*DAMN R6 Forum

Okay, since I am the minority on this forum (Being a Conservative), I just thought I would throw some propaganda into the ring since I have to listen to all of your left-wing crap all the time.

So here it is:

I have spoken to many of my friends who are still "in the know" regarding Terrorists, interrogation of Terrorists, and the general mindset of Terrorists (some are CIA, some Delta Force, Some Rangers, and some NSA Agents).  And do you know what?  They are all telling me the SAME thing.  That the Terrorists WANT John F'ing Kerry to be elected the next President of the United States.  They believe that Kerry will not be as hard-core anti-terrorism as Bush is, and they would therefore do almost anything, including staging a terrorist act like the one that occurred in Spain before their elections, in order to make the American people vote for Kerry over Bush.  Now just think about that for a minute...our ENEMIES, the very people who want all of us DEAD, would rather have Kerry in office over Bush.  Hell, if there is a better reason to vote for Bush than the fact that it is what your enemies DO NOT want, I can't think of a better one.

So,

A Vote For John F'ing Kerry is a Vote For Terrorists to Have Their Way.

In this post you mention our enemies. By this, I assume you mean the people who threaten the "American way of life." Last time I checked, one of the core tenets of American patriotism is the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Read that one again in case you missed it. Liberty. L-I-B-E-R-T-Y. Liberty. In case you haven't noticed, our current administration has made a habit out of using the Constitution to wipe their asses, especially a little section called the Bill of Rights. By my calculations, that would make them *gasp* our enemies. And I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that these enemies want Bush to be re-elected. Now, according to your logic, there is no better reason to vote for a president than if it would anger our enemies.

So GS, please, I urge you to be a responsible citizen and put your vote where your big fat mouth is. Help me and the rest of the country make life hard on our enemies by voting for Kerry. It's the patriotic thing to do, so I hope you won't let us down.

OMG Ace i want to make love to you!! well said  i have the best feeling running through me. is it a bad thing to feel like this about politics??

Yes.

Couldn't have typed it better myself, well putt Ace.

Name one, just one, liberty that you have had taken away from YOU PERSONALLY since George Bush has been President.

For me, I havn't seen any of my liberties taken away.

So, unless you are some Muslim American who has been pissed on, I would suggest you shut the fuck up.

P.S.  Your favorite Democratic President EVER (FDR) did much worse against the Japanese after the attack on Pearl Harbor.  So go whine to somebody who gives a fuck about how we treat people trying to kill us.

Well, my favorite Dem pres ever is Clinton, but then I got to grow up experienceing the fruits of his glorious years. Awwh, I miss the nineties.

Besides, that was the forties, and what FDR did has long been acknowledged as the wrong thing to do. I think it's one of the worst things FDR ever did while in office.

As for this vote for Kerry = yay Terrorists! thing.

I don't buy it. And I did have dinner with a CIA dude the other night - a pal of my father's - who while no liberal, didn't have a point of view on the whole election thing. His job is to protect us, Kerry or Bush. What was captivating to hear was that while it's seemed like hard times at the CIA for the past few years, they never get enough credit. Because the only time anyone really notices what they do is when they fail to do something. We never hear about the silent victories or the clandistine operations that foil desperate attacks. And then he had some harsh words for the media and the way things get reported.

In any event, it strikes me as odd that all the terrorists want Kerry to win. This doesn't sound like the usual sort of terrorist fanatsy, now does it? Wouldn't they rather have, say, a bomb go off killing both Kerry and Bush? And killing everyone else in America? I mean, the leader of the Great Satan is still the leader of the Great Satan, whether he's pro-choice or not.

This smacks of pure partisan hack-hack-hacking. And it's typical, expected hacking. "The boogey man wants you to vote for the other guy - don't you hate the boogey man? Well he just loves democrats!". Bah. It's all spittle flying out of the mouth of PR guys. It's some seriously evil meme-advertizing. (I mean evil like sinister, not evil like raping babies)

Frame it another way: Are we hoping that Osama's number two man will shoot him and take over al Queda, becaues Osama has done such a good job killing Americans, and we'd like to see the lesser man on top?

I mean, seriously, this is the exact reversal of what you just suggested.

