*DAMN R6 Forum

Hey everyone,
Well this summer has been similiar to most, very boring. So to take up my time, a couple days ago I started on a gameranger client. I am creating it in C++ using the wxWidgets GUI toolkit, which is cross-platform :). Which means with the source code, little modifications are needed to port it to other OS's. I decided to do this open source, and share my findings with everyone, because i'm sure other people are interested too. You can visit my application's page at:

http://gameranger.sourceforge.net

Here is a screenshot of the program compiled and running on windows xp:
http://gameranger.sourceforge.net/gameranger.jpg

If you have any questions for me please feel free to contact me on AIM, screenname xoclipse, or just email me @ xoclipse@cox.net. I hope you guys find this very informative and enjoy the source code. Right now i don't have access to a mac, so i can't compile it for mac os x yet. If anyone is willing to help me, please let me know!

Bye,
xoclipse

Um... What are you doing?

First of all, that appears to be blatant copyright infringement, and Evill could probably sue your ass to hell and beyond.

Second of all, I for one don't want PC players on GameRanger. Even if this would be used just for people's work computers, there's the chance of it getting into the public, and then gameranger would be totally stormed by PC users.

Please... don't release that.

And also, for your own sake, consult Evill before you do anything more, regarding legality issues.

omfg, lahl, hillus

Sorry for posting again... but after reading what I wrote, I don't think I was strong enough.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!

GameRanger was designed to be mac-only!

The entire point of GameRanger was to be a place where mac users could play games together without the chaos and hell of the PC world!!!

Destroy it now! Before it's too late!

I have to agree that I like GR to be mac only, but if you are capable of coding something like this why not focus on making a legal alternative.

Interesting. How much stuff can this client do on a PC?

I would think joining a game would not work. As games that use GR are modified to handle GR with added code and stuff that the PC versions would not have. And there is those plugin things GR use's.

Anyone with a PC tested this to actually see if its real? and what its capable of?

Will be interesting to see what Evill dose.

Ross

It really works.

I just had my friend test it out on his Windows XP PC.

here, I just uploaded the screenshot to my geocities site: http://www.geocities.com/krusader321/untitled.JPG (http://www.geocities.com/krusader321/untitled.JPG)

He tried joining a game? I am sure that would not work.

if the link doesn't work when you click it: manually copy it and paste it in url box and it should load. sorry for dbl post

It appears that Xoclipse wrote this from scratch, and he didn't use any of Evill's source code. Doesn't look like copyright inifringement to me. He didn't copy anything, he just created something new from scratch.

I'm not really sure why Snipe thinks this is a copyright issue.

Ross, it's a copyright infringement because it's a reverse-engineered version of Gameranger, which is against the EULA. Not only that, but it's named "GameRanger" (Ross, I suppose that's not copyright infringement, is it?), it uses the exact same GUI + icons + graphics, and uses the same proprietary protocol that Scott's GR uses.

xoclipse, I might try to compile it for OSX later tonight... I'll see how that goes.

I'm not a big expert on this copyright stuff, but I DO know that I would cease to use GameRanger if PC users were ever allowed to.

didnt read anything
but probably vnfgj xoclipse
gl hf

Blufire: Yes, it's against the EULA, but did xoclipse ever sign the EULA? Heck, did xoclipse even USE the gameranger client to reverse engineer it? Who knows. It is named "Gameranger Client" which it is. That might be a Trademark violation, but not a copyright violation (as you know). It actually doesn't use the same GUI, it's just a similar layout, but the GUI is run by wxwidgets, instead of Quartz APIs. It uses the same protocol,  but that's never been a crime. Last I checked the protocol wasn't patented, and since xoclipse doesn't implement the protocol in the exact same way that evill does, but rather built the implementation from the ground up, I don't believe that it's breaking any copyrights.

Also, it's not a trademark violation. According to the USPTO (United States Patent and Trademark Office), "GameRanger" is not a registered trademark in the United States of America.

Ok, how about this for an example:

Hemingway wrote The Old man and the Sea. Suppose I found a copy of it online. Now, I don't want to violate Hemingway's copyrights on it, so instead of copy/pasting the entire thing, I type it all out in Appleworks and slap the same title on it. It's still copyright infringement.

so what if it is!
let Evill  worry about it

1st) The Old Man and the Sea is no longer under copyright. It's too old.
2nd) Xoclipse did not copy the source code, he rewrote it from scratch. The equivalent to this in your (rather unrelated) example would be taking the basic plot line of The Old Man and the Sea and rewriting it with new characters, new locations, and a different style of writing. This is done with books, movies, and music all the time.

THIS is  a FACT all the movies,songs ect are rewritten all the time 8)

Okay, coming from the perspective of a fellow coder such as myself, it is quite literally impossible that he could have built this from the ground up. You'd need to at least connect to GameRanger's servers to analyze the protocol, which in itself is effectively agreeing to the EULA. If that isn't, then using his client to connect to GR certainly is a huge signature of the EULA.

Also, it really doesn't matter what API he used to build the GUI. The fact is that it's IDENTICAL (no, not just similar). Check the screenshots.

Ross why defend something so lame. This is a threat to the entire community because now code is out for PC and anyone who cares can use it to make a completely working rewritten GR. It's fucked up and stupid. I don't want that, no one I know on Gr wants that. If you want to kill the community go make your own client that runs off it's own servers.

If xoclipse played his cards right, he could easily replace GR, which, from what I've seen of his work, is what he wants to do.

It's interesting to note the similarity of this to something RealNetworks has done:
http://news.com.com/RealNetworks+breaks+Apple%27s+hold+on+iPod/2100-1027_3-5282063.html?tag=nefd.pop


First: I'm glad you're a programmer, I'd hate for this thread to be monopolized by non-coders who don't have a clue what they're talking about.
Second: I'd have to agree with you it's practically impossible that he could have built this without using a packet sniffer, analyzing the communications from the real client.
Third: What is the importance of the EULA anyways? What's the punishment for breaking it? Generally with agreements such as TOS's and AUP's, the punishment is merely not being able to receieve the services anymore. It seems the only thing Scott could really do is terminate service to Xoclipse. ALso, this new client does not have the EULA that Scott's does, and there is no EULA for the server software itself, so connecting to the server with this new client does not break any Agreements.

Xoclipse could only do this if he had a better product than Scott Kevill, and if he has a better product than Scott Kevill, then I don't think this is anything to worry about. However, this open source client isn't fully functional yet, and it still employs the use of the GR server, so I don't see a replacement service coming up very soon, making this issue moot.

I haven't read the EULA in a while, but I'm pretty sure it states that simply connecting to the GameRanger server is an agreement with the EULA. If it doesn't say that, Scott can just change the EULA without warning.

You make good points, though... the only thing Scott could do would be to ban xoclipse's client from joining gameranger.

And yes, I don't see this replacement service thing coming up any time soon, I'm just saying xoclipse could do it if he wanted to by making a free, more complete service. Since it's open source, he could gather up a team to do just that...

Anyone feel like uploading the EULA somewhere and posting a link to it? I have an iMac but I'm running Gentoo Linux on it, so I can't read the GR EULA.

Plus I'm still not sure what the consequences of violating the EULA would be.

Also, the fact that it logs onto the GR server without Evill's consent is a violation enough. It could almost be considered hacking, wouldn't it? If I'm not mistaken.

Awesome!! about time.. . ( Drunk, I hold the right to change my reply tomorrow)

A lot of these issues only the courts could decide, because they're the ones who define the law, but some food for thought:

Perhaps it does have Evill's consent. The rationale for this is because Evill's server software authenticates it and gives it the go ahead to participate on the GR network.

It is indeed hacking. Xoclipse "hacked up" quite an impressive piece of software. The question is whether it's illegal or not. I haven't found any laws that are clearly broken (though a few that would take a court case to decide).

I think the outcome of Apple vs. RealNetworks will provide us with insight as to whether this is legal or not.

::)

HEY can any one tell me how to recover my damn password can't log in to change profile?
 ???

Im not really sure if this violates any laws whatsoever. If Evill were in the USA then of course it would be the DMCA but Evill is in Australia. That makes me wonder if even the trademark applies because its Trade Marked in Australia and not over here, dont take that one at face value i am not by any means a lawyer...

But anyway, maybe he is right, i mean an old Carbon application like GameRanger whose admins ban people while they are offline (me :() may have its day come pretty soon. I think much better can be done for the community, especially considering this app is the only choice we have.

Now that I am banned I guess I speak more freely, because I no longer fear a ban... I say this not because I am banned but because I am unhappy with the service... Guys, we can do better.

I guess my real question is if something better were to appear, would you use it? Not that this is, of course, I am as unhappy with windows users on our network, or moreover, your network, as you are... Think about it...

Xypher

I'm very happy with GR's service. Extremely happy, and not just because I'm a freeloader, either. I've never had a problem with Evill or an admin or anything. As long as you play by the rules, it's all good. I don't want some crappy service that won't have the balls to ban people. I'm glad that there's some order on GR. We have some pretty weird, twisted, and homoerotic conversations on GR, and they don't ban us. Unless you're impersonating someone, breaking international law, or bashing the hell out of Evill, they leave you alone.

Well why doesn't someone alert scott to it? He can take pertinent legal action, and stop this threat from killing our community.


(and before you yell at me for being a snitch, evill reads these forums, so it was your own dumb idea to post it here in the first place)

aww shucks, can you make a Win98 compatible version xo? i think it should only be allowed for ex-mac players who have gone pc. that's fair right? i still own a mac you know, it just sucks fat shlong.

