*DAMN R6 Forum

The research insitute "Globescan" has tested the 2 candidates in 35 countries worldwide.
 
Bush has a majority in 3 of them, Philipines (57% vs 32%), Nigeria (33% vs 27%) and Poland (31% vs 26%).

On average, people would choose Kerry (46%) and not Bush (20%).
Here are the results of the countries in wich people voted massively for the democrat candidate:
- Norway: 74% Kerry, 7% Bush
- Germany: 74% Kerry, 10% Bush
- France: 64% Kerry, 5% Bush
- Italy: 58% Kerry, 14% Bush
- Netherlands: 63% Kerry, 6% Bush
- Russia: 20% Kerry, 10% Bush
- Czechs: 42% Kerry, 18% Bush
- UK: 47% kerry, 16% Bush

Others countries voted as well (China, India, Brazil, INdonesia...) but results were closer, although in favor of the democrat candidate.

Other results were released today by the German Marshall fund and can be viewed at

www. transatlantictrends.org

In essence, Bush's foreign policy is rejected by 76% of europeans, an 12% increase compared to 2003, a 20% increase compared to 2002. Bush's foreign policy is approuved by 51% of the americans.

Another interesting poll is the importance of military power in order to maintain peace. For 54% of the americans, and only 28% of the europeans, military power is the best way to maintain peace.

@BFG...Yes, we do feel embarrassed.

I'd respect GS' opinion if it wasn't so biased to the USA. At least support your opinion with some detail, GS.

it's good to see you back GS  

Yes but to love your country like a 4 year old child loves his mommy is just plain irrational.

Has it ever occured to you that your forign policy is doing far far greater damage to your country? There is loving your country, and then there is being blind. If you love it so much why do you not care at the damage that is being done to it, to the physical damage as you destroy your environement.... the damnage and hate that you are causing around the world towards your country - the fact that your countrys stupid actions only makes people accorss the world more determined to stop the damage you are causing - to yourselves and the rest of the world.

... step one is to remove the retarded president that cheated his way into power

The thing is.. This started B4 bush. Clinton did the same thing (in bosnia) but it was not in the public till after everything occured. Its not just bush.

country and government are two very different entities. Do not mix them !

Very very true.... bush is just making the problem worse!


Also very very true!!

When I read GS's first post I cant get past some of the foolish things he says. I look to dictionary.com for a definition of patriotism because the way GS uses it makes me wonder if I just don't know the meaning:

"Love of and devotion to one's country" --dictionary.com

Alright, wait wait, am I missing something here, let's look deeper. Perhaps I need to brush up on the meaning of devotion:

"1. Ardent, often selfless affection and dedication, as to a person or principle. See Synonyms at love.
2. Religious ardor or zeal; piety.
3. a. An act of religious observance or prayer, especially when private. Often used in the plural.
    b. devotions Prayers or religious texts: a book of devotions.
4. The act of devoting or the state of being devoted." -dictionary.com

Okay.... Still not understanding the line: "To have no patriotism, to not love your country above nearly everything else, is just plain wrong." Hrm, so let me understand exactly what he means, he thinks that we don't love our countries because we disagree with the current state of things?

You seem to believe that since the US has the most built up military in the world... at this time. Let me tell you something GS. If I were a US citizen, born raised and with only American view points, I would still know there is more to the world than a single country. There is more to the world that your decisions can destroy. If you want to truly believe that the US should always put themselves first no matter what the consequences of that are, you are one sick, twisted, ignorant, arrogant, uneducated freak. Is your IQ in the negative range?!

You are blinded to a level where you yourself have become a fool to your loyalties. Step back GS, forget everything you believe, and look at things objectively with their consequences on the world. Just try it, perhaps you learn there is more than just the United States of America to the world.

P.S. No this isn't meant to be flame material, I'm just very upset about the things he said.

PS....

The US might have the biggest, most expensive army in the world... but by no means does that make it the best.

? Um hello... Your Support for Isreal comes under your forign policy
? can u think for yourself or do you just repeat what the bush administration and the oil companies say you should think?
? So digging up alaska to dig for oil, destroying the Caribou breading grounds, deforistation, the fact you are one of the most poluting countries in the world you think dosn't harm the environment? If only we could seal you off fromt he rest of the world and let you rot there.
?  Ok.. your more safe than before. Don't complain when your civilians are murdered around the world then, or when the next big attack comes and kills thousands in the US... becasue at this rate it will come.