Of course not - cause it doesn't matter to us either way. We want Osama, his number 2 man, all his buddies and associates DEAD or CAPTURED. Maybe even dying slowly. But do we care who's the figurehead on top of the organization? Nope. Cause it just don't matter. They're all bad.

A bucket with holes holds no water, GS, and this perspective on the election holds no water.

I fucking knew it!!!  That bitch is in bed with the terrorists!

Come on GS, if you want a claim to be taken seriously it must be because of reasons, based on evidence.

If Bush admin wants to use fear as its political tool of choice, it is quite ironic because Ronald Reagan, someone who W claims to admire once said, "Whatever else history may say about me when I?m gone, I hope it will record that I appealed to your best hopes, not your worst fears; to your confidence rather than your doubts.".

As for the Patriot Act, Ben Franklin said it best "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.". W and his cronies have begun chipping away at fundamental liberties enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Perhaps, this is for our well being, but what will become of our rights when another 9/11 occurs? We are being led down the path to a police state. I for one will resist in anyway possible, and if that means voting for Kerry, then so be it.

Please tell me what liberties George Bush has taken away from YOU PERSONALLY.  Because so far, you and Ace have been telling me my rights have been taken away, but as yet I havn't seen it.

Why don't you shut the fuck up instead? (http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.php)

Oh, I see now.  The liberties you have lost relate to you being able to commit a crime in the privacy of your own home!  Gosh, why didn't you just say that you wanted to be able to commit crimes without the possibility of being caught!  Now I see why the Patriot Act never bothered me....BECAUSE I AM AN UPSTANDING CITIZEN THAT DOES NOT BREAK THE LAW!

Well, guess you need to be scared.  As I said before, I have not lost any of my liberties.

To be perfectly honest, I never liked the laws against search and seizure, wire tapping, etc, because I feel that all too often people are able to get away with crimes that they may even have come right out and admitted to, all because of the fourth amendment. And it frustrates me immensly that we are hindering ourselves from catching terrorists that plot in our country, using our phone lines, on our soil. And there's a hell of a lot that gets in our way of stopping them.

Our government officials (please don't flame me on this, but I'm generalizing) abide by our laws. What laws do terrorists abide by?

Who has the advantage there...

Tell me why I should give up some of my privacy because of an exaggerated terrorist threat, when in reality U.S. citizens are far more likely to be killed in a car accident than by a suicide bomber? The idea behind this liberal democracy, is founded on the principals of liberty and a basic right to privacy, if you set the precedent of sacrificing liberty for safety, sooner or later there will be no more liberty to sacrifice. This may not affect me personally at this very second, but I don't fancy the idea of my children growing up in a police state with unrestricted governmental powers.

Whether you an upstanding citizen or not makes no difference, when the government abides by no restrictions as preserved in the U.S. Constitution, the thin line between a democracy and a tyranny is eroded. The reason why our intelligence services dropped the ball on 9/11 was INCOMPETENCE, not because they did not have the Patriot Act 1 or 2.  

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. First, I have lost the liberty to sit in the privacy of my own home without being treated like a criminal. Second, I never said I wanted people to be able to commit crimes without being caught.  Third, and most important, the P.A.T.R.I.O.T Act never bothered you because you have obviously never read the Bill of Rights.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Do you know why we have the Fourth Amendment? It was created so that we would never have to live in fear of an authoritarian government. The P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act violates this in so many damn ways that it's not even funny. Hell, with the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act in place, the government could be monitoring my Internet connection as we speak.

If you are happy being a mindless, subservient bitch to the government, by all means, go bend over for John Ashcroft and Co. You will get it right up the poopshot eventually. But as for me, I'm a patriotic American and I know my fucking rights.

I, like many other people outside the US, I feel like I have less ability to go to the US due to the stupidity of the security at the boarder. Simply because I have a Arabic last name... I don't think I'm even 1/8th Arabic. I feel that that is the way that I view things, and that has affected me personally because of the Bush Propaganda in the security way.

You can't be serious spetz. You have no idea how much information flows through Intelligence 24 hours/day, 7 days/week, 52 weeks/year.

You have no idea. The hardest part of intelligence is sorting out the real information from the fake information.

Oh and by the way, I'm sure you've heard this before:

Heindsight is always 20/20.


Secondly, the only reason you're more likely to get hit by a car than be killed in a terrorist explosion is because of that intel which you are so quick to insult. Go back to what sixhits said:


It's so easy for you to sit there at your computer three years after 9/11 and call the people which defend your soil every minute of your life---incompetent.

