*DAMN R6 Forum

Yesterday Asia was struck by an underwater quake that started the tsunami that would kill over 20000 people. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/asia.quake/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/asia.quake/index.html) In 2001 terrorists would use aircrafts to kill 4000 Americans. Both are catastrophies, but one is somewhat worse than the other. During the days after 9/11 the sports events called Champions league were postponed to respect the dead. Footballers said: "In times like these, our sport just don't seem to important". A noble attitude which I support. That was a man made catastrophy. Now a tsunami washed away a lot in Asia and has killed more than 20000. Yesterday the foorball rounds in Britain were played as scheduled. As I understand it, there were some mathces played in the NBA as well. So what about these two incidents make them so different since we react so differently? Is the loss of life? More is merrier? Hardly. So is it the fact that one was man made? Should it be different? So a person killed by another person envokes more sympathy then one killed by the forces of nature. I choose not to belive that(I hope mankind is better). Here is what I think is going on. America=West=prosperity. Asia=east=third world. In fact, people from Europe and America are worth more to us than Asians. Way to go people. In fact, here in Norway the newspapers are full of "10 Norwegians dead", while in a smaller headline: "20000 killed". So in fact, 10 Norwegians are worth more than 20000 asians. Cnn had the same thing last night. "Only 2 Americans dead". It disgusts me. People disgust me. Our values disgust me. I hope this world goes down in flames, because humanity is not worth the effort anymore.

"So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth."

Eric Idle, "The galaxy song"

20,000 and likely to rise higher and higher. All i can say fortunatly is that the news was totally dominated by these events - programmes were cancelled and we had extra news bulletins. There was also very little information on the number of britains killed - But like brutha points out the very concept that people hold lives as more inportant or valuable is sickening.

I doubt there will be huge budgets and a fight against these occurences or systems put in place to help the hundreds of thousands affected by this disaster.

     I sincerely hope that my steadfast and legally elected officials quickly take action to prevent such an occurrence as this from happening again: an amendment to the PATRIOT Act to tighten America's borders against the subhuman tsunami menace, supported by our allies ally so that we can deny these tsunamis a safe harbor anywhere in the world, in God's name.

     Brutha, when you consider any sizeable group of humans, one fact leaps clearly to mind: god DAMN are they stupid. Not to mention petty, shortsighted, nearsighted, sheep-like, and did I mention stupid? Unfortunately, it is the way it is, and I for one don't see any way to change it.

22,000 and still rising.

been reading in the papers that they excpect about 100000......

A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a million tragedies

Beefy i would love to be able to blame this 100% on human error - perhaps it could finally be a sign big and clear enough for some world leaders to understand that changes have to be made. However as far as im aware this Earthquake was quite simply a reminder of how small and petty we are on a earth that contains more power than we can conceive.

Yes i agree.

This quake was strongr than all of the last 5 years worth of Earth quakes put together.

Other than a terrible catastrophe I suppose i would like to think of it as a reminder to us that we are very very very small and insignificant, and that we do not have the right to do what we want becasue we want to - whether we believe it is our god given right or not.

I would like to go on record and dispute that the claim that this was an earthquake.   Seismographic measurements are not necessarily indication of an earthquake.   In fact there are many manmade possibilites which can influence the seismograph.   With that said I do beleive this to be a occurance in nature, but not necessarily an earthquake.   I think what is more likely is that an asteroid has struck the earth (which is covered mostly by water).   Because the earth's Surface is mostly water, and because we have a significant atmoshere which sheilds us from most meteorites (A stony or metallic mass of matter that has fallen to the earth's surface from outer space) generally we aren't exposed to their damaging effects like have occured on the moon and mars.  Other celestial masses have been struck by asteroids also.   One simply needs to look at the surface of the moon to see that debris in space can cause enourmous damage when it strikes.   One simply needs to look up into the night sky (especially during a meteor shower) to realize the frequency by which the earth is struck by space debris.   Normally this debris, known as a meteor, burns up within  the atmosphere.   However when it is large enough it can cause a crater in a farm field.   When something really large strikes it could cause catostrphic damage, Earth uakes etc...   When a large asteroids lands in an ocean would defintely cause large tidal waves and most likely notable seisomographic activity.   Throw a large rock into a pond and see what the result is, now imagine this in a gigantic scale.   This is what Hollywood has always imagined, and what we have always feared.  That is my theory.

The reason for there not being any plan prepared for this kind of incident is that a quake like this happens every 700 years. They never thought it would happen now. Guess that this terrible thing gave us one heavy wake-up-call.

