*DAMN R6 Forum

I feel that the Webmaster, Mauti, unjustly banned Crypt, Maniac, Blitz, and Mysterio.  He didn't so much as give them a warning, but used his own interpretation of what is offensive to immediately ban these guys.  Here in this country, the word they called Civic is used totally differently.  Even my wife, who was born and raised in Austria, thinks this ban is wrong.

From Mauti:
Crypt, Maniac, Blitz and Mysterio got banned for 14/7/7/7 days, because of their totaly unqualified, wrong, extrem bashing comments against Civic. Guys take out a history book and read about the terms you used.

I find this extremely distasteful, and feel that those guys should be given a warning, not a ban.[/size]

I agree completely.

i agree 100 % too.

I dissagree.. I took offence to it too b/c of my family history.

Fine if you want to question Civics role as An admin, or his judgement regarding somthing - but to call people here a Nazi seems totally out of line - there is a difference between being a member of the Nazi party and to having questionable motives regarding your activities on a website such as this.

There is no comparison with what the Nazi's did and by calling Civic a nazi for such a petty reason is totally demeaning of what the Nazi's did. To that i would take great offence.

I fail to see how someone can be called a Nazi with the intention of doing anything else but refering them to the Nazi's and the Events of/during and after WWII .

BFG, that is exactly what i tried to say in the complete stupid discussion about it (which is unfortunately still continueing, in the MGL forum now). thank you very much! :)

 For starters, I'd like to say that the attitude that you shouldn't call a German a nazi is total bullshit. Perhaps they should've thought of that back in the 30s and 40s? The Germans killed 450,000 Americans, 12 million people were killed in the Holocaust, their invasion of Russia cost the Russians 20 million lives - mostly civilians. Numerous other European countries lost millions.

I'm not saying that all Germans are nazis, or that even now days someone whose German is more likely to be a nazi that someone whose America. I'm saying that I have absolutely no sympathy for a German who gets called a nazi, and that I don't go in for the bullshit idea that because of the war, you shouldn't call Germans nazis. Sorry, you started it, not us.

Civic isn't being called a nazi just because he's German. I know that if an American acted like that, I wouldn't hesitate to call him/her a nazi.  

What? Typhy are you going insane?

Yes we are well aware of what the Nazi's did, we do not need reminding and i don't know what your History is like but i would like to make it very clear that there was a difference between the Germans and the Nazi's

There are enough seriouse concerns about Facist groups and Political activity that links with the actions and beliefs of the Nazi Party allready, but that is on a level so different than this forums that it is just incomprehensible.

OK IF Someone  was walking around the place saying he believed the Arian race was superior and that homless people, mentally ill patients, Gypsies, Roma's, and the Jews did not deserve to live then perhaps calling them a Nazi might be a different issue. But this is absurd.


Well i have little more to say then. Beleive it or not we are not living in 1930. Things have thank god changed. I think you have no idea how tough it has been for Europe to recover after the war - imagine how it is for Germans knowing what their country did!

Its not a matter of it not being "politically correct" or some bullshit - its about going around calling someone a Nazi without a shred of information as to found such an appauling suggestion.

 I find it pretty disgusting that you find a similarity between A Party who Murdered Millions of people, and the actions of Civic on these forums/ GR .

Im not suprised Mauti banned any of you for this, its disgusting.

Okay, you guys are going way off topic here.  The topic is NOT "why we shouldn't be calling someone a Nazi".  The topic is about getting banned without even a warning because someone violated the webmaster's feelings toward a word being used.  I'm not saying that anyone should call anybody a Nazi (doesn't really bother me if they do), but banning someone without so much as a warning makes YOU look like the dictator (the word Nazi, as it has been used the past few days on this forum, is what American's sometimes call someone who acts like a dictator).  You guys in Europe have been so brainwashed about the use of the word Nazi that you can't even think about it in the context that Crypt, Maniac, Blitz, and Mysterio were using it.

Again, my wife was born and raised in Austria, and has lived in the United States for 15 years.  She has seen both sides of this, both from the perspective of someone from that area (Hitler was born in Austria, by the way), and from the perspective of the way Americans use the word.  And my wife says that banning these people for using the word in that way is BULLSHIT.

So, ban my wife.  At least she has the honesty to tell it like it is.[/size]

Well, i'm not agree with that ban

But i want to add that the Nazi word it doesnt only mean a past with a World War, that word means too an actual party, in todays world, and the root of the todays Nazi Party still is the same to the one founded in 1918 and supported a massive brainwash in a region of Europe.
The todays Nazi Party has a lot of stuff to stand apart in terms of generations or history.

