*DAMN R6 Forum

Rumsfeld Issued an Order to Hide Detainee in Iraq (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/17/politics/17abuse.html?ei=5006&en=039721b466df2a8a&ex=1088136000&partner=ALTAVISTA1&pagewanted=print&position=)

>>>>
WASHINGTON, June 16 - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, acting at the request of George J. Tenet, the director of central intelligence, ordered military officials in Iraq last November to hold a man suspected of being a senior Iraqi terrorist at a high-level detention center there but not list him on the prison's rolls, senior Pentagon and intelligence officials said Wednesday.

This prisoner and other "ghost detainees" were hidden largely to prevent the International Committee of the Red Cross from monitoring their treatment, and to avoid disclosing their location to an enemy, officials said.

Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, the Army officer who in February investigated abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison, criticized the practice of allowing ghost detainees there and at other detention centers as "deceptive, contrary to Army doctrine, and in violation of international law."
<<<<

>>>>
Mr. Tenet made his request to Mr. Rumsfeld - that the suspect be held but not listed - in October. The request was passed down the chain of command: to Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then to Gen. John P. Abizaid, the commander of American forces in the Middle East, and finally to Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the ground commander in Iraq. At each stage, lawyers reviewed the request and their bosses approved it.
<<<<

Conspiracy to violate international law and the geneva conventions at every level of our military? I think so.

Since when do Terrorists fall under international law and the Geneva Convention???

Suspected. suspected

And even if he was, that is a 'terrorist' under your terms, and so you have the right also to not allow him basic human rights?

Nope, no human rights for Terrorists!  They can die of starvation in an isolated prison cell for all I care.  When they start caring about the people they are murdering, I might start caring about their well being.

and you wonder why people attack your country.

There you go again.  WE DID NOT START IT!!!  Why should we care for the well being of people who try to kill us, AFTER they have killed our people???  You are acting like we went on a big killing spree against these Terrorists and they are now in the right.  Man, you have some balls telling me that it is MY fault the Terrorists attack us!

DID this guy do it? SUPSECTED. For gods sake SUSPECTED. IF thats the same as the 'suspects' in the iraqi prisons that have been tourtured and then realeased without charge, i hate to think....

 Treat others as you would have them treat you... or somthing like that.  I thought you were Christian?

Which terrorists. Which, where, when. This is where one of the problems is. its seems always (i could quote bush here) that it is allways a case of "THEM AND US"  - and by them its seems to be everyone that is not "us"  The "terrorists" seem to be everyone

Everyone falls under international law. Especially outlaws. The whole concept of "bringing them to justice" is built around this, you know?

Ghost, we are terrorists in their eyes as them to us, I don't understand how you cannot see this. Let's take a look at the stats., shall we? As of July 2003 we have killed 6,000 innocent Iraqi peoples including 2,442 children ages 0-14. The civilian death count in Iraq has now reached near 12,000 people (In no way am I taking the side of terrorist, all I'm saying is what the U.S. is doing right now is terrorism) At first I thought we had a cause to this war, but after seeing the dead babies being boxed up it has changed my mind . . . We are as much of terrorists as Iraq.

You're willing to pass judgment that would completely and irrevocably annihilate a human life because they may or may not be a terrorist?

Disgusting.

I hope people that are living outside of the US don't get the impression that all Americans are like this.  There is a significant portion of the country that despises the current administration.

Please don't think that GhostSniper's insanity justifies terrorism against the United States (I realize that's probably not what you meant here, but it was just a bit equivocal).

Erm, Krush, you seem to be implying that all Americans are terrorists...?

Call Bush whatever you like, but I'd rather not be placed in the same category.

That is a fucking lie.  Why don't you try Hitler, Stalin, or some of your Chinese and Southeast Asian Friends.  Buddy, they have killed more innocent people than you can possibly fathom.  Don't you come in here and spread such a bold-faced fucking LIE![/color][/size]

How do you see Iraq? most Americans see Iraq as all terrorists, I know this is not true. All I'm saying is, we have killed more innocent people than Iraq. An act of war does NOT justify the killing of innocent people, the people in which most of us americans call terrorists (all the 1-14 year old terrorists) we are as much terrorists as the innocent people dying in Iraq (given, not all of them are innocent, but 12,000 innocent people of Iraq have been killed in this war) America is a big giant hypocrite.

Insane, as in exceedingly foolish.  I've already stated why I feel his opinion in this thread can be classified as such.

Yes.