Bronto, mac users that go to the PC side (henceforth known as the Dark Side) should be shot.  Repeatedly.  And that means you.

Anyhow, i think we need a real, honest to god lawyer to figure out what is and isnt illegal here, with xo being in the U.S. (or wherever, just not australia) and Evill being in Australia, its going to be a quagmire to figure out.  Wonder what'll happen...

I don't think we need to worry about it. He's not trying to build an empire of loyal users quietly, nor build an entire service. It seems that this is just a proof-of-concept demonstration, not made with any malicious intentions in mind. Just chill for now...

I find it funny that BluFire is supporting xoclipse.

The thing is...I honestly dont even think a lawyer would know. The laws are not set on these issues yet, there aren't any real precedents. However, I don't see xoclipse's client doing Evill any harm, I mean it's not like Evill is losing money...all the premium features can be controlled by the server, so perhaps Evill could work with Xo to help Xo build this client so that the new users it can bring in will buy premium.

New peecee users? Please god no, it theres anything that will doom GR as surely as a whole horde of 12 year old cs addicted hackers will, then...well, I can't figure out a way to finish that, but pc+gr=bad news

This is stupidity that should be stopped now. I don't want those PC trolls on GR. Especially not the ones who left macs for PCs.

PC GR...

LOL,
I can't wait until the convo's get even better when the teeny boppers fill in with:

"????1337h4xxor?????.(*)????: says poo is cool and smell my finger"

GR is fun enough as it is, but I can't wait for 97869786969996987 retards yapping this every second.

I better get some more beer ready.

I don't want GR being overrun by PCers either. They'll just be using up server space and I doubt they'll be able to play any games with Mac users anyways. Very few games are mac-pc compatible nowadays. All this program is going to do is bring in annoying PC trolls who will be flooding GR with "MACS SUXORZ" and shit like that. Damn you to hell, xo. Damn you to hell. >:(

Couldnt help myself....i had to post. Just wanna say great job Xo. Maybe now we will see an increase in the skill level of people on GR and i wont always have to go to PC servers to find skilled players to play with. Maybe now we will have some skilled games....not enough talent on GR anyways. Although its illegal I hope it brings more to Gameranger.

You know, I'd be willing to bet anyone $50 that there is not going to be hordes of Windows users joining GR. They dont have a lot of game support on GR, so they'll stick with GameSpy for their needs. The only people joining will be those with close mac friends who play games that are also avilable on mac.

Some of you remind me of the USA during the Potato Famine of Ireland. "The Irish are Invading! Save Our Country!"

For real Ross. Why would PC's come mess with noobs anyways? When they can stick to lockedbox servers on CoD and play with the skilled players....oh wait mac players THINK they are good.....time for a wake up call i say.

jesus, and rebel takes this and twists it to show case his sick skill at games

I thought Rebel left the forum hehe. Oh well. Wb, lover. :) And no, PC users won't use GR to showcase their skills because the only games they'll be able to play with us are RS, GhR, and some others. If Xo has cracked GR's password encryption of games.

Rebel you aren't that good. And you just love to run your mouth because you know deep down you aren't that special. the last time you were really above the high level fo gamer was when you played RS. Even then you weren't some supreme player. Give ti up rebel, you want to move on from GR go read some PC forums and stop trolling.

Back on topic, why hasn't Xo or scot replied?

Thanks for indulging and removing any doubt about what an arrogant bastard you are!

Back on topic again, we want answers, Xoclipse.

true, true... we'll never be as good as them without PC cheats and hacks. fuckin' PC bastards would destroy every good game on GameRanger... >:(

You know, nothing is going to happen heh.

Predicted course of events:
Evill realizes his binary/plaintext protocol is easy to hack.
Evill fixes his binary/plaintext protocol.
Xoclipse's client is now useless.
Problem solved :)

It is not he who controls the client, it is he who controls the server that matters, trust me or not, I am a programmer :)

Xypher

Actually if Evill was smart he would speak to Xo and ask how he cracked it and how to best protect the network...

Xypher

Rebel's just a wannabe.

I honestly see a lot of talk about "communities" and what not, but to be honest I don't see a GameRanger "community" that deserves to be held in the high regard that some of you still have it. I have been on GameRanger a few times in the last couple weeks and I almost see a mirror image of PC gaming apps - not much interaction amongst players in general chat areas, with a majority of what was scrolling across the screen being the opening and closing of games. I would honestly understand the concerns of many of you if GameRanger was like it used to be with a relatively tightknit group of people who all played the same games, all contributed to conversations and what not in chat, and maintained an active presence on the GameRanger client - not just sitting there with idling rooms or being afk for 8+ hours. But if you guys still want to think that you are that much different from a PC gaming "community" then go ahead, but others will see the light and realize that you are no different except for the fact that you play on Macs.

As for a cross-platform GameRanger, I must agree the person above who said that PC users would not flood it and that it would be mostly ex-GR users and friends of GR users who would bother to download and use the application. PC users have superior resources at their disposal when it comes to gaming, so they wouldn't bother to download such a limited program (in terms of compatability and selection of games) to harrass people.

I think this would be a fun experiment, but I do not see Kevill following suit and picking this up as a pet project since he seems to be proud of the fact that he runs the largest Macintosh only gaming service available.

I can see bored PC users invading GR and being annoying little bastards, because there would be little to stop them if an admin wasn't on. There's no purpose for them using GR other than to chat or raise hell. They won't be able to play games, unless XO has broken the password encryption, in which case they'll only be able to play a very small handful of them.

We are different because you have the chance to have a opinion on everyone who plays the game and you'll notice a new face. There correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think one could know everyone who plays a certain set of games GameSpy as well as those who plays a set fo games on GR.

Heh... I talked with him on AIM for a bit. He's really not a bad guy, and I definately don't think he wants to invade GR with PC users like we all fear. I agree that we don't need hoardes of PC users on GR, but this is just a little amusement... a "what if". Who knows, maybe the community can use it to build a whole new service later on...

Myst, you dont recognize new faces on GR though these days, unless you play for hours every day. There are hundreds of thousands of new members every year and it is growing harder and harder to know each Raven Shield/GhR player.

GR isn't what it was 2 years ago; such as the iBeer (yoda) convos, the AK flame wars, the 16 member-TOPs Bar and Grill, and Typhy/Rapid bashing.

Nowadays with the leaving of certain key personalities, the arrival of Premium membership, and more and more new people, GR has lost it's sense of personal communal ties for me.

I have moved on and adopted a heavier social life in its stead.

GR isn't missed, it has just lost my interest.

correct me if im wrong, but i think the pc versions of many of the games that are popular on the mac are different releases of the same game.  For example, our AOM maybe version 1.04, but the version of AOM on pc is 1.06 (I don't know what version AOM is i just used it as an example).  Therefore I think the games would be incompatible for cross-platform multi player hindering the development of a cross platform GR.

Just have to throw this in, it's about as on topic as Rebel's post.

7-5, Rebel, 7-5. Shame I have to go find skilled players to actually challenge me, can't waste time playing with newbies like you who I can beat 7-5 with such ease. 7-5, Reb, 7-5. :D

Get Ultimo back on GR anyway you can Xo, woot!  :)  Doesn't Ejo have a PC now too?

as i'm reading this, i'm constantly asking myself why people seem to want to constantly reinvent the wheel, and produce copies/clones. It would be far more challenging to invent something new, or at least implement a proven technology in a different, better way.

and why is everyone so keen to have PC users on GameRanger?

im pretty bored so maybe ill get into this. Not all PC doods cheat. some do yea, and i still dont understand why. it's just a game. why would someone waste their time gettin cheats? anyways, 7-5 typhy wtf does that mean? maybe some cb score or sumthin. i have no clue wut this whole thing is about. PC guys comin on GR. nah why would they waste their time with that shit. but i usally read all these posts sumtimes when im bored and see how all these people waste their time talkin shit to eachother. i am now kinda hah. but only when im bored and this is my first post. hmm so why do people talk shit to eachother on GR and why do people think PC doods cheat? because they are better then you? its a came come on who cares if they are bettter. some cheat yes but who cares? obviously u guys do. Civic as one example. by the looks of his posts it doesnt look like he likes  PC guys too much. maybe cuz they are a lot harder to play. Well i have no idea wut i just typed so ill just post and see how many people talk shit to me, cuz thats computer games for ya! peace out. feel free to talk shit. im all ears. hyb out

Elan, the support for this GR is a lot smaller that it appears. So far almost everyone who's actively in on these forums and still have access to GR have posted against it. The only 3 who seem to be completely defending it are baz, blufire, and Ross. (waves viper cause he just wants that damn ult and eho back ;) ) But either way if ti came down to any sort of vote the vast majority of GR players would vote against it.

Of course, I do.

http://home.comcast.net/~electronicjo/gr-piece-of-cake.gif (http://home.comcast.net/~electronicjo/gr-piece-of-cake.gif)

This is a bigger piece of cake jo:

http://www.fraghosts.net/oldgr.jpg

Edit: And 2 more where that came from:
http://www.fraghosts.net/anotheroldgr.jpg
http://www.fraghosts.net/anotheroldgr1.jpg

OMG.

The jo.

He lives.

Ack, my piece of cake came out all deformed!

http://www.matrixcg.net/stuff/uglycake.jpg (http://www.matrixcg.net/stuff/uglycake.jpg)

<shakes head at all this> So now the PCer's can talk? That's great. GR better get some troll patrol out there.

Mysterio, I think you need to calm down until we know more about Xoc's Gameranger client and see how Evill responds to this.

Is this project officially through? Or does it live on?