You have no idea.

I have a pretty good idea, perhaps my expectations for the most sophisticated techno-intel apparatus the world has ever seen are a bit high. Since you must be an insider (DEA,FBI,CIA,NSA?) maybe you could explain why our intelligence services failed us. And you're god damed right is easy for me to call them incompetent, because they also defend my right to freedom of speech. So give me some idea since I have none, please enlighten me.  

I am going to make this breif, this nation is ruled by law. If the PATRIOT Act is made legal then in the future some President who does want to monitor what you are reading, your political views, and your private conversations to be used in a trial against in order to imprision you for your politics can.

The same thing happened inside my country during the Soviet times. One could not think for himself because you never knew if the guy in the next apartment was NKVD and keeping logs of all your conversations.

I do not see whats so wrong about going to a judge and supplying reasonable cause in order to get a warrant. It worked in WWII when the US was in much more dire times, it will work now too.

I don't like getting too far into politics, but one thing I know: Bush and the USA (or America) in the same sentence leaves a bad taste in my mouth, figuratively speaking. He makes me feel disappointed that he is our country's president, when I know we can get better people than that in that position. Also, whenever I see a picture of him, I feel the stupidity flowing out of it, i.e. the pictures of him when he visited the Pope.... Sigh. I could be called patriotic, but I think Bush has tarnished the word, along with others. Things like this make me consider about life in another country.

I can tell you the liberty of gays are being taken away, they are people to you right?

Islamic terrorists love things like prison abuse scandals and the Presidents who don't fire the people that are ultimately responsible. I think they're gonna be very happy with your vote for Bush, GS.

So because it's not you, but your neighbor, who happens to be (as you put it) 'some muslim american', its ok if their civil rights are violated? If they are just 'some muslim americans', would it be ok if they were, say, rounded up and shot? Just because you are not personally affected by it does'nt mean it isnt happening. Ask any German over the age of 75 what I mean and they will tell you....
And since we are on the topic, you know that if you did'nt "break the law" in Nazi Germany (for example, by being Jewish or giving shelter to a Jew), you didn't get into trouble either and your rights were pretty much respected. I hope you get the point I am trying to make....

I find it odd that someone who professes his patriotism in every post he makes, has so little respect for one of the greatest things about America....

     A corollary to Abe's post:

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niem?ller

GhostSniper, your original post is hilariously asinine.  While I can tell you're really givin' it yer bestest effort to support and spread your dogmatism, you went wrong when, in that small amount of text, you managed to commit various logical fallacies including appeal to spite, appeal to fear, argumentum ad hominem, and irrelevent conclusion.  Ahm...you're entire argument is ridiculous.

Somtimes i just think that an ideology like yours GhostSniper is all the support that the terrorists need. The more extreme, the more isolated the more you define "us" and the "enemy" the more you play in to the hands of real terrorists.

Kerry will most probably go about the problem of terrorism in a very different way - ie he won't be quite so gung ho and hopfully he will look for the root of the problem rather than just picking a couple of countries to invade while screaming about the threat to your way of life etc.


Ok so i knew your security system was a joke but if the rest of these guys are anything like your "friends in the know" then your absolutly fu*ked lol.

This whole thread is such a fucking joke.

Well.. I feel that that if they are doing the things adressed in the patriot act anyway b4 it was writen out... just hiding it.

I for one dont mind the patriot act due to the fact that my uncle was 2.. that right 2 buildings over from the WTC when it was hit... If one of those planes had missed the WTC and hit his offices he would not be here today. If there is anyway possible to stop these kind of acts from happening again.. Then we need to take staps to protect ourselves.. I feel me opinion is justified due to the fact that it could have been very easily been my uncle (who was more like a brother to me) who was killed in 9/11.

I see what you mean.

Hmm GS;
First, after the unfortunate 9/11 attacks Bush recieved GLOBAL
support.
Second, the spanish governement lost the elections because they LIED about the nature of the attack, not because of it.

they probely also lost the elections because they had troops in iraq and the majority of the people in spain didnt  want that.
Why the hell want the terrorist that kerry gets elected?? It doesnt matter if i look at it as you look at it and that is that the only thing what the terrorist want is to destroy and kill every american citizen.( not my point of view) so why should they care about who gets elected...
Maybe because kerry will have some better foreign politics that make the terrorist a bit more happy
so they shouldnt come anymore to america to go and kill everybody, but offcourse you a terrorist friend then and bablabla...

