*DAMN R6 Forum

Good evening,

we promised to do no more changes during the season, nevertheless we think it is useful to do this one. We, the *DBL admin team discussed pro and contra the last few days, and we all believe that it would be the best to upgrade the current used Sheep System of the GhR and RvS Team ladders to the Fatten Your Sheep System. Originally it was planned to do so with the start of season XI but we think we should already do so yet, 10 days after season X actually started.

The reasons are simple: The Fatten Your Sheep System would help to better implement a skill aspect as it uses how skilled the clan, you just played, is as well as your sheep bet.  So basically the FyS system would take the best of two worlds and combine them into one, using skill and risk.  Right now (with the Sheep System) we feel the team ladders are focusing far too much on risk (sheep bets) and far too little on skill.

I recently tried to explain the Fatten Your Sheep system, in this thread (http://www.damnr6.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=7695.msg109747#msg109747), and it was soon obvious that no one really understood it right. I took a step back and saw that I always tried to explain it from a technically point of view and not from a gamer's view so I completely redid the explanation and every rules needed for the FyS system.

You can find a new very clear and short explanation here: http://www.damnr6.com/mods/fyspdf.zip

What disadvantages does it have to upgrade the system after the first 10 played season days!?

None, all your cbs are still in place, you are just now ranked after the Fatvalues, and some clans who made some very high sheep bets against starters, may gonna lose some ranks, while clans that have beaten top clans may go up some ranks, but nothing that you can't change with a few cbs ;-)

I and the *DBL admin team really hope that you also see the benefits of a more accurate ranking that takes skill and your gambling(sheep bet) into account and let us upgrade the system.

We only do so if the majority of you votes for it. Every active clan of the team ladders will be informed right now after this posting about this vote and we hope to get 1 vote from each clan if you agree with the upgrade or if you don't as soon as possible.

Every clan just post an

(A) - Yes I and my clan agree with the upgrade midseason

or

(B) - No I and my clan don't agree with an upgrade midseason


Thank you very much for your time,

*DAMN Mauti
*UPDATE*: Sheep classes are now visible

heh, I remember me suggesting to use the "Fatten your sheep" system for the team ladders also, and not only for the fun ones. ;) :) so I'm personally for it, of course. it's a very good thing to make it more skill-based, but still with the sheep betting part which affects the SheepFat (ELO) score.

two questions, tho:

- what about the 20 sheep bet limit for the first 8 cbs, which the "Fatten your sheep" system has?

- how many people play in a cb wouldn't really matter anymore, right? since there is no bet-limit depending on the cb-size (amount of players) in this system.


all in all...

(A) - Yes I and my clan agree with the upgrade midseason :)

@ Civic: Yes, and we wanted to test the system upgrade first out, but we see how great it works on the CQB ladder and so we would like to upgrade already now, especially with the updated FyS explanation it is really easy to use and understand the system at all.

However we are aware that the season already started so a majority must be for it, otherwise we gonna introduce it next season to the team ladders.

As it is written in the FyS pdf file the sheep bet limits would be still active, like they are used in the current FyS ladders:


Bye,

Mauti

(A) - Yes I and my clan agree with the upgrade midseason

We've had a lot of discussion about this, and although yes its a propsed change, it dosn't affect people directly in their playing - it is a modification of how the scoring takes ranking and clan 'skill' into account. We've discussed a lot more positives than negatives with this system and i think despite it being a mid-season alteration the positive effect on the calculation of the ladder will counteract this.

------------------- Edit -------------------

After much discusion with the clan the overall concensus was that this should not be implemented in the season and should wait until season XI   ... therefore i have no alternative than to vote the following

(B) - Nomy clan don't agree with an upgrade midseason

I remember when you use to be able to walk into McDonalds and simply order a "Big Mac meal with a Coke". It was simple, easy and you didn't have to think about it. Now, when you order, they ask you all kinds of questions. Do you want to Super Size your order? Do you want fries or onion rings? Maybe an apple pie?

What's McDonalds have to do with Fat Sheep? We'll, they've taken a incredibly simple process, added layers of complexity onto it and turned it into something you have to think about. That's what this Fat Sheep thing does to the scoring system... takes a simple system and makes it complex. I'm not for it. There's no need.