It is an open source project, so not only xoclipse is working on this PC Gameranger client.  Not sure if it is "official" though, seems to be in development stages still.

 :o >:(

WHAT THE **** IS THIS ******s PROBLEM!!!!! GAMERANGER: MACINTOSH GAMING SERVICE.  YOU STUPID TRAITOR WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!

 ??? ::)

One shut up, we all know you a PCer but you can't afford to switch no matter how sad that sounds.

Damnit.. Pc users dont come to Gr.. its not yourp lace.. you have your gaming space, we have ours.  And besides.. you dont want us to humiliate you do you?... cuz we will. but yea.. if thers a way to ban pc. please do it

My clan and another from GR have recently participated in a cross platform tourny with PC users in Ghr. These people were very cool guys, very helpfull and friendly.

 I myself wont not object to have afew PC users over to play Ghr. Infact I think it would help the Ghr community. I think it would offer more challenges and I'm sure many mods and tournys would be available for Mac.

My point is: as long as we don't support PC only games like cs :-X and maybe had a some mac only chat rooms it wouldn't be soo bad.

But as Ghr is the only game I play on ghr I'm not sure how it would affect the reest of the GR community.

Dark, there are a few good guys out there, but ti switched around like here, we may have a few bad ones, ie Rapid, romulus, but the majority are nice. You understanding? As KungPow said, they have their services we have ours.

incase you don't understand how it works, i'll enlighten you. PC users would only come if they could get something they want. since PCers can only play on a couple games with mac users, a very small croud would come, and they wouldn't come to harass people like some of you are suggesting. they would come to play, and that's about it. why are you so offended by this?

They have plenty of places to play on their platforms. They want to talk to us we use AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc. There is no way you can deny that there are, in % of population, more PC cheaters than macs.

i, a person who actually plays with pcers, can vouch that very few actually cheat, and on the rare occasion, it's completely obvious and they are immediately kicked. it's just a bad stereotype that mac users started using, when pcers started bashing macs. i can assure you that neither side should be talking, because it's just simply not true.

No use in fighting it Bronto. I also know that many dont cheat and with the correct anti cheat programs u keep those bad apples out of servers, but most mac people think that PC guys hack although they dont because of the insane smack down delivered to them. Many, like Myst, who seem to think they are God's gift to the world have not opened their eyes to this yet. Back in the RS days, i played with a PC clan in their server and found that although i was one of the best on GR for RS, i was nothing compared to the PC'ers. This awakened me and maybe some of you need it to. Oh yeah BTW Typhy, wow u beat me good job. Not to hard to win in a game that is more of a lag test then a shooter. And i cant really tell if your trying to be funny or trying to aggrivate me but basically, u get CoD and ill rape u, period.

We're not saying all PC users are cheaters or all PC users are going to troll. However, a bunch of bored, 12 year old PC users are gonna come across the app one day and think "Hay u guyz, letz go on t3h mac game f1nd3r and fuck wit dem" and then there'll be a dozen bastards "raiding" GR. I honestly don't care if some of your PC friends want to come onto GR and chat with you. But come on. You can chat on AIM and MSN and Yahoo and all that garbage if you just want to chat. It seems like this was just made to stick it to Evill and piss him off. There's a reason GR is mac-only. Evill wanted it that way, and so does the community. PC users have tons of exclusive, PC-only things, we deserve a mac-only thingamajig, too. Segregation all the way. Mac bathrooms on the left, PC bathrooms on the right.

Sorry for the double-post, but you guys are acting like all PC users are Saints. If no PC users cheated, there wouldn't be a need for Punkbuster. In 1.0.3 CoD, there were tons of cheaters. It was pretty damn hard to get them banned from servers, too. I played RS with a lot of PC guys back in the day, and there were a few cheaters, yet nobody seemed to care enough to boot them. Pissed me off.

heh, this screenshot was taken in January?  How has Evill not noticed that you've been using it this long?  Can't he tell if people from another program are logging onto his server?

Rebel, this isn't about skill. Yes, PC players are skilled, and yes, there are a lot of PC hackers. But you must realize that they get games on average a year before us. This is about keeping the community loyal to true hardware and innovation. Not hacking cheating PC fags.

Mysterio, I am no PCer. The last PC I had was a 33mhz Gateway in the early 90s'. I have a Dual 2ghz G5.  However, I do play with PCers through Medal of Honor's built-in GameSpy multiplayer program.  


Mr. Mellow, we are the minority and the only different thing is it isn't totally a bad thing, I mean we enjoy being "segregated" from PC users to a certain extent.


On a side note, Rebel is correct about some PC users being more skilled than the best in the Mac community.  If Gameranger does become PC compatible, than that could effect Apple as well.  The thinking would be for a hardcore mac gamer: "I can buy a more porwerful PC cheaper and still access GR."  But, only some are like that, as we all know we are mostly loyal to macs.

Not really. Evill could put a stop to it if he wanted to, it just hasn't been a problem, or noticeable at all.

I'd still like to see Evill sell GR to Apple. Apple really needs to reach out to gamers. A lot of revenue comes from Teens and Adults who buy gaming machines.

Ok, due to popular request i will get to the point of all my posts. Here it goes.

PC USERS WONT DL GR

Thank you.

Agreed.

you funny people and your thinking that a mac was meant for gaming.

If you take your gaming seriously, go get a PC.  Trust me, you will be a better player becasue of it.  They just run games smoother, period.

Why in the hell would you buy a mac strictly for gaming on?  Thats not a wise decision and a waste of an expensive machine.

And to all you mac heads that are talkin about ownin' PC users, PC users suck, blah blah blah....  you have the same mantality as all the stupdass PC users that talk smack about macs, so you are no better.  LOL

The majority of PC users wont even use this Cross-Platform Gameranger anyway....  only the select few that have friends on MACs would use it, and even if there was an influx of PC users that cvame to GR, you can choose what server you want to join, cant you?

Seriously, some of you mac heads have your heads so far up your own ass, i wonder how you are able to post in the dark.  Oh ya, your elite mac users, you can do anything.

hm, spell the words in your posts correctly, and then i might not write you off as another pc moron.

Mister Devil's Advocate is one of the reasons I'm glad for mac-only communities.  ;D No, I'm not one of those "FUK U PCERZ" people. I just don't like snooty, snippy, sarcastic bastards such as yourself with no balls to post using your own name.

People need to realize that PCs were faster and had better graphics cards than mac, until very recently. And for the record look in a PC gaming magazine. The real, great, brilliant, gaming machines on PCs cost as much as a mid range G5 which will perform as well with better non-gaming applications.

Rebel pull you head out of your ass, you aren't that good. You never will be, the only reason you claim to leave is so you can come back and look like some sort of brilliant person by trolling on these forums. I don't think I'm god's gift to the earth, but I do think Apple is god's gift to computers.

Rebel when you wake up from your arrogance we can talk about how funny you were while you were crazy.

This topic seems to have suddenly veered into the dipshit lane.

I don't understand you.  Your writing style exudes an air of pompous ignorance, and then you run around accusing other people (seemingly for no reason) of similar arrogance ?
Oh, Myst said that?  Or did you?  I think Myst's OK, but you may want to turn down your Megalomaniac Dial a couple notches, cause it's difficult for me to tell if you're saying anything remotely important amidst the blaring self-congratulations.

Awakened you?  You sound like an audience member from Crossing Over.  Are you taking video games too seriously?  Do you need a glass of water?

Holy crap.

Shifting goalposts, eh?  Way to go, champ.

.........

I'm hoping to break into the game development industry professionally, so I certainly appreciate and identify with enthusiasm on the subject, but this kind of thinking seems ridiculously stupid to me.  When you forget that you're playing a fucking video game and start using them as some kind of sick metric for appraising yourself, I think you've crossed the line.

Go and get a hobby, Rebel.

Xoclipse, just curious, are you hoping to make this a viable solution for PC game-matching and see if Scott will let you develop it for Windows officially, or is this more of a just-for-fun project?  I'm thinking the latter, but just wonderin'.  And where is Scott for this discussion; his commenting could soothe some of the mounting tensions  ;D

Well Cobra, i started it as a just-for-fun project, although i'm sure it could amount to something else. Although I highly doubt Scott would allow me to develop it officialy, i'd probably be down for doing it.

Here's the latest build i've been working on: http://fraghosts.net/gameranger1.jpg

I didn't get a chance to look through the source code, but how far along are you in development?  You said you started a few days ago ? from the screenshots alone, you seem to have accomplished much in a very short amount of time!  Impressive.  Is it possible to actually join games on your client?  Or are you not that far along yet?  Are others working with you on it?

OK, that's all my questions   ;)  Thanks for your replies, Xo.

Cobra,
I actually started this project about 3 or 4 days ago, for this particular application, that is. As from the screenshots you saw, I had made previous ones. This new one is completely recoded in wxWidgets. Join game support is not implemented yet, although it might happen later. Well see, I'm just taking it step by step for now, working out bugs and such. Fixed a lot in the latest build, so i'm happy :). Right now i'm the only one working on this particular client.

xo, are you looking into my problem, or are you just gonna say 'fuck it update you skank'. if it's number 2, that hurts :(

bronto, i believe i compiled it with unicode support, and i might be using some gui controls that for windows requires NT/2000/XP, but you can go ahead and download wxwidgets, compile the source, and it will work for you. but i can't compile it for 98 or ME cuz i don't have it. oh yeah, upate skank  ;)

xo, as we already know, i'm a huge noob. i'm gonna give it a shot, but could i ask you in advance to walk me through any problems i might have? i'll try to un-noob my questions as much as possible..

sure, when i get back home tomorrow, flight leaves tomorrow in morning, so probably late noon i'll be on.

ok, when you come back i have a question: how the hell do i compile?