In nazi germany some communist put some political building on fire
Hitler reacts fast and gets some laws so he can arrest people more easy search there belongins
read their mail and listen to their phoneline... Now this was before Hitler was the fuhrer.
Now terrorist flew into the wtc. Then the patriot act comes and as I read some posts it allows exactly the same.
if GS was a german in nazi germany he probely believed everything hitler said, also blame the jews and the communists for everything. And offcourse you wouldnt find something bad because your doing nothing wrong you have the same ideas as the leader so nothing can happen to you... .
I am not saying you are a nazi but you have a lot in common with them.

If such things happened in my country I wouldnt let it happen unless they share my views and they make dictator for live.

Ghost, i totally agree with whatcha say, but as u can tell, all the democrats storm to the post and bash bush. Its just what they do. If Bush is reelected so be it, but if Kerry is elected, God save the US, or im movin to Canada.

If you believe this we (Canada) won't want your BS propaganda spewing brainwash in our country. Although there maybe a Conservative (Republican Party like thing in Canada) due to people giving protest votes against the Liberals because of other Canadian BS politics. But yea... no Rebel.

Our intelligence services failed us because the bottom line is that if the terrorists want to attack the U.S, they can. It might even be 1 in every 500 attempts that they are successful, but no agency in the entire world (that's right, not even the good ol' U.S. of A) has the ability to stop every terrorist threat. Again, looking back on what Sixhits said about how no one knows about the victories, but everyone knows about the failures. I can tell you right now, there are far more victories than there are failures. 9/11 was a failure; it was not due to incompetence. It was due to the simple fact that not everything can be stopped.


Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

So they've just released that report in the US today i see, the report which has come to the conclusion that Bush lied about the links between Al-Quieda and Saddam Hussain... There wasn't a link, Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks of 9/11

... Untill you change your foriegn policy, untill you change the way you behave towards the rest of the world then you are supporting the terrorists - Bush's actions, his lying etc is all providing fuel to the terrorist fire.

Right now you are the one helping Terrorism.

Ah, I just love the way you throw around the 4th Amendment!  So why is it you can believe so strongly in the 4th Amendment but can turn right around and shit all over parts of the 1st Amendment and pretty much all of the 2nd Amendment???  You are a typical liberal in that you only take parts of the Constitution that suit you and wave them in people's faces, while at the same time trying to destroy other parts of the Constitution.

Specifically...?

Another ad hom, fucker.  ( ;) )

Wait...let me hear, again, how rejecting the constitutionality of the PATRIOT Act destroys parts of the constitution?

well, GS's initial post is so ridiculous it ought to be one of his famous jokes, right ?

Oh jeez, I don't even know where to start with this. Please, oh pretty please, show me where I "shit all over" the First and Second Amendments. If you ever paid attention to anything I wrote, you would know that I'm very much a libertarian, not a liberal. Basically, libertarians want the government to stay the fuck out of our lives as much as possible. Accordingly, it shouldn't come as a surprise that I hold the First and Second Amendments in very high regard.

So come on, pull your head out of your ass for a second and do some research. Read up on any of my old posts. If you want to rip on my views, that's fine and dandy. But don't you dare say that I don't respect the Constitution.

Really?  I'm no liberal, but I have yet to see anything remotely resembling a valid argument from the Pro-Bush squad.  I know there are intelligent conservatives who can formulate articulate and supported arguments, it just seems that they do not exist on this board.

I think you'd find Canada less than welcoming. They're about as left of center as I am.

But hey, maybe when you get there you'll see what you've been missing these last few years - freedom from fear.

Props to Ace, Sixhits, Abe and Loth. I don't have anything to add at this point, you all are handling things nicely but I wanted to voice my support.

in?com?pe?tent (n-kmp-tnt) adj.

1. Not qualified in legal terms: a defendant who was incompetent to stand trial.

2. Inadequate for or unsuited to a particular purpose or application.

3. Devoid of those qualities requisite for effective conduct or action.

I still think it was due to incompetence, and so does the 9/11 Commission.


Do I not feed them with my tax dollars?