... still can't quite believe you could be so stupid about the environment... jesus people say that we steriotype but you really fit the bill as a crazy gun toting republican religious extremist nutter who can't think for himself.

... PS how can you really be a good Christian and think all this? If theres a big guy upstairs or whatever you want to think, i wouldn't be suprised if he dosn't give u a good kicking on your way down.

Tell that to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, they were not willing to lay down their lives, so why the fuck should I lay my life down for them? And I would be more than happy to die protecting my civil liberties, next revolution I'll be there.

unfortuantly, blind and stubborn conviction seems to win against reason and logic everytime

First of all we don't tap our oil here, because we get it from Saudi Arabia and if we try to sell ours they can just lower theirs and sell it to everyone for cheaper since they have so much which puts us out of business. I agree with GS some of you guys need to stop being so pacifistic with all of this we are over their fighting and trying to liberate Iraq so they can be free just as we are. Incase some of you have been brain washed from commies like Michael Moore making bullshit movies that lie and stretch the truth so much. A lot (not all of those people) are terrorists and if they start to shoot at you or attack you're country you should fight back. Make sure that they can't do it again and hurt others. These terrorist are not human and they have no regard for human life at all. They have an intense hate for America, freedom, and the rest of the world. As far as the subject of women and children casualties being shoot, all i can say is oh well their fathers that were doing all that shit bombing and other terrorist acts will be taught to them, and they will be a threat later in the future. I have NO compassion for future threats at all. I may sound harsh right now but in times like this you can't let anything fly we are on the offense and were going to be until we have done our job the right way.

Well, you are free not to believe it...but you are also free to be wrong. And by not believing it you are wrong. I don't know how or why you convince yourself to stick your head in the sand and claim global warming is junk science. We have observed it...it is happening in front of our very eyes. It is totally and utterly true. It won't destroy the Earth...humans do not have the power to destroy the Earth, we just have the power to make ourselves extinct...at which point the Earth would take its sweet ass geologic time and make everything back in balance. I think that is what really pisses off a lot of people like you, you can't control nature...you can't stand things you can't control. Just like you think you can control terrorism through force and intimidation. The world will be a lot better off in many ways when people realize they cannot control everything in the world and just focus on what can be controlled (such as CO2 emmissions.)

No don't worry maniac you don't sound harsh, just pretty stupid.


Not going to waste more time by pointing out how stupid, and ignorant your understanding of what is going on... although god help us that its the kids like u that are going to be voting and populating this world.

As for what it says about your country, your education system... that you can really honestly think the things youve written there...god only knows

ahh.. but do you realy know what causing global warming.. thatr is the question... Its not what you think it is.. and its not what the gov is telling everyone is causing it (lets just say there are secritive expriments going on in alaska and other areas of the world that are causing alot of the global warming) My Cusin did a reaserch papper on the reserch facility in Alaska.. and she found some very interesting info.

Listen you can't get all upset over what i said BFG and take it to heart, but i don't appreciate you going off and saying things like that. Don't you think that i knew my post would make some people mad?! Wake up dude stop living in a dream world, i say what i think is right. Wether i am or not is irrelevant, the point is you no longer had an argument you just started calling names. You can post that crap all you want say the most horrible things ever it's not going to do anything but make you mad.

Maniac, since when can you ever back up any claims on GR, iChat, NF, or these forums? Unless I miss read it sounded like you were supporting the killing of innocent civilians based on your belief that they were fathered by terrorists? You are a sick fuck. They are civilians. This is just like when you claim Bush was in Vietnam. Or like when you say they have satellite picture of Iraq shipping its weapons to Syria. Just shut up maniac. You are really really a sick fuck.

Guess I came upon this thread a little late, so forgive me for quoting posts from the previous page.

OK, that's fair, it's great that you are happy with the country you live in.

OK, understandable, but do you think that putting the United States first is tantamount to agreeing, heedlessly and absolutely, with the opinions held by and the actions taken by whomever is the President?  Think it's possible for me to completely disagree with President Bush, yet still be putting the United States first?  Cause I sure do.

Here's where you start to slide away from me.  If by this you mean we should act in such a way as to increase our power or influence in the world, without regard for who is hurt or what is destroyed by our actions, I think you're a fool.  You think it's fun to be a bully?  What happens when you're no longer the strongest?

Remember that crappy Spiderman movie?  "With great power comes great responsibility."

I'd argue that it takes a great deal more patriotism to do what's right for your country and the world than to unconsciously nod your head at everything the President does (I'm not saying that you do one or the other, just throwing in my opinion).  I certainly wouldn't call someone patriotic simply for have an opinion that corresponds to the opinion of President Bush.