My cousin logged in on GR yesterday with his PC, it ran smooth until he tried to type which caused it to crash, twice. Only thing that made his account different than any other account on GR is that PC users don't get the blinking icon on the map, since the PC's don't have it built in like mac's do.

Account# 168933

Any word from Evill, whats his take on this?

it wouldnt surprise me if evill banned everyone involved in this. it would be a very evill thing to do.

Lmao. Myst i love the way that u have your own little bitch, Cobra. Do u have him on a leash? Sure seems like it. Every time you post, your little pet posts right after u bashing the same way u do. But here is my statement. Although I am still a mac user, i am different then the rest. What seperates me from you is that im ready to back up all my comments with force. If u dont think im that good PROVE it! Cause when i say im still one of the best, im ready to back it up. Also, whats with you lately? There was a point in time in which you didnt run your mouth like an arrogant bitch but now all of a sudden you do, in all threads. Frankly, i dont give a damn what you say. If you would like to test me then fine. Other then that please dont talk shit unless your ready to back it up. Oh yeah, and Cobra, I have a hobby, and its going to pay well for college, its called being an all county baseball player and having a 4.4 GPA. Myst if i were u id talk to your little pet and calm him down before his noobness comes out...oh wait to late.

Rebel, I can safely say you're back from your short retirement.

So much for leaving the forums and giving a crap what others think here, lol. Forum whore!  ;D

Would it be safe to ban someone who can make something with direct competition.... especially some open source thing?

All it takes is a bit of funding and xo can have his own servers running...
Lets keep in mind what uses this can have.. Playing with PC guys... bad bad bad....! Why would  PC guys play with us hated mac heads? Who play all the old games compared to the pc world?
I dunno....

1 use that i thought this could be good for are those people at work during the day bored off their asses... maybe not even bored but like to have a window open to chat with their buddies... So then letting PC people who are generally mac, who are apart of the community, on GR, wouldn't be so bad.

That's my take on it...

The windows version doesn't sort the users by Premium Membership? Blah.

I can back up everything I say in RvS Rebel. Hell I probably still could in RS if it worked on my G5. You need to open your eyes rebel. You really need to look around and notice that you aren't the best there is. PC competition in CoD, your game, will probably be higher for the next month or so until the mack players all, not saying some haven't, but all catch up.

You need to back off everyone rebel. You may think you're the god of CoD but sooner or later there's going to be a lot more people up there with you, if you even are good, and take you down.

You want to become the Rapid of CoD Rebel? By all means try it. See where it gets you. I really doubt someone as arrogant and foolish as you are that good compared to most mac CoD players. You need to open your eyes rebel. That's all I can say, open them wide and realize what you are doing. Realize what you are becoming.

I think you will be able to figure it our for yourself.

Now that everyone's let out their steam, I think we can all safely say that those have been using this thread to toot their own horn can stop now. They know who they are. Not gonna name any names. Back to the issue at hand! PeeCee GeeArr.

ok let me say
i think what you've done is amazing and i fully support you
please carry on these guys r being completely selfish
its not fair on people like me who have imac 333's who cant play anything on gr apart from aoe2 -_-;
i just got a pc 2 days ago and im missing gr gamespy sux aswell to many adds and idiots
so i think you should carry on and DONT LET THE IDIOTS DISCOURAGE YOU!

Please let us idiots discourage you, XO. Please?  ;)

asd, we aren't idiots, we just have different perspective on this whole PC Gamerannger client.  Everyone has their own opinion.

asd, just because you have changed your ways doesn't mean we should give a damn you now regret your choice. You are a PC user who should play on PC clients. Get it??

HEY, DOES ANYONE LIKE BLUEBERRY PIE??  :)

Given the the blatant EULA violations and opposition from current GR members I doubt Scott will let this little project go to a full release. Furthermore, I cannot support the expansion into Windows given the reputation and actions of a number of PC gamers, specifically, cheating. While I know that not everyone in the Windows world is guilty of cheating I think we would all agree that nothing is less enjoyable than trying to play a game with someone who cheats like crazy. However, if measures were put in place to allow those who chose not to cheat to separate themselves from those who do I would support an expansion as long as it had Scott's blessing and oversight. Unfortunately that is not what we see in this open source release. Instead we see our beloved GR on the verge of being swamped by the PC gaming community in a situation where Scott Kevill appears to have been run around, had his code taken, and screwed out of a massive business opportunity (that he may or may not have chosen to pursue) for the program HE developed.

However, I must point out that there would be possible advantages to the controlled integration of Mac and PC gaming communities on GR. When I say controlled integration I mean something along the lines of the option of creating Mac or PC only room, some method of cheat prevention, and consequences for cheaters. Also, the increased membership could bring more games to GR and encourage companies to have more dual platform releases. Translation: More games come to Mac, we have more people to play with, and we have more game servers.

BUT! I don't see this open source app doing any of those things! Gents we must oppose this app! We must protect the integrity of our gaming community! In short, we must support the expansion of GR only when that expansion is legally sanctioned by Scott! Therefore, until Scott approves this project and some guarantees are made I cannot support it.

Just my thoughts on the matter,
Forrest

P.S. I don't have anything against lawful open source development or Xo personally. But I do believe he went too far without Scott's approval. Additionally, I do not claim to speak for Scott Kevill.

Good talk forrest 8)


now if GR would come out for PC how the fuck could we play with them? i'm like if we take OUR GhR updates... and DBL maps... how could they update/install/use em. ? thats a question !

OK, NOW I'M REALLY PISSED OFF.

WHO'S THE FUCKING RETARD DELETING MY POSTS ? AND WHY ?

...oops!

As it would appear that several of you are debating the legality of this possibly (VERY) illegal software, i think i'll take it upon myself to share with you, some excerpts from the (official) GameRanger EULA. the most relavent portions will be formatted in bold, and some non-relevant portions will be omitted. Here goes...



(the full EULA is automatically installed with the (original) GR software, in the same folder as the app itself, when it is installed.)

for those of you not well-versed in legalese, what this says, basically, is that GameRanger (including, but not limited to the name itself, the software, and the COMMUNICATION PROTOCOLS are copyrighted by Scott Kevill, and are protected by Australian law, and if necessary, could be applied to the laws in any other jurisdiction.

furthermore, by the mere act of using GameRanger using its communication protocols, and connecting to GameRanger's server(s), you are indeed agreeing to accept and abide by the terms as they are laid out in that document.

and by releasing the source code to your (illegal) software, you are basically inviting people to "attempt to compromise the security of, or institute attacks on, any GameRanger servers or otherwise attempt to disrupt the operation of GameRanger for any user".

it would have been bad enough that you made the (illegal) client, but giving away the source code is like making unlimited copies of someone else's house keys, putting their name and address on them all, and scattering them about the city. I swear, you must be out of your gourd to have done something so incredibly foolish, shortsighted, and dangerous. I sincerely hope that nobody alters that code so that this client can be made to allow the users to do anything malicious, (ie. add file-sharing capabilities, give themselves admin powers, steal user information, etc.) :(

i would not be surprised if, right now, Evill were hiring an attorney and examining his legal options, and if that is so, i think i'd know who to place my bet on winning this. You should be aware that being ignorant of international law, is NOT an excuse for willfully (or accidentally) violating them.


- "Bardiel"

Bardiel, just to clear something up, (I completely agree with you), does the fact that it is said "This agreement is governed by the law in force in the State of Western Australia" does that mean that it does not have the same force in the US as it would there?

i don't think evill would sue someone as young as xo. and he does know xo is young.

I'm scared. I'm sure Scott would make a new app/server for mac users only if that moron xo succeeded with this. GR is supposed to be mac-only... if PC users come... GR will move... I hope...

why should he fuckin' care about his age? that shit he's doing is illegal!

Civic, that is perhaps the best thing said in this whole thread. Anyone know the answer to  my question yet?

it's wrong to sue a kid, because their parents end up paying. the mere threat of lawsuit would be enough to end it anyway.

bronto you are right, but the if he doesn't back down scott should follow through. Imagine how pissed your parents would be if you got sued... :-X

believe me, i almost did. pretty shitty time.

To Bardiel:

MINOR POINTS:
1st) Thank you for posting the EULA.
2nd) Your underlining of "software, data files" is completely irrelevant. He did not copy the software or data files.
3rd) The underlining of "communications" is quite relevant. Thanks for highlighting this.
4th) Xoclipse did not modify GameRanger, your inclusion of that clause was irrelevant.
5th) Xoclipse did not "disrupt the operation of GameRanger for any user", that clause is also irrelevant.

SUMMARY OF RELEVANT EULA INFORMATION:
1)"GameRanger is the copyrighted work of the author, Scott Kevill and GameRanger Technologies, and includes but is not limited to the...communication protocols."
2) "You may not... decompile, disassemble, or reverse-engineer GameRanger, or the communication protocols and data files it uses, for any reason including but not limited to emulation, custom clients, custom plug-ins, proxies, or "bots" "
3) "This agreement is governed by the law in force in the State of Western Australia, and the parties irrevocably submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of Western Australia. If any part of this agreement is held invalid or unenforceable, that portion shall be construed in a manner consistent with applicable law to reflect, as nearly as possible, the original intentions of the parties, and the remaining portions shall remain in full force and effect."