I really prefer the old/current system. I don't need a Fat Sheep system to know the skill level of z][t, Po)| or :MoD:. I'm online enough and know enough of their guys to know how to bet them. Thumbs down to the upgrade.

(B) - No I and my clan don't agree with an upgrade midseason

 (A) - Yes I and my clan agree with the upgrade midseason


-- fixed color. bfg --

(B) - No I and my clan don't agree with an upgrade midseason

Though we support the new scoring system, we believe it should be instated beginning next season. The ladder's current rankings would possibly change as a result of the new scoring system. Also, we need to keep a rule a rule. We should not make allowances. What limits other changes from being made as long as a majority votes for it? What can be changed? Seems like a lot of people would like spawns changed or maps added or deleted... can those be changed now with a majority vote?


-Ein
-Representative of The UnKnowN Clan

 A) - Yes I and my clan agree with the upgrade midseason



-- fixed color ;) bfg ---

(B) - No I and my clan don't agree with an upgrade midseason

I understand the intention, and I can appreciate it, but I don't think this is the way to go about it. Why not have different classes that clans can opt into? Teams in the same class would wager at equal values, while "inter-league" play would net different values - playing higher class teams would earn you more and opponents less, playing lower class teams would earn you less. Clans would automatically be moved up and down the hiearchy of classes as they win or lose over a series of matches. 
Finals would cull from all the class levels in varying quantiites, for example all the clans in the top class would be invited, 75% of the next level, 50% of the next, etc. so that even the leader in the lowest class would get to play in the finals.
That seems more simple, and cuts out alot of the complexity, and takes the subjective (and merely reccomended) betting stuff out of the picture.

In any event, during the season is not a time to change.

Murd.


--fixed colour. bfg --

(B) - No I and my clan don't agree with an upgrade midseason

Changed my vote after coming to my senses.......rules shouldn't change mid season - fullstop.

What Murd said + what Mr. T said makes sense.

Thanks Tigah, but just to be clear, what I was saying (and I know this isn't what the vote is about) is that I don't think we even need this Fat Sheep system.

The number of DBL Ghost Recon players has steadily fallen over the 3 years that I've been playing. I log on sometimes and there are only 4 or 5 rooms open. There's a limited group of people that play the the game and an even smaller core group who play competatively in the DBL. For those of us in this core group, the Fat Sheep system is useless.

I know [a] and Po)| and z][t and any of the other clans that compete. I don't even need to look at their rankings on the score board to know how many sheep to bet. Plus, after a hard day's work, the last thing I want to do is some silly math problem to figure out my sheep bet. I just wanna cap some fucker and watch him do the slow death dance as he sinks to the ground.

I do think that it's an interesting way to rank teams. I'm not against the concept. I guess if there were more clans, then this might be helpful, but with the ever shinking DAMN DBL Ghost Recon community, I don't think it's needed at all.

The problem is people want a competitive ladder, and at the same time they don't want any system to make it competitive. U don't need to look at the score board, you don't need to think about sheep - i can say from a personal side we certainly don't - its always a matter of just who is on. However all this system is doing is leveling the playing field to keep the competition fair - so that new clans are rewarded more for beating better clans, and top clans aren't rewarded for picking on inexperienced  'easy' clans.

I think your missing the point of that the new system helps the new clans...if we don't welcome new clans with open arms then the community...like it is...will shrink with no prevention. Anyway I always see the usuall 8-10 ghr games. Ghr is still in the top 10 and til it moves out of it i wouldn't call it a small community compared to most of the games on GR.

'leet clan' beats 'leet clan' = 5 sheep
'leet clan' beats 'noob clan' = 20 sheep

'leet clan' is 5-0 vs. 'noob clans' = 1st place
'different leet clan' is 10-0 vs. 'leet clans' = 2nd place

makes sense = no
change system = yes

vote based on what you think will be the most fair, instead of based on if your rank will change = yes

Why is it bad to change this mid season?  I'd like someone to give me a reasonable answer, besides 'we agreed not to change rules midseason'.

'Because then we can't keep taking advantage of the system' isn't a reasonable answer in my book.

No, I, nor my clan agree with the change

1. We shouldn't change mid season
2. It's way to complicated, and as a primarily RvS clan, its been fine getting cbs, and we are perfectly content with our position on the ladder.

