*DAMN R6 Forum

I suppose everyone's seen this by now - photos of Iraqi prisoners being humiliated by American GIs.

This sort of irresponsiblity is like lighting a match over a powder keg.

Worse, these few fucking idiots paint the whole American army in a negative light, when the vast majority are doing their best out there.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14195963%26method=full%26siteid=50143%26headline=outrage%2dat%2damerican%2dtorture%2dof%2diraqi%2dprisoners-name_page.html (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14195963%26method=full%26siteid=50143%26headline=outrage%2dat%2damerican%2dtorture%2dof%2diraqi%2dprisoners-name_page.html)

Not just 'humiliation' - some of the photographs show clear and blatent torture -- physical and psychological.....

Im sure thats just done a world of fucking good for relations between the US/ West and the middle east etc... Happy birthday fundamentalists, here is some great footage to help you gather the hatred for the west.. and when u look at some of those photos its hard not to see why.

what was sick was the phot's with the troops in them - pointing at naked prisoners genitalia etc and laughing - like it was a trip to the circus or somthing...

yeah....well it f*ckin pisses the hell out of me.  I just cannot begin to understand how anyone could ever do something like that.  Especially TRAINED SOLDIERS.  I mean, the whole reason they are in Iraq is to FREE the people from acts like this.  This whole thing reminds me of something a sixth grader might do to a third grader as a prank or something.  It f*cking disgusts me.

Sick isn't it... doing to the people that you've 'freed' the very thing you freed them from... Its just disgusting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3675723.stm.

Apparently this isn't a stand alone thing.
And you still think you gonna win the harts of the Iraqi people.
This war was lost before it began.
Thank you for helping to make this world less save.

says it all dosn't it... pretty shocking about the apparent British soldiers... bet their fellow guys dont' feel best inpressed giving them a bad name after they have done so well in basra... it just takes a couple of retarded fu*kwits

-------------------

News update from the BBC brings note the fact that several 'errors' have been found in the apparent pictures of British soldiers humiliating iraqi prisoners:

BBC defence correspondent Paul Adams says sources close to The Queen's Lancashire Regiment believe many aspects of the photographs are suspicious.

He says they believe the pictures may not have even been taken in Iraq.

?They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq.

?They say soldiers in Iraq wore berets or hard hats - and not floppy hats as in the photos.

?They also believe the wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq.

No reply from Ghostsniper  ???

Actually, I did reply.  Would somebody like to tell me who deleted my post?

you may be thinking of your reply in the "dont switch horse mid appoclypse" thread

what happened there is inexcusable, inappropriate.... and i can't believe trained soldiers would stoop that low.

agreed sixhits, these kind of things damage the good name of everyone else giving it their all out there, and its downright depressing to think these kind of people are supposed to represent their country.

i'd say this was a judgement error on the military's behalf. most of the people who resort to POW abuse and other random acts of violence have pre-existing psychological disorders, or turn into animals out there as they buckle under all the stress. though it isn't always preventable, someone should have picked up on the warning signs.

No, I replied to KGB's post (the one about 5 from the top) and all I said was that he was a stupid fucking moron for hoping that we lose in Iraq.  That's just what I got from his statement about the war being "lost before it began."

So, someone deleted that and I was just wondering who.

Bah, to see this from American troops, that really pisses me off.

Do you know what them Dogs (iraqi soldiers) DID???
the whole fucking islam should be terminated  :-[

them guys are very dangerous
i predict a 3rd ewar with islamic people within 5 yrs  :-X

so good for them iraqi dogs  ::)


greets Ghost

Would someone mind deleting this idiot 'Dutch Ghost's' post please? It is highly racist, bigoted and  pretty damn disgusting.

Oh I don't know.....

My only problem with it is he didn't sign in and tell us who he really is!  lol

Ghost please tell me this is part of your F*cking disgusting 'sense of humor' or have you sunk to a new level?