MAJOR ISSUES:
1) Is the EULA a legally binding document?
    A) The answer to this is muddy. Documents such as a TOS, AUP, SLA, or EULA agreement is only legally binding so far as it does not contradict any laws of the country/countries in which it applies.
    B) The EULA is a two way binding document. It also places restrictions on what Evill can do (more on this later)
    C) Xoclipse is a minor, and in both the United States and Australia he cannot be contractually bound to any document, whether he wants to be or not.
    D) Scott Kevill is a legal adult in both the United States and Australia, and thus is contractually bound to the EULA.
2) Because Scott Kevill is bound to his own EULA, he can only prosecute Xoclipse under Australian law, not USA law.
    A) The DMCA may not apply because of this.
    B) He has to get Xoclipse to Australia.
    C) Xoclipse doesn't have to go to Australia if he doesn't want to or gets deported by the US Government.
            1) The chance that Xoclipse will actually get deported to Australia is like 0.0001%
3) What are the possible consequences of the EULA?
     A) No consequences are mentioned in the EULA.
     B) Therefore, the most Evill can really do is say that Xoclipse's actions nullified the terms of the Agreement and refuse to provide Xoclipse with the service granted by the EULA.
4) Are there any possible criminal charges that could be brought upon Xoclipse?
     A) Only the US Government could press charges on Xoclipse. Scott Kevill gave up his right to do that with his clause that any court cases must happen in the jurisdiction of his Country and Province.
     B) The US Government doesn't give a **** about foreign corporations.
     C) It cannot be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Xoclipse did any *measurably* damage to Scott Kevill at all, in monetary costs.
5)  So what does the EULA actually do?
      A) The EULA only protects Scott's ass. What I mean by this is that his EULA is designed only so that no one can sue Scott Kevill, it is NOT designed so that Scott Kevill can sue other people.
      B) It gives Scott the freedom to do whatever the hell he pleases with GR and terminate service to anyone without fear of being sued by anyone.


CONCLUSIONS:
1) Scott can't prosecute Xoclipse.
2) Scott's only foreseeable recourse is to refuse to provide service to Xoclipse.
3) Xoclipse caused no damage to the GameRanger Technologies servers, network, or software.
4) Xoclipse did not cause any monetary damage to GameRanger Technologies.
5) Xoclipse may have broken some US laws, but Evill can't press charges on those, because he gave up his right to do that.




NOTE: I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. The disemmination of this information does not establish attorney-client privelege. This information may include fallacies and errors of fact.

Evill doesn't care, he needs money himself, and doing something like this interfere's with his ass.

Ross, you may indeed be correct, as i'm no expert on international or Australian law, but IF this does end up coming down to a legal dispute, i believe that Mr. Kevill will be better able to prove Xoclipse's guilt, than Xoclipse will be in proving his unequivocal innocence. but that's just my opinion. And the fact that he's a minor really wouldn't do much to shield him, as much as age shielded hundreds of minors from the RIAA's lawsuits in the past year. of course, that happened on US soil, under different circumstances (http://news.com.com/RIAA+takes+hundreds+more+'John+Does'+to+court/2100-1027_3-5243587.html), but i think i made my point. personally, i'd never underestimate the tenacity and determination of any persons and/or organizations that feel they have been royally screwed.

In any case, having this matter resolved by a court of law isn't Evill's only possible recourse. Thanks to the source code of the (illegal) client being freely available, he could download and examine it, and use the knowledge gained to write updates for GR so that it could automatically detect unauthorized clients, and accordingly perma-ban the account holders using them, block all unofficial clients alltogether, do BOTH, or anything else as he would see fit, in order to protect the security and integrity of his service. I was originally concerned about the source code being available like that, but i suppose it's a sword that could cut both ways, so GG.

if this is how this matter will be resolved, than my bet will still be on Evill. he has at least 2 options available to him, and this second one will probably be the one that seals it for him.

"Bardiel"

well why don't we just wait until the legal dispute then bardiel?

To me, Xoc's Gameranger almost looks the same as Evill's Gameranger.  Look at it this way, Gameranger with a different "theme".  I'm not a programmer so I can't comment if xoc is actually doing anything with the code, software or data of Evill's Gameranger.  But, until I get further information, I think Xoc is doing something illegal.  To cut to the chase, Xoc's Gameranger is a deformed clone of Evill's Gameranger.  Sure, it can be useful, but GR is a "mac-only gaming community", not a PC-Mac community, but that could all change.

The issue here is indeed completely different. The point is not whether he'll be charged as a minor or adult, but that he CANNOT enter into a legally binding contract, and thus he never legally agreed to the EULA. Only Scott is bound by the EULA. Xoclipse is not. (At least under US law).

This is all technically correct, but some things I'd like to point out
1) Kevill knew about the client more than 24 hours ago.
2) Kevill already has security features in place to ban third party clients.
    A) When logging in there is a checksum that has to be mathematically correct, made up of your IP, Ethernet Hardware Adress, and possibly some other information. This is how Evill bans computers, not just IPs. If the checksum is incorrect, you cannot log in.
    B) At the end of every packet there is a one bit checksum of the packet, made up of the number of packets that have been sent, the number of times that instruction has been sent, and something else. If this checksum is incorrect you get banned for 30 minutes for a "Bad Packet".
    C) Other random checksumming I forgot about.
3) Kevill could have redone the checksumming algorithms as soon as he found out about xo's client. It would have taken him max 30 minutes. This would have blocked Xoclipse for a good 6-48 hours until he went thorugh the assembly debugger and figured out the new checksumming. During this 6-48 hours Kevill could have integrated SSL packet encryption into GR with minimal trouble, and this would block Xoclipse for a good 6 months or so, if Xoclipse even wanted to continue the project after that.
4) Kevill could have easily done all that without even looking at Xoclipse's source code.
5) As I said, the only thing Kevill can do is refuse service to Xoclipse, and he can do this through the technical methods discussed above.
6) It's weird that he hasn't done anything yet.

Sorry for double post:

Daf - did you even read what I posted?

Insight  from a programmer's perspective, Xoclipse didn't do anything with the code of GR because only Kevill has the source code to GR. He could not have copied it, because the source code does not exist in the GR application we download. Xoclipse used a packet sniffer to view the informational packets that were being sent from his computer and built his entire application from the ground up, but made a "compatible" communication protocol to use with his client (which means he used the GR communication protocol).

Bronto - My point was that there wont be a legal dispute.

i was just saying wait til theres a legal dispute to dispute the legalities...just a bad joke.

Xo, the dumbass of the century. Man, why couldn't you leave well enough alone - Gameranger works well. If you want to make your own software, fine - but don't steal someone else's ideas.

More than anything, I can't believe the amount of disrespect for ideas that the "open source" movement has created. All of a sudden, ideas are worth nothing, and we should just copy peoples Intelluctual property? I bet Xo doesn't even OWN raven shield or ghost recon (or any of the games on his mac OR pc) - i bet he pirated them.

Show some goddammed respect for the creator of a product. Make a competitior if you wish, but don't steal his server and his protocol.

Or he doesn't even waste his time with video games like so many other people do here.

And i find it interesting you didn't show the same [or lack thereof] respect for open source in the Rogue Spear thread.

Oh but I did.  :P

He also posted publicly all the information with his source code.

So far, XO can be investigated for breaking 6 US Federal laws: 18 USC ? 1361-2, prohibiting malicious mischief; 18 USC ? 1831, prohibiting stealing of trade secrets; 18 USC ? 2314, prohibiting interstate transport of  stolen, converted, or fraudulently obtained material;  does apply to computer data files  U.S. v. Riggs, 739 F.Supp. 414 (N.D.Ill?1990); 18 USC ? 2319 and 17 USC ? 506(a), criminal violations  of copyright law; 18 USC ? 2510-11, prohibiting interception of electronic communications;

He can also be gone after in tort.  Anyone over 7 can be named in a tort, and with a tort, even though XO may not have jack shit today, in the US these decisions are valid for 20 years, so anything he makes in the next 20 years can go to pay off the tort decision.  

Ross, lose the nonsense about him being too young to enter a contract, since it's not how you read the laws, but how the court has deemed to apply them that counts.  Any court that finds him too young will just go after his parents, since they would then be considered the responsible parties, if he can't be considered responsible for himself.

Putting the code on sourceforge was a mistake.  

I can think of a dozen reasons why Evill would not react by just shutting down access by XO's code.  From the fact that it's not really functional yet to building a case for litigation to writing a more secure client and changing some protocols extensively.  

The fact that Evill hasn't posted here yet makes me pretty confident he's pursuing legal action. I think the shit is gonna hit the fan for XO pretty soon.

I love the double standard here: http://news.com.com/Is+Real%27s+iPod+%22hacking%22+legal%3F/2100-1030_3-5290814.html?tag=nefd.lede
Apparently large businesses can do whatever the hell they want, and cause serious fiscal damages, but a kid like xo can't do something nearly identical, that doesn't even cause monetary damages.

Ross, money isn't the problem.  It's the fact that most people on GR don't like the idea of PC users "invading" their mac-only gaming service.  Also, since this is open source, that could create more problems for xoc.

Also, XO doesn't have Scott's permission to make a PC version, and he definitely is using Scott's servers without his permission. So, in a way, with the bandwith used, he is costing Scott some money. Not much, but it's still something.

Again, if we made GR available to PC users... WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO PLAY A GAME THAT IS ALREADY A YEAR OR TWO OLD TO THE PC PEOPLE!!!

This program if it has no ingame/inchatroom availabilty, would be great for those who do work during the day and would like to chat with their buddies...

