*DAMN R6 Forum

Hi, I am posting on behalf of :cO:. in this situation. First off, I'd like to say that I've seen the replay, and we are very certain that it is a glitch, though, because Gabe takes about 4-5 shots at the individual and most of them land directly on the hull of his body without taking effect.

If you weren't involved in either of these two clans or if you don't have any constructive or helpful comments about the situation, then don't post at all.

Thank you.

Here is the link to the replay file if you want to view it:
Switch to Gabe very quickly at the start and slow it down. Push 'p' to pause if needed. http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/0vilnius%20saved.rpf (http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/0vilnius%20saved.rpf) (make sure you right click and save linked file as)

And a few Screenshots of the situation below:

Click these for full size images:
http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%202.jpg (http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%202.jpg)
http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%203.jpg (http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%203.jpg)
http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%204.jpg (http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%204.jpg)

Here are a few different shots of the glitch:
(http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%202.jpg)

(http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%203.jpg)

(http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%204.jpg)

These screenshots are very intriguing, yet they do not give the full story. From the shooter's perspective, a cloud of dust will usually appear to be a scored hit. Watching from the third person camera centered on Vieia makes the whole world look different.

I could step through each fired round like some sort of crime scene detective here in this thread, but I won't unless I have to. Only one of the impacts looks to me like a serious possibility. If it was a hit, it would have been left-shoulder. This one inconsistency is explainable by the viewing angle.

So what really happened? A prone shooter, in an exposed position, outshot a standing enemy who had cover up to the shoulders. We all know that a prone player shoots better.

Also, very few glitches assist a player who is being shot from "above/behind." Vieia was not looking out over the crest of a hill, he was head first toward the ground while Gabe was in a perfect shooting position.

I would consult other admins, but there really aren't any just now. I had some trustworthy friends (deputies anyone?) help me out in both reproducing the shot and watching the replay. I believe that there is not a confirmable glitch.

I remember watching vieia from 3rd person, and a few of the shots nail him. let me watch again.

EDIT: I have just watched it again, there are a few that clearly nail him I'm convinced you didn't even watch it ara, or otherwise you would see what i'm seeing.

EDIT EDIT: also, it's sometimes very hard to re create a glitch, i know you can't base it off a re enactment.

There will be others (Mauti I hope) who will look at this and help with the decision of course, but I really don't see what you're saying. For a glitch to be real, a hit must register ON the body but be scored as a miss. The most blatent example of this is a simple ditch glitch on the farm map. You can literally place a bullet into the head of a player, and instead of scoring a hit, dirt flies from the impacted location on the head. To put it another way, it would seem that the helmet you just shot was made of dirt. A normal shot hitting the same location will spray red "blood." The glitch sprays dirt from the target player. If the shot is a miss, dirt will fly from whatever is beyond your target which you happened to hit.

Now, look at this replay again. Every impact (or "dirt puff"), watching them one by one in 1/4 speed (third view centered on Vieia NOT the shooter), originates from the rubble pile. There is no "body" impact that sprays dirt. If there was, the spray of dirt would appear elevated away from the surface of the rubble, and from the "upper" surface of the body. At the most basic level, this means that the bullets (if they were truly hits) traveled through Vieia and did not cause any reaction. This is not how any known glitches operate. All known glitches feature a visible impact on the glitching player's model, but with an incorrect "result."

Simple one sentence summary: If there is something going on here, it is not a glitch, but modified game files.

I would be interested to know who was hosting?

I understand and appreciate your attitude Gabe. If everyone thought as you do, there wouldn't be any problems in this league.

That said, any issue with Civic ought to have a seperate thread.

I sorta have to do that. ;)

From the way it looks, you just mentioned exactly what the replay shows. We aren't looking to see if it was dirt or if it was blood that splurted. It's the fact taht the bullets hit exactly where his body should have been but registered as rubble shots.

crypt how do you know he didnt just hit the rubble and not the body?  and how do you know his body should have been there but wasnt?