I highly doubt that you make enough money to have to pay Federal Income Tax.

How about you stop making unsubstantiated personal attacks and respond to my post? Or are you avoiding me because you know I'm right?

Hold on a second, partner.....what exactly did I fail to respond to?

And on another note, I happen to know that Spets is a full-time college student and much of his free time is spent on GameRanger.  So sure, he may have a job, but I doubt he is pulling in the kind of money that would require him to pay Federal Income Tax.  Cause if he is making less than $30,000 a year, he probably isn't paying much, if any.

If a vote for John Kerry is a vote for terrorists . . . what's a vote for Bush? That's a horrible analogy GS

As I live and breath - what you pay in taxes doesn't determine your right to demand services, or question the quality thereof. Nor does it lend credence to your arguments if you pay more than others. We succeed or fail in our arguments on the merits of our words and the quality of our ideas. Paying into the system a lot, or a little, or not at all doesn't qualify you, as a citizen. As we all know, we are born into the system, or we work to earn our place.

Money has nothing to do with it. And if I may be the radical leftist that I am, it's this exact sense of entitlement that I dispise about certain conservatives, where it puts down the have nots, or the have not yets, for the benefit of the haves and the have mores.

We are all Americans - that is the start and the end of our quality as citizens.

Sixhits, you need to go back and read the whole argument.  It seems you only got part of the story.  This started when Snipe told Spets not to bite the hand that feeds him and Spets replied that he is the one feeding them with his tax dollars.  Which is where I came in and said that I seriously doubt Spets pays Income Tax, so therefore his argument doesn't hold water.

Thank you.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

You haven't really responded to anybody's points.....

I'll ask again: How can such a great patriot like yourself have so little respect for the individual freedom and liberty that make America great in the first place? Or maybe you only like the freedom to own firearms..
I guess the rest of the Bill of Rights is BS anyways...

Did everyone see the Simpsons a month or so back, when they get put in a reeducation camp?

Ahm, everything, actually.

Here, start with this, if you like:
Specifically...?

I did read that. I just thought that questioning his qualification to criticize things because he doesn't put big cash back into the system is misguided.

But, I agree with you that he makes a stupid argument by grounding it in the taxes he pays. Cause really, it's got nothing to do with taxes. Whether you're a newborn baby infant fresh from your mother's womb or a 60 year old billionare you still have the right to criticize the government (tho I think the baby might have a tough time formulating his opinion).

Okay, at the time I was under the impression that Ace was a Liberal.  I have since taken a good look at his posts and agree that he is a Libertarian.  It was to being a Liberal that I was saying he would shit all over the 1st and 2nd Amendments (which many liberals do).

Sorry Ace, had you figured wrong.

Now when do liberals shit on the 1st Amendment. What with us controling the media and all. And trying to end America by putting a big fat gag on all the public praise for Bush's war. We're all about closing down newspapers, denying protesters the right to assemble, and censorship. Yep.

:P

And the 2nd Amendment is so 1700's New England.

This is the part of the 1st Amendment that Liberals shit all over:[/size][/b]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

As for the 2nd Amendment, you tend to shit on it pretty regularly, too.

What law did liberals make in regards to the establishment of a religion, or that prohibited the free practice.

We might mock religion. We might look down our pointy little noses at those we consider fundamentalists, or foolish, or what-not. But we don't prohibit your practice of faith, nor do we want to, and nor do we stop ppl from establishing new faiths. When the heck did we do that?

We're ALL ABOUT the seperation of Church and State - and that means the government doesn't tell you shit-all in regards to your faith.

As for the 2nd Amendment shitting: yah. It's a favorite toilet of mine.

LOL, look at the name of this thread for an argument that does not hold water. So the Govt makes no money from my Federal Student Loans?

Only if you repay them.  And if you are like most Americans, that will never happen.

Well GS, you almost got away with it. You almost got me far enough off topic to not notice that you never actually refuted my statement that those in the administration who support the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act are, in fact, as unpatriotic as an American can get.

But then again, you know that silence is consent. I guess by not voicing your discontent with my statement, you tacitly agreed with it. It's nice to know that you have finally come around and realized that the Bush administration is filled with enemies of the state.

