*DAMN R6 Forum

      Dear Concerned Student:
      I am not allowed in schools.
     
      Sincerely,
      God
 
      How Did This Get Started....?
      -----------------
      Let's see, I think it started when Madeline Murray
      O'Hare complained she didn't want any prayer in
      our schools.
      And we said, OK...
      ------------------
      Then, someone said you better not read the Bible
      in school, the Bible that says "Thou shalt not kill,
      Thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbors
      as yourself,"
      And we said, OK...
      -----------------
      Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our
      children when they misbehave because their little personalities would
      be warped and we might
      damage their self-esteem. And we said, an expert should know what he's
      talking about so we won't spank them anymore...
      ------------------
      Then someone said teachers and principals better
      not discipline our children when they misbehave.
      And the school administrators said no faculty member
      in this school better touch a student when they
      misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity,
      and we surely don't want to be sued.
      And we accepted their reasoning...
      ------------------
      Then someone said, let's let our daughters have
      abortions if they want, and they won't even have
      to tell their parents.
      And we said, that's a grand idea...
      ------------------
      Then some wise school board member said, since
      boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway,
      let's give our sons all the condoms they want, so they
      can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to
      tell their parents they got them at school.
      And we said, that's another great idea...
      ------------------
      Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't
      matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs.
      And we said, it doesn't matter what anybody, including the President,
      does in private as long as we have jobs
      and the economy is good...
      ------------------
      And someone else took that appreciation a step further
      & published pictures of nude children & then stepped further still by
      making them available on the Internet.
      And we said, everyone's entitled to free speech....
      ------------------
      And the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that
      promote profanity, violence and illicit sex... And let's record music that
      encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes...
      And we said, it's just entertainment and it has no adverse effect and
      nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead...
      ------------------
      Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they
      don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers,
      classmates or even themselves.
      ------------------
      Undoubtedly, if we thought about it long and hard enough, we could figure
      it out. I'm sure it has a great deal to do with...
     
      "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW"

Ummm....


I have a conscience.

I know right from wrong.

It bothers me when any decent human being is killed, whether that be a stranger or classmate.

I'm about as far from suicidal as someone can possibly be.




Hooray for this country making stupid generalizations about today's youth. These four statements represent a hell of a lot of my friends, too, not just myself.

I'm 17, if you were wondering.

Oh man, I don't know where to start with the logical fallacies in that one.

Of course nearly every point assumes causation. That is a big problem with conservatives. They think that having abortion be legal causes abortions so they feel if you ban abortion they won't happen. But in reality, poverty and lack of sex education have a greater negative correlation with abortions. It is the case on many things.

Of course your conclusion is ridiculous, "Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, classmates or even themselves." This isn't actually true presently or even close to true...it still remains the very small segment that has any of these problems, just as it always has been.

Oh, and since it was the first point, neither prayer nor the Bible is banned from school. Individual students have the right to both, the administration of the school simply can't force religion. Besides, the Bible can actually be taught in school if it is taught as literature. But I suppose such insignificant things as the establishment clause of the First Amendment isn't important to you?

Blimey i found that all so confusing i don't know quite how to respond but...

Well there is a great mix of Politics and Religeon here which i never know how to address. I think this is what so many people find scarey and difficult to comprehend with American Politics - the mix with Religion.

• I belive Children should be able to make their own choices regarding Religion. They should be able to have access to all beliefs, and they should learn to be open minded and tolerant of those religions. Religion should not be forced or pressured on children but nor must it be denied.

• The issue of Abortions is obvoiusly a very sensitive one. For some Christians abotion goes against their faith. However that should not be forced among those who are not Christian. Many young girls who get accidently pregnant are not capable or able to support a baby. They do not have the means or the maturity. For me i belive that it is both cruel to the Child to force them tobecome a mother at such a young age, but also to the potential baby to have such a yong and inexperienced and immature mother.

• 
we learn from our elders. We learn by copying. by mimicing. Who do we have to blame but ourselves? What example is set by the wars and violence, the corruption and greed and lack of respect for human life that is shown in theis world?


