing the ruskies.

not that i want to turn this into a flame war, but i would like to ask ghostsniper this, why you are referring to peoples death's as being a "score", war is not a computer game, some of my relatives lost their lives during WWII, I would hate to think of them as a "score" to some pilot/army person. Anybody who looses their life is not a score, its a tradegy (cept for a few cases) to that persons family and friends.

 ???

:edit:

btw, i picked spitfire  ;D

ok, its 9pm for me, had a few drinks (about 6 cans)... and just read your post....I want to ask something else....

1, do you (in this day and age) think its ok to say the word "score" for a kill?, even if it is a word commonly used in so called aviation talk.

more to the point, and again not calling you a liar, but even if they did parchute down, how do you know they survived?

1.  It's not whether it's okay or not.  It's just the way it is.  You aren't going to change almost 100 years of military tradition (even tank gunners call it "scoring a kill" when they destroy an enemy tank).  Doesn't really bother me though.

2.  No, we don't know for sure if the 3 pilots survived.  It's unfortunate if they didn't.  But it was war, and people do get killed in war.  You either get killed yourself, or you do the killing (sometimes both).

Now go to bed Wiggy, it's getting to be your bedtime!  ;)

OK,

GS, if someone in your family died recently,, and they were labelled a "score" would that not bother you... in other words... they would be a statistic..... I know for a fact, i would be so angry for someone close to me being called that... I dont want to change 100yrs of military tradition, whats the point, you are so set in your ways, we are not numbers/statistics, we are human beings. If one of my friends/or someone i know i knew died tomorrow, I would'nt think.... ahh well, thats another 1 person that died before they reach their 30th birthday... another "score" towards early death.

So it doesnt bother you that you might have lost people that you know, through military combat?, did you just shrug it off and say "well the enemy "scored" another kill"?

heh, just having a debate GS, no hard feelings from my side.... it's just like hitting a --->>>  ::wall:: sometimes when trying to get your points across on forums.

anyways, going to bed, might continue tomorrow.......  :)

Don't know this, but perhaps the "score" thing came about to distance themselves from the lives they took? If they were so cold as to refer to ppl as score, why would they bother to look for a parachute, as GS grandfather did? Besides, you don't see the man, you see the machine....

Onwig - Ghost's a brick wall but he's right. It's just how things are talked about. Frankly, this is a case of "deal with it". Even I, as bleeding heart as I am, see nothing wrong with that label.

And yes Brutha, it's a way of distancing one's self from the death. It's very common in jobs with high stress, be it in the emergency room (where they have other names for things), the board room, or the battlefield.

heh, i didnt mean talking to GS is like talking to a brick wall, i meant, i find it hard to get my points accross correctly on forums, but now that you said it, yeah your right  ;)

sixhits, I can, just as well as others can, disagree with something. I was just merely expressing and asking why it/has been called a "score".

People who have lost their life, should not in my eyes be called a "score", this is my opinion but maybe i should get some counselling to "deal with it"  ;) , as i said in a above post, i dont/cant/probably never will be able to change that in your systems/or any military organisations, or any other "labels" that you could think off.

and btw, I am happy to see the Spitfire in the lead :D

Okay, it's getting scary how much Sixhits is agreeing with me lately.  I just hope I'm not moving more to the left...lol[/size]


The Spitfire was a great fighter, true.[/size]

Your text -is- blue, you know...  :o

I've never understood why Democrats get to be "blue" and Republicans have to be "red".  Just isn't fair!!!

Now, back to something remotely on-topic:

I hope you guys are studying up on your WWII trivia...The April Quiz starts Friday.[/size]  ;D

I'd have to say the zero is the best.  Just the name it self says enough "ZERO" and it is the number before 1 ;D

ooooo, ooooo, can I play in the April Quiz?  Being a closet nazi and all! :-X  (GS wil understand that one)


Unteroffizier Johann Brändlien

a.k.a Uffz.B

Sick Static, really sick.  The Corsair, P-38, and Hellcat kicked the Zero's ass in the Pacific.[/size] ;)


Of course Static, everyone is welcome in my quizes (except whoever won last month's quiz...:MoD: Shade is not allowed to play).[/size]

Off topic info dump:
Only recently did Republican become "red" and Dem "blue". For quite a while they were reversed. Perhaps Ghost is just that old school conservative.

In europe Red is socialist while Blue is..well...right wing...

http://warbirdsofww2.tripod.com/famousplanes.htm

You are 100% absolutely...WRONG!

The B-24 was the most produced aircraft of the Unites States during WWII, not the most produced aircraft during WWII.

Try again. :)

Me-109

well i blame that damn website.

Really? I know that Bf- was used for early models but thought that after july '38, when the firm that initiated the design (Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG) was redesignated Messerschmitt AG, later Messerschmitt designs carried the prefix Me- instead of Bf-.

Also, are you talking about that damn Cessna again? :-)

Ok, Ilyushin IL-2m-3 Shturmovik: 36,000