*DAMN R6 Forum

Well, since no one is posting it, I might as well. The election is going on today/tomorrow in Iraq. Let's hope the terrorists aren't being liberal like Myst and anally raping people.

GO ELECTIONS! GO BUSH! BOO LIBERALS!

Blitz 8)

Vote for candidate #23230920302392003920  ::)

It will be a testament to the Iraqi people, not Bush, if things go well. And if it goes poorly it will be a testament to Bush, and not the Iraqi people.

I hope it does go very well and things get better in Iraq, I wish more that we had a competent administration that had done the planning better from the get go.

It seems that the election has gone fantastically.

Now it is time to see whether the mulitple groups can hash out a government. As well as whether the insurgents have truly been cowed or they are simply doing what they have done before: made a lot of noise, distracted our forces, lulled us into a false sense of safety and then attacked again when we least excepted it. For example, I imagine it will be much easier for them to strike at elected officials whos names are public than numbers on paper.

A triumph for an occupied people. Despite our boots on their throats and civil war inches away they brave adversity for freedom. Thomas Jefferson's light still shines.

And here's a fact: If this election does result in a functional government then our GIs should start coming home immeadiately. Wouldn't it be timely to declare victory and get the hell home?

Oh, I keep forgetting! Iran's next. And we need ground bases in Iraq and Iraqi military forces to stick it to them. And a draft.

If you believe they could support and protect themselves right now, you are delusional sixhits. The election was held now so Bush could say it was a success in the state of the union. The insurgents didn't waste resources on their own people, they probably plan to take out the winners as soon as the are declared so.

Well, here is what I heard this morning on my may to work. There was/is a 70% turn-out for the election. 8 suicide bombings, and about 30 deaths.  So to me, it is a success. ::applause::

Sixhits, I agree with Mysterio. There won't be a draft, and probably will never be a draft. Remember, we have the world's largest volunteer military.

And to start pulling military personnel out now would be suicide on our part and the part of democracy.  Yes a lot of people hate us, but who cares. Winning the war was the first step to victory, and the election is the second step, now we much have the third step, security.  When Afghanistan was "liberated" it took a few months to get it going, and we are inthe proccess of the third step there.  Besides, the US government, and NATO are actually not to base false intelligent reports about Iran.

Blitz 8)

Another BS puppet election, much like the British occupation of 1920.

Prediction: Allawi 'selected' has head puppet. Like in 1920 the newly 'selected' government will face coup after coup, until once again extremist elements seize control, like the Baathists of 1956, thus giving rise to a Saddam like U.S. backed authoritarian regime. Control will be enforced by 'death squads' similar to the U.S. backed Columbian autodefensas, which were CiA and special forces paramilitary units trained in counterinsurgency techniques, including sabotage and terror.

PS. Where can I get the naivete inducing hallucinogenic drugs you're on Blitz?

Question: Why did we go into Iraq?
Current Answer: To bring Democracy.
Question: Have we "brought Democracy"?
Answer: According to Bush, yes
[url]http://nytimes.com/2005/01/30/international/middleeast/30cnd-reac.html?hp&ex=1107147600&en=6de41a34c6b98180&ei=5094&partner=homepage/[url]
Question: What futher official goals remain?
Answer: None
Question: Why should our troops continue to occupy a sovereign democracy?
Answer: There is no valid reason

Sixhits, besides you royally fucked up their country. A BS election doesn't make insurgents stop.

Sure doesn't. But in the magic land of Bush it's all succes all the time. Figure might as well pull one back for our troops, who have no business being there.

guys c'mon, we invaded them to freethem, look how happy they are now! running in the streets and partying.

No Kuza. You invaded to get the "WMD"...er.....oil?....errrr......hmmm....At this stage I am getting confused.

So folk think everything is going to be hunky dory now eh?

• So the Allies can pull out and return home their work done and Iraq a free country ... Um are we taking the weapons of mass destruction with us?  Will the big american Oil companies working on getting that lovely Oil to America be leaving too?

• People think that because there has been a election suddenly the suicide bombing will stop?

• What exactly do people think is going to happen when suddenly everybody pulls out and there is a massive security vacuum?

And mean while Israel is quietly building its wall in breach of the UN, and it continues to oppress palestinians and steal land from farmers etc - without any compensation, without any knowledge until the bulldozers move in... Making lots of nice space for some new israeli settlements.

 ::applause:: ::applause:: ::applause::
^^^^^^^^^
To BFG on ALL points.

The Iraq War was not for oil Myst...simply buying the oil would be cheaper than the war. The war was about influence. If we get Iraq to work out we have influence in the Middle East and a bit of a tip of the hat to China and Russia.

....but what will Iran be about? (publicly)

Well i expect suddenly the world will be in great danger from Iran and that it will be the Mission of the US to go on another Crusade to fight the evil iranians and save the world. A College student will loose his/her homework on WMD's and it will suddenly appear in the brief cases of top politicians from the US and knowing Fuck brains Blair, in the UK to.

Bush will suddenly find that there are strong links between Al-Quieda and Iran and that as part of the war against terror we must free the poor iranians and liberate the country.