In this link u can find some info with certain way of view, didnt had time to find another with other opposed.
http://www.yre.org.uk/history.html

Maybe my post doesnt have much too do with this trend but i think we have to share what we know about actual things and not live in the past.

and ...

MMi Rules !!!!!!!

Ghostsniper, I'm not sure why your wife's views are so out of keeping with the majority of her countrymen.  Besides, "how" they were using the words is irrelevant - they addressed them to Civic, who is German.  How was he supposed to interpret them?
---

Background
Nazism and WWII are naturally still very sensitive subjects for both Germans and Austrians (and according to Anschluss, which was one of the "justifications" Hitler used for his expansion into Austria, there is no difference between the two nations).  Typhy is completely wrong to express no sympathy for a German called a Nazi - on the contrary, to be called a Nazi, as a German or Austrian, is an extraordinary insult.  Furthermore, to insinuate that modern Germans in some way share culpability for the events of WWII is ludicrious and offensive.

Bans without warning
It's not off topic to address the obvious reason you should not lightly compare a German or Austrian to a Nazi.  It gives some context for the bans.  It is and should be common knowledge that this background information is self-evident.  No warning should be necessary for totally exceeding the bounds of sensitivity and decency.  

I don't even live in Europe, but I speak German and have studied the culture because my family too was affected in WWII.  I completely see where Mauti is coming from - perhaps this will reinforce for those banned the importance of some cultural sensitivity.  Finally, its hardly dictatorial to ban people for egregious personal attacks, when there are warnings all over the place against flaming.  Nazi simply crossed an unwritten line.  BFG summed it up pretty concisely.

Sorry loudnotes, but I do not agree.[/size]

I agree with mauti, and as I posted on MGL I believe there are some things you should not say. If you have an issue with how civic has been acting, or an issue with his being a BL admin have the balls to bring it to his face, and confront the real issue. Calling someone a nazi doesn't do anything constructive, and should, and will, end up with bans.


Oh, and how is Mauti corrupt? It's not as if the anti nazi liberation front is paying him off to stifle all use of the word nazi. Something offended him, it's his site, he has spent four years putting this all together. Find the correct word instead of just finding the sensational one.

You still don't get it.  It is not the use of the word that this is about.  The problem is banning someone right off the bat when they offend you instead of giving them a nice friendly warning.  Go to the person and say "hey, that offends me and I would appreciate you not doing it anymore."  Why do you have to come down on someone with a ban.  THAT is what sounds like a dictatorship to me.[/size]

Well that much is obvious, Ghostsniper.  But I have tried to put Mauti's actions into as balanced a perspective as I can.  As I support his action and you've started this thread to question it, I offerred my take.

But what in particular do you disagree with?  Do you take issue with my assertion that Crypt, et al should have expected Civic, a German, to be offended?  Do you question my interpretation of history?  Does you wife not think that Nazism carries a terrible stigma to this day, especially for Germanic peoples?  Sure, there are Neo-Nazis, but to anyone else it is abhorrent.  You should note that the Nazi party is outlawed in Germany.

So yes, you disagree or you wouldn't have started this thread.  But after seeing some balanced alternative viewpoints, what is your feeling on the matter, especially with regard to the issues BFG and I, among others, have raised?

Yeah, another bullshit thing they do in Germany.  What do you think would happen if the U.S. Government outlawed the Communist Party, or the Nazi Party in this country?  It would cause a worldwide condemnation of the U.S. Government for not having an open mind to people with differing opinions.[/size]

You moron.  There has been an active Communist Party in the Unites States since the 1920's, and an active Nazi Party in the United States since the 1930's.  These organizations don't work like major political parties in this country anymore, they now work more like militia groups and the Ku Klux Klan here.  But they still go against the government of the United States...yet, because of Freedom of Speech, they are not outlawed.[/size]

Well, I completely support Mauti's ban, in fact it was me who informed him of Crypts post. You can swear at each other in these forums, and we have always been very lax on people insulting each other. But there is always a certain line you don't have to cross, and calling someone a Nazi just because of his or her heritage or citizenship does this.

Loud, BFG, Spike, Harvey, thanks for your support in this matter.

*DAMN Elandrion

I said without political power GS. We have never elected an openly facist leader, unlike many european states. They may exist, but the KKK doesn't have much power in congress.

They were not calling Civic a Nazi because of his heritage or citizenship.  They were calling him a Nazi for acting like a dictator.  There is a BIG difference.  Hell, Civic isn't even German, he's Polish.[/size]

wrong, i'm german. i said that i'm originally from poland.

and where the hell did i act like a dictator? did i miss something? lol...

