*DAMN R6 Forum

As many mac gamers know, GameRanger has long been an excellent gaming service for the Macintosh.  It is still the only application-based online gaming community for Mac and boosts member numbers in the hundred thousands.  But with the introduction of the Premium Member Services in Feb 2003 many users were outraged to discover that GameRanger and it's lead developer, Scott Kevill, decided to use anti-competitive tactics to block NetFone (now part of the KDX package), the popular voice communication software by Haxial.  Moreover, the fact that one of the features of the $50/year premium member price is the ability to use KDX again undermines the developers at Haxial who have put much of their time and effort into KDX.  In light of these facts, I have started a petition to see how many people feel the same way I do about this.  If you are interested in reading up on it some more or signing the petition, please visit http://www.haxors.com/gameranger/ (http://www.haxors.com/gameranger/)

We've covered this already. We still don't care. Please go away.


Oh yeah, and pay for GameRanger you cheap bastards.

many many people feel the same way, however this issue has been discussed, concluded, and dragged out and beaten again.

petitions like this have been made and sent to kevill already to no effect.  you re free to try again, but i doubt the outcome will be any different

sorry

I have purchased a premium account, but I still do not agree with Scott Kevill's tactics to try to get people to sign up for premium, it was when he said he was in a bit of financial trouble that the loyal users of GameRanger reached out and signed up. I mean you don't know that he isn't just trying to get more money for himself and that he is a wealthy person secretly, but you also don't know if he was havving trouble putting food on the table either.

The best way to earn money would be to work hard and release new features. I believe he did this with the ladders.

I'm gonna sign the petition just because of what I think he did with KDX/NF wasn't a good idea.

But on another note Dema, there is a KDX crack for use with GameRanger located at: http://www.haxial.com/faq/gameranger/ (http://www.haxial.com/faq/gameranger/)

OK so attemptss have failed in the past, but it shouldn't stop people from trying! If people don't approve then they should sign the petition.... Hell Everyone should, unless there are people who approve of the 'microsoft business techniques'

... i didn't think there were.

Haven't had any luck with either of those myself.  I believe the second one only works with 10.3, which I don't have.  I'm more concerned with the principal at hand than the action itself personally, so a workaround like that really doesn't do anything for anyone except waste the time of the Haxial team.

And I realize this has ben done before, but that won't stop me from trying again.  If enough people hear about this, sign the petition, and no change is made it may have enough effect to drive a change of a different sort.  If not, at least we can say we tried to protect our own rights.

If you use it every day, it's just fair to pay!

oh, that rhymed. ;D

LOL, I'm sure it's been said before, but I can honestly say I would drop the $50/yr in a heartbeat if it weren't for this simple little injustice.  I have been a user of GR for a long time and back when Scott and I used to talk I told him I would be more than glad to pay to use it and I stand by that statement now.  But I just can't justify funding something that uses these types of tactics.

Quitcher bitching. I doubt few, if any, people even paid for Netfone in the first place. And I think it's quite fair what he did. You don't have to use GR to find games, and you don't have to use NF when you play. However, once you pay for premium, you can use NF or the GR voice chat. Why would people buy premium when they can use GR for free and use NF for free (after pirating it of course)? I see nothing wrong with what he did. I don't pay for premium, so I don't use NF. It's a fair trade. It's not like the NF people lost any money when it happened. The few people who were going to pay for it already paid for it. How many people who signed that petition paid for NF? I want an honest answer from you guys.

Excuss me? Since when has this been fair? Didn't microsoft just get fined hundreds of millions for doing similar things by the EU?

If I were bitching, I would take note of that.  But I am taking a practical, fair appraoch to the problem at hand, in hopes that others will do the same.  If you disagree with what I have to say, don't sign the petition, it's as easy as that (:

On another note, Haxial has posted the petition on their News (http://www.haxial.com/news/ (http://www.haxial.com/news/)) and GameRanger FAQ (http://www.haxial.com/faq/gameranger/ (http://www.haxial.com/faq/gameranger/)) pages.