Hundreds of thousands of people will be murdered in the following war and the rest of the world will despise the actions of America even more, 51% of Americans will contiue to brainwash themselves that they are however right and are vastly superior to the rest of the world and can do what the hell they like because it dosn't affect their every day lives.

The middle east conflicts will flare up. Terrorist networks will be flooded with people wanting to retaliate against America for its actions. And the spiral of Death will continue

And then the world will blow up. And everyone will be fucked.

The end.

As always the bleeding heart bolshevik eurowussies (no flame intended, BFG) feel obliged to drag the Israeli-Palestinian issue into the discussion.....sigh.
The security wall/fence/barrier has been the most effective measure against suicide bombings. Before it was built, the IDF attempted to preempt suicide bombings through massive incursions with armored units into the palestinian areas. I think the wall is a better way of stopping suicide bombers, for both sides...In case you havent noticed there has been a significant decrease in these sort of attacks and the few that have occured came in areas where the barrier consist of motion sensors and fences (in the negev) or where the bombers found other ways of getting in (like using british passports). So for all the suffering the wall has caused the Palestinians, its probably the only reason Hamas and Jihad cant get bombers into Israel today and why the IDF doesnt mount massive operations in West Bank anymore, in which dozens of palestinians (armed and unarmed) get killed. In the absense of any significant political progress (which seems to be on its way), the barrier is the best way of preventing deaths on both sides. I dont think including many of the west bank settlements is a good idea myself, but you have to realize that the barrier has been very effective so far.

As for the Iraqi elections, this is the first step to getting the US and coalition troops out of iraq. If the new iraqi government asks them to leave, they will have to go. Until the iraqi security forces are fully trained and capable of handling the situation themselves, this would be suicide however, so it wont be happening soon. What I find depressing is that it is taking excruciatingly long to train and equip the iraqis. I think it's painfully clear that the americans want to get out of iraq ASAP, but not if it means leaving the country in a more dangerous state than it was two years ago.

Posted without comment:

U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote :
Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror


by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967: p. 2)

WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting.

According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday.  Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong.

The size of the popular vote and the inability of the Vietcong to destroy the election machinery were the two salient facts in a preliminary assessment of the nation election based on the incomplete returns reaching here.

Abe, the Israeli-Palestinian issue is perhaps the most central in the whole War on Terrorism. It is to a large degree the root of animosity.

I happen to think the Israelis should be able to build all the walls they want...ON THEIR LAND. The problem I have is that the Israelis are building the wall into Palestinian territory and basically landgrabbing...that is not acceptable.

Sal, even if the council that was elected in Iraq isn't some incredibly democratic institution, they still had an election (and were excited by it) and the terrorists failed to intimidate or cause much chaos. Regardless of the political implications, this was a major defeat of the insurgents.

Sal, I don't restrict myself to US only and certainly not to right-wing only sources. Even the Arabic stations are largely finding the election to be important and newsworthy rather than a joke.

Turnout rates are based on eligible voting population, not registered voting population, so that means the approximately 60% number is of all eligible Iraqi voters did vote, not 60% of those who registered.

Interesting tid bit that I'd enjoy hearing Ghostsniper's opinion on:

Been reading a book called "Tactics of the Crescent Moon: Militant Muslim Combat Methods" by H. John Poole. I haven't finished it yet. I'm into Chechnya. You can look at/buy it here.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?pwb=1&ean=9780963869579

Basic purpose of the book is to provide officer, troops, and anyone interested with current and historical insight into the tatics of our current enemies, the militant muslims. A quick overview of their tatical origins is this: a blend of classical oriental rules of engagement (strike where they are weak, always cover your true objectives, avoid cauluties, use fear, retreat in the face of superior foes, and ambush), hassassin (sp) inflitration techniques and suicidal willingness and an emphisis on light infantry.

This means they don't fight like us. We like firepower, destroying their strength, and the open field of battle. It also means that whenever we think they will do one thing they are likely to avoid doing it.

The thought crossed my mind that these bastards would never actually attack on election day. This is because it breaks all of their rules. They would have been attacking into our strength, announcing their objective, taking high casulties, have few aveanues to reatreat and no chance to set up ambushes. The only thing they could certainly do was instill fear. But they had more or less done that in the preceeding weeks. Plus, if they attacked their cost would be high.

So I don't think they (if you can really argue there is a "they" in Iraq) seriously intended to contest on election day.

They did the same thing around the "transfer of sovereignty". Lots of noise about doom and gloom but nothing came of it. It was in the following weeks that they stepped up their efforts and caused harm.

 A 10year old Palestinian girl was shot yesterday in the head from an israeli 'lookout' post. She was In a UN run school playground - lining up with her class mates waiting to go back inside. [/b]

And you support the israeli army doing this? This is their 'fight against terror' . 1. she was not a terrorist. 2. she was not a threat. 3. there was a fucking cease fire, 4. You will probably never have heard about this because of your fucked up media. 5. When this happens and people continue to support the Israeli illegal occupation and the continued oppression of Palestinians.

Ive i was that girls father right now i would be wanting to rip the piece of shit that killed my daughter to shreds. I wouldn't care if it was Hamas or Hizbollah,. This is what happens THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS. YOU ARE NOT FIGHTING TERRORISM YOU ARE CREATING HATRED AND MORE VIOLENCE.