Yes i can  ;D and yes i did. Its pretty upsetting to see people think the way you apear to, that is if think can be really used in this situation.


lol a dream world? sorry can i just get this straight your asking me to stop living in a dream world? Sure your allowed to say what you think is right, but if we are going to talk about the world and politics what you say is  worth little more than bullshit if you are plucking it out the air without even the most simplistic of knowledge about what is going on in the world. its your opinion fine, if challenged you can't back up your ridiculous statements of absurdity then go try feeding them to idiots somewhere else


Oh ok so i called you stupid - ok well thats my opinion of someone who has such a limited grasp of current events though... no argument? im sorry but where exactly was your argument, it seemed to be nothing more than a list of stupid rubbish about how you think its fine to kill men women and children becasue probably their parents were terrorists.


IF you mean what you say and your not just some stupid little kid looking for attention, then you must be more sick in the head than i can imagine. Go to school try learn somthing, maybe book in to see the psychiatrist while your at it.

Freedom = death. No thanks.

Uh huh...whatever dude. I advise you to look at graphs that chart the increase in global temperature with the increase in CO2 and other greenhouse gas production. Not to mention that there is solid science about what sections of the Electromagnetic spectrum can go through which parts of the atmosphere on the way to the earth from the sun and on the way back out from the earth that shows that the greenhouse effect is physically a fact.

We don't know the extent or speed in which the warming will happen or what will result exactly from it. But we do know why it is happening and that it is happening. And we have reasonable guesses about what will happen as a result...the time frame really is the part we have the worst beat on.

Define free... free as in an American interim goverment? free as in an invading force? Free in that Saddam hussain was removed from power. Are you aware that most of the fighting currently going on is by Iraqi's? Not terrorists they are defending their country from an invading force. ok what they are doing is not right in most peoples eyes but mostly they are not terrorists. there is a big difference.


Do you even know what communism is? NO, otherwise you wouldn't call Michael Moore a Communist.

 If we're still talking about iraq... wrong again, of course most of them arn't terrorists. If  Russia invades the United states and captures George bush because he has weapons of mass destruction, would you fight the occupying Russian forces? Try and recognise there is a difference between islamic militant insurgents and iraqi civilians. hope thats not to much of a complicated jump between defining everyone as "us or terrorists"


wow! Gues what, wrong again!! they hate freedom? has it occured to u that many of the iraqi's fighting the occupying forces believe they are fighting for their freedom? they have been invaded... they want to be free.



Yeah well we've been here allready, your obviously just fucking sick and stupid. not much more u can say about that.


U can't let anything fly? you mean you can't let people object to what is going on?? Your job? the right way? What exactly is your job and what is the right way?

BFg speaks only the truth. But the truth doesn't matter to maniac.

then what would expain the hole in the ozone overthe artic area.. there is not much polotion up there.. exept for the fact that the hole is over that research plant. This reaserch plant (and other like it over the world) was made to reaserch on ways for the human race could controll the weather patters of the world (its a machine that they are expirmenting with to do that)

Good God, I don't even know why I bother. Is there a mental hospital missing a patient?

Global warming and ozone layer depletion (which seemst to have reversed and is building back due to reduction of CFC use and lower level ozone pollution making its way to the ozone layer) are not related. The location of the ozone hole over Antartica (as opposed to the general depletion elsewhere) is due to a specific physical meteorological aspects exclusive to Antartica. http://epa.gov/ozone/science/hole/whyant.html

     BFG, I'm loving your British rage. : D

     I'd fight the stupidities in this thread, but Bondo and BFG are handling that quite nicely. Rather, I'll mention something that caught my eye. Maniac said, "These terrorist [sic] are not human and they have no regard for human life at all." I was deeply surprised by the realization that the dehumanization tactic still works. Someone in a perceived position of authority tells you that your enemies are not human. You listen, take it to heart, and begin treating them worse than you'd treat animals. It's a useful tactic in war, since no sane human being could sally forth to kill as many other human beings as possible. But working to kill nonhumans, well hey, let's saddle up! Hell, I dunno why I'm bothering typing this--there's no Bush cultist who's about to listen to the idea that perhaps insight could be gained by thinking of those people as people and asking oneself what would drive them to give their lives so willingly.

for fucks sake man take your own advice, stop buying this whole big media bundle of lies "freeing iraq" shit. Freeing that country was the last thing we had in mind when we stepped foot in that hellhole. The original scam was the weapons, now that they can't find any (there never were any) Mr.Bush just said "Hey fuck it lets take saddam out and call it operation iraqi freedom".