I mean seriously... A PC guy would hate coming to the mac world anyways..... Anytime there is a new and different idea, the community basically just goes off on how "gay" or "stupid" something is. I mean to a really annoying level, somewhat like prejiduce...(sp)

If, Xo is breaking laws... then watch out xo.... If he isn't then do your thing man... Just please DO NOT LET THE PC PEOPLE PLAY WITH US...

hey Xo...Seriously man.... PC cheats run through the world like a wildfire.

The same reason we want to play Rogue Spear. And hell, that's THREE years old...

Maybe because the idea is to actually ASK for rogue spear to become open source.

PC'ers never had to deal with change of OS, they can still play all those old games, right?

Hey everyone, just lookin at the thread and wondering where scott is...  why would he take so long to post?...

Apple will be going after REAL about this, they have already said they are investigating just which lines were crossed.  Gathering the facts.  Just like Evill could be doing.  What smart people do before litigating.  

Use your head before your mouth.

Spike.aHa.... nextime I'll runn spell checkk, like you, before i post.  So i mised a few letter, who cares?

A round of applause for Spike......  HE KNOWS HOW TO USE SPELL CHECK!!!!!

yaaa

Seriously, thats all you have to say?  You can only understand sentences if EVERY word is spelled correctly.  Thats pretty sad.  lol.


Snooty and sarcastic bastard?  Well if thats so, i guess i fit in around here, dont I?  Seems that my attitude is the norm around here.

no balls to post with my own name???  hahaha..... Thats funny cause this was my first posting and i have never registered to this site, and even if i posted my "real name"  you wouldnt know me anyway.

oh and BTW, who the hell said i didnt own a macintosh... infact i have 3 macs.....  an old 450mHz G3, a 12" powerbook and a 2GHz G5  

But i sure as hell didnt buy them to play games on.

Apple probabaly won't want to ruin the company, so they might just take the counter-attack and block Harmony shortly after Real releases. It's gonna be hilarious.

He has decided to not post.  I saw him browsing the forums a few days ago.

D Advocate you are hillus.  Also, this forum doesn't have a spell checker.


Oh yeah, I made a little movie about this: http://www.fanta.dk/news.asp?nid=8DBE6BDD-F386-4348-8220-A36185449746 (http://www.fanta.dk/news.asp?nid=8DBE6BDD-F386-4348-8220-A36185449746)

What does it mean that scott has decided not to post?




And yes, no spellchecker. It seems I have had some kind of education that has taught me the joys of grammar and spelling. Fancy that.



Edit: I spelled "grammar" wrong.  it was 1 in the morning. oh well

hey,
I'm happy to say i was able to compile the app under linux with only a few minor changes! I was using Fedora Core 2 on my x86, running KDE.  Here is a snapshot i took of the application running under linux:
http://www.fraghosts.net/gr-linux.jpg

All I can say is wxWidgets is an amazing toolkit.

Despite being disgusted, I'm quite impressed.

I think it means that he doesn't want to interfere, because he wants as much information as possible so he can take action against xo.  I think it also means that he doesn't want anything HE says to be used against him.  That is just the impression I get.

Yeah.  Unfortunately, you spelled "grammar" wrong.

Hmm.  So much for that.

Dude, don't try to steel my idea. It was I who made the petition, not you!

--

whoops I was wrong, I thought you meant that you had done the peitition. but then it hit me, you meant that you did the flash thing.

most of it.

Ethion, they are about to descend into chaos in 2006... or later when longhorn comes out they will experience the same transfer from OS9 to OSX.

Evill hasn't posted because he likely doesn't even care... he's got bigger things to think about than kids getting on GR with bootleg PC "clients".

I really don't think there will be waves of PC players. I do however think there will be waves of 12 year old trolls who are board off their ass and see that this is where a lot of mac people are.

Well, then evill, or the admins will quickly ban them. Its not hard to get banned from gr, even for people who know the rules. The admins will not look kindly on 12 year old pcers spamming the b+g. Plus, it'll make the membership numbers soar, making it look like gr just got mad popular, making evill look special. ;D

Mysterio you contradict yourself.

.....I would agree but for the lack of explanation.

How many games of RS any of you play now? You should be so lucky if PC players come in and bring life back to that dead ass game...

eight, it is dead because almost everyone has upgraded their machines.  The new machines are X not 9, but you already knew that.

One I always said there would be waves of PC noobs, I never said what they would be doing until hat post. And you are 100% correct about the reason I stopped playing RvS. If they let G5s boot 9 I would play RS over RvS.

Man, imagine the rs games you could play with a g5 and a broadband connection....drool

Heh.. yeah.  It would be like those old 68k games that look like they are going in fast motion because the computer is too fast... lol.

Well, the fact of the matter is that if Scott Kevill copywrited the Gameranger and since it was was based on Intellectual property he can easily prove that this is copywright infringement.  All Scott has to be able to prove is basically 4 things which shouldn't be a problem for the guy:

1.  He has to prove that Gameranger was designed for the Mac only which in this case wont be hard he can sue.
2.  That the source code was originally copied off of his design.  Again, not a hard thing to do since this is a client application he can sue.
3.  Prove that actually enough Mac users (Paying specifically) are diverted from going onto gameranger, therefore making Scott lose money from the prospect he can sue.
4.  If the PC application is sufficiently similar to his original program or therefore works in conjunction with it he can sue.

If any of these 4 reasons are proven Scott Kevill can sue for this issue.  Scott does not need to be based in the US for a lawsuit like this to take effect because intellectual property issues are not based on where you live but what the product is and what it is for.  Because it is an intellectual property case and he has copywrited it in Australia he can therefore sue anyone that breaches any of these copywright infringements weather in the US, or anywhere for that reason.   Here's how it works:

Scott has something going for him called Proper Venue, which states that he can bring suit where the cause of action ocurred or where the defendant resides that wrote the client code for the PC can be tried under the laws of that country for copywright infringement.  Or, Scott could choose to have the guy sued in Australia because he has that option.  In either event if the guy get's caught with distributing this breach of Australian copywright then Scott would have the choice of either suing him here in the US in a federal court where he is from or in Australia.  

So if I were him I would stop this as of now =)  Otherwise things could get messy for him in particular.  But then again that might be a good thing to give some money to Scott this way.  Maybe he will lower prices on premium.  

Also because he uses and calls it Gameranger client he can be sued for trademark infringement as well.  Basically the same thing implies for the issue with the copywright infringement as it does for Gameranger infringement ot I should say trademark infringement.  So, again, if you ever want to actually have a life after this I would stop now ;)

BTW, straight from a lawyer's mouth ;)

Saberian

Quote from Learn the Law:

He can also be gone after in tort.  Anyone over 7 can be named in a tort, and with a tort, even though XO may not have jack shit today, in the US these decisions are valid for 20 years, so anything he makes in the next 20 years can go to pay off the tort decision.  

Question Learn the Law?  what is the point of putting up all of these cases when most people here dont understand that.  Another point, What other way can you go after him other then tort?  Please enlighten.

Saberian

BTW Bardiel, well put :)

In a case involving printer maker Lexmark and Static Control Components, the U.S. Copyright Office last year ruled that the DMCA does not prohibit reverse engineering if the intent is to make the duplicated product work with a separate computer program.


Real says its developers did not engage in reverse engineering. "What we did was not reverse engineering. ... We looked at publicly available data moving between the user and the IPod," Sean Ryan, RealNetworks' vice president of Music Services, said on the sidelines at Plug.IN.

Seems to me like Xo has a case if Scott brings him up....

Hello again everyone, i've just completed version 0.2 of the client :).

Windows Screenshot: http://gameranger.sourceforge.net/gameranger-0.2-win.jpg
Windows Binary Download: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/gameranger/gameranger-client-0.2-win.zip?download

Linux Screenshot: http://gameranger.sourceforge.net/gameranger-0.2-linux.jpg
Linux Binary Download: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/gameranger/gameranger-client-0.2-linux.tar.gz?download

Source Code Download: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/gameranger/gameranger-client-0.2-src.tar.gz?download

Changes for this version -

Fixed:
Error with list control indexes.
Crashing when pressing enter in main chat.
Fixed message of the day on linux.

New Features:
Public Lobby Chat
Private Messages
User icons
Sorted game room list by game name
Sorted user list alphabetically

Huzzah for the Xo.

Keep it coming...

xoclipse...get that this won't end good for you if you don't stop this illegal bs... you're already in serious trouble.

...and that would be civic?

woot xo. this version works on win 98. some of the names don't show up though. probably the one's with the mac characters in them. how can that be fixed. plus, i get banned for 30 min when i put in PC characters :D

oh and are you going to add ability to customize the color theme? it'd be really cool if you could make it skinable :-D

oh i also can't change my nickname, password, or real name. and i can't get infos. and the names that don't appear, only appear when i click the name.

i figured out the disapearing names, but everything else still doesn't work. and it periodically crashes about every 10 min.

Nice, but the OSX version is teh sexiest...

looking at those pics again, I actually really like how the i.p address's are displayed, I wish gr was like that(is it?)

spike, i would hazzard a guess that the i.p address thing might be the admin side of GR... but i am probably wrong.

So with xo cracking this code (excuse me because i am complete moron when it comes to stuff like this) does this mean he can access all our passwords, emails and other details including payment details etc?

No, I can't, and i'd never attempt to do that either.  

But you will steal years of hard work that evill has done for everyone in the mac community, and he has done it for free.

So xoclipse, if you will excuse me I cant believe a word you say.

*agrees*

I've said it before, and I had hoped I wouldn't have to say it again, but I will anyway:


Even if HE says he won't do those things, (and his word is, at best, highly suspect), thanks to the source code floating around, ANYONE with the programming know-how, and a grudge, (and how many people have been banned from GR, and would want 'revenge'?), might be able to do just that. And that should scare everyone, whether you support xoeclipse or not.