I wish you'd lost your composure in the same way when Israeli children get killed by suicide bombers, mortars or homemade rockets.....but i guess their part of the evil zionist occupation machinery and don't deserve any sympathy.
And if you got your info from sources other than aljazeera.net and jihad.com, you'd know that it isnt clear at this point who killed the girl:


I'm not saying that the Israeli military are angels and I know full well that a lot of israeli soldiers are racist thugs, but I havent seen many Hamas tribunals that try their militants for killing women and children and not respecting the rules of warfare. It's too bad that you can't think objectively about these things and see past the brainwashing that the guardian and independant give you on a daily basis, because you seem to be intelligent, interested and concerned about these issues. Before you talk about fucked up media, keep in mind that I live in Europe, have access to the internet and probably read a lot of the same sources as you.

Jeeze im not some kind of bloody anti Jewish nutter, and i tottally agree there is no difference between israeli children and palestinian children getting killed in this stupid conflict, other than one side is being killed by terrorst groups, the other by an army... It just seems like a lot of people i see a very big difference between the activities of a 'highly trained' army and individual terrorist groups. I find neither acceptable,- both disgust me but i expect more from the israeli army, and little from terrorist groups prepared to attack civilians.

Perhaps in future i should expect nothing better from the Israeli army than from Hamas?

Ok given the previous incidents of Israeli's shooting Children, or UN workers, or Camera men etc i jumped the gun and i made the assumption that it defiantly was a bullet from an israeli soldier. thats wrong and yes there are questions over where the bullet came from... I was aware the IDF was apparently "investigating" but given previous investigations i wasn't exactly expecting them to come back with the response "oops sorry our mistake" when they still wont admit to other cases of intentional killing - by snipers or bulldozers.

I wouldn't exactly describe the guardian as brainwashing but thats your opinion, and certainly not my only source of news.

 I am just disgusted and frustrated by the continuous  violence we see and this common theme of "a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye" sickens me. After a while it is very easy to jump to conclusions when time and time the outcome has been the same.

BFG, it is hard to be an idealist in the world with so many realists who refuse to accept that peace is attainable. And I do agree that the biggest problem is that people hold the alleged good guys to similar standards as the bad guys. Our behavior in Iraq and various detainment camps shows the result of holding low standards for the US. Many of the Republicans I know defend it by saying "they behead people." Either way, I'm much less willing to attribute actions to a whole when it is only terrorist groups within the population causing the problem than a country's official military.

On the other hand, someone really needs to tell these people that what goes up must come down. When you shoot bullets indiscriminantly into the air, they will come down at some point and if they hit someone, that person will be hurt or killed.

Not quite true... but when u have stations like Fox entertainment news, and CNN etc etc... i expect we get a scewed view of the media over there... im sure there are a lot of extremely well informed, level headed straight talking news programs etc which 51% won't watch

Yep,
There's always PBS and NPR, but it seems few people actually watche/listen.....a shame because those are some of finest news sources, imo. Almost all of their stuff is online too.

BFG - please name one US news organization which is to the left of ANY major European news organization.

We're more left than European News Networks Network?
American very left Liberal News .org? ;)

Ok so the chances are actually there arn't any... awh well i was being polite ;)

• Associated Press
• Routers
--- or -----
• Channel 4 news
• BBC World Service

All I have to say is that if one of my friends gets killed by this f'ing "war on terror" there will be hell to pay (reading my furious letters) to all the people I can think to send them.

Sal, Sistani's group is almost undoubtedly going to get over 50% of the seats. Sistani is undoubtedly a popular figure of at least 50% of the populous. Sistani is definitely not an American puppet. I don't see where you are making your conclusions.

We knew going in that there was the threat of violence and that the Sunni turnout would be lower...how would you suggest the election be held so that wasn't the case?

I'd like to know what realistic plan you would have for holding a perfect election in Iraq (hell, the US can't even hold an election that isn't horribly flawed.)

Saddam Hussain was eligible to vote as an Iraqi... Somehow i don't think the Americans let him though

I had the same thought awhile back. Can't American prisoners (even on death row) vote?

I didn't think Iraq had WMD. I do think the election was problematic, but successful. I think the Shi'ites, in the interest of making things work, will invite the Sunnis to participate beyond their elected representation, understanding that they were underrepresented. I think the majority of those elected have no love lost for the Americans and will not tolerate overt political interference in the process of crafting the Constitution, relying instead on non-American UN assistance and will structure their government much more like European countries than the US. In the end, perception is reality and this election will be perceived as turning the tide. Whether or not it was a clean election doesn't matter.

Btw, boom.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-020305iraq_wr,0,3561003.story?coll=la-home-headlines

"Insurgent Attacks Kill 28 in Iraq"

Welcome to the future. It's as bad as the past.

Oh wow. who would have believed it. Throwing a "election" didn't stop the Insurgents or the restisters  from blowing people up and killing innocent civilians. Who would have believed it [/sarasm]

They will say that the election is just the first step to success... as they said when we first went into Iraq, as they said when "the war was declared over", as they said when we found Suddam... the list goes on. >:(

They make take a step over and to the side seeing as the focus is on Iran lately.