Grow up, you make me sick.

All true loth, all depressingly true, oh and sorry for the rage there ;)

----------

So the environment is all good, nothing is wrong and we should be pumping out pollutents as much as we like? Have you got even the smallest idea of what bush has been doing over the past years to destroy everything Clinton put in place to try and protect your beautiful country and the rest of the world?

Yes, beautiful country - from what i have seen your country has some increadable landscapes, wildlife and more. Surely you would like to keep it that way? OK I know some of u go camping, walking etc - heck ive seen pics on PGR with guys out walking and climbing. Not everyone spends their lives behind an SUV!?

Oh and Maniac let me give you something to chew on, seeing as you don't appear to belive me about Alaska, or are just unable to backup your totally unfounded claims see if you can manage to read this:


[/b]?
?
January:

???Bush inaugurated on Jan. 20

???Bush selects New Jersey Gov. Christine Whitman to head the  Environmental Protection Agency and Gale Norton to be  Secretary of the Interior.  Environmentalists lobby  intensely against the Norton nomination out of concern that she will favor  oil exploration and development over the protection of public lands.

???Bush imposes strict restrictions on U.S. funds to international  family-planning groups involved in abortion. The order prohibits overseas health care providers or  non-governmental organizations that receive U.S. funds from providing  abortions, abortion-related counseling or referrals. In addition, Bush's  mandate prevents them from advocating anti-abortion laws within their own country.

???Bush directs Vice President Dick Cheney to head an energy task force,  which will address short-term and long term-energy problems. Bush advocates  for greater offshore oil drilling and reiterates his campaign pledge to  pursue drilling in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.  can i make this any clearer for you maniac?

???The EPA temporarily eases clean air regulations to help California cope  with energy crunch.

February:

???Bush delays until May 12 a Clinton administration plan to ban road  construction and timber harvesting on nearly 60 million acres of forest land.

???EPA Administrator Christie Whitman says the Bush administration is  considering limits on carbon dioxide emissions.


March

???The Environmental Protection Agency agrees to enforce a Clinton  administration plan to require diesel buses and heavy duty trucks to have  cleaner engines in order to reduce tailpipe pollutants over the next decade.

???Whitman assures the public that the United  States is not stepping away from the Kyoto Protocol drafted in  1997 to cut the pollution blamed for global warming.

???Bush appoints J. Steven Griles to serve as Deputy Secretary of the  Interior, the second most powerful position in the department.  Environmentalists note that Griles has lobbied for a host of industry  causes, including the National Mining Association and Occidental Petroleum.

???Bush backs off from his campaign pledge to regulate carbon dioxide from  electric power plants in order to curb global warming.

???The Bush administration asks a federal court in Idaho to postpone a  hearing on Clinton's roadless areas plan.

???The Bush administration says it will relax federal pollution rules for  blending ethanol into gasoline in certain areas to avoid a spike in prices  during the summer driving season.

???The Bush administration announces funding cuts for wildfire prevention.

???Norton discusses a reversal of the Clinton administration ban on  snowmobiling in Yellowstone National Park.

???Norton suspends hard-rock mining rules passed by the Clinton  administration that allow regulators to veto environmentally damaging mines  on public lands.

???Whitman reverses a Clinton administration  rule to tighten controls on arsenic pollution in the nation's drinking  water.

???Norton discusses the reversal of national monument designations on  public land that were made during the Clinton administration.

???Bush formally withdraws the U.S. from participation in the Kyoto  Protocol on climate change.

April:

???Bush maintains his position on drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife  Refuge and adds that he will look for energy supplies in other U.S. federal  lands, the Northwest Territories of Canada and Mexico.  Ok apart from drawing you a little picture book and coloring in book i don't think we can make it any clearer for you here maniac

???Bush unveils his federal budget proposal for fiscal year 2002, which  would cut environmental programs by about $2.3 billion. Included in the  budget is a  proposal to remove a provision from the Endangered Species Act that allows  environmental groups and others to sue the Interior Department to get rare  plants and animals listed as endangered.

???Bush agrees to uphold a Clinton administration plan to regulate mercury  emissions from coal-burning power plants.

???Bush selects Dale Bosworth to head the National Forest Service.  Environmentalists generally welcome him but raise concerns that he will  cater to the interests of the timber industry.

???Bush upholds lead regulations passed by the Clinton administration.