Yes, actually it IS part of my fucking disgusting sense of humor.  I see people still have trouble with my sarcasm/sense of humor.

muhahahahahaha

Hell GS as always you seem to read things that aren't there, where in my post did I HOPE for anything.
I still would like to see you respond to the fact that trained american soldiers behaved like animals.
Thank U

ps stop insulting people when you want to reply to something, maybe that is why it got deleted.

play nice

(i'm not about to let this thread die)

(first of all, I NEVER PLAY NICE) :)

Now, for my response....

What these few soldiers did is totally unacceptable.  I am quite sure they will be brought up on Court-Martial charges under violations of the UCMJ.  But I really don't want to hear anyone else talk about how this is some widespread problem occurring all over Iraq (as I saw on a T.V. report today).

But hey, the one where the female soldier is pointing at the Iraqi's small genitals and laughing was rather amusing.  ;)

You know the Americans did this sort of thing in past wars. You know POW camps for ex-Wehrmacht (not the SS just plain regular soldiers) were put into extreamly cramped quarters (standing room space only). When they were thirsty they would have water sprayed on them (keep in mind this was during the winter). They were not allowed letters or outside contact with their families which is a violation against the Geneva Convention. Look at the book Other Losses to know more about what I am rambling on about.

Despite this being a post that has been put together inadequatley, the point I am attempting to get across is that everyone on all sides has always commited these sorts of atrocities. Germans, Jappenese, Russians, Italians, Germans, Iraqis, Afghanis, and even the US. I would be suprised that something like this didnt happen albeit dispicable and unfortunate. It is the dark side of humanity.

I think we should all keep in mind how much of this goes on in war (on both sides) that isn't caught on film. Only a tiny minority of abusers are ever stupid enough to document their crimes on tape.

This whole affair really makes me sick and i am ashamed at the way some members of our armed forces are behaving in Iraq. I have a feeling that this goes further than a few "bad apples" in a reserve MP regiment.....
you should all read the seymour hersh article in the new yorker if you havent already:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

Jesus H. Christ......


Shit like this happens in every war....

I don't see you bitching about how American POW's were treated in Vietnam...or how American Pilots were brutalized, raped, murdered, and then had their body parts dragged through Somalian streets....or how those same Iraqi prisoners in those pictures tortured American soldiers during the 1st Gulf War...

Hey here's a thought...

I heard someone recently bitching about how the military is full of a bunch of ass-sucking conservatives always ready to rape someone else's culture....To be honest...I'm glad...

If the military were left for a bunch of bleeding heart liberals...we'd all have british accents and eating fucking creme brulet....

Yes they did. Yes they do. So does the fact its happend before justify it happening now? people should shut up and say 'well they did it to us so we are going to do it to them'.... and then u try take the high moral ground?? I would have thought if nothing more the Israel/palestine conflict had proven beyond doubt that retaliation does not work, it simply fuels the fire.

To say its the same prisoners in the pictures who tortured american soldiers during the 1st gulf war is mad, ok there is a very very remote chance, but to be honest, it just sounds like an attempt to justify the actions of those soldiers. There is NO justification for those actions.


Oi watch it ;) nothing wrong with a british accent... whichever one u pick that is (minus welsh, shudder)
oh and i'll pass on the creme brulet thanks, my steak and chips are almost ready

1. I'm not endorsing the actions these idiots took in torturing Iraqi prisoners...

2. Sorry about knocking on the british accent...I had just seen The Patriot and you know how inspiring Mel Gibson can be  ;)   EDIT: I meant French accent.......yea....


My main point is that I'm tired of hearing people complain about these things. War is war...it ain't a fuckin tea party...shit like that happens...but what the fuck are you gonna do about it thousands of miles away sitting at your desk typing on a keyboard...How would you respond if you were carrying a gun in your hands and someone started killing your friends around you...Would you throw it to the ground and start singing Koombaya? Honestly....think about it...

lol no worries. we sound rather funny i no my dear chap, wot wot. tally ho ;)

People complain becasue they are not happy. To not complain would suggest that you are happy with war. ok thats rather simplistic i know. People want to voice their discontent about what is going on, and that is great.