Undoubtedly, if we thought about it long and hard enough, we could figur  it out. I'm sure it has a great deal to do with...
 "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW"

Well i couldn't agre more. Look at Israel and Palestine. Look at Iraq... look at Africa. Look at Afganistan. Look at all the countries and the millions of people who are the victims of conflict, of famine, of human greed and senslesness. We do indeed reap what we sow. And so often these days we seem to be sowing violence and greed.

But what happens when these conflict with the "American way of  Life" ??

I just want to point out to you GhostSniper that we are not alwys that far off in thought.   You are most onto something right here:


The media is responsible, and switching from fox to cnn, or from cnn to NBC or pretty much any other emdia isnt going to help.   Everything from Fox to CNN to Disney to NYT, to GTA, to Tom Clancy have hidden agendas which corrupt the minds of Americans.  Glorifynig violence, teen sex, marital, infidelity,  hate,  and just a general dumbing down of the American mind.

I do completely disagree with the coporal punishment idea.   The idea of committing felony assault on a child to teach them 'disicpline'.   That is outright neanderthal.   May God help ANY person who makes the mistake of laying a hand on my child.

Unless it's under the guise of freedom and democracy, then we offer them college money and reassure ourselves by placing plastic yellow ribbons on the back of our oil gulping SUV's.

Can you explain the significance of this for me?

Did you write this yourself GS?

Now that raises the question, what's worse:

Writing this stuff, or believing in it?

Democracy is not forcing your religion and beliefs on others. Would you allow your children to be forced to read poems from every religion or your daughters forced to wear headscarves. There are freedoms everyone get and that should be respected, without forcing your beliefs on others.

I find this extremely wrong because none of these have caused any normal child to experience a lack of morals.

1. Half of these reasons are religiously motivated close minded statements and I would be very upset if you were to argue that lack of religion or more importantly your religion is the reason for all the world's woes because you are horribly wrong.

2. Hitting children is not an option and maybe you do hit your kids in moderation which is acceptable to you but not everyone is like you and not everyone can discipline their children in moderation. Personally I think you shouldn't abuse your children at all.

3. God forbid we don't force our religion on other people. Worry about your own children because God knows I wouldn't want you near mine.

3. Don't fucking judge me

I am disgusted with the lack of intelligence invested in this

Fixed your text color, so that it's red now.  I assumed that's what you wanted, since you had the start color tag at the beginning of your post.  -Lone

Thx cutie - Haz

Once again GS, you simply close your mind and restate you opinion. Something to consider, there are many other books with much better values than the bible.

DO WE? REALLY? THANKS FOR LETTING ME KNOW WHAT I THINK. This is about 1/4 amusing and 3/4 sickening that you can be so ignorant. Have you met me? Have you ever set foot in my neighborhood? Has it ever occurred to you that not everything your minister tells you before mass about the world is true? I'm an Italian catholic and I realized that a long time ago. Don't ever tell me what I believe and I hope you get exactly what you need a very big reality check because this isn't your country it's ours, the people your so quick to judge. Instead of uniting people you divide them you put up another barrier another step for you to stand on and look down at us with and I'm tired of it. A catholic person has as much capacity for evil as anyone else.

I just want to say something here since I come from a country where Lutherism is a state religion.

1. Christianity in any form is NOT only a belief, but also a set of moral standards which actually apply in most situations

2. Christianity is teached in the schools, but so is most major religions and humanism. Humanism and Christianity are the two that are focused on...equally.

3. Prayers are not required in public schools

4. You don't get critisised by teachers if you choose not to believe, but you are required to know about the religion.

5. There is freedom of religion in Norway, and we have a beautiful mosque here in Oslo.

Either you want it or not, religion is a part of our everyday life and is also a part of our cultural heritage. Most religions also share a common set of ethical standars, unless you are a fundamentalist..but that goes all ways. I am currently a student of the history of religion(both ancient and modern) with a goal of teaching this in our equivalent of the American high school. I do not believe in the mythical parts of any religion, but I find the moral standards and their philosophies interesting. I do believe that children of any religion and race should be tought about religion and not led to believe that religion is a bad thing. Religion is only a bad thing when ppl stop believing and start knowing. Thats when they take it too far.

p.s. Our prime minister is a priest, and the leader of the Christian peoples party, but he still isn't preaching, and neither is his party.

Brutha, all you said there as positives do not rely on religion to be obtained.