(A) - Yes, my clan and I agree with the upgrade midseason

Moving on to a more sensible system, with actually having a meaningful regular season, it is important to use the best possible point system.

so... when's the deadline of this vote?

current standing is:  7 - 5

surely it shouldn't be a majority vote but more of a out right everyone one way or the other to get the go ahead... ;D

I appreciate your more general point Gabe, but your insinuation that our decision is based on losing some rankings is pretty needless and "assholic" if you forgive the term.

In what other event would you change the rules midseason? The reason for not doing it is self evident.

It's too much tinkering, hell I liked it better before the betting, when the two teams relative ranking determined your score - isn't that basically what you're trying to create here? Why is there so much trouble going to regulate this betting system - I mean you're just telling people how much to bet.

Don't get me wrong, the sheep were a cool idea, but for me personally the betting isn't that fun, its kind of a drag to hash it out, another delay in inevitably delayed cb's. Just want to play, and have a simple fair ladder.

Murd.

Good morning,

I gonna contact now again all clans that haven't voted yet to close this proposal and so that everyone can go ahead. I prefered to see the action going on in GameRanger not in the Forum  ;)

Vote is gonna be closed at 11:00pm CET.

Bye,

Mauti

b... there is a saying that goes "Keep it simple stupid"

(A) - Yes I and my clan agree with the upgrade midseason

(A) - Yes I and my clan agree with the upgrade midseason


just to support de league but i'm still confused, i'll take more time to get it right

but do as u like

I would not like to see a clan that does not play in my ladder affect what happens in it and viceversa!

So clans that are registered for RVS and GR but only play in one particular ladder, their votes should count toward that ladder and not "In General".

Please, count the votes of clans that play the RVS ladder separate from those that play the Ghost Recon ladder..... for examle: Po)| is registered for both ladders but only plays the Ghost Recon ladder, so our vote should only affect that ladder and not the RvS one....

This is out of Respect and Responsibility for others ! Keep voting separate.

On the other hand, this is one of those cases where a simple majority should not be enough to make an ammendment to out Constitution.... For an ammendment, it should be at least a 2/3 majority... That's how it is in life, and how it should be here.

You're trying to sell the idea that a change in the system midseason is fair.... well, it isn't. We all agreed to play by ceratin rules, and even you Mauti have said it.. there has been so much more CB action since the beggining of the season... People are actually having FUN ! Isn't that what this was about? And it's been fair, because we are all playing by the rules laid out! So don't go killing the season by imposing this rule to more than 30-45 % of the clans which are actually keeping this League alive, because you may unwillingly be Killing it! - I guarantee that if this rule goes through, the CB numbers will decrease dramatically... you watch!   

Regardless, Po)| will play... we fear not the Fat system, we just think it comes at the wrong time... Save it for Season 11....

If you want to really make this league fair: Then have a system that matches each clan with the other clans a certain minimum amount of times per season (period). - Also, solve the issue about unfair hosting - when Euro clans compete vs. American clans - and everyone complaints about Lag issues.. Split hosting has been the closest thing to making it fair in this case; but I have heard that there are "servers" out there that are actually very good to host this type of Cbs.. like GhostSnipers... where no one lags that badly... In other words... a Neutral Host in this scenario would make things better for all. What's the use of splitting, when I will lag in your server and you will lag in mine... is that truly fair? The 2 negatives cancel each other out in that case? - These are more important issues to focus on! Why doesn't the league come up with a Neutral Server with awesome power/speed for all to host this transcontinental CBs?

It gets tiring ! Over and out .....

hmmm i know its a bit stupid but after thinking about the rule changing i and my clan came to the result that it would be better if u would wait untill next season for the rules changing..

NO

No problem Niklot that's your good right!

Bye,

Mauti

(A) - Yes I and my clan agree with the upgrade midseason

so the mainreason (probably not even the real reason :-/) of all the (B)-voters is that they dont want rules to change mid-season... oh that's great.


question: what disadvantages does changing to the FyS-System have?

- you could lose ranks if you beat mainly low-ranked clans, especially for many sheep... but is that a real disadvantage? if you say yes... i dont even want to say my opinion about that, not to flame.

question 2: what advantages does changing to the FyS-System have?