I find it amazing that so many of the "peaceniks" tend to root for the 'insurgents/rebels/freedom-fighters' who kill and maim countless innocent iraqis, threaten and use violence to disrupt the political process that will lead not only to the US getting out of Iraq, but also to the reconstruction of a country that has suffered imeasurably and whose people have persistenltly been abused for the past 30 years. Do any of you people ever think about the ordinary iraqis, who try to make an ordinary life out of an impossible situation? How about the people who stand up to the thugs and join the police and national guard or simply go to the polling centers to vote, despite the threats from the thugs and terrorists? They deserve a lot more sympathy than the assholes who are "fighting for their freedom and dignity" by blowing up civilians and disrupting the daily lives of people. Yes, iraqis want the americans and their allies out of iraq, but they also want to live ordinary lives and thats why people went out and voted, whether it be 72% as the americans claim or the more realistic number of 55%. By the way, I would be interested in knowing how many americans or western europeans would have voted under similar circumstances in our own countries. I'd say somewhere between 5 and 0 percent. Sal will contunue to argue that the election was pointless for a variety of reasons, but it seems that over half of Iraqis whose future actually depended on the vote seemed to think otherwise. Also, despite all the flaws our self-appointed resident "expert" has brought up, the iraqi elections seem a lot more free and fair than elections in say, syria or saudi arabia. Even if they were flawed, the elections were a lot better than those held under saddam hussein and will have a lot more impact on the lives of the average iraqi. The only person who seems to recognize this on this forum is bondo.
No the terrorism and violence wont stop the day after the elections....nobody ever made such a claim. It will take a while before Iraq can rise up out the collosal shithole it is in and become a normal functioning state. Even the western european news media is waking up to the fact that the people planting bombs and attacking iraqi police and civilians, along with the occasional american are doing a disservice to the country and are refraining from calling them "rebels, insurgents, etc.", opting for the more accurate label of terrorists. I guess the doubters will keep belittleing every bit of progress that is made by posting links to articles about continued violence....people really need to understand that this isnt about the US scoring PR  points, but about a country trying to get back to normal after more than three decades of bullshit.

So what you are saying is that western european media, believed the bombers DID Iraq a service? I never noticed that. Is it so far fetched that the Iraqi insurgents are opposing America due to historical evidence? The arabian community might be pissed off because of the way you help Israel in everything. They might be pissed off because of the way you treated Afghanistan when Soviet pulled out. Do you even wonder why they don't trust you? Your president blunders out something about a "crusade against evil" and you don't think the middle eastern countries are going to react negativly? This issue is most likely not only about Iraq, but the way America is doing what they want, not caring about anything but their own ppl. Just because we see things differently, dosn't mean we are pro terrorists. Perhaps your media is making you blind to the truth, ever stopped to think about that?

I noticed once on an American forum a person saying: "These damn Europeans don't know what it means to be an American". Here is a newsflash for ya: "WE DON'T WANT TO!!"

Brutha,
Your first mistake is to simply assume that I am American: Nothing I wrote in my post suggests that. "you start with an illogical premise and proceed perfectly logically to an illogical conclusion" (I don't like Rumsfeld much, but that quote is dynamite). I'm actually half-american, half-european, spent the majority of my life in Europe and am currently living in its center. I neither watch fox news, nor do I vote for Bush. What I do think, however, is that european opinion towards Iraq is shaped much more by a dislike for the US and its policies than a genuine understanding of what is best for Iraq and its people. And this is reflected in the media, when the terrorists are depicted as 'rebels/insurgents/freedom-fighters' who are simply fighting against the occupation of their country. Lets assume that there are 200,000 people fighting the americans. Do you think that this reflects the will of a country of 25 million better than the millions who chose to vote on sunday?
My media is making me blind to the truth? I dont know how to take this. For one thing, much of "my media" is european. Ever stop to think that just as american media tends to bend things towards one side of the arguement for ideological reasons, a lot of the media in europe does the same thing-just in the other direction. My guess is no, that you never even thought about looking at your media sources critically.
I am not a bush supporter and I think that much of the aftermath of the iraq war was dealt with very poorly, which is why we are in this situation today. But I believe that in order to make the best of the current situation, you have to recognize that the people planting bombs and attacking police and US soldiers in iraq don't want the same thing for the country as the majority of iraqis, who, although they arent planting bombs or killing people, have hopes, dreams and aspirations for their country as well. You obviously didnt understand what I meant by this despite quoting it:
 

Well, first off I'll have to apologise for being wrong, and jump to conclusions here. What you wrote made me assume you were living in the U.S.

My post was directed toward you as an American so yes, therefore I start with an illogical premise. However, when you say that the european public oppinion is shaped by the dislike for US and its policies, do you think that the US policies in Iraq is correct and the european oppinion was wrong? Not that we will ever get that answer. Do I think that 200,000 insurgents reflect a population of 25 million? No, but they represent a lot more than 200,000. To believe that these 200,000 are all that are opposed to the occupation is being blind. The problem is this, when there is so much general distrust towards the current administration, that 65 % of the sunni population decides to stay away from the election, something is wrong.