I look forward to seeing you vote for Kerry!

lol...not likely!  As for the rest of your post, I simply didn't remember to reply...it wasn't that I was avoiding it.  I do get busy at work every now and then!  lol

I still don't feel that we have anything to be worried about with the Patriot Act.  It is a means for the government to help track Terrorists.  You are just automatically assuming the government will start using it for other things.  But has that really happened?  I think if the government were using it in a way that it was not meant to be used we would be hearing the media screaming about it every night on TV.  But as yet, that has not been the case.  I will start worrying about it only when the government starts abusing it.  Until then, I say we give the government the benifit of the doubt and allow it to try and keep us safe.

I hate to sound like some paranoid conspiracy theorist, but you should never trust any government, no matter how virtuous it may seem.

Whether the government is abusing the power is rather irrelevant. (And it is, for the record.) What matters most is that the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act gives the government unconstitutional powers. So, answer the question:

How do you argue that the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act is not unconstitutional?

I realize that this is a tough, broad question, so I'll give you something smaller to chew on if you so choose. From the EFF page (http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.php):

"Be careful what you read on the Internet. The  government may now monitor the online activities of innocent Americans, and  perhaps even track what Web sites you read, by merely telling a judge  anywhere in the U.S. that the spying could lead to information that is "relevant" to an ongoing criminal investigation. The person  spied on does not have to be the target of the investigation. This  application must be granted and the government is not obligated to  report to the court or tell the person spied upon what it has done."

This clearly violates the Fourth Amendment. If you disagree, please explain to me A) how people are secure in their persons against unreasonable search and seizures and B) how this guarantees that no warrant shall be issued but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Personly I dont realy want Bush back.. but on the other hand .. I cant stand Kerry.. As much as i hate to say it.. when i get to the polls and I dont see a third party canadate that i like.... i will not be voting for the prez election.. due to the fact that i dont like either bush nor kerry.

Harv's post brings back an old idea of mine.

Mandatory Voting.

I don't care whether such a scheme would help the Dems or the Repubs, but I do care about the opinions of other ppl. And by god if you live in America you better fucking vote. That's cornerstone of our freedom, and it's what so many have died to protect. Hell, vote for fucking Nader or whatever, tho it be a knife in the Dems back, as long as you vote.

Here's my mechanism: 10% total worth tax on everyone who doens't vote in every election. A two day federal/national holiday on "election days", where the election takes palce over those two days. Something like that.

Why should somebody vote just because they have the right to?  Just because "we've fought long and hard for this right"?  Does it make sense for someone to vote, even if they don't want any of the candidates in office?  If everyone did this, how is it supporting the views of the people any more than if these people didn't vote at all?

Just my two cents.

One of the reasons I get so worked up over voting is that I really appreciate what a Democracy represents -- it represents the voters, the people.

And I feel that in order that a nation under a Democratically elected government feel that their government is legitamate it needs participation.

It also dove-tails with the memes that attach to peoples arguments over whether someone's opinion matters or not, for this or that reason. If everyone is required to vote then we legitamize the opinion of every citizen - which is something of a beautiful idea. Whether or not I agree with the radicals, I still what to hear their voice. The whole notion of whether or not someone is a "true" patriot, for example, is expunged when you vote. Cause by voting you are a part of things. And I think that if you live in a democracy you better fucking be a part of things ... or leave.

Here is a different take on things, Sixhits...

Maybe the very choice NOT to vote is a freedom we have all by itself.

But then if you are going to require everyone to vote, then I also think you should go one step further and require everyone to serve some time in the military:

"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation."

-General of the Army Douglas MacArthur

I don't think that serving time in the military is the only way to "preserve freedom."

By demanding your right to not serve time in the military, that is preserving freedom by claiming and demonstrating freedom.

Absolutely

The difference is, I'd argue, that we don't need everyone to serve in the military, while we do need to know everyone's civic opinion.

That and last time i checked the US wasn't meant to be a Military State... althought the way things are going......

Nice thread GS.  The whole commune is out to take part.  Your Kerry/terrorist fanatical logic is much more effective than us leftists spreading more sensible information.  Will you please run for president too?

 

Hell no.  It takes a real moron to WANT to be President!  lol

That has got to be the worst job in the world.

So Canada was right, Bush is a moron. Confirmed by his fellow Republicans.

So it's sort of like being the Game Ranger Sex Symbol. People always have periods of love/hate/love/hate every few months.