???The Bush administration agrees to uphold a Clinton administartion to ban recreational snowmobile use in Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks. At the same time the administration says that it will continue to negotiate "limited use" of the machines with Wyoming officials.

???Secretary of the Interior Gale Norton announces that she will seek to reverse a Clinton Administration plan to return endangered grizzly bears to public land in Idaho and Montana.



Ooh goody lets take a little look at what we've learnt today!!

? Bush dosn't give a flying fuck about the environment. Industry comes first, the environment comes last(especially his best friends industry) and don't even get me started on Dick Cheney.  

? We can't expect him to understand about the environment untill he has learn't to string a proper sentance together, but he could have got some decent advisers - instead he just got some friends who wanted to release regulations so their friends could fill their big fat wallets just a bit more.

??He dosn't care about your health - do you have any idea how much arsnic bush is prepared to let you drink in your water? No? well he's reversed the regulations that clinton brought in for your safety. Nice to know Bush cares about you heh?

??Clever mr bush gave out building permets to big logging companies to build roads...

? You live in one of the most poluting countries in the world, Im not even going to go into the standards of your Air. Put it this way though, its killing you. Sounds stupid, but the ammount of chemicals and polutants in the air in your cities and accross the country is literally killing people. Cases of Asthma, Canca, leukemia to name a few.


Fucking hey the more i write the more i can't belive how u can be so fucking ignorant. How can you care so little? Jesus most people who behave like you are sectioned under the mental health act over here!.


[im]http://www.whywehatebush.com/news/images/pollutionProblem.jpg[/img]

Ghost sniper you have a wife and kids? You care and love them? You love your country? Thats wonderfull.
 Why are you so happy then for George bush to be destroying the safeguards that protect yours, your wife, and your childrens heath - the safe guards that make sure every breath you take is not filled with mercury, arsenic, and hundreds of other deadly polutants? Why do you not care that Bush is so happy to destroy some of the most beautiful areas of your country, to destroy some of the most valuable and wondefull wildlife that you have? IF you love your country why are you supporting the one man that has done more to damage it than any outher president? ever.

lolol.. thats about the least intellegent thing I've heard someone say in a long while.

Sorry Gabe, I only have my degree in Geography and Environmental Science, what would I know about global warming...I conceed to your brilliant knowledge *rollseyes*

First of all, what does Geography have to do with it? Second, what I said is a plain fact, not some ingenious realization I've pulled from the depths of my mind.

And, btw, I'm not saying global warming is a fictional concept.

maniac is an example of an impressionable mind molded into a fucking tool, believing everything the government controlled media would have him believe. ghostsniper just needs something real to grasp. i'm sure if he could see his country being destroyed, he might believe it (depending on weather his puppet strings are loose enough to allow him to sway just a little bit). it is too late for the US to end this hatred against them, they already armed israel and helped them gain a sense of superiority. but it is still possible to make wrongs right. if israel is destined to defend what they believe in until the end of time, then so be it. this is not our war...or is it? no one knows anymore, the jews definately have a lot of influence in US government, and god knows they have their own agenda.
i was thinking how lovely it would be if we could just shoot all the power hungry hateful scum bags onto the moon. let them battle for their territory up there. that way, those who know better could enjoy life and the earth we were given the way it was meant to be enjoyed. truth is, we are steadily destroying ourselves, and those who govern allow this to happen. we are relying on our technology to save us, when it is quite obvious science has failed us. we spend far too much time trying to understand things that are insignificant from a wider perspective. all of man's problems today were created by man. no one can deny this. we are disgusting race. those responsible should be ashamed. some of you people just make me fucking sick.

Im not saying thatGlobal warming does not exist.. I'm saying the main cause for it is not what the Governmeant is telling everyone it is. The CO2 is a small part of it. But the gov uses it as the main cause to try to hide what they are realy doing thats is alot worse.

correct.  I also believe we should be worrying more about things like destroying forests and our ozone layer.  Things like that could be potentially much more harmful to humans and other animals than 'high' CO2 levels.

Gabe.. the ozone is what we are talking about.....

Something you might notice in wingnut speech when they talk about Bush policies.

"I believe, I believe, I believe."

When they talk about anyone they disagree with.

"I don't believe, I don't believe, I don't believe."

It's faith based rather than fact based.  

Here's a quote everyone should let sink it:  "It isn't what you believe, it's what you can prove."