Just clicked on to a newspaper here. http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2004/12/27/418679.html (http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2004/12/27/418679.html)  For those that do not know Norwegian, there is a link at the bottom, where a Swede has filmed the seccond wave that struck Phuket. There is no dying ppl on it, so it's safe to watch. But it's still quite terrible.

Holy shit...

The scary part is that video doesn't show anything in comparison to what actually occurred in many other places.

I do i do! (Do i get a cookie?)

On a more serious note, it's kind of chilling to watch that video, or any video, of a tsunami, especially that one, making landfall in a populated area because you know that as you watch hundreds of people are (or were) dying, you just cant see it in the picture.  Not sure if anybody else has heard this, but some members of the U.N have been calling the U.S and other nations initial responses 'stingy'.  Having had no experience with disastor relief efforts, im not sure if the aid that's been promised so far is stingy or not, but even from seeing a few of the images from over there...combined with the total loss of life (now above 25,000 confirmed dead), it's going to take a -lot- of time and manpower to even start to try and clean this up.  

GS - Im not trying to pick a fight, but i think using that quote from Stalin is a bit flawed, in that 9/11 was as we all know, the loss of thousands of lives.  Going strictly from Stalin's quote, a statistic. I believe Brutha's point was that why should 4000 deaths stop world-wide sporting events for days, weeks - even, when the death of 20,000 should be neigh second page news in any place but south-east Asia?  To take it one step further, if the same thing happened off the coast of, oh, i dont know, California/L.A. area, a massive underwater E.Q followed by a series of Tsunamis, resulting in 20,000+ dead, i believe the reaction would be something akin to 9/11, but much stronger.  Maybe because in 9/11 we were attacked, not simply in the wrong place at the wrong time...but i dont think that entirely negates all that i've just said.

And Sal, any doubts of whether it was E.Q. or Meteor would have been ruled out within 30-40 minutes of the fault breaking, because once the shockwave did its full circut of the earth's interior, and was detected by ultra-sensative (by ultra-sensitive i mean they detect movements on the atomic scale) seismographs scattered all about the earth's surface, an innordinant ammount of information can be gleaned from just the ground tremors alone.  A meteor wouldnt  generate shockwaves which have the same characteristics of E.Q waves (P-Wave, S-Wave, & Surface wave).  As joyously apocolyptic an idea a meteor impact may be, this wasnt it.

And just a point of interest, the U.S. has a fault that's even bigger than the one that just broke in S.E Asia, which runs all the way from northern California, through Vancouver Island, Canada, and up.  What's left of the Feralon (now known as Juan De Fuca) plate being subducted under North America.  The fault breaks once every 500 (+/- 200 years).  Estimates pin the E.Q as a 9.0+ that will last for 15 minutes or longer.  The best part, is that i live -RIGHT- ontop of it.  The main faultline doesnt run right through my backyard, but about 200 miles off-shore, though the last time the fault broke, the north end of the island i live on (12x2 miles, roughly) was lifted over 20 feet straight up, so im not worried, im pretty sure ill feel it if it breaks in my lifetime.  Basically, anybody that lives in the Pacific Northwest...get set for one hell of a wild ride if this thing breaks.  

A cookie for you lonewolf. Good job. The saddest part of this is that I have to agree with GS quote here. These lives are just another statistic in our flawed society.

44,000.

You forgot the invasion of Iraq and the murder of thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq.
Estimates of as many as 17,000 have been made http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ and since the US government doesnt care to count do a body count on the civilians they have killed, IBC is the most valid authority.

As for Dafur, you might ask yourself what legitimate interest the United states had in funding and supporting the rebel movement in Sudan which ultimately lead to the harsh action being taken agaisnt the rebels by the recognized government of Sudan.

Why the US supported the Kosvo Rebel movement inside Yugoslovia, which lead to harsh action being taken against them by teh Yugoslov government.

Why the US supported the Kurd and Shiite Movements in Iraq, which lead to harsh action being taken agains them by the Iraqi government?

Why the US supported the South Vietnamese which lead feirce conflict and civil war whcih ultimately lead to a US defeat in Vietnam.

Why the US supported Israeli occupation of the Palestinian land, maintained a large military presence in Saudi Arabia and supported crippling santions on Iraq, which were used by lead AlQueda to justify the harsh action taken against the US in the form of the 911 attacks.

Why the US supported supported the oppressive Batista Givernment in Cuba which ultimately lead to the overthrow of the Cuban government in a  revolution lead by Fidel Castro.

Why the US supported oppressive Jean Birtrand-Arisitde Government in Haiti which ultimately lead to a revolution in Haiti and the forcible expulsion of the Haitian President.