- "Bardiel"

Nice builds xoclipse, but it's not right like Bardiel and onwig state.  Why don't you make your own *original* application?  You seem to know how, put your resources into your own work, not patch up and recreate someone elses hard work.

awsome work Man

u look nuff skilled to do ur own gameranger without microsoft like "buy me and u could use ur voices programms jerks, gime gime 50 $"

hmm instead making it for pc, give us a clean "game whatever the name" for the mac :)

yeah... and get your own highspeed broadband server etc for free, so you won't have to deal with kids who want everything for free.

I have tried to get this to run on my linux box with no luck. I am running Redhat 9.0, is there something I am missing.

no need to feed the evil , boy

feed the service you use, free-loaders...

I Hope Evill fries your ass Xo... I feel like Wiggy and Ethion... Its nice that you have the know how to do this.. but you should not have released it to the public and you should not have given the scorce code out at all. Thats like giving everyone that lives in your city the keys to your car and telling them that they cant drive it.

Well said, Harvey. Thanks for shining some more light on this issue.

Well, sorry for the late post first of all. I thought I would just post my own opinion about this issue. As a pretty abid Game Ranger user I see two sides of how a PC GR would be. It would increase the intensity of play and maybe make playing more fun (not implying that it is not currently fun) But on the other hand it would most likely ruin the Mac gaming community as we know it. I guess I am against this . . . but maybe I would be a bit easier on this issue if he did have the consent of Evill.
If this were to grow larger in the PC gaming community I would be very sad to see it possibly be shut down . . . I hope it doesn't get that far

Voodoo,
IM me on AIM sometime today, my screenname is xoclipse. I'll try to help you get it up and working. I compiled it on Fedora Core 2. Not sure exactly what problem you are having....but just IM me and well try to figure it out.

Yeah, it's me chiming in, yet again. Found something that you might want to read, as it's VERY RELEVANT to the stuff happening here.

here's the first paragraph from the article, so you have an idea what it's about (click to read more):

"On Tuesday, President Bush signed an historic free-trade agreement between the United States and Australia.  As part of the deal, Australia will be enforcing new intellectual property laws very similar to the DMCA...." (http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/20040803-4066.html)

Something tells me this saga is about to get a lot more... interesting.


- "Bardiel"

pwnt.

Wow, what a coincidence. I wonder if it's related.

This will certainly give this mess a huge twist if Scott is taking legal action.

Oh my god, now the President's getting involved!  Look what you've done, Xo!

one word... LOL! ;D

damn... Maybe xo should start his own client...

Not like that would hurt GR more then just having a PC client out for GR.

Lets see, an American who has created something in a few days to almost rival GR which has been around for years? An American who has financial backing to get his own servers, his own websites, his own leagues....

Come to think of it...
Where do I sign up to the new GR Xo?

I know that xo can't get our information since that GR client he created just connects to the GR servers and does all the relay stuff. I mean come on... You think Evill coded each one of our Credit Cards into the application? So, if anyone ever got a chance to hack the actual GR application will have access to secure information on each member?

How about everyone of you stop yelling at Xo, and wait till Evill (the man behind this all) comes out and does what he has to do.

You guys yelling at Xo is NOT going to stop him.

Word.

awwww, but eight, i like yelling at kids who think its good to steal other peoples work. It makes my day go much much quicker.

If someone stole you car, would'nt you like to yell at the bastard that did it, and would'nt your brothers/friends etc also do the same thing?

word. ;D

Keep in mind.. that maybe this isn't stealing...

Since he didn't use any of Evill's code, just made his own code to connect to the GR servers...

So steal? I dont think so....

to connect to Evill's GR servers...

And depending on your views on intellectual property, he stole the idea and general set up of GR

plus i just got permabanned. so for all you pcers out there, pretend you're on a mac.

(http://psikinesis.dyndns.org/~braziliangirl/images/Evill_quitting.jpg)

lmao, harvey. I think Evill has been shadowing lately to catch PC users.

How can you be sure the reason was PC joining?

As it is right now, none of us know (unless I'm uninformed as usual) what Evill thinks of this, and yet so many are waging a crusade in his name when for all you know he might even like this idea.

Heres alittle more on the subject, although it's Ghostsniper saying what Evill said, which makes it rumors.. . but still.

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=5655

PS. wiggy, obviously he isnt a child  ;)

joka, i am only asuming he is a kid from earlier posts made by other's, but all i would say is more mature people would realise what they were getting themselves into.

Exactly Civ the same way you and I and the rest of the world connect to the GR public servers...

Read the license.  They are not public servers.  Wake up and smell the mocha java.  XO has broken US law to get as far as he has.  He's also connecting to a private network with his client.

Hit Fan Shit Hard. go figure.

People with small cocks are forbidden to talk about big pictures ^_^

Hmm, well, I had to try it. And it works. Haven't tried joining games, as all the games on this comp are too cool for GR.

pwnt, evill, pwnt.

PC users on GR = soon to get pwned completely, respectively already getting pwned with permabans.

the developer of the GR client for PC = getting pwned, respectively getting his ass sued.

heh, I would like to see Evill do something, cause I'll make it a mission to somehow finance this guys defense. FU and your BS dood... you have no idea how to read an EULA obviously cause his shit isn't protected int he US, and therefore anything Evill decides to mention about the US is completely null and void. I've already sent the EULA to an attorney. I have a feeling that it don't mean shit here... but we shall see!

hey sign... Aussi and UDA just signed an agrement that will make GR EULA enforcable in he USA.. plus the GR server is in the USA

Do you have your head up your ass for a special occasion, or is it always there?  XO is in the US of A.  The Gameranger servers are in the US of A.  It's US Federal laws that have been broken, and some of them have been listed by statute number even.  Even if XO was not in the US, the servers are, and US law about them still applies.  

Throw your money away if you want, who cares.  I don't care what the ELUA says about the situation, because I haven't brought it up.

ghr noobs should try and stay on subject, rather than start talking about cocks...  what are you, female or gay or both? ;D

shut up, you chicken. too scared to post with your real name/account, huh?

such posts by guests should be deleted immediately... the complete forums should be registered-only in my opinion.

Yeah, well, Crapid's a fucking pussy, so it's no surprise that he doesn't have the balls to post under his real name.

I don't see why not, it's not as if anyone likes him anyway.

And your opinion means shit.  This just goes to show you how stupid you are.  You care more about the messenger than you do the message.  You don't lend it any credence depending on who it's from, no matter the argument.  Wait, aren't you one of the guys that doesn't want the BL votes to be held in the open?  

ok you posters and non login'ers...

LETS KEEP THIS CHAT ON TRACK!

Lets also have a rule here.... Lets keep it civilized...

If I have an idea or thought... Please dont call me names... same should go to anyone else... if it was for or by rapid... or typhy etc...

Lets try and talk like human beings and not like the UN ok?

And your opinion means something?, the fact that you havent posted who you are means your a chicken shit.

and civic is stupid?, again he posted a response in his name not as a guest.

and just because he doesnt want his vote being viewed, I agree with this, there is enough flames as it is, there would be no need to see anymore.

It would of been so easy for me to post as a guest and slag you off, but unlike you I will show who i am.

Grow up.

eight, i must have posted the same time as you. oooops  :o 8)

to all the people who are debating weather scott kevill can take legal action against xo: S T F U why get your panties in a bunch, you don't have to debate it, it's scotts choice if he is going to try or not.

true, and who gives a shit anyway  ???

yeah wtf, feck off yew lore peeple

Wow, and I thought you weren't one of the assholes Onwig.  Why don't I post my name?  Because it's a very educational experience for me not to.  I'm learning much about many people that I didn't know, changing my opinion of some.

Bronto, if you don't want it debated, don't read.

Back on track, he's broken US Federal laws, and I'm not talking about copyright, that's a whole other story.

Whoever you are,

I am not one of those assholes, in general i dont have a problem with anyone. I dont have a problem with what most people say, what bothers me slightly is the fact that people that post on here and attack a person who i know quite well and wont show who they are, its not fair is it.

If you want to think less of me then fair enough, i dont know who you are, i dont know if you are one of my good friends on GR, If you think less of me there is nothing i can do, once again we/I dont know who we are talking to.

all i can say on a personal note, when i wrote that last message i was quite drunk, i still am really,  no excuse really. But you know what its like when you've had a few.

onwig.

"The message". *giggles*  You're cute. That you even KNOW about the BL votes means you are a frequent here, meaning you are even more of a coward... "The messenger" can run back to mommy, if she hasn't abandoned you.

i enjoy the rest of the thread, but i skip over those ones, with the exception of the first few.

track... remember ?

LETS STAY ON IT!!!@

Stop the bicker backer.... whatever you or him said, its over...

Since the GR servers are in the US, it doesn't matter where Evill lives in the eyes of the law.  What XO has and is doing is against US law.  Go back a few pages to see a list.  XO being in the US makes it a no brainer.  This is all criminal law, where Evill only needs to make a complaint.  This is not copyright or an infringement case, which he most likely also has grounds for, but not what I've been talking about.

how old is rapid?

I've only attacked those who attacked me first.  Just like you did.  So you are one of those assholes.

man, if only Jeb posted in these threads :-(

How so, civic?

umm.. many people already answered that in this thread. just go through it again. :)

Is it just me or is it getting close to lock time?

Don't lock it just yet, I want to hear from Evill/xo...

i doubt that you'll see a word from Evill here...

he used to come by when there were topics involving him to an extent. like bannings and what nots.