It dosn't? How cool. The thing is, this is what kids are teached in our schools, and is it really that bad that children learn these things?

Im with everybody else that's posted on this.  Im not a lacking in conscience, i know right from wrong, and very clearly so.  I find the idea of taking someone elses life abhorid, and the only reason i can ever imagine taking someone elses life, is when it is unavoidably necessary.  

I personally find it insulting that you would believe this of me, and the people of my age group that i know.  There were only a handful of less than admirable students at my highschool, the rest, i have every confidence will turn into upstanding citizens of this country, get married, be good husbands and wives, and raise fantastic children.  Not become wife beating, drug addicted, murdering thugs.  That you believe this of my friends, i also find personally insulting.

When the incidents at the Abu Ghirab pison occured, you vehemently spoke out against anybody on these forums who believed the entire military was that way.  You said it was just a few bad apples giving the entire service a bad name, and putting it in a bad light.  Well perhaps you should see this  generation in the same way.  School shootings, use of hard drugs, rape, murder, all those things are commited by a very small minority of my, our, generation, not by the overwhelming majority.  

Correlation is not causation.

Is it really that bad if we don't?

Brutha: If they are forced to know these things then yes. If they are told it often enough they will believe it. Forcing people to learn about a certain religion won't let them choose for themselves what they want, not what the voting public wants from them.

Don't know, I am just speaking of how it is here and asking a question.  and for Myst. To enhance the understanding of other religions I believe it is. But thats me, and guess thats why I am taking courses on it. And, teacher are not preaching at school anymore. That ended some time ago.

I don't think it's a bad thing but America is about having choices and when you tell someone that what they believe is wrong and tell them that they shouldn't have a choice in what to believe it angers me. This might sound very cliché but life is about choices and when you justify taking these choices away and want to reinstate rules that take away these, that scares me, it truly scares me.

Ghostsniper for 2 seconds flip your viewpoint and try to debate the otherside of it. Just try and see where we are coming from.

<applauds hazard>

Here in Canada the only belief expectation of us in school is to stand for Oh Canada every morning. We are influenced to be good people, but not through the use of any bibles or other religious symbols. Oh and yes we do have courses for religious studies. Brutha, the picture you've drawn is seeming to resemble a type of footwear recently popularized. I thought you said people were REQUIRED to know things about religion, and implied it was due to the Christian People Party.

 Many of us, huh?  So how many?  You seem pretty sure of yourself, so put a number on it, what percentage, of this generation find all those things you listed as ok?  If you're going to tell me you cant find an accurate number, because it's impossible to poll all of us, and get accurate answers, then how do you know 'many' of us are that way?  Just from hearsay?  From the news, which you yourself acknowledge is biased?  Hearsay is exagerated, the news -focuses- on the negative elements of society and human nature.  It doesnt give the full picture.  That is the simple truth.  So if you dont get your vast knowledge about this generation from what people you know tell you, or the news, where do you get it from?  And what makes you think that you can come here, and tell us the kind of people we are?  That you fought in Kosovo?  Wrong.  That you're older than us? Doubly wrong.  That you are richer than we are?  You know where this is going.  

Brutha, the main problem in the US is that they aren't wanting to simply teach about religion. The people in the US who are so adamant about getting religion in the schools are fundamentalist evangelicals who have an exclusivist view of religion, that only their religion is right (I'm a Lutheran of Norwegian heritage and I've been told I'm not a Christian by evangelicals.) While I object to GS's premise that somehow you need religion to have values, as secular ethical logic shows that theft and any number of other things are wrong, I wouldn't object to a role of religion in schools if it was in the form of teaching about World religions and about tolerance rather than teaching that Christianity is right and that other religions and science is wrong. Knowing about religion is immensely important in this world since it guides so much in the way of cultural clash and socially explains much.

Heh, no, it's not due to that party, sorry if you thought that. We have always been required to LEARN about religion, but the schools are also required to TEACH and not PREACH. Two very different things. We are given the choice and Non believers are equal to believers. But, religion is there in our society and thats why I think ppl need to learn about it to better understand eachothers perspective.

Brutha, I think you got the misconception we are talking about education about religion, we have education about religion on occasion here too. Bondo was very accurate in what he said. Also, do they not teach you tolerance and stuff down there?