And then there is Republican silence.  Because they can't prove anything.  They can't prove that Bush is a moral leader, they just believe he is.  They can't prove he served his country honorably, they believe he did.  They can't prove he's winning the war on terror, they believe he is. They can't prove we're freer, they believe we are. They can't prove anything that's positive for Bush. They just believe.

For example, I could refute the things Ghost says with facts. I could point out that it is our policy that makes some people hate us by demonstraiting that after World War II much of the world loved Amerca -- I could draw out the distinction between our conflict with Germany and Japan and the war in Iraq; how morally they are worlds apart precisely because the world disagrees with our take.  America does not have a monopoly on morality.  I could correct Ghost by stating that even now, after four years of brutal and insenstive foreign policy, most people still like America.  They dislike Bush and blame him for the negative things he's done, and long for a return to power of the Democrats.  I could point out how remarkable this is, since more people around the world weren't well informed about American internal politics -- they've had a crash course since Bush came to power.  I could parse the details of comments like, "Sorry, but I don't see why the world isn't on OUR side instead of the side of the TERRORISTS" and how they reflect a general ignorance of world points of view (precisely the sort of ignorance that has developed the ineffective policies of Bush) -- the world, in sum is not a coherent unit and arguing that the whole world is agaisnt us is exactly the sort of willful ignorance that has driven this country into the muck.  Further, the "world" is not for thre terrorists; the "world", like the general human populace, is moral.  It views our actions specifically in Iraq and in Guantanio Bay as immortal acts; first, the invasion of Iraq against the better judgement of the UN (which is a forum that represents world governments), and two, the brutal treatment of interned combatants in Cuba. As we have learned the American government has willfully ignored the Geneva Convention -- one of the foundations of civilization and concepts of human decency.  For example, the Nazi's ignored the Geneva Convention and for the same reasons the United States has ignored them.

But none of this matters because the fundamentalists in our own country believe otherwise.  

I woudl argue these fundamentalists are as dangerous as the muslim fanatics.  But then I'd be yelled at with whatever ridiculous curses they could come up with.  Maybe I'm not patriotic enough, or something. (warnning, metaphorical association) Maybe my wounds in Veitnam aren't sevier enough.

Worse, these fundamentalists have managed to control the debate in the United States for the past decade or so. Currently they refuse to listen when informed people question them -- this is because their positions are ground in a faith in the President, rather than in a factual basis. It's much harder to stand having your faith in something questioned than it is when you ground your opinions in fact, precisely because faith is unquestionable. If you allow yourself to question your faith then you have none. Hence, Republicans are fanatically devoted to Bush -- he is the icon of their faith that everything he's done is wonderful, that the country is on the upspring, that the war in being won, that every blood sacrifice in Iraq is meaningful, and that the 3000 Americans murdered three years ago have been avenged.

Of course, they can barely stand it when someone, such as John Kerry, has the gaul to challenge Bush in anyway, shape, or form.  Challenges of fact and opinion are in direct conflct with their faith.  And if they loose their faith -- if they cease to rationalize their points of view and start anylizing them critically -- then they will be gutting a very powerful, very emotionally attached part of themselves.

All I have to say is that after Nov 2 the use of anti-depressants is going to increase by about... oh thirty per-cent of the population.

Just don't blow yer brains out, wingnuts, after the rest of the country wakes up from the dream.

Exactly what i was thinking Sixhits.... This is all "I belive, i belive, i belive" not i think, or anything more than opinions without a shred of fact or reason.
IF there is somthing in the world you don't like then you simply "don't belive it" and seem to refuse its existance. I expect we could lay every single piece of solid evidence on everything we have spoken about here and you still wouldn't belive it, becasue you don't want to. becasue you see it as a threat to your life, and what you 'believe in'.

Its the same kind of mentality as Islamic fundamentalists - they have somthing very clear that they belive in, and no matter what people say, no matter how the evidence builds up disproving their beliefs, they will refuse to accept it, becasue they do not want to accept somthing so different.

Ghostsniper the muslim world does not hate you. Do you know anything about the muslim religon? There is a difference from muslims and islamic fundamentalists.... just as there is a difference from the vicar just down the road from me, and crazy american Christian fundamentalists.


Well then i believe you are simply ignorant. ignorant or in denial. To honestly belive that the rest of the world is wrong and u are right, yet be completely and utterably unable to show any shred of evidence that backs up your believes... you still refuse to even consider them is just crazy.  And then you wonder why the rest of the world dosn't like you much? well we don't like the fact that there are stupid ignorant americans polluting our planet and refusing any responsibility becasue they don't want to belive that what they are doing is causing so much harm.