When it comes to the media in europe. 2 things. I question everything in the media, I never trust only one source and I watch CNN in addition to BBC and other norwegian news sources.

Again, it seems that you assume that only 200,000 are opposed to the occupation. I agree in that most of the population most likely want peace, but is it so far fetched that these insurgents may have supporters that exceed millions of ppl? Perhaps they want to build up their country their own way, and not being told by the U.S. how to do it?

I believe that 200,000 people believe they can get the americans out by staging violent attacks on the iraqi police/national guard and US troops, without any concern about how many iraqi civilians are killed in these attacks. I also believe that several million iraqis believe they can get the americans out by voting in a somewhat representative government. Even if you will find a lot of sympathy for the terrorists goals (i.e. getting america to leave) among ordinary iraqis, i doubt you will find a lot sympathy for their methods, since they are the ones bearing the brunt of their violence. I'm appaled at how many european (as well as american and other) anti-war people sympathize with the so called insurgents, when they are the ones preventing the emergence of a peaceful and just society in iraq. They seem far more concerned with making the americans look bad, than with giving the iraqis what we in the west take for granted.

Being anti-war does not mean we sympathise with the insurgents. Personally, I sympathise with the ppl that are suffering as a result of this. I am not speaking up to make America look bad, I am speaking up because I think things are wrong. I am also appaled, but rather at how many Americans who think I hate them for speaking up against them. I personally think things are being handeled the wrong way. I think this election was a farse. I hope I am wrong, but I fear I am right. If this blows up in Americas face, I am not the one to come running forth saying "told ya so", hopefully I can breath easily and say: "GJ, I was wrong".

I don't recall anyone supporting the guerillas, or anything of the like.

Let us be honest, the US does not give a fuck about the people of Iraq, and never has. Our goals in Iraq are to promote our own self interests. This has been repeatedly demonstrated throughout the course of history, from the simultaneous armament of Iran and Iraq in the 1980's that facilitated a war in which more than 500,000 people were murdered, to the 1991 invasion in which the Iraqi populous was devastated by aerial bombardment, not to mention the years of sanctions that claimed the lives of almost a million people.

Ok Saddam was evil, but no more evil than the war criminals which currently occupy the highest offices in America.

The election does give hope to a desolate place, but it holds about as much legitimacy as the 2004 Presidential elections. In other words, they are a farce in which the populous was duped into believing that their vote means something. 

The best thing the United States could do, is get the fuck out of Iraq, and let the Iraqi people figure things out for themselves, Iraq is the cradle of civilization let us not forget. For more check out this article http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/10/28/overstretch/index_np.html

 We have no business being there no matter the lies conjured up by our "Fuhrer".

We are being governed by pathological liars and psychopaths, who find power in exaggerating threats and promoting fear, and don't give a fuck about human life, as long as the DOW Jones is high. The hilarious part of it all is that a majority of the population buys it, just as erosion of support for the nazi war machine did not occur until 1943, after Stalingrad.

 

Abe 2.0
"What I do think, however, is that european opinion towards Iraq is shaped much more by a dislike for the US and its policies than a genuine understanding of what is best for Iraq and its people."

You start from a flawed premise: that the purpose of invading and occupying Iraq was to liberate the country from a dicator and bring democracy. This is implict in your comments suggesting what we are doing is best for Iraq. You know this premise is false. We invaded Iraq with the causus beli of self defence -- stopping Iraq's program of WMD development and utilization as well as severing a major source of Al Quada funding. And as you know, there were no WMDs and Iraq had no credible links to Al Quada. To put it clearer: we invaded because we were told that Iraq actively, currently and directly threated our homeland. Now we are atill dying over there, but the causus beli has been proven false. Instead, the causus beli has been ret-coned into bringing democracy and freedom. But we never signed up for that. And even if we did, we don't support the way it has been executed.

Democracy was not in the cards at the start. At best it was seen as potential benefit of responding to the "Iraq crisis". Basically, we make shit up as we go along. Most of the world has caught onto this.  So you might be able to understand why the Europeans don't believe that what we are doing over there is in Iraq's best interest, and you might understand why they don't like what America has done in general. 

indeed, you confabulate their dislike for our actions with a dislike for us as a people. I think if you put the question to them more susinctly you'll find they still like Americans they just hate what we've choosen to do.

"...anti-war people sympathize with the so called insurgents, when they are the ones preventing the emergence of a peaceful and just society in iraq."

Here you are confabulating again: that the "anti-war" crowd (which I'll happily call the reality based crowd) sympathizes with murderers and anti-American forces and that such forces are preventing the emergence of a peaceful Iraq.

We don't sympathize with them. We don't cheer when another one of our marines is blown to pieces or when local civilians are beheaded. Fuck you for suggesting so. I have a friend in iraq right now and I do not want him coming home in a body bag.

What we do feel, and think, and say, is that we have no business being there. That is reality. We say that you can't bring demcracy at the end of a gun and can't foster freedom while pushing you boot on their neck. That is reality. We think that the insurgancy is a reaction to our actions in Iraq. That is reality. Saying this truth doens't make their actions right, nor does it suggest sympathy with them. But it's reality. We have reaped what we sowed. Violence in response to our incompetent, brutal foreign policy -- a foreign policy alien to our core American values of promoting rights, enacting justice, and promoting freedom yet wrapped in those words just the same.