No, i would shoot back, without question. However that is not what has happend. These are prisoners, they were completely at the mercy of their captors - if there had been a prison riot and the iraqs were shooting the prison guards, i would not blame the prison guards for shooting back. howeved If i were a part of the occupying force that has 'liberated' iraq from a dictator, who murdered and tortured his own people... i would not do the same. i wouldn't do it full stop. end of story.

None of this is acceptable. And for people to speak up about how they are unhappy with it is great. Admitedly its not doing a whole lot of good here, but the more things like this are kept in peoples minds, the more people might stop and think about what is going on.... And for just one person to change the way they think about what is happening in the world right now makes it worth it.

I guess what I was getting at was the emotions you feel during war. Your friends are dead so you want to exact revenge against the pigs who killed them. Same goes for how the Iraqis feel...It's the way war works.


P.S. It'd make my day if you'd type..."Indubitably...Now won't you join me for some tea and crumpets ol chap?

Yeah, and that can be one of the most dangerouse things. People are blinded by hatred and/or the need to feel they can exact revenge to deal with their loss .... well in some extream cases. But in this case i don't think that was the case. In some of them it just seemed a big joke - lets make them all pile up naked and laugh etc... the more seriose stuff for instance the psychologica torture well, it is horribly calucated and cold - its not a quick kicking or somthing - its prolonged and extreamly disturbing.

ps... well just for you ;)
Jolly fine idea my old chap. indubitably. oh i say, wont you join me for some tea and crumpets my dear chap? Jeeves is just bring them now wot wot

You know what is quite enjoyable? Auto-erotic asphyxiation.  Yes...quite, quite.  

** paddle paddle **

This is the worst public humilation of the armed forces in my lifetime.

Rumsfield should be fired.
The General and attendant officers in the chain of command leading directly to those soldiers who commited these acts should be investigated, and if found willfully complicit or willfully ignorant, then courtmartialed as well.
The President should offer a public, humble appology to the world and to the Iraqi people.

Nothing else will be satisfactory.

(http://images.suntimes.com/images3/higgins/higgins35006.gif)

Sometimes I think it's good to put things in perspective.

As much as I dispise what has gone on in Iraq, it's nothing compared to 911.

Yeah totally Sixhits. Your absolutly right....

That is if you regard those members of the US Army To be fundamentalist terrorists... of course its far worse than a bit of torture.

But there was i thinking that the US and the Coalition were helping Iraq be liberated, from an evil dictator who murdered and tortured his people.

911 - terrorists fly two planes into the World trade towers killing thousands..

iraq - Pictures show US soldiers Torturing prisoners, degrading them in specific ways that apply to their religion including sexual acts, beside reports of sevear beatings and rape and buggery.

Hell if we want to put all this 'into perspective'  How about we talk about AIDS?

What's terrible about the rash of torture in Iraq is that no one expected to find that Americans would be so brutal. No one, except the terrorists. Which makes these actions of terror our boys and girls did so treasonous. They've undercut the legitamacy of our occupation and everything America stands for.

These actions have left us bare, revealing us to be as evil as any Iraqi local or militant Islamist can imagine.

The tenuous thread of legitamacy behind our endeavour was the ONLY thing the US had in Iraq. Remember hearts and minds? These soldiers, their commanders, the Sec of Def, and the President have pissed it away.

It gives comfort to the enemy in the most direct form: by driving those people we came to save into the arms of our enemies.

this shit would have never happened if the european crusades didn't charge into the middle east and initiated jihad.

Religions start wars, not countries.

though, not all wars are started by religions...there is always some sort of religion involved such as World War 2.