Not at all elandrion :)


GS maybe this can put it in American persective for u.... That was a Pre Emptive Strike from Mauti- Shock & Awe so you won't do it again.

Thanks Elan.

Ghost, why didn't you answer the questions I posed in my post instead of just pointing out a controversial statement?  Please take a moment to consider them before dismissing all the counter arguments against you.

Yes, I know Germany is different from the United States in their ban of the party, but you can't really compare the two.  Banning the party in Germany was the best way to insure that the same mistake will not be repeated.  It is a subject of national shame, and nobody there disagrees with the ban.  Even in this country we impose limits on freedom of speech - Nazism is just as (if not more) offensive to Germans as pornography on network television would be to you.  In any case, the United States does not have a similar issue in history that would prompt us to ban a political party.

I'm not the one who did it, BFG.  I didn't get banned for anything.  I didn't call anyone a Nazi on here.  I just think that those who did get banned for it should be given a warning for their first offense.[/size]

Hi GhostSniper,

yes, you are right that usually people get a warning first, before banned, as it is written in the admin's guidelines.

However in this issue we were facing a rabble-rousing attack against a member of this community. Guys immediatly jumped on Crypt's bandwagon so I had to react immediately. There are some points that should be common sense, e.g. like you treat your fellow man. As Elandrion already mentioned it - there is a line where the fun stops. Like our 0 tolerance rule for cheating in the *DBL. There aren't any warnings if you go that far, you are out.

Bye,

Mauti

Civic's the one who needs to learn "how to treat his fellow man".

I havent noticed civic calling anyone a nazi lately

No, only acting like one.

So why don't we have a review of civic's actions as a BL admin? If theres something improper, steps can be taken?

Typhy you're pushing it yourself with comments like that.

Right, loud. Ban me for posting my views of an admin decision in the "Feedback about admins" section. Step off, bitch.

Have you read a word anyone has said in this thread?  The whole point is about how wildly offensive it is to call someone a Nazi, and yet you just did it.  "Step off, bitch" is a much more appropriate way to voice your opinion.

so... after asking several times now in several places about when, where and how i acted like a nazi... nobody could give an answer. figures...

i said "in several places". that includes the MGL forum.

...

And the point everyone else has made, yet you and Typhy have ignored, GS, is that Civic could not have acted like a Nazi.  Nothing he said or did remotely compares with the atrociites of World War 2, and there simply is no case for asserting otherwise.

exactly, loudnotes, exactly. :)

??I have just read through your posts on the MGL. Eight is absolutly right you are making yourselves look like idiots.

? Nowhere in that thread did i see any explanation which would in anyway give good reason to refering to civic as a Nazi.

?? To those of you that are arguing about this you obviously have a very limited knowledge of the situation regarding Facism, the Nazi party and what has happend in Europe, before, during and since the Second world war. - Then again in your defence there is no way you could quite comprehend it considering - Europe was deeply scared by what happend, we still are. There is a intense hatred for Facism here, You aruge that everyone is entitled to free speach but should you allow a group who is trying to destroy free speach have that free speach?

? As several of us have stated allready you cannot make any comparison between Civic actions and that of the Nazi party or Groups such as the BNP with their facist views. Many of us find this deeply deeply insulting, disrespectfull, no infact im not quite sure how to express it. You are totally demeaning what has happend.

??Ghostsniper: no offence but your wife obviously dosn't have a fucking clue if she feels she can make links between the beliefs of a group of people that led to the Genocide that happend in camps like Belson, Dachau, Ravensbruck,  and Buchenwald among many others, and the actions of Civic on these forums. If they want to complain about civics actions do it in a productive manner don't just call him a nazi "because he acts like one"

...
Facism: a Definition
The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that
? exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual,
? uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
? engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and
? espouses nationalism and sometimes racism (ethnic nationalism).

....

Mauti gave you your answer, its seven days ban, go back to the MGL forum where you can  bitch and whine about it and continue to make yourselves look so ignorant. But you do not call civic a Nazi on these forums as has been done.

I am not going to bring anything from the MGL Forum in here.  I am not defending someone calling you a Nazi, I simply don't think it requires a ban for the first offense.  I've stated how I feel, you've all stated how you feel...so let's all just SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT ALREADY.  ;)

Cool, GS this is one of those moments when the clouds part and for a brief moment... We both agree on somthing ;)

GhostSniper...a lot of the posts in this thread were geared toward changing your point of view or asking you to try to explain yourself better.  I'm all for shutting up in general, but I'm curious why you haven't addressed any of the points raised against you?