Thats what is meant with seeing the other perspective of things ;)  So yeah, definatly. Ethics is also teached alongside with religion. It's not a matter of forcing religion upon kids, but more teaching them understanding. Religion is tought just like history and other subjects.

I wasn't aware history was tough. The worst subject religion already has too much influence on is science. Evolution should be taught!

True, and it is. Creationism isn't a main focus in the religion classes, but a main focus in biology. Oh they learn the stories, but it's not tought as the truth.

P.s. Only two countries in this world is ruled by priests....Iran..and Norway...But we do not have WMD'S, so don't come knocking on our door.

Ah! But you have OIL!  Youll be hearing from us soon...

 ::shot:: ::rambo:: ::uzi::

 ::hot::

EDIT-  And no ammount of lutefisk can scare us off!!

DAMN YOU!!!!

Speaking of WMD, why hasn't anyone posted a thread about the Bush administration admitting there are no WMD in Iraq?

Becasue it would be unpatriotic? Or just the views of a small minded Liberal who had no moral values?

Was that in reply to my question? The person who said it may be small minded, but Bush is no liberal.

Do you have empirical evidence of this? Call me crazy, but if the government chronically lies, commits mass murder, and shows utter contempt for human life in general, what message does this send our children?


I would take offensive to such a statement, but I no longer believe in the pre-packaged labeling of people. It's bullshit, designed to keep us divided, and thus weak in the light of authoritarian rule. Also, if I were a "liberal", i would be giddy, because the world seems to be a filthy place with no morals and even less values (ie. the U.S. government).

Governments by nature are evil. Having values taught by our government is fucking looney. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you want the government, through public schools, to teach young people values. I find that a bit hypocritical coming from a self-proclaimed "conservative". Does conservatism not profess less government intervention in our lives?

The responsibility for teaching morals and values lies with the parents and the parents alone. Schools are there to teach kids to read, write and wipe their asses.

Even more hilarious, is the fact that Oliver North of all people wrote that. Oliver North was the White House official that was most directly involved in secretly aiding the contras, selling arms to Iran, and diverting Iran arms sales proceeds to the contras. He was indicted on 16 felony counts, and convicted of 3; accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents. Quite the pillar of moral superiority.

About the WMD's, not too big of deal, nowadays lying about a blow job gets more congressional scrutiny than lying about a war. Boosh is happy though because infrastructure rebuilding contracts and the construction of 12 permanent military bases are well under way, and thus a strategic victory for U.S. imperial desires.

Everybody lies.  Even those "little white lies" that you don't count is still lying.  If you tell me you don't lie, well, I don't believe you.  Cheating...sure, not everyone cheats, but I would venture to say that a good percentage of the population does.  If nobody cheated, then why would we need a rule book so big filled with things about cheating?  Stealing....oh, I think I have pretty much everyone on this.  Every person who has ever downloaded a song illegally, has pirated a piece of software, or made illegal copies of music or software has stolen.  So, although there is probably a very very small percentage of people who have never stolen anything, I am just about the most honest person on earth who would never even think of stealing, and I can tell you that I've done some of those things in the past....so even I am guilty of it.  Pre-marital sex.  Come on, can anyone here honestly tell me they don't think that 99 percent of everyone in the world is getting laid before they get married?  And now we get to adultery.  I included this one because I just this morning read an article about how one-third of all men, and one-fourth of all women have admitted to having extra-marital intercourse during their marriage.  And the article went on to say that the numbers are probably much much higher because most people are unwilling to talk about it.

So, that is what I'm basing this on.  I'm not saying I'm any better than anyone else, because I have done most of these things myself.  I'm just saying that the moral/value system in this country, and around the world, has gone downhill dramatically in the last 30 years.  And it was during this same time period that the Bible was removed from our very existence by radical left-wing activists (the ACLU rings a bell).[/size]

So everybody lies, including yourself.

It sounds a lot like you have at least once, in some way, cheated, i mean sure, everybody has at least once, right?

And you freely admit you have had pre-marital sex.

So that puts you 3 for 5 of the things you listed that 'many' of us dont have a problem doing, because we're morally debased slobs of a lost generation, because the bible isnt in schools anymore.