Hmm well sorry I snapped a bit at you guys. I didn't look at the petition and I thought it was just more bullshit some newb made. It looks nice and professional. I still won't sign it, but good luck. Nice to see someone putting work into something now and then.

Anyways, I think enough people have paid for his premium for him to drop this NF shit. I bet there are lots of people that would pay 10-20 bucks a year for a "Silver Account" or soemthing that would allow them to use GR unhindered without the ladders, etc.

And that there is the bottom line.

Actually that's far from the point.  The action deters people from buying NetFone/KDX, it's why I haven't purchased a client licsense for KDX yet.  And that is beside the entire moral principal anyway.  Please take a moment to read what I have said on the site and respond to that if you feel a real need to challenge my stance.

The major thing you are forgetting is:
You don't need to use Gameranger if you want to play multiplayer games. Every multiplayer game has a built-in engine to play games against other players, you make the choice if you want to play it on gameranger or not. Don't forget Gameranger still is a product of Scott Kevill, you chose to use it for your games altough you are not forced to. So don't go talking bs that you can't use your voice communication with gameranger anymore if you don't even pay for any of them. Its free for the ppl that don't need the xtra's, like voice communication, ladders and other stuff. You pay for it when you need the xtra's. Be glad its still free, other platforms like X-box you have to pay to play online.

The comparison with Windoze is BS to, sorry BFG. Windoze is an OS that is put on almost every rdy build PC. Ppl that don't know anything about any other OS are forced to use Windoze, Microsoft didn't allow certain stuff in to their OS, so ppl couldn't use it. That is totally different. Like I said before, you aren't forced to use Gameranger, you choose to use it. It doesn't come pre-installed on every Mac. It simplyfies the search for servers. And with that you have certain restrictions that you know you will have when you don't want to pay for it. You can read it all on the website. But if you pay for it, you get more support, just like every other app.
I don't care how much Scott earns with premium and advertising. Its his right, he build the app, he made it easier for us to game. He has the right to earn money from what he worked hard on to achieve. If you don't like it, try making your own app, build your own program and do it all for free. Let's see how long you will survive. Let's see how much respect you get.

Because Scott deserves respect!

These threads about how you can't use netfone in gameranger are getting annoying, you can still use netfone in gameranger:
1) if you are premium
2) if you aren't premium and you're not in a game.
If you want it in game, pay for gameranger, just like you have to pay for every other app that isn't freeware. Its as simple as that. And 50$ isn't much for a whole year.

dema, I think you need to get more sunshine, go play footie or something, if you have a family go and spend some time with them...

If haxial were that pissed of about it, they would have done something by now.

You say your account No is 946, you have used Scott's service for years, Just put your hands in your pocket and pay for a service that you have taken for granted for so long.

Ooh yep. erm i take all that back heh i was in a right old strop when i wrote that and hell what windows is doiing has nothing to do with it. sorry :D

I love gameranger, i pay for gameranger, i think scott has done a great job. But the active blocking of other applications in order to corner the market? I just disagree with it.

As I've said before, I'm not going to address trolling, and I'm not here to start some holy flame war.  If you have an objection to the statement's I've made feel free to present them.  If you want to troll, I have provided both an email and an AIM screen name on the website (;

Although, I would like to address Sentinel's statement about GameRanger.  Yes, it is true one does not need to use GameRanger to play games online.  But, does that mean that because you do use it you should have your own rights compromised?  Here's a more practical example:  Let's say you decide (your choice) to go to a foodcourt (the internet) for lunch.  You have purchased a small item from the McDonald's (Haxial) and would like to grab something else from Taco Bell (GameRanger).  But the kind adolescent boy at Taco Bell tells you that in order to enjoy both your McDonald's and some Taco Bell at the same time, you have to pay Taco Bell an additional fee.  Does that sound fair to you?  This example follows the principles that a) both actions are your own choice, b) both entities are separate from one another, and c) your rights have been comprised by one in order to mutually enjoy the other.  The only part of this analogy that does not fit is the free service provided by GameRanger.  But, that service is in fact PENDING what applications a person uses OUTSIDE of GameRanger.  Is that what free really is?