"But I believe that in order to make the best of the current situation, you have to recognize that the people planting bombs and attacking police and US soldiers in iraq don't want the same thing for the country as the majority of iraqis."

We get it. But that's not what we're responding to. We're responding to the fact that our leaders lied to us, sent our friends to war, got them in the middle of shit and then excepted us to cheer on cue. Well, real Americans are willing to desent when they disagree with the actions of their government. Whether it was fundamentalist politicians on the right during the Clinton years, tearing him down at every moment, or progressives like me, all Americans have the right to say we desent with the actions of our government because our government represents us, directly. And when my government lies us into war, kills tens of thousands of civilians, hundres of our own troops, destroys the world's goodwill for us, replaces one strongman with another, starts chipping away my civil liberties and worse, far worse, uses and promotes the use of torture -- well I don't fucking care what the results are, or what the Iraqis want, or what the right wants -- it's all fruit from the rotten tree. No good can come from evil, no matter how well intentioned, no matter how glorious the endgame.

And so to appologists like you I say crawl back into your hole. Quit sniping at us while we try to take our country back from evil and devistation. Back from those who would appoint an attorney general who issued rules that condoned torture, back from those who would appoint a Sec of State who failed to defend our country from terrorist in 2001 when her role was national security advisor and failed to stand up for the truth during the march to war, and back from those who think that war is good, that killing is fun, that freedom rings when you fire you gun, or roll your tanks, or bomb the cities. I fundamentally disagree with them, and you.

Sixhits,
Nice reply.
Let's take it from the top. I never meant to imply that the point of the whole iraq blunder was to free and oppressed nation or remove a dictator. We all know that it was more about perceived strategic interests and the like than about spreading freedom in the middle east. I never assumed that the US government had any noble purpose in invading iraq and nothing i wrote indicated that I think that way. The only premise from which i started was that at this point, we are too far up shit's creek already and that leaving iraq in the situation it is in right now would be as bad for america as it would be for iraq. Cutting our loses and running away at this point would be catastrophic- far worse than any 'threat' there may have been before our invasion. We have dug ourselves a nice hole over there; now its time to figure out how to dig ourselves out. I dont think leaving an entire country to the jihadists is an option worth considering. While there is a good argument to be made about iraq being a mistake (in my opinion, the real mistake was not having any meaningful plan for what to do after we invaded), its slightly besides the point of this debate. I will gladly agree with most of what you say about making shit up as we go along and the whole rational for the war being bullshit. But i think it is besides the point if we are talking about where to go from here. Crossing your arms and saying "i told you so" doesnt help anyone. 
I live in Europe and I can tell you that a lot of people's dislike for americans goes far beyond what is going on iraq or what our government does. All you have to do observe how quickly the debate jumps from iraq to junk food, shitty education, too much TV, obsession with religion and patriotism, to understand that this is about more than foreign policy choices of our government.
As for the prospect of democracy and what you perceive as reality, I suggest you look at post war germany and japan. Plenty of people argued that these societies were fundamentally undemocratic and pointed to their long history of autocratic rule, yet when people there were given a chance to vote for their own governments, the result was rather impressive. I think it would be hard to argue 50 years later that germans and japanese are somehow pre-disposed to be fascists. Maybe it is a bit harsh to argue that antiwar people sympathise with the 'resistance', but when you argue that their actions are an understandable reaction to US policy, it sounds like you empathize with their motives to some extent.  What I was trying to say in my previous posts is that I have more understanding and sympathy for normal iraqis who are trying to make something of the current situation and live normal lives, than for the terrorists. I feel that its the ordinary people whose interests we tend to overlook in favor of some sort of romantic notion that the insurgents are fighting for their freedom from occupation and that they are simply reacting to bad foreign policy on the part of the US. When I watch the news and see these assholes described as resistants, I cant help but think of the millions of people who are simply trying to live normal lives and making a difference by voting in the elections, rather than by blowing up the polling stations. Thats all.
I'm not a bush apologist and i think you misread much of what I am trying to say. I'm not arguing that the invasion of iraq was a noble enterprise or that what we are doing over there is going to change the middle east. I too have freinds who are currently in iraq and I certainly want them to come back in one piece. I feel like puking every time I think about how many kids my age have died over there and how many have come back maimed or wounded. I too think the people in the administration are a  bunch of incompetent ideologues who would rather send more of our soldiers into a shithole like iraq, rather than admit to their mistakes. I dislike bush and his whole gang as much as you and I am glad to see that people are reacting to their incompetence and their stupidity. My vote last November reflected this. At the same time, I realize that there is no way to turn back the clock and reverse past mistakes, which means that we will have to figure out some way of turning iraq into a functioning state and digging ourselves out of this hole. Leaving iraq the way it is now, is a bigger threat to our security than Saddam ever was and you know this as well as me. No matter what we think of the decision to go to war two years ago, this is a time to look forward. We owe this as much to ourselves as to the people in iraq, who put their life on the line by voting last week.