1.  its prolly some BS pictures to make the US all shitty
2.  if its not those fucking iraqis deserve it.  we should torture/rape/kill every iraqi captive per American death, that way those fucking bastards wont hide in buildings and wear street clothes like pussy's.  they deserve every second of torture, dont fuck with the US.

And such tatics have had incredible success historically, right? It's a pity modern civilizations have to suffer fools like you so gladdly.

Your one very fucked up kid. Go get some counseling

mac gaming made me this way

Cow you gotta be joking.

Wow, I'm a militant right-wing Republican and cow even scared me with that.

lol....well, a little.  ;)

Then please please, go out side! heh go meet some different people, go get a pizza and sit in the park... and then go to the councilor

I love the hypocrisy of the other arab nations speaking out against these photos...amazing.

Be it on two very very different scales, I love the hypocrisy of the Us and Coalition speaking out against Saddamn Hussain and his treatment of the Iraqi people... amazing.

The hypocrisy on the part of the US and coalition is limited to the very few who committed these terrible acts. The United States government as a whole, does not support this.

The hypocrisy on the part of the other arab nations is an institutionalized hypocrisy. Their governments sanction the use of torture. That is very different from having a rouge group of soldiers act independent of the command structure.

"... is limited to the very few who committed these terrible acts."

"The United States government as a whole, does not support this."

"The hypocrisy on the part of the other arab nations is an institutionalized hypocrisy."

You sound like just another appologist. The reality is a bitter pill indeed.

Said by someone better spoken than me:

>>>
The Administration, and particularly Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, have been cavalier about American obligations under international law, including the Geneva Convention. International law and transparency, we are told, are unnecessary because, unlike all of the other countries in the world, we are Americans, and we naturally believe in human rights and the rule of law. We need no special incentives to be good. But if history teaches us anything, it is that when governments, no matter how well they think of themselves, decide to free themselves from constraints, they become unconstrained, and when they refuse to make themselves accountable, they abuse their power. The only thing that has been lacking until now has been the proof of what everyone should already have known: that unchecked power leads to hubris, hubris leads to corruption, and corruption leads to violations of human rights.

Americans are proud of their devotion to democracy, human rights, and the rule of law. But these cannot exist without institutional preconditions: they cannot exist if government officials insist on complete secrecy, mock international covenants, and refuse to allow their actions to be tested and constrained by law.

This Administration wanted secrecy. It wanted to be free of legal constraint. It wanted to do whatever it wanted whenever it wanted without ever having to be called to account for it.

Now it is reaping what it has sown.
<<<
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2004_05_02_balkin_archive.html#108381838979787981 (http://balkin.blogspot.com/2004_05_02_balkin_archive.html#108381838979787981)


OH!

And the red cross warned the US monthes ago.

>>>
However, the International Committee of the Red Cross said it warned American officials of prisoner abuse in Iraq more than a year ago and that the mistreatment was "not individual acts."


"There was a pattern and a system," Pierre Kraehenbuehl, the ICRC's director of operations, said in Geneva. Some of the actions were "tantamount to torture," he said. The ICRC findings were "discussed at different moments between March and November 2003, either in direct face-to-face conversations or in written interventions," Kraehenbuehl said.
<<<

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/05/07/red_cross_abuse/index.html (http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/05/07/red_cross_abuse/index.html)

I may be many things, sixhits, but I AM NOT AN APOLOGIST FOR RUMSFIELD. And honestly, I'm very offended that you'd think of me that way. I'd like nothing more than to see him, general meyers, and half the bush administration thrown out of office for this. But it's looking like I'll have to settle for Rumsfield. The rest can come in November.

Don't get me wrong, I AM VERY UPSET ABOUT THIS. I feel personally shamed by the actions of those soldiers. But at least I can think clearly enough to know that the actions of the few DO NOT represent the actions and beliefs of the many.