umm... another example: you?re going to a cinema/restaurant or something similar... are you allowed to bring your own food? of course not.

what rights do we have???????

and part of your example does happen, so your example is a bad one.... for example... taking your own beer into a pub or a nightclub - not allowed....

and if taco bell decided to charge you for bringing other food into their place... ITS THEIR COMPANY!.........

yes its not fair sometimes, and it sucks... but alas this is life, and not all things are fair

Ok.. for those of us that rely on Adobe Photoshop.... and love listening to music...

Adobe launch an MP3 player (daft i know) but people don't like it much and prefer to use iTunes

Adobe do an online update (so u have no choice u have to update) And although this update is great and has lots of new features, it also now blocks you from using iTunes... You just can't use itunes at all if you want to use photoshop...

Adobe will let you use iTunes at the same time as Photodshop - but only if you pay them $100...  otherwise u have to use their MP3 player.



Um.. no thanks.

We have the right to run whatever appications we please on our own computers.  And taking a beer into a nightclub does not apply because the nightclub is not your something that you own.  Your computer, on the other hand, is something that you own.  GameRanger is a service, and if it were to restrict a person from using some sort of application within GameRanger, there would be no problem at all.  The problem lies in that GameRangers restricts you from using an application outside of GameRanger on your own computer.  We can change this to something that likely affects us all.  Assume GameRanger began to provide a web broswer within itself, and affectively cut your ability to use any other web browser you have unless you paid for a the prem service.  How would that stack up?  In fact, simply apply the analogy to any application you use while running GameRanger and it still falls under the same lack of ethics.

ok....

from one silly example to another...

BFG. at the end of the day... Gameranger hasnt blocked Netfone, or anyother voice chat program.

lets time warp 5 years ago, GR has just been launched with the same features it has now. Would this netfone be an issue?, I doubt it.

Also the photoshop was another bad example, a better one would be, Photoshop would only allow to open certain file types, unless you paid extra. But again, its down to the company.

The only thing GR has done is limited who can use a certain app, peeps can still use it like sentinal said. Most services you have to pay extra for. Sky comes at a price, but if you want more, you pay for it. GR has features, you pay for more and more features you have..

dema,

Gameranger has not blocked anyother app. You are still able to use this app, even if you are not prem (just outside of games).

dema, what would you have done if evill turned gameranger to subscription only? or, just let non prems only alowed to play demo's or just chat?

I really don't have a problem with anything that Scott Kevill does with GameRanger.  It is HIS and all.  If someone doesn't like it, then they should just stop using it.  If you use it everyday (like I do), then you should support it by buying a Premium Account.  And it's not like Premium is all that expensive.....you pay the same amount to buy just about any of the games you are going to be playing on GameRanger anyways (unless you pirated your software....like some people I know).  Besides, even if you can't afford Premium, just wait around and answer one of GhostSniper's trivia games and win it!

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

What I think is going to be funny is how Evill reacts to the Mac release of Ventrillo (http://www.ventrilo.com) which is very close from what I hear. They are a giant and wont take kindly to Evill if he tries to block that application.

A little bit off topic, but, can haxial (KDX/NF) or this soon to be Ventrillo, can it be used by cross platform.  Meaning,  a Mac can communicate with PC? or do they have to be MAC - MAC and PC - PC ?

Not sure about Ventrillo, but yes KDX is cross-platform.

What do you define as blocking?  I can't run KDX while GR and a game are running, but I can while GR isn't running and a game is running.  That's a pretty cut 'n dry definition to me.

And if GR were subscription only I would pay it, I can afford it in a heartbeat and I love the service.  But I can't put a price on my own rights.