OMG guys!  Have any of you ever heard of "brevity"???  I have neither the time nor patience to read through all of your 1-page replies to everything.  "KISS" from my military days comes to mind in this situation...KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!  Nothing against any of you, but geez, GET A LIFE![/size]

Disclaimer--Anything GhostSniper says or does this week is under the influence of Demerol and Tylox from his surgery....lol[/size]

I would have read it too if only Abe knew the return key and used it more frequently. If the point of yours was the US has to "dig" itself out of Iraq, that isn't acceptable. The US caused a mudslide and has to dig the whole country out, not just a tunnel for the troops to crawl out. Democracy doesn't work in the middle east yet. These people have chosen a path where they will hold their spiritual ties close. They will vote with their group and if they have the most people they will win.

Im surprised no one has posted about Bush's budget yet, that slashes programs across the board. Of course that includes cutting the benefits to your veterans who helped maintain your freedom when it really was in jeopardy.

OMG!! I have to read an entire page of text!
I discover yet another reason why you voted for Bush.

"I never assumed that the US government had any noble purpose in invading iraq and nothing i wrote indicated that I think that way."   
      I felt this was implict in your statements.

"We are too far up shit's creek already and that leaving iraq in the situation it is in right now would be as bad for america as it would be for iraq. Cutting our loses and running away at this point would be catastrophic- far worse than any 'threat' there may have been before our invasion."
      History has proven you wrong at least twice - that's off the top of my head. Vietnam and Algiers. Cutting your losses is the best move when you realize you have nothing left to gain from your current actions. I have no desire to see another generaion of American youths ravaged by war for no strategic gain. 

"We have dug ourselves a nice hole over there; now its time to figure out how to dig ourselves out."
      Leave now. Transports are still easy to come by.

"I dont think leaving an entire country to the jihadists is an option worth considering."
      We would not be leaving them to the jihadists, but rather allowing them to forge their own way. If it is the path of democracy, so be it. If not, so be it. It is not our concern, just as it should never have been.

"While there is a good argument to be made about iraq being a mistake (in my opinion, the real mistake was not having any meaningful plan for what to do after we invaded), its slightly besides the point of this debate."
      No, it is the core of the debate. To flex a gambling term, why throw good money after bad? If the endevour was poisoned from the beginning, which I atest to it was, then we are just wasting lives for lies.

"Crossing your arms and saying "i told you so" doesnt help anyone."
      I'm not suggesting we cross our arms and whine, I'm suggesting we do what is right.

"All you have to do observe how quickly the debate jumps from iraq to junk food, shitty education, too much TV, obsession with religion and patriotism, to understand that this is about more than foreign policy choices of our government."
     All of which relates to abstract Americaness rather than the people. I am British, Canadian and American. I know numerous Europeans and read their papers when in English. I will debate this point: they don't hate "us", they hate "them - the them that corporatises their culture, homogenizes their food sources, and drags nations to war. Ask a few of your neighbors if you will: do they hate America or its people?

"As for the prospect of democracy and what you perceive as reality, I suggest you look at post war germany and japan."
      There are significant - and poorly noted - differences between the peoples of Iraq and those of Nazi Germany and Emperial Japan. i'll focus on Germany. Few remember that Hitler was elected at first, but fewer still remember that war was not something the German people wanted - not against France, not against England, and certainly not against Russia. Even more remarkable, by war' end most Germans had grown to accept that their nation's actions were wrong. They themselves understood. It made it easier to bear the burden of occupation. But more importantly, there was a significant enemy still in the field against the Germans - the Russians - and no German wanted to be rule by them. Further, the cultures of the West vary little in a fundamental way. And, don't forget, they had experienced Democracy during their lifetime. As for Japan, one fact stands out: they revered their Emperor as a God. When they surrendered, and the Emperor said that the lowest American was now higher than the Emperor, there was a implicit understanding that to obey the American occupation was to obey the Emperor. And don't forget this fact as well: both Germany and Japan were free of ethnic strife.

None of these sorts of what I'll call "hand holds" exist in Iraq. There is no hisory of democracy. There is no culural affinity. There is no central and unifying authority who tells them to obey us.

What there is is a wide range of ethic peoples. A wide range of authority figures. There is no "outer enemy" other than us. And thus I argue the best way - the only way - we can help them further is to leave them be. We have become the problem.

"I think it would be hard to argue 50 years later that germans and japanese are somehow pre-disposed to be fascists."
      As for this I argue that fasicism knows no limits of race, culture, or nation. Today America is a neo-facist state -- much like interwar Germany was in the mid-to-late 30's. We can debate this point in detail later, if you want.

"Maybe it is a bit harsh to argue that antiwar people sympathise with the 'resistance', but when you argue that their actions are an understandable reaction to US policy, it sounds like you empathize with their motives to some extent."
      Don't confabulate what something sounds like with what it is. I do understand how the insurgents feel, to a certain extent, because I can imagine what it would be like if some foreign force conquered America tomorrow, arrested Bush, and put thier own strongman in office. As much as I hate Bush I would fight and kill to have him back and at least to kick out the occupiers.