Dear *DAMN.
Aramarth, you mentioned a reproduction of the shot would be nice. I've made one. Blufire and Gabe both have a copy of it (Twist refuses to watch it) and the reconstruction clearly shows it is not a glitch. I am writing from a PC right now, and i will post the reconstruction when I get home.

Twist had a very interesting definition of a glitch: If you have an advantage over someone else. I don't believe this is the *DAMN definition of a glitch and if it is.... Isn't actually the cO guy the one with an advantage? He is the one hiding behind a rock... :P

The reconstruction was made under the supervision of Rampage and VieiA (host and accused player). We placed VieiA in his original position and fired at him from a few different ranges: Original range (2-3 shots to hit in the replay), and a few closer ranges (kill in first shot). The *DAMN definition of a glitch has never been applied to anyone being prone on ground that is not horizontal before. I remember a match between Core and whatnotclan where a glitch accusation came at Stronghold. It was said that it was not a glitch because he was not laying at an "edge". Neither is VieiA, is he? His full body is visible.

Gabe, things we do when we are desperate? I hardly ever feel desperate when we are in the lead. Perhaps you missed the shot because you were desperate. Happens to me all the time. Look at the reconstruction and make Twist watch it too. Twist told me he hates z][t and I guess that is why he is so unwilling to cooperate.

Zero T Clan will accept the admins ruling of this gracefully. We did what mattered. We've won three seasons in a row and if someone else gets the little winner icon... Well, we still did a smashing good job.

What if a couple of people re-inact what happened and test the glitch out? Same positions for both gabe and vieia. After they finish they save the replay and post a link to it to see the results/

Done, Sar. Contact me and I'll send it to you. Gabe and Blu has em already.

http://www.zero-t-clan.com/stuff/bl/reconstruct.rpf

Right-click and save.

I hope cO realizes that if this is a glitch, running down all slopes and going prone must be considered glitching. I also urge you to read some old glitching verdicts from seasons 5-7

I do infact think that it was a one-time glitch. There have been glitches called in the past when bullets have passed through someone and not actually counted as a hit. Me and Gabe also tried out the glitch and on several occasions Gabe was not able to hit me until the 5th or 6th shot.

The cb, being so close and at such a crucial point, must be considered accordingly. VieiA may have gotten lucky, but then again maybe he was unlucky in finding a rare glitch.

EDIT: Acri, you didn't even shoot them in the right spot, nor were they sitting in the right spot. Not convincing.

2nd EDIT: This decision should not be made according to previous finds, it's such a clear *accidental* glitch. If anything we should for Mauti.

I'd just like to point out we played vilnius twice (if i am not mistaken) during these three cbs... Both times we had zero casualties. Even if this is a glitch, which I really doubt it is, I doubt it would have made much of a difference.

And as i said. Whatever the admins say is fine with me. And... he was in no way invulnerable... you said yourself you managed to kill him. A glitcher is impossible to kill (if he isnt glitching poorly) and there is no running damn definition saying this IS a glitch.

ok, first off, the reinactment does no good, because you arent in the same position..one inch could make a difference, so there is no way to 'reinact' the situation.  Even though this isnt a 'normal' glitch, it obviously is a glitch, you can see the bullets go right through him, hitting the dirt behind him.  btw acri when i say advantage, i mean he cant be shot..not that he's in a better hiding spot..

and if you want to talk about the 'definition' of glitching..what about the huge glitch on day castle w/ all the houses..isnt that considered a glitch??  walking through the walls isnt under your 'definition' but its still a glitch.  

Even though Veiea may or may not have done this on purpose, he was still in a glitch.  And something needs to be done about this.
 
btw there is NO way you can say that it is 'doubtful' that it wouldve made a difference if veiea wouldve been shot or not.

You cannot base a decision on your bullshit. Just because you didn't die in any of the games, it doesn't mean that our team wouldn't have won that game, tying the cb instead of putting you ahead 5-3. This is what separates you from the rest of the community, your arrogance. I'm really getting tired of it too.

IMO, the initial replay looks mad sketchy.  It's hard to believe someone in the finals would miss that many times SOOOOO close.  Those shots appear to go right thru him, exactly like what happens just around the corner on that map @ K13 on the stairs.