What really sucks is that nuance is lost on you.  There is a difference between religious Faith and faith in something irreligious.

I suggest you run your personal life based on your Faith.  Bush should stop running the country based on his faith.

I'm pretty sure having faith you'll find a billion dollars in the bank won't make it happen.  Sometimes the real world intervenes. But having Faith that God is there for you in times of need is a beautiful thing.  I can think of few things that comforted the victims of 9/11 more. Oh, maybe if Bush had bothered to increase funding for our first responders like he promised?

     Sixhits, I want to have sex with you. You sexy, rational man, you.

Can i have seconds? ;)

ps... hows the book loth? finnished?

Oh my my my,you are quite a diverse group, my dear *DAMN forum whores. Being in the background usually amuses me greatly.
However, this thread, i cannot ignore. Such strong beliefs, right-wing-nuts and left-wing-tree-huggers, where to start?

First, something none of you have adressed (in full) yet. The Bush administration's determination to ignore all conventions with any promise of a better future. Is that an overstatement? Perhaps, but consider:
 ? The ICC (War crimes court in the Hague, currently with Milosevic on trial), is being hampered by the current USA gov't. How? They have not ratified the treaty, forming the basis of this court, thus denying the power of the court includes the USA military. Why? Is the USA the very summum of humanity? Is there NO POSSIBILITY of an American officer EVER committing war crimes? Apparently not.
I've just mentioned "How?" the Bush admin is working against the ICC? Also, they are actually trading favors, for votes against it. Rulers of piss-poor countries, in need of any aid they can get their hands on, can get extra "aid", by voting against the ICC! Old news, I know.
Did any of you know of the HR 4775 bill, with the "ASPA" addition? It states (in diplo-speak), that american servicemen being tried by the ICC may be retrieved BY FORCE from prison? So, in being the greatest military power on earth, the USA is also above the laws of natural justice, and humanity?

Which brings me to point 2:
 ? Once, comparing the USA's foreign policy to Hitler's Germany, was unthinkable. Now, the comparison, imo, is inescapable.
Does the USA hold prisoners in an isolated facility, without the right to seek civilian legal counsel? Look up the geneva convention. I suggest Articles 3 (1.c) and 4 as a good place to start.
Did anyone read Orwell's 1984? An ancient book, with the perfect example of how nations should not be run.
Well, we have the government that thinks itself infallable (including obscure puppet-head-of-state, whom people believe in religiously(look at GS).
Work on the ministry of love is coming along nicely (NSA, biometric passports, >50 items of personal information required to enter the country, and god knows what's going on inside guantanamo bay).
Last, but not least, the apparently constant urge of the USA to "liberate" small countries, with bad leadership. This, to me, seems like modern imperialism (do i hear "Oceania"?). Why not let the dictatorial problems solve themselves? The man WILL die eventually, giving "progressive elements" in his country a shot at reforms.
Bah, never mind this point, any normal person stopped reading a while back, and anyone still with me doesn't understand what i'm trying to say.

#3: (i could keep on going, but it's late.. no.. early)
 ? Religious faith is a self-delusion caused by lack of certainty about one's own actions and/or decisions in life. To be able to measure those actions against a set reference of religion is something the weak-minded will grasp at, like a man in the desert will grasp his water bag. Never mind the bag being empty, or, in this case, full of lies. As long as the illusion of water/"the right thing" is available, someone like GS or Bin-Laden will jump at the chance of reaching/doing what they believe is good. There's the tricky part of religion, if you take action based on your faith, and you believe your faith to be good/right/the only truth, the actions you take on behalf of that religion will be based on good intentions. Unfortunately, the road to hell is paved, with just that.
Now about not being able to penetrate the shield of beliefs radicals have.
What, do we, as human beings, know for absolute certainty?
 - conception-birth-life-death (eat that anti-abortion dudes)
 - politicians lie for a living (wonder why so many actors make good politicians?)
 - we know nothing else for certain (even that is not certain)
right now, an unknown big piece of rock from space could wipe out my countrymen and me.
the indians (dunno which) might be right about this being the dream world, and our dreams being real.
If only a tiny bit of the uncertainty of life could make its way past the brain-washing done by religion, and media, I believe it would make a huge difference in man's attitude towards each other, the planet, and animals.

Then again...