Well, consider this.  Adultery happened, and is frequently, historically, documented in many instances, centuries before our nation came into being.  And tell me this, what were the ages of those people that have admitted to having extra-marital affairs, in the article you mentioned?  Were they in your generation, or ours?

Stealing? Come on, dont tell me stealing is anything new to the scene of human nature.  Theft was common place, again, for centuries upon centuries all across the globe long before the U.S. came to exist.  So saying that stealing is bad, true.  Saying that stealing is something that is caused by the removal of the bible from public schools, uh, not so much.

Keep in mind, in both my points about people commiting adultery and theft in previous centuries, this people were frequently religious, and religiously schooled, knew the bible well, and it was a very big part of their life, and it was taught, preached, in schools, and yet these things still happened.

What im getting is that the first three of the things you listed, lying, cheating, and stealing, you base your assumption that 'many' of us have done this, off of your own life experiences, no hard fact, no real numbers, just guesstimation and assumption.  Pre-marital sex, again no hard number provided, and no evidence to back it up.  And adultery, taken off of a single survey you saw in your newspaper, and again i remind you that all news sources, you said it yourself, put a spin on things.  Plus, i extremely doubt that the numbers that were in that poll were of people in the teenage age bracket, since most of us arent even married yet, therefore incapable of adultery of any form.


You know, it's funny that you say that, since nobody is stopping you from reading the bible, and it's obviously still very much a part of your existence, and the existence of a vast majority of Americans.

Ghostsniper, since you profess to be a Christian man,  will you please tell me how you resolve the issue of murder  and how it contradicts the commandent sent by God to Moses "Thous Shalt Not Kill" especially in the case of Iraq where the US has killed thousands of non-combatants.

For me the issues duscussed here seem very relevant.   As an athiest, who was raised as a beleving methodist christian and who did bible studies in a Methodist and Baptist (for a short period) environment and then having spent two years in a catholic elementary school I also worry the the fall of religion in thous country is leading to a moral crisis within the country.  The Pope has also acknolwedged this.

However I am not religious and I do not beleive in a GOD, primarily because it seem unlogical, but also because of the contradictary nature of religious zealots, who preach one thing and act the opposite.

"Thou Shalt Not Kill" is the most obvious example, and I would truly like to understand how Christians who support war resolve this apparent contradiction in their minds.

no more blood for oil, we got enought battles to fight on our own soil.

Lies... sometimes

Cheating... no

Stealing... no (Peer to Peer is legal in Canada)

Premarital sex... against your religion not mine.

last one, N/A

NEXT!

What about anal myst? I know thats a sin ;)

Please get back to me with your catholic priest numbers, I mean the people you trust are the people who are the real cheaters, they cheat on their own God.

You may claim to be the most honest person in the world but it's too bad your not honest with yourself about the shit that comes out of your mouth.

God himself told his chosen people to make war on people in the Old Testament.  Killing during war is not the same thing as murder.[/size]

I agree with that. During WWII the priests gave the many of the soldiers absolution for the sins they were about to commit in the name of their country.

Funny how one person cough* (GhostSniper) can hold his on against a bunch of.... well I'm not going there i would say more, but unfortunately I'm not so nice. Plus i don't want to put any more flames in BFG's eyes .  8)

You see that is one of the things that scares me about religion, Christian preists telling their soldiers God will accept them if they kill in battle.   Muslim Clerics telling their beleivers Allah will accept them if they fight the enemy.   The "chosen" jews who think they are doing Gods will by killing people and reclaiming land they say God gave them.   I don't know, seems like a bunch of bullshit that politicians use to manipulate the people.

Warning sign:   If anyone tells you it is OK to kill another human being, you might want to get a second opinion.

It seems to me like the people who claim to value values, lack values themselves.   Ghostsniper, illustrated violence and murder as things he thought were degrading values, yet at the same time he thinks violence and murder is OK, sometimes.

My roommate is another example.   She is hot by the way.   She claims to be a person of values but she is often sleeping around with men she meets at a bar.

My college professor was also a Baptist Preacher with 2 children.   He was always very judgmental of the students, chastising them for drinking a drop.   Then he fucked a student, got her prenant, left his wife of 30 years, and abandoned his kids to start a new family with the girl who was 25 years younger than him.  He also stole his wifes life savings and blew it on his new girl.