You see a pattern here right?   I mean I agree with you when it comes to natural disasters, these events are hard to comprehend, but when it comes to man-made catastrophes, the explanation is really quite simple and easy to grasp.    It seems that people around the world have a universal dislike for the American propensity to stick its long reaching nose in other peoples affairs.   And a few of those people actually to stand up to us?   The fultile nerve!

SanitarySal while i don't agree with your theory on the Quake in Asia, that last post has made me want to give you a big hug, and say thankyou a million freaking times.... Unfortunatly our current British goverment seems to be thinking along the same warped lines as the Bush Administration and co, all i can say is there are a lot of people across the world who are very unhappy with what is being done in the name of 'democracy' and 'freedom'. I said before how these kind of disasters show just how small and insignificant we are, but on the flip side, every individual counts, every difference every change we makes adds up - so when i walk to and from University everyday, recyle my rubbish, use low energy lightbulbs, write to my MP's repeatedly to complain about the British Goverments actions, participate in demonstrations or rallys, give what little money i have towards charitys trying to fight the suffering and pain that we cause, or whatever its making a difference - because i know that little tiny bit is being added up to somthing much bigger.  

And for that we are all responsible, every time we get in the car,  watch the news, read the paper, interact with the world and accept and ignore or react to what goes on in this world. Sometimes a bit more NIMBY regarding the world  wouldn't go amiss.

Is that the same Truman who has the distinct honor of being the only human being in history to order the use of Nuclear bombs on a civilians targets?  Yeah he sounds like a nice guy.

And to correct what you said about liberty of speech being permitted and exercisable in Europe.  It isnt.

For example the mere mention or symbols of some political parties or ideology is banned in Europe and especially Germany.   Now you may think censoring free speech is justified, however it does contradict your statement about liberty of speech.

Some say "the only speech worth protecting is questionable speech, safe speech needs no protection"

What you fail to understand Army grunt are the socio-political factors behind your accusation of genocide.

Then Secretary of State Medlein Albright met with the Yugoslov President in peace talks hosted by the French.   What you might not have followed as a grunt soldier, is that the Secretary of State really failed in her diplomacy because a military action was the preferred method of settlement.   As a grunt soldier, you should be concerned when your polticians want to put the burden of diplomacy on the backs of average Americans.   When you join the Army you swear an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, not travel 3000 miles over the Atlantic Ocean to deny those same constitutional rights to other people, simply because they are not American.

As for Kosovo, it was an air war.   A cake walk compared to Iraq, where I served the United States in 2003.

Say um, didnt this start off about the earthquake/tsunami in S.E. Asia?  

Funny how everybody forgot about them so quick, and smoothely segued into arguing about things everybody has already argued about over and over again...

hmmmm

Indeed Wolf. Lets not dishonor the deaths of those who died by fighting with each other. Lets get back on topic.

voo

It appears the current number dead is aprox 60,000. Its difficult to comprehend just how many people that is - as for the number affected - lost loved ones, homes and jobs etc god only knows.

When natural disasters strike these days, the international response tends to be the same - immediate interest, immediate help but long term neglect.

A year ago, Bam was struck by an massive earthquake. It killed aprox 30,000 people. The international Response was imediate interest, however  survivors are still living in temporary shelters.... Where is the help now?

76,700 is the current toll.   Unfathomable.   Words can not adequately describe our sense of loss.   So many people, and this toll is obviously not yet complete.

Of course I feel horribly for the senseless loss of so many human beings.    But in some regards I realize how much worse I would feel if this had been a man-made catastrophy.   Thank god it was a creation of Mother-Nature.  Still I really dont know what to say to the idea of losing nearly 100,000 (perhaps more) fellow human beings in the blink of an eye.

The empty feeling I have in my heart left there by the departure of so many souls leads me to think of what our response should be.   As an American, a citizen of the wealthiest country on earth, a beneficiary of the export products many that of the victimized nations provided to the US I think it is our responsibility as Americans to provide significant and immediate aide without strings attached to the millions of survivors also in the blink of an eye found themselves without food, water, shelter, medical supplies or any means to provide for their children.


I was listenign to Cspan radio yesterday and the state department spokesman said the US had offered a total of $20 million in loans.   In Loans?   In essence any nation accepting our aide would then become indebted to us?   Are you fucking kidding me?   Nearly 100,000 people lose their lives and my country sees this an an opportunity to play banker with poorer countries who are victimized?

What was even more astonishing were my fellow Americans who called in and claimed this was too much aide.   And that because Indonesia  has a large Muslim population it is not the responsibility of America to help.   I'm sorry, but when I hear stupid comments like this over and over coming from my fellow Americans I find it more difficult to identify myself with my so-called compatriots and begin to think of myself as a citizen of the world.   One thing is for damn sure, none of the victims of this Tsunami have ever cut me off in traffic or suffer from the uniquely American phenoma of road-rage.