By writing this down, and making you read it, I might have wasted both our valuable times. But there is a slim possibility, that in some future event, either of us will think back to this "editorial", and use it to come to one decision or another. Being that nothing is certain, and even that is uncertain, might i have given us bad advice? I know, no-one will read this attentively enough to grasp the details, puns, and oddities, and controversies, let alone use it as any part of his/her dicision-making in the future. But then again...


http://www.amicc.org/docs/UStimeline.pdf (http://www.amicc.org/docs/UStimeline.pdf) <= will download a pdf timeline for USA policy towards the ICC


_{thank you for taking the time to read all this. i cannot judge the coherency right now, being as it is 4:15 a.m. local time. so i would be MOST GRATEFUL to anyone willing to point out faulty arguements, bad facts, or any contradictions i have created for myself.}

Good post MacMan...so I shall proceed to nitpick you on an insignificant point. I assume I was under your "left-wing tree-hugger" category. I would like to think having my eyes open enough to notice that global warming is happening and is not based on some conspiracy theory does not classify me into the far left on the environment. I'm rather moderate on environmental/energy policy...and most political issues really.  But like I said, that is neither here nor there, good post.

If people think the war in Iraq is the only departure from the world that the Bush Administration took, they are not reading. The Bush Administration has backed out of so many international treaties. World Court, Kyoto, etc. Too many Americans feel we are above everyone else. I mean, the Bush Administration is actually yelling at other countries not to develop WMD while they are asking for approval to develop new nuclear weaponry themselves...nuclear weaponry they actively intend to use. They think, "hey, if we make it small enough, no one will mind that it is a WMD." Well unfortunately when we do something like that, it justifies others, including terrorists, to do the same. The US may think it plays by different rules because it is most powerful, but they'll find others will play by our rules and it won't be to our benefit.

The odd thing about feeling morally superior is that everyone does. Terrorists do what they do because they think it is right just as we do. Now, there probably are objective standards at some point, but it is very dangerous to get where the US has in thinking it couldn't possibly do something that isn't actually moral. (Just like we didn't commit any atrocities in Vietnam...according to the people who hate Kerry for his testimony to the Senate...all those women and children were VC damnit.)

thank you bondo, but, in retrospect, it is slightly incoherent.

the "left-wing-tree-hugger" denotation is partially my way of equalizing the terms on which i speak of 2 parties. Calling conservatives "right wing nuts", and liberals just "liberals" felt unfair to me. The other part is me making fun of myself, as I am rather socialist-ecological-monarchist-anarchistic myself.

There are many, many things worth discussing this election.

I think the trouble is there are too many.  

The range of failure for this administration is epic. How can we even begin to discuss it when it is so vast, so blatantly there?  Sometimes the hardest things to discuss are the ones we all recognize.  Truely, Bush is protected not by the success of his polices but by the scope of their failures.

What Kerry needs to do, and what we've seen slowly developing, is focus on a few obvious issues.  Healthcare, Iraq, and the treasonous fearmongering of the Republicans.

It would be nice to take Bush to task for all the evil he's perpertrated in teh past four years.  But, there is so much!  Focusing on obvious failures of significant scope is the key to success.  After we've kicked him out then we can start fixing America.

Mac man that was a inpressive post and a great read..

One thing i wanted to highlight especially after reading the paper today


... Todays, no maybe yesterdays paper had a short article commenting that the fist soldier from the Abu Gharib trials has been sentenced. seven months for commiting torture
- a little unbalenced punishment don't u think?

All this and then i read the following article (sorry its a bit long!)

That was one bunch of sick puppies, at abu ghraib. And 7 months of prison (in the USA, with cable tv, airco, good food, and a gym), seems, to me, completely out of proportion to what the guards did.
Perhaps learning from the enemy might be useful here. Steal a car in countris under islamic law, and you lose a hand (or two), etc. What might these guards lose under islamic law?

Was this treatment ordered/suggested by superior officers? If so, i would agree with this mild punishment, but would like to see the CO(mmanding officer) incarcerated in a place like.. uh.. guantanamo bay? Would any military court in the USA sentence someone to go there? Of course not! [pun]You can't treat CIVILIZED people like animals, the cable-tv brainwashing might wear off.[/pun]
Am I wrong to claim, that we should not judge a people on how they treat their friends, but on how they treat their enemies?

And sixhits, you're so damn right. I'd like to compare the mistakes this admin. made with the horizon. It's too big (or in case of curvature, too slight) to clearly see. But once you step back, and look at the big picture in RETROSPECT (everything is clearer in retrospect), it's obvious the horizon, and it's curvature (the mistakes) are in fact, unlimited.
So what do you do? Pick landmarks of course. Monuments. Monumental stupidity.

my 2 eurocents.