Go check it out, it should be noted that the map may be buggy.  If anyone is interested in seeing it hit me up on gameranger and I'll show you.  It has to do with lying prone, still being visible, and shots going right thru.  The only big difference is that stairs are involved, but then again this situation involves rubble and I'd guess that the programming of the game includes alot of similarities between rubble and stairs.

I watched the reconstruct too.  Even though it would probably be quite a challenge to be positioned exactly how Vieia was in the cb, the results put up by z][t are pretty convincing.

Thus, a complete but unfortunate and accidental glitch that should be treated accordingly.

Definately.  By watching the replay I can say that there is no way that Vieia does what he did intentionally...There's simply no time.

But then again, there's nothing proving it was a glitch at all.  Not that I can see anyway, then again I'm not a highly skilled trained admin  :).

Either he glitched by accident, or didn't glitch at all....IMO.

Not that anybody is going to listen to me, but this, like everyone else has been saying, is an accident, and in addition to this both sides are (understandably, with it being a finals game) dug in to the point of virtually no compromise.  

So, the only course of action (unless it is difinitively proved to be an intentional glitch, or just terrible bad luck on the part of the shooter) that that finals game (or that round, whichever) be replayed.  I mean, really, nobody can seriously say that one side or the other is going say "whups, sorry, we were wrong, you win", so the best way to cut through all the crap is just replay it.

Just my thoughts.

So how does this explain how you guys chose the first map when we switched to Rampage's host?  You won the first game, we won the second game, then we switched to your guys host, and you picked the map.  I questioned why you guys would choose the first map on your host, and you replied that it was because the rules changed when we were switching hosts every two games.  Our clan knows you said it, you know you said it.  If you keep pulling shit like that someone is eventually going to get a screenshot, and you won't be able to argue.  So just watch it Civic.

Just like Crypt said, we reenacted this glitch/alleged glitch.  We spent about 15-20 minutes trying slightly different positions for each player.  Although each time I did eventually hit him, a few of those times it took quite a while - maybe 6 or 7 shots.

Acri, I don't give a shit whether it "probably wouldn't have made a difference", because that is not the point.  We both know it, I should hope.

I am still absolutely convinced that some of my shots went right through Vieia's body.  Although it may not have been a conventional ditch glitch, there are other glitches such as those mentioned by wickedson and twist.  


Lone-Wolf, honestly I don't think anyone in cO really expects the match to just be turned over in our favor.  It is too important of a game.  But we really would like to redo the game.

You know what, Lone Wolf, After Vilnius, the score was 5-3. We had it bagged, so We started playing VERY sloppy. -Like on 'Down Town', We had their last man trapped on the roof of the building, while He was on map, and with the WZ belonging to us. Acri could have just camped the exit of "his" building, while I could have backed him up, making escape impossible.. But Nope. -We didn't! -Coz, as said, 'We had it bagged anyway', so I went for the guy, and Acri was a good sport, NOT to camp him. -I got unlucky, and it actually resulted in :cO:. winning that map. (!)

What I'm saying is, that We felt comfortable from 5-3 to 5-5, and that's why We allowed this game to get to be a tiebreaker. -So playing ONE map, is not justice either.

I don't know if it was a accident glitch or not a glitch at all, but I DO know, that You are not too mature about it. z][t is gentlemen 95% of the time. The rest 5% is when provoked to much. Please be nice. It's not like We sceemed or in any way made this happen, right? So, again, please be nice!


Love,

??VieiA..

hi all :  after checking the replay i got one fucking question :

why the fuck does it take 4-5 seconds to lay down and shoot back, when ur getting shooting at? i was like Gabe was shooting at vieia , vieia had his radar to check if someone was shooting at him but he still runs , and runs, and runs and until he finds a glitch? - if it is a glitch? then he lays down and kills him. ?

if i was vieia i would lay down just AS Gabe was shooting at me and then fight Gabe back ! but we all got our gamestyle... i guess?

i'm not trying 2 flame anyone, but it still looks stupid , from my view.