- you get awarded more for winning against high-ranked clans.
- your wins are worth more.
- your ladder-rank is worth much more.


what is honestly the reason why this shouldn't be changed "mid-season"?


my problem here is:

the *DBL decided to award the mainseason-winner additionally to the Finals winner from now on... we didn't get to vote on that. we get to vote on if we want to change the system to the much more skill-based FyS-System... which is good.
BUT: what sense does this make? without the FyS-system, winning the mainseason is worthless and getting awarded for it says pretty much nothing about how good you really are! you could simply beat "easy" clans for many sheep all season long and win... nice job!

my point is:

either both or none. either BOTH now or BOTH for season XI.
i'd have no problem with waiting to change the system if there wouldnt be the new additional award for the mainseason-winner. reason: it's meaningless without the FyS-system.

that's why z][t voted for (A) - Yes I and my clan agree with the upgrade midseason, so that winning the mainseason is not meaning- and worthless.

Clans are voting B (NO), not because they will lose ranks; we would be the only clan out of all the one's voting No that  falls under that situation. So thats not the reason! I can tell you, we do not care about that!

We are standing up for our rights. Don't go out insult us, just because we are playing by the actual rules that govern us right now at this same minute. I didn't come up with them, but I respect them.

All clans are created equal, and each clan battle should be worth what its worth - That is what our current rules state... the rule doesn't talk about noob clans or elite clans... so now you propose a system that will make that differentiation - great! It would have been great to have known that before hand. That is why to introduce it now it would be unfair...

It's like changing baseball rules to 2 strikes you're out because hitters are getting on base too often... after a season has began and many other pitchers had to sweat it out to throw their 3 strikes... how does that leave them? That's why rules should be set at the beginning , when everyone can prepare and go from there on an equal basis.

Now you're telling me that I wont be able to CB a clan that, even though its elite, has not Cbed all season because they like to wait until later to get started... becaue if I play them under this new rules,  they will affect my FAT cause they are ranked 20th - even though they are great players... cheeezzszzz ! Tell me if thats fair?

Yes, you can find unfairness in both cases.. that's true... but at least everyone knew what to attain to once we started Season 10...... now, it makes it look like this rule is more of a  witch hunt!
Go your way, burn them down !

I think its a lack of understanding and the fear of change. That's what it usually comes down to.

So if the system changes...is there a chance *AGT* would move into first place?  (sound of crickets chirping)
  
I liked the old system...beat a top clan and jump a few spots... gave the bottom feeders incentive to battle the higher up guys.... I would love to see some change to the current system, but a change during the season will just spark controversy. You know someone will cry bloody murder if shit doesn't go thier way after the change.  I'm down for some sort of change to the Ladder, but I think it should wait till Season XI  (coming from a clan who is currently 0-6 on the GhR team ladder).

why wait?! state some reasonable reasons why we should wait until Season XI. in fact, there's nothing against it except the general and, in this case, reason-less "we don't want changes during the season"... which is only a bad excuse, in my opinion.

YES! Cell knows what he's talking about.

The only reason we would wait is because it goes against everything that we promised not to do...that is...changing shit when seasons are going, and I know the season hasn't been going from long but it doesn't matter.

The season has barely started. Its the first season we have ever used the sheep system. We have no idea how it is going to turn out. I think before we judge the system, we should allow it to run its course over one season.

We used the sheep system last season too.

that's pretty much exactly what the FyS-System would improve the scoring to. :)


what would it hurt? it's not like a totally new Mappack mid-season that everybody would have to adapt to... that's why the *DBL "promised" not to change something during a season anymore.

though in this case, only the scoring would simply get improved to a more skill-based one (not a total over-haul)... no reason to wait.[/color]

Civic,
I have a completely reasonable and valid reason for voting to wait. I don't like the idea.

Just because you don't like/understand the "NO" voters decisions doesn't mean they are unreasonable and "reason-less". Please show some respect.

As voting stands right now, it looks like many clans are changing their original vote from yes to NO !

Yes - 7     NO - 9

Keep changing guys ! We still have time.... As for the reasons to change, they are there - just some are too blind to wanna see them !

Mr. T stating that you have reasons isn't a reason.

The Elite clan has voted per mail for Yes.

The vote has been closed - outcome will be posted in the news, even if things came to my ears that shouldn't have happened...

This topic will be locked now.

Mauti