Why the fuck can my country only spare 20,000,000 million is loans?  Considering the the devestation to human life, the apocolyptic destruction of infrastructure, the damage to homes, food, water, sewage problems, health related issues, 20 million is a fucking Joke.

The UN Official who claimed the US had been stingy in its offer of aid was absolutely WRONG!   That was a compliment.  THe United States hasnt been stingy, we have been absolutely criminally negligent to our fellow human beings.  Shame on US!  Shame on our leadership (democrats and republicans alike)!!!

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I think this is a good example of how no matter what the outcome, someone is going to complain about it.

From the BBC (UK) News website:


And a pretty shocking before and after picture...
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/south_asia_enl_1104323419/img/1.jpg)

take a quick look at the apple (http://www.apple.com) website

Just re-found the forum...

Anyway, I don't want to get into most of the things, this is rather an unprecedented event.

I don't think that cynicism is the best conclusion from comparing reactions of 9/11 and this. I'm not sure natural disasters typically result in the same type of reaction in terms of cancelling sports and such that acts of violence do. So that is why this event doesn't get the same response as 9/11.

You may look at something like the killing in Sudan and say why doesn't that have a response...and I suppose the reason there is it is a sequence of events, not an event itself. If something tragic happens in a violent nature, that is a singular event, then it usually is honored. Kennedey's assassination resulted in game cancellations, 9/11. Locally, the Columbine shooting resulted in a delayed NHL game.

So I believe this is the distinction that makes the 9/11 response different in this way. I do not think many people are taking what has happened lightly. It is going to end up as the single greatest natural disaster in history AFAIK.

I think the thing for people to be reminded by this incident is that we are not in control. Certain policies are taken under the assumption that we are in control and they will lead to tragedy. There are other policies that come from acknowledging our lack of control and instead just do with what we can to lessen nature's risk. That means having proper evac plans for volcanos, having sirens for tsunamis worldwide, continuing with hurricane tracking and making sure buildings in prone places have extra procautions.

Well for the first time in a while i was quite pleased with my government at the news that we've trippled the ammount of aid to 50million  sorry thats about $100 million  USD    ... im sure its no way near enough, but im glad to see we're spending a little more on some aid and a little less on the military.

Getting hot eh Ghostsniper?

Problem all these people have just died - and your talking about a story in a book - some people honestly seem to believe it was true, and most dont. But either way its  rather demeaning to all those that have just lost their lives don't you think?

Then again im sure it was just your twisted sense of humor... funny :o

I'll play along with you GS...back when the flood happened, the population of the world possibly hadn't reached 150,000 yet.

However, what is more likely is that the flood wasn't a global disaster but rather a disaster localized around Mount Ararat in Armenia where it is said the ark landed. So that region was flooded pretty well and certainly killed a lot of people, but again, population dynamics suggest the total population and concentration would not allow a greater death toll than this present event. I mean, the people writing the Bible had no idea North America existed, they probably hadn't been very far out of the near eastern region at that point so their frame of reference for the world was tiny.

Anyway, if someone does have an example from recorded scientific history, I would be interested. But I do feel the important factor is population dynamics, the ability to do such catastrophic damage wouldn't have existed prior to the 19 Century probably, because the population was so much smaller than the present.

I would add, if you throw in epidemic, which is actually resulting from live organisms of the viris or bacteria form, then certainly the Plague and Spanish Influenza have much greater death tolls.

As much as I am pissed about the US priorities on money, I'm not entirely sure I feel they can just throw money around to every cause at the moment. Bush unfortunately isn't willing to sacrifice his tax cuts to raise revenue to help lessen the deficit and have more money available for such unexpected aid needs as well as making sure our troops are properly equipped. He also doesn't seem to want to cut spending, rather his main priority seems to increase our financial problems further by switching a decent amount of social security income to private savings accounts.

U.S. has pledged 350 million.

Now that is comical

       I don't know if anbody has said this but if you look at any map you would wuickly know why the death tool is so high.  India and Bangladesh are two of the many countrys hit.  India has over 1 billoin people living there and Bangladesh is one of the most if not the most densecly populated contries on earth.  There are something on the order of 1.5 to 2 billion people living in those 2 countries alone.  Now think how many more people are in the others hit by this act of mother nature.

       Oh Sal the US can't go ruining it economy just to go help clean up.  You ruin the economy how many more will die cause somebody can afford food cause they lost their job just so we could go spend money to clean up.  You need to consider other thing before you go calling the support from the US "criminally negligent to our fellow human beings."  Yes it should help and so should other countries.