How is that different than saying "Iraq is a big giant terrorist nation"?  You're eager to halt incorrect generalizations about other countries (good!), now apply it to your own as well.  If you'd called Bush a big giant hypocrite, I would agree.

Come on, Ghost isn't being insane, he's just taking things to an extreme. I personally think it's the wrong extreme, but thems the breaks. I also think the best way to counter his arguments is to make really sensable counter arguments.

So, in sum:
flames = dumb come back
you wonder why people attack your country = just as extreme as GS (come on BFG, I too am an American)


Um, huh? That just confused me!

Anyway, I think we're still missing, like, six million jews, a few million Russians and foreign nationals, a million or two outa Pol Pot's country, and tens of thousands out of various South American dictatorships (which we may or may not have supported).

Oh, and the Japanese ate American G.I.s and Chinese during WWII.

But we did nuke them, so I suppose that evens out.

Yikes, Sixhits and I just agreed on something.  How scary is that?!

Scratch that post all together, I believe my other posts on this topic explain my opinion pretty well.

     "WE DIDN'T START IT!!!1" Of COURSE we started it. The Crusades, remember? Christian aggression started this entire thing.

     And yes, Ghost, even suspected terrorists must have rights under American laws, or else what's the point? "Innocent until proven guilty," "all men are created equal," "equal protection under the law," etc. America has historically taken great pride in our legal fairness, and isn't that one of the Great American Qualities? that we are preemptively declaring war performing a military coup stealing the oil liberating Iraq to spread? Violating our own laws while proclaiming that we are doing all this in the interest of those laws is at best counter-productive in the short term, and at worst will permanently undermine the respect given to America and America's position as Big Man On Campus and lead to far bigger troubles down the line.

And exactly, by your definition, who is terrorist? beacuse by mine, you fall into that territory bucko. A man who wants to starve th rest of the world, because he is tired of helping poeple, is a selfish-self righteous fuck. You would rather harm the world then drop a little elbow grease and try to lend a helping hand? you are a ruthless, gutless asshole of a terrorist, you should be in mother fucking Guantanamo bay in a fucking orange jump suit you red neck rebuplican  card toting member.... America was founded to get away from people like you.

Please stop sugar-coating it!  Tell me how you REALLY feel!  ;D

This thread wen't 'somewhat' off topic....

Rumsfeld needs to resign or be fired, that's the bottom line. It's not a great time to replace the Sec of Def, but it has to be. If we compromise our values and ethics to fight the terrorists, then we've already lost 'the war on terror'.
Republicans tried to get Clinton out of office for lying about a blowjob, now they defend Rumsfeld for lying about people being abused and occasionally killed while under US custody.....I guess now we know what Bush meant when he said "I will restore honor and integrity to the White House" during the 2000 election campaign.

Yah. Where the fuck is that honor and integrity?

Lets invade, i want to find this honor and integrity and hell the UN inspecters havn't found/seen it. Time to gather the troops ;)

Saddam's honor and integrity was a threat to world peace.

I'm sure Saddam was hiding his honor and integrity from the UN inspectors.

He had used his honor and integrity on his own people before, and on the Iranians. Even if he didn't have any honor and integrity anymore, I'm sure he had programs to design and built honor and integrity.

Saddam was 90 minutes away from unleashing his honor and integ integrity ry on America. He had UCAVs that could drop honor and integrity on Americans.

Saddam was trying to get honor our of Niger.

Now that we've invaded and occupied Iraq, we shouldn't rush to judgement on whether or not Saddam had any honor and integrity - we know he was seeking honor and integrity, anyway.

And now, the US is shipping honor and integrity into Iraq and getting stopped on the Kuwait border.

http://www.iraq.net/displayarticle4253.html (http://www.iraq.net/displayarticle4253.html)

I think that's why Bush invaded Iraq - to get back his honor and integrity and put it back into the White House.

Just read that link... oh my fucking god. Talk about double fucking standards. Which retard thought it would be a good idea to move that sort of material into iraq at this time? Jesus Christ. I mean what would you do if the Al-Quieda insurgents got hold of this US Honor and integrity? omg terrorists with large quantitites of high grade Honor and Integrity.

Forget plane hijacking, we'd have a bloody great honor and integrity bomb.

Yeah Saddam had honor and integrity and he just had it stashed away - thats why we invaded wasn't it. Perhaps bush was jelouse. Dosn't matter like you said we knew he had some honor and integrity somewhere so if we can't find it now it dosn't matter jack.

but we should find the "honor and integrity" before we declare war, can't really say "we know he was seeking honor and integrity" people want evidence.