In my experience it is those who arent professing their values that seem to be the most morally straight.

That is precisely the justification the terrorists use. They are fighting a war by their definition.

The stats I've seen say at least 95% of people have sex before marriage...25% of the US is evangelicals who are so anti-premarital sex. How the hell can you blame liberals for this? You have a log in your eye.

Of course I think this whole opposition to premarital sex insults God. You think god cares about marriage. You think he goes, "oh, Britney married him and then had sex with him? I guess it is ok now even though she doesn't love him." But no, those people who are truly in love are damned if they have sex before marriage. I hold God to a higher respect that he looks inside of us and can judge us on more than legal documentation.

You want to know how much the bible has been removed from our existance? The daily newspaper here, circulation 95,000, delivered a copy of the New Testament in the Sunday paper a few weeks back (it was a paid advertisement.) Yeah, it is so damned hard to get your hands on a bible these days and read it. I've got three of my own, there are about ten in the house. I can take it off the bookshelf and read it anytime I want.

Ok, what is morality? what are the rules of morality? Those rules are pushed a little further for every generation. I could say I am a person that never broke any of the moral codes in the bible(I would be lying but lets pretend). Yet I drive my car to work, alone, everyday. In my country I would be viewed as a person of low moral stature, since I polluite and only think of myself(taking public transportation would have only cost me 15 more minutes). The moral codes of a society is not set by a 2000 year old book, at least not anymore. And to be honest, I think the period of enlightenment in the 18th century put a stop to that(at least in Europe, but I know some were influenced in America too). The moral codes are set by every generation and may differ from country to country.

Have you been to Britain, or Norway, GS? Notice a funny thing? Police here are not armed. Yet, in my country we have female Bishops, open discussions that do not get heated about homosexuality within the church(we have gay priests). We do not however, allow gay marriages yet, but they are allowed to enter "parnterhood" which gives them scimilar rights. Downloading of music occurs. We get the same music as you(though not all, but I am so tired of "gansta rap"). We watch the same movies. I am sure that adultry is being done as I write this, and that goes for premarital sex. We do what most americans do(except vote for Bush), everyday. Yet our crimerate is lower than yours.

What worries me is that giant fines was given in America for showing a seccond or two of an ugly, saggy breast(Janet Jackson at the superbowl). A comedian here showed his penis on prime time TV and all he got was a lot of phonecalls from desperate women. The rest of us just laughed at it. You restrict what you can say in your music since it's deemed inproper language, and you have a strick sensorship on radio as well. What you do have that we don't is that in some states you have drive thru liquer stores. Your constitution gives you the right to bear arms, and in some states you can even carry them openly. What kind of message does that send? There are a lot of weapons in Norwegian homes too, but these are for hunting and sport only. Yeah, you can say that our population is small, and not as diverse as in America, but I think that your government goes about it the wrong way, and you suffer more from it than if guns were not allowed.

Oh we have had this discussion so many times before and I just wish to end this post with saying that I think at least 90 percent of the Americans are decent people(perhaps even more). Yes, even GS. But I don't think the problems you have can be traced back to the lack in christian moral values and the absence of the Bible in schools. As someone so nicely pointed out earlier, parents have a responsibility to raise their own children(though the schools have a responsibility of following up on that), but rather a misguided belief in freedom, you have it, but in my view it's the wrong freedom. In every society, every member of it has to give up some freedom, to have freedom at all. It's the way of things.

Again, my oppinion and you are free to disagree if you wish.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
That was hilarious, i hope the new forum will have lots of these. Dude, ghostsniper is doing what he always: Repeating himself over and over, flexing his stupidity muscle and ignoring every intelligent post, by the poor folks who havent realized that there is no poin to attempting rational debate with a self-inflating, proselytizing, southern baboon, such as GS. I still try sometimes myself.

Gs, it's all nice and well that you like your religion, but all that stuff about freedom in the US constitution means that we don't attempt to force our religion on others. And that's one of the best things about; it's a shame that you don't realize that, despite all the patriotism you profess every time you post on these boards. People can make up their minds by themselves and do whatever they think is best for them. At the same time, i think they could have a class in schools for morality and ethics in a philosophical way (though they would have to talk about religion too obviously). The whole point of public education is that it is public, so send your kids to a religious school if you wan't them to be educated with religious values.