Fine dickhead...list point by point exactly what it is you want me to address and I will respond.[/size]

Sigh...can't you just go back and read?  I've said this three times already.  Quoting two of my posts, each of which have questions in them:



The point isn't so much every line within these posts.  It's that you dismissed them (and BFG's) entirely with "sorry, but I don't agree."  No shit.  Why don't you say why and support your viewpoint if you have any counterarguments?

Because I actually have a life and during my busy day at work I often miss things that are written....or don't have time to respond to longer posts when I see them.  I also don't have a lot of time to go back and read through threads for stuff that I may have missed.[/size]


Yes, "how" the words were being used is very relevant.  The fact that those people weren't using the word "Nazi" to mean Civic is racist, a murderer, or guilty of war crimes does mean something.  In fact, to honestly think that Blitz, Crypt, or the others were actually saying it in that way is laughable.  They were saying that Civic is a dictator, no more.  And it is that context that my wife disagreed with her countrymen.  Also, whether or not Civic is a dictator or not, you will have to let those who were banned answer that.[/size]


No need to give me background on WWII...it was the emphasis of my History Degree.  Typhy can express whatever the hell he wants...you can't tell someone what they can or can not think or feel.  Ever hear of FREEDOM?  Telling someone they can't think a certain way was a hallmark of the Nazis.  So am I calling YOU a Nazi?  Of course not, but saying that makes you SOUND like a Nazi.  See the difference?  Also, modern Germans do not necessarily share culpability for the events of WWII, however, many of their family members do (mothers, fathers, grandmothers, grandfathers, etc).  And to say that none of those people spread their racist thoughts and feelings down through the generations of their family would be a lie.[/size]


I think that if those people in Germany and Austria don't want to be called Nazis, they should think about the way they act.  This forum is a prime example.  There is no community voice in anything done here.  Whatever Mauti, Flies, Civic, and some of the other admins wants is what goes.  The community that is the MAJORITY on this forum and in this League gets no say in anything.  Even those admin who run things are not voted on by the community.  So, when someone says this place is a dictatorship, that is why.  And then to ban someone for their first offense because it offends an admin is really out of line.  Hell, people have called me things in the forum that I have taken great offense to, but you didn't see any of them get banned.  Nice double standard.[/size]


Again, I sometimes miss these things.  So sue me.[/size]

Nazis killed some of my family members during WWII.  Do you know what I take offense to?  Fucking Europeans who have no appreciation for America coming to their aid over and over during history....WWI, WWII, and most recently in the Balkans.  I take offense that some of the fucking liberals, Europeans, and socialists on this forum don't pay me the first fucking courtesy for going into Kosovo, being wounded, and losing some of my best friends because the FUCKING EUROPEANS wouldn't stand up to tyranny right in their BACK YARD.  So when you have gone into combat, when you have taken a bullet for your buddy, and when you have watched friends of yours die right in front of you....THEN you can come in here and tell me that calling someone a Nazi is this great crime against humanity![/size]

Oh for Fuck sake. Yes Ghostsniper we all know that you believe the rest of the world should be bowing down and worshiping America at every god damn moment. Of course people appreciate the help in WWII, you weren't the only country to go to war though... And its not exactly as if america just decided it would like to come and help Europe.. there were little things like Perl Harbour that had a little inpact! This bullshit about lack of appreciation etc is exactly that. Bullshit.

There is a difference beweeen calling someone a Dictator, and a Nazi.

If you want to call someone a Nazi go ahead - however that sort of personal insult  is however not tollerated on these forums hence the one week bans.

Regarding the community not having a view... more bullshit. Everything that people put forward and discuss is taken into account, and changes and inprovments are made as suggested and requested by the community - sometimes of course this can't happen, somtimes it does. If you genuinly believe there is no community voice i wonder where you have been all this time. A dictatorship is, by its defination dicated by one person. *DAMN Does not work that way.

Thank you for clarifying your views, Ghostsniper.  I am perfectly aware of what it is like not to have time to fully respond to posts, but since you made several posts hence in this thread after a dismissal "I disagree," it appeared to be more a case of not having any good response.

Now, if you think its best to shut up already, I think we can all do that.

Absolutely....I really didn't want to go back down the track in my last post.  All it ever does is upset BFG.[/size]  ;)

Even if you are right Tiro, I removed your content because we don't need to warm up very old issue, do we?

Bye,

Mauti