"At the same time, I realize that there is no way to turn back the clock and reverse past mistakes, which means that we will have to figure out some way of turning iraq into a functioning state and digging ourselves out of this hole. Leaving iraq the way it is now, is a bigger threat to our security than Saddam ever was and you know this as well as me. No matter what we think of the decision to go to war two years ago, this is a time to look forward. We owe this as much to ourselves as to the people in iraq, who put their life on the line by voting last week."
      It's much tougher to respond to this, because I agree with you in many ways. I hate to leave Iraq - we've broken it, and we should fix it. But, and this is the key qualifier, those that would do the fixing as the same who broke it -- and we know their agenda. They have no interest in helping those people, they don't care for our soldier's sacfrices. They care for their own warped goals - goals I cannot fathom. But they have done nothing in years of war to illustrate a desire to help them, or us, and let alone the ablity to do so. So how can I advocate actions that are the same as their own? I cannot. And if that means letting Iraq go so be it.We owe the, but are not capable of paying down that debit under our current leadership.


Regards


And the buget? Again, bush shows his compassion for our troops during time of war by slashing their benefits. Oh, and he's playing a shell game by failing to include the cost of the war, of his proposed Social Security destruction, and making his pro-wealthy people tax cuts perminant. What a human failure that man is.

I wholeheartedly agree with Ghost Sniper on this one, good lord. Of course I'm always under the influence of medication, I wouldn't live life any other way  ;D

Yeah i was pretty shocked and disgusted at that as well... Looks like Bush and Blair are going hand in hand down the path of taxing and fucking up the poorest and most in need, while helping and aiding those with to much money and not enough common sense. As for the Cuts in education, and health care .... well im just waiting for somebody to say "doesn't matter because i have private health care and pay for private education"

Its sick, look after the wealthy and powerful, and fuck everyone else up.

You know what I read about in some magazine article? I heard that some people from other countries were coming into iraq just for the heck of it to fight the americans. They weren't even iraqis. it was so gay, they were going in to stop elections, kills u.s. soldiers and all this other crap to ruin everything. It was really gay, they had no business to be there and wanted to fight for the heck of fighting. Too bad the Rainbowsix Team isn't real, they could do some real damage to stop terrorism. Maybe the U.N. should be supported with Tom Clancy's book to find out a way to get all this stuff out of the way. Bloody americans, bloody bush. I could vote but i hated him and karey, lol. I just hope these elections actually do something, but Irag is like a battle ground now, I don't know if these new leaders in Irag will be able to do anything if people are allowing these terrorists to keep entering the country to fight.

Oh yeah, I have another thing to say, sorry for 2 posts in a row. My friend's dad was a sniper  ::sniper:: in desert storm. And he had a lock on Saddam Hussein (spelling?) and all he needed was the command to fire and assassinate him. How gay is that? All this stuff could've been over with a couple years ago, but noooooo.  Oh well, maybe they'll learn to get things out of the way before they get worse from now on.


Combined your posts together.  In the future, click the 'Modify' button, to add on to, or delete stuff, from your post.  Like the flagrent use of the term 'gay', in your first post.

-Lone

I don't think shooting Saddam would have solved the problem - there are 1001 people just waiting to take his place... but then again yes that might have removed one of the fake reasons for invading this time round so point taken.

Raven, I see nothing "gay" about anything you said. It is neither happy nor homosexual. Gay does not mean stupid or bad, unless you are a homophobic prick. You sound like a complete moron using the word in that sense.

Thanx, bronto, i really appreciate that comment =D

However, why do people call each a "fuck", i mean come on it's a verb, not a noun. in other words we all say frases and things that are breaking the real meaning of the word, you're just running off topic by commenting about something small like that. lol.


And you're pissing me off in a hurry because  this is the second time i've had to combine your posts.  Did you just ignore what i said on this very same page, about clicking 'Modify' instead of double posting?  It  really isnt that difficult of a concept. 

-Lone

Why do people call someone an "asshole", Raven?

This isn't quite the course one should take on these forums. Just drop it raven and admit a fault. Anyone who calls anyone a fuck is a idiot. Just like those who are redneck texans still using racial slurs.

Lol mysterio I'm not trying to get too deep into it. Sorry for bring it up  ;D so anyone heard any news about how Iraq is doing now? All I hear about is well... a lot of things on how Bush is going to repay the debt on the war. It's sad how we just got out of debt, and now we attack Iraq leaving the U.S. in a new debt. Maybe Bush and his new rich buddies should chip in some cash  ;D
Maybe, just maybe, we should have a tax for rich people to pay towards our debt i mean, they need to get rid of their money some how. Or even like what britain did, hire rich people to run our armies so they can pay for the troops and all. so the government doesn't have to pay for it. and in the long run we can get rid of some of them when they die. bwahahaha. okay maybe that's stupid, cause it's why brittain lost most of it's wars. And how is Iraq gunna pay us back if we help them rebuild? it just puts us in more debt... I bet, I bet the U.S. is thinking of helping Iraq rebuild itself in return for oil, and the U.S. started all this on purpose and want Iraq to go in more damage and the more that is done the more oil we will get in return and and... yeah.... okay. There's just too many scandals these days. How do we know the new elected leader of Iraq won't be lying to the Iraqies and will became another Saddam? Our world is so screwed up... :(