And the author of this is Ollie North? That's kindof ironic because he was a bit of a liar and a cheater himself. He disgraced his country and lied to everyone congress, everybody.

Hm, that defense seems familiar...from the Nuremburg Trials perhaps?

I do it because I like to read myself write not to change GS  ;D

Spike, it does sound like Nuremburg, but the Iran-Contra thing was simply a legal issue (AFAIK), not a war crime, and that makes it vastly different. Not that it suddenly makes Ollie North a wonderful, brilliant man.

Oh, I am aware of the different circumstances, I'm just pointing out how that excuse can be used to justify most anything. Of course, most of the Nazi's were convicted and executed.

In the Iran-Contra Affair, United States President Ronald Reagan's administration secretly sold arms to Iran, which was engaged in a bloody war with its neighbor Iraq from 1980 to 1988 (see Iran-Iraq War), and diverted the proceeds to the Contra rebels fighting to overthrow the leftist and allegedly democratically-elected Sandinista government of Nicaragua. Those sales thus had a dual goal: appeasing Iran, which had influence with militant groups that held several American hostages in Lebanon and supported bombings in Western European countries, and funding a guerrilla war aimed at aborting Nicaraguan independence from US hegemony.[ for more info see link at bottom of page]

Both transactions were contrary to acts of Congress, which prohibited the funding of the Contras and the sale of weapons to Iran. In addition, both activities violated UN sanctions.


Yes sounds just like it dosn't it. And this is where i get scared about this use of the word Patriotism. It seems to be used as some kind of justification for someones actions - If your Country does somthing then you cannot question it without being "unpatriotic"... So do morals not matter in this situation GS? All i can see throughtout the argument in this thread are constant double standards - be it "love thy Neighbour" but blow the fucker up"  be it the disgust at greed etc - but you have to be able to drive your SUV because its your right... and so forth.  Oh and its ok to sell arms that will be used to kill thousands of people beacuse your being Patriotic?

Morals and Ethics are not souly found in Christianity Ghostsniper, and im sure your not going to argue that. In fact given the Fundamentalist views of some Christians it would be very easy to argue the opposite - that there is an undermining of Morals and Ethics. Let me discuss some of todays healines with you in todays paper -

"America's human rights abuses have provided a rallying cry for terrorists and set a a bad example to regimes seeking to justify their own poor rights records, a leading independant watch dog said yeserday.
The torture and degreading treatments of prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay have undermined the credibility of the US as a defender of human rights and opponent of terrorism. The New York-based Human Rights watch says in its annual report.
"The US goverment is less and less able to push for justice abroad because it is unwilling to see justice done at Home".

Yesterdays scathing report argues that the US has weakened its own moral authority at a time that authority is most needed, "Iin the midst of a seeming epidemic of suicide bombings, beheadings, and other attacks on civilians and concombatants."
"When the United States disregards human rights, it undermines that human rights culture and thus sabotages one of the most inportant tools for dissuading potential terrorists. Instad, US abuses have provided a new rallying cry for terrorist recruiters, and the pictures from Abu Ghraib have become the recruiting posters for Terrorism, Inc.

The White house secretly persuaded Congress to overturn legislation passed last month by a 96-2 Senate vote that would have inposed restrictuions on extreme interrogations methods.

Also in the British media recently has been the good news that finally the British have been able to secure the release of the remaining "detainees" at Guantanamo Bay" - they are bing released withought charge... after four years they are not being charged with a single offence. Two of them will seek action against the US with alagations of Tourture and widespread abuse.

But this all comes back to exactly what you said at the start You Reap what you Sow GhostSniper. Which makes no sense given you don't seem to be disagreing with what is being sown by the US goverment... but you don't like what is being reaped.

Lastly here is some information on the iran-Contra scandel for those that don't know (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair)

Yeah i couldn't help but laugh as well abe. I gues maniac just didn't read anything except GS's Posts.

Ghostsniper you have failed to answer any of my questions or address any of my points. This isn't a debate it's just stupidity and ignorance in written form.

Enjoy your "intellectual" debate because this is far from intellectual conversation and far from a debate.

Yeah man and Hitler's people were just doing their jobs.   That doesnt make it right.