.iP. Stripes

I think Gabe's point was about the non-standard process of changing hosts every 2 games.

this has been agreed with Mr.Twist about a day before the cb to make the hosting of the last cb as fair as possible for both clans. :)

from my first response to Gabe:

I'm a bit confused, maybe I didn't read this...was vilnius the tiebreaker? or was it the eigth map played?

If it was the eigth map played then did cO wait the entire cb to accuse z][t of glitching? If this is so then there is no question of z][t recieving the win.

Me being that person on the roof "trapped" i would like a little credit. z][t had three men left, two of which watching the wz, one coming up to get me. I managed to get one of you that was watching the warzone, then the one that was coming up to get me, although he wounded me. And btw, Acri WAS camping an exit, but there were two, so i took the other. Then i advanced toward the wz, managed to get a shot off and won the match.

I know this does not pertain to our glitching conflict, but i think i deserve a little bit of credit, no?

SAR, that is the way it seems to me. It was not the tie breaker. But on the other hand, we usually make sure the accusation is given before we save the replay.

Gabe, could that have been lag? Not trying to say it was, but is there a possibility? When I experience lag that usually what happens for me. I shoot and bullets dont hit until either I end up dead or the guy I was shooting at SOMETIMES end up dead a meter away from where I shot him.


Interesting comment, Stripes. The answer is quite simple: I don't think VieiA KNEW where Gabe was until he went prone, and his chances were better moving. :)

Edit: Added new material to this post to avoid creating a new post.

I remember when i was playing z][t with Ross in a 2v2, when Civic started accusing me of glitching which we checked in the replay and both agreed that it wasen't a glitch but we still offered them a redo of that round, which they accepted.. .

Just redo it, can someone hounestly say that this dispute would exist if Vieia would have been crouched instead of proned.. . Don't lay down on slopes, good thumb rule.

It's all about finding the better clan right? By any definition gabe should have been the winner of that shoot out.

Just my 2 cents

Toxic-clan is a bunch of nice guys and pretty boys. Hard not to love 'em. Thx for the input, Joka.

i never played a 2v2 cb against Toxic, neither against any other clans you and Ross have been in. what are you talking about?

Well now I'm confused, acri just thanked me for my input.. . And let me get this straight.. . You're calling me a liar?.. ok ok, well. Me and ross were in Core and Virus together, I'm sure if we check the BL database it will prove one of us right.. . Thats beyond the issue though and I'm sure you want to save your face.


The same goes for you as well, no?

Lets leave it at that and concentrate on the issue at hand.

So why did you guys wait till the end of the cb to confront the glitch cO?
That can change the whole cb mentally for both clans.--->example: "Well we don't want to be accused of camping, lets rush."

This could have also chaged z][t's momentum because they have the glitch on their mind throughout the whole cb.

When you ask for a replay, you basically say warn them of potential glitch.

You guys seem to be grasping at straws. Cmon now, a "one-time glitch?" I could call it a one-time glitch that I missed my rifle shot at someone too. If we do accept your logic, where does it end? Concievably, everyone who misses their first few shots could claim a "freak accident glitch." I do not want to live in a league that works like that. Do you gentlemen remember how this place was when everyone was asking for replays all the time? I'll be blunt, it sucked.

After literally hours on this issue, I find that I am completely unwilling to see it last any longer. In addition, it has really become a flame magnet. Lastly, I still do not see an impact on the accused glitching character. As previously mentioned, this is a real requirement for verifying a glitch. I know a few facts, and they lead me to my decision:
1. Glitches leave evidence. This may be crawling prone, right-angled textures (stairs), and/or visible impacts that are not "scored" as hits.
2. I see NONE of the above.
3. It is not in the interest of this league to give any value to the idea of a "phantom glitch."


Due to the absence of any other admins, and the need to end this immediately, I am making a final decision on this matter. There is no glitch. When watching from several angles, only two bullets are really shady, and both of those are explained by the trajectory of Gabe's bullets. The inability to score a hit is baffling, but we have all had those bad days I'm sure. I can answer specific questions in person, but other than that this debate is over. Please enjoy your time off until season 9.