Though, doesn't this involve him?
And it would just be good if he made a statement!

i know i'm just saying that he should have said something already, i know this has already been brought to his attention. it kind of does seem like he's trying to do something.

i wouldnt reply if i was him either. and IF he is taking action, well he is in his full right to. I can understand the temptation of making an "alternative" game ranger - if i hade the ability and know how. but i think that it would stay a curiosity. Ripping off someones idea is not cool in my book and as a "creative" i know what its like when someone takes your idea. starting from scratch(like Scott did) takes a lot of work and a hell of an ammount of time. it probably cost him the shirt off his back in the beginning.  since i have quite alot of pc m8s that are active gamers, i wouldnt mind sharing games with them now and then. no they arent evil hackers, spammers, modders, or shit talking punks. they are quite ordinary ppl. some of them play on macs at work and have pc's at home because of the selection of games that are available for pc. their machines are built to play on. they are self buildt and relatively cheap. but do they shit talk the mac community? no. they love the machines they have at work and preffer to play at the ones they have at home.
so i wouldnt mind a few games to be able to play vs and w pc players.  maybe they MUST be premium(benefits us) to be able to play on gr. and i dont think they would take over. some games have been mentioned and their inactivity - it would be great to spark some fire under those games.

mac vs pc players. Mac players are just as good as any pc player. it comes down to skills. not machines. i play vs pc users now and then. 8 machines(pc's) in an office. the match is even, and they play actively. ghr they dont stand a chance.

Then back to Evill. i dont know the dude and we havent talked much. But he has given us a way to play mac vs mac. in a sense he has started this community. i see nothing wrong with wanting to make a buck on it(little off topic, sorry). if i could play games for a living i would. reason i'm saying that, is because it comes up now and then. how much he earns etc. i dont think thats any of our business. a man has to pay his bills and if he has extra after he's paid them - well good on him.

and posting without showing your face......nah i dont have very much to say about that

Proud to be z][t-Rampage

Umm this is a little of topic, but, I dont think I have seen a thread that has so many replies or hits...WOW  :o , not including the spam room :)

yepp we've started the random flame/spam box 5.0

hey...ill try to upload version 0.3 tomorrow

LOL... good for you... keep going strong dood.

Humbug, scott should have the lockouts up by now.

(http://images.google.co.il/images?q=tbn:PC530WnKDgcJ:http://www.whitedust.demon.co.uk/scabbydog/woot.gif)

Version 0.3 released.

You can find it here: http://gameranger.sourceforge.net/ or here: http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/gameranger/

---------------------------------------------
Gameranger Client
Change Log
---------------------------------------------

Version 0.3 -

New features:
Join game rooms
Game room chat
Change nickname
Change real name

Verison 0.2 -

Fixed:
Error with list control indexes.
Crashing when pressing enter in main chat.
Fixed message of the day on linux.

New Features:
Public Lobby Chat
Private Messages
User icons
Sorted game room list by game name
Sorted user list alphabetically


Version 0.1 -

Initial Release.

Completed features:

Registration
Login
Game Room List
User List
Public Lobby List
Message of the Day
User status(Idle/Active)
Public lobby chat
Users leaving and joining rooms
Changing lobbies

This all raises the question, does scott really want to, or plan to, block the PC client?

i heard he's in Sydney these days... what could he be doing there? national court? ;D

what lockouts?  of what?   what's that mean?

Sign, he has the ability to lock out PC GR in a way that will be next to impossible for him to get around, some programmer person explained it to me so don't ask me to explain it to you. He can lock it out, but why hasn't he?

maybe if he locks it out he cant sue??

I'M BACK!

but i still have the crash every 10 min problem. and it also says it can't load some .bin file in the beginning.

Downloading as of now, from the Sydney, Australia mirror. Oh sweet irony.

I had a .bin load problem too, and I'm guessing it's something to do with special charachers in the profile file name:


downloaded and installed. but i just so happened to aqquirea 30 minute ban. snap.

Let's say he is in Sydney, either with the national court (:P)
And he haven't locked it out yet, because he doesn't have the ability to do that from Sydney, he need to sit in Perth!

did you get a ban for putting in PC characters in the chat? i press control backspace and enter that in the chat and i get 30 min ban. does yours crash every 10 mins or so?

When you install, remember to drag all your old profiles into the new profiles folder. You can always just do New Profile when you login, and just enter your email and pass too.

Bronto, the crashing problem you have is probably due to using windows ME, it's the worst out of all the shitty windows versions.

Upgrade, fool.

With Xoc doing all this this fast, maybe Evill is just working on an official PC GR. Doesn't seem like it would take to long at the rate Xo is going.

Hi again everyone. I started working on a new addition to the gameranger project yesterday. I figured it would be nice to be able to view a list of all the games on gameranger via a web page. This could be a very userful tool for clans. So what i did was designed a small program that connects to gr and basically just monitors the games. It updates all the game room information into a MySQL database of your choice. Then you can choose to display this information however you want. This could be really helpful for game room monitoring. Right now i haven't released the source code, i still need to add the finishing touches to the initial version. You will be able to find it under sourceforge when i release it, with the name 'gameranger-mysql'. I put together a simple web page frontend, using php. Of course you can display the game info however you deem necessary if you use the program with your own mysql db.

Here is a demo: http://fraghosts.net/gr/games.php

You can sort the columns ascending or descending by clicking on the columns. All the game room information is real time. If you have any questions/comments, feel free to contact me.

xoclipse

nj

lol........................................................................

Sar, stfu. You are probably the only Mac user that is saying w00t and nj and support a PC GR.

Funny to hear this from soemone that always requests the lock of threads because of flames..

Anyways...I knew hillbillies wernt educated, but not as much as this, lesson # 1-counting


1


2


3


4

that makes 5 in total, wait err....5 is more than 1...right?

Need I say more? Fucktard.

If u cared so much to post that, for some sort of reason then you should have taken the time to read the damn thread retard. "Probably"? I can understand you missing 1, maybe even 2...but 4? Did they invent glasses in hillbillyvill yet? or maybe you never learned how to read. If u want to tell me to stfu for somethign that u accused me of, take the time to fucking read the thread.

Oh and by the way last time i checked people are entitled to their own opinion

su, both of you... this thread needs to die.

i see many other people posting about how they like the pc gr...why dont u tell them to stfu? just cuz i know you, you cant just randomly tell me to stfu. I mean come on are you just begging for a war between PC fans, and mac fans?

That post was completely unnecessary...I guess now i know where those 1000 posts came from

if you meant me with your post... i told you both to "su" because of the flaming.

and now stop it finally...

Sar, it is a vast majority against PC GR. And I do tell each on of the minority fools to shut up. That includes you.

I think this thread should be locked and any future threads should be deleted.

Yeah wtf why is this thread going strong and the RS thread dies??

1) Just because lots of people are posting doesn't mean the thread is going strong, since most of them are flames.

2) Everyone who wants RS ported either doesn't read the forums, or has already signed the petition (basically, there's nothing more to say)

Gabe, wrong. The RS thread was on-topic for the last 2 pages with only the minor little off-topic remarks before that. If there wasn't any more to say, and there weren't anymore signatures to get, we wouldn't have still been discussing options and wouldn't still be getting signatures.

i meant crypt

why is that? ur the one who started the flaming, let it continue where it left off

Because the vats majority doesn't want it. So why should we support it via these forums?

GAMERANGER caused an invalid page fault in
module <unknown> at d488:00a4cca3.
Registers:
EAX=00000001 CS=01af EIP=00a4cca3 EFLGS=00010206
EBX=0070fc2c SS=01b7 ESP=0070fb84 EBP=00a4cca0
ECX=0070fba3 DS=01b7 ESI=0049a270 FS=29f7
EDX=00000001 ES=01b7 EDI=0070fba4 GS=2a36
Bytes at CS:EIP:
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
Stack dump:
0070fba4 00057e40 00b4d010 0070fc48 00440f85 0070fba4 004c0000 00b4d010 0049ef78 00000000 00000000 00002722 00000000 00001793 00000000 004c0000

that's my error. hewp meeeeeeee

Sar:

Did I really start the flaming by voicing my opinion which btw had nothing personal in it? You just need to stfu you little fucking prick.

Myst, we had about 150 signatures two weeks ago.  Now we have 158.  By the time we get 300 there's gonna be an OS XI.

hmm, i read allthe way up to page 6 and nothing happened, and then i read page 15. so basicly i have no idea what happened, so release it to public 5 years of GR is dead for me, i need some pazaaz

Well then it may take that long, and we maybe have a more chance to get it open source or w/e!

Enough said, I would say hold this thread on track or this thread can DIE!

quote author=CrYpT link=board=1;threadid=6795;start=280#msg98088 date=1093473372]
Sar:

Did I really start the flaming by voicing my opinion which btw had nothing personal in it? You just need to stfu you little fucking prick.

Oh shut up, you told me to stfu, and started attackign me over my opinion.
Now answer me this: would you say that to anyone else?...uh no cuz you know me. You think that you are sticking up for people who do not support pc's by telling me to stfu? I have my own oppinions, you are being a fuckign retard. Did I attack you for supportign mac-only GR? no. I was supporting xoc, to complete PC-GR. You need to stfu and cut this shit out, this isnt th right place to cuss me. You could have told me to stop on GR, but too late now, cuz I don't want to talk to retards like you.

heh. sorry for whatever it means then. but i still don't think you were warranted to blow up the way you did. I would support a PC GR if it was done LEGALLY by none other than Scott Kevill (or if he sold it ever to a developer) not by someone xoclipse