Also, I have no intention to continue bickering here.  I've sold my point to the best of my ability and as I've said before; if you agree feel free to sign, if not, carry on (:

heh no bickering here, discussing maybe

I dont think you have sold it that well, your just another person complaining about something that happend, and if you love the service as you say, just pay. ;D

In one of your previous posts you said you didn't pay for KDX yet, so I assume you run it under the demo version or with a hax. If you don't pay for a service you like that much, then I don't know why you are nagging in the first place. The amount of bad examples that some ppl just gave had nothing close to gameranger's services or what those services block.
If you were smart and went to de McDon's for a burger and knew they were gonna ask xtra at Taco's, just hide the burger and go to Taco's. And eat in the park.
The fact that Scott has to use a strategy to sell his premium membership is normal. The only option he had a year ago was to bring a in-game voicechat. Not everyone would pay premium just to see time-stamped messages or a bolded black name. That for sure, so he didn't have any other option then making himself a bit unpopular and blocked an app that only worked when you had premium. Its a normal strategy and a lot of firms use it in all kind of ways. (the app is only blocked in-game)

What if he used another tactic:
- Block non-prems from hosting rooms, that would piss-off some more ppl then he did now.
- Block non-prems to one chat-room on gameranger,  :o
- No buddylist for non-prems
- No private messages for non-prems
- No games for non-prems
- ...

All the things I just mentioned will piss-off a lot more ppl then he did when he blocked nf for non-prems. Haxial doesn't need to complain actually, its thanks to gameranger they got a lot more customers. Because ppl use it to play, otherwise it would have been an app like carracho or hotline. Where you have to pay aswell.


You love the service, but still you don't want to pay 50$ for it. That doesn't show much respect for the developer.

Own rights? You use a program for free and you say it violates your rights? Then I say:
DON'T USE IT if its violating your rights! Try finding some other app, or play trough multiplayer, because as long as you don't pay for it, you have no rights towards the app.
Simple as that. Its life and it happens everywhere.

Let me give you an example now:
You find an iPod on the street, looks like someone lost it. After a few runs you see the battery is always going dead after 30mins. Now what would you do...
If you bought the iPod you would go back to the store, with the receipt, and ask for a new battery or a refund.
But since you found the iPod, you don't have any rights to go and clame you want a new battery or a new iPod.

With Gameranger its the same:
You found gameranger online, you download it. You find it ammusing and are online every night. Chatting and playing fun games. Then you notice your voice communication doesn't work anymore when you use it on gameranger, in-game. You can try to go to Scott and complain because it doesn't work anymore, but then again, you didn't pay for gameranger.
So you don't have anything to complain about, since you didn't support his work. Because you know the voice-communication still works if you pay or if you play without gameranger.

Another example:
If I develop my own MP3-player tomorrow, and decide to block every other MP3-player while running my app. But I put my mp3-player free for download on my website. Then no one, absolutely no one can complain about the fact that I block other MP3-players. Because I give it for free AND you choose to use it. I can also give you another option for ppl who pay for my new app, they can use iTunes library or import the library directly into my new app.
Its the same with Gameranger, you can use gameranger for free with the games but without voice-communication. Or you can use your games without gameranger and voice-communication. Or you can pay for gameranger, have gameranger in-game voicecommunication or your own choice of voco.

I hope you understand my point now, I've typed enough for today.
I like gameranger very much, that's why I paid for the service I like.
th.Sent

And from what I remeber... Evill actualy thought about doing these things to non premiums befor he did the NF/KDX thing.... I remember him dicussing it in the B&G one late night.

pwned.

That's the key right there. Scott didn't take any functionality away from any of haxials products, he simply removed functionality from his own product when haxials products are running.

You can run kdx or nf all you want while using GR, you just can't join any games with those programs running.

Now, stop bitching about the FREE movie theatre that won't let you bring in your own candy.

Yes, Ventrilo and TeamSpeak will be cross platform, but only if they ever come out.

Elan