Yes, there was an effort to cover this up and I do believe it ran strait up the chain of command all the way to Rumsfield himself. But NO, that does not mean the US, the Army, or any other branch of our military has institutionalized torture. To do that is to do a serious disservice to the millions of men and women in our armed forces. It also makes quite clear your political blindness and your inability to see past the partisian bullshit.

Yes, serious crimes were commited. Yes, something will be done about it. Yes, I demand that those responsible both for the acts and for the coverup should be held up for the world to see and punished as severely as the law allows. But, NO, I will not sully the name of the other hard working men and women of our armed services who have done nothing wrong and continue to serve with distinction today.

I clearly misinterpreted what you wrote and jumped all over you for it.

The long and the short of it is, I appologize .

I do not believe that any of these superiors should be punished for what a few soldiers did.  I am really tired of people saying Rumsfeld and other military leaders should resign or be fired from their positions.  That doesn't solve anything.  I was actually in the military, and one thing that still stands in my mind is the Khobar Towers that were bombed in 1996.  Brigadier General Terryl Schwalier was fired in the incident as a scapegoat for the Clinton Administration.  I personally know Gen Schwalier and you will not meet a better leader.  Instead of blaming the bombing on Terrorists, Clinton blamed it on Gen Schwalier!  So he was rotated back to the U.S. Immediately and was almost brought up on Court-Martial charges!  They gave him an early retirement in 1997 instead, after Clinton had saved face for himself.  This is not how to run things.  You don't go around firing the commanders in charge for an action that they didn't even know about until AFTER it happened!  As for covering it up, I actually agree that something like this should be covered up lest the other countries in the Middle East find out about it and get in an uproar (which, low and behold, is exactly what happened).  Sure it was wrong.  And trust me, these guys would have been punished without all the media reporting of the incident.  But now it is just a big mess and the way to solve it is NOT to start firing good commanders and demanding resignations.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

Apology Accepted, sixhits.

I've also had contact with the US Military, GS, and the one thing I walked away with was the sense of responsibility commanders had for their troops. Every person I talked to earnestly felt like they were responsible for the actions of the people working under them. This is because they are the commander, they are the one in charge and should know if their troops are not following orders or acting in a way unbecoming a soldier.

I see your point about not firing random leaders, however, I do believe General Meyers and Rumsfield have made some errors regarding this situation that call for their resignations.

Meyers asked CBS to suppress the photos they had of the Iraqi torture victims. In my mind no US military officer has any right to ask CBS to suppress or even delay the publication of such information for reason, let alone for the obviously political ones shown here.

Rumsfield's major error was lack of communication and hesitation during the initial phases of the investigation. He himself has admitted as much. He knew what was going on but informed neither the President nor the Congress, even when he knew that media publication of the photos was imminent. He testified before congress 3 hours before the 60 minutes II presentation of the photos but said nothing about them. Again, I believe he kept quiet for political reasons.

I also believe that the situation in Iraq since the initial phase of the war has been a comedy of errors. The taking of Iraq was a display of the skill and expertise of our soldiers but nearly every step since then has been a mistake. The reconstruction of Iraq as it is today is nearly a complete failure. For this, I can hold no one else responsible other than Meyers and Rumsfield. They are the ones making the decisions about the occupation. They are the ones to hold responsible for it's failure.

That failure, coupled with this latest failure, is enough to make me call for their resignations. Let me put it another way. Were I in Rumsfield's shoes today, my conscience would force my resignation.

As for any other officers/soldiers involved, I have faith in the chain of command to seek them out and take appropriate action, especially now that there is so much media attention.

As sick as this is, it does not surprise me.  I've heard stories about U.S. solders doing these kinds of things in past wars/conflicts.  Making vids and passing them around to fellow solders, this time they got busted, GOOD!  There is over 2,000,000 untried prisoners being held by the U.S. as we type...this could give the red cross the go ahead on untold stories.

This not only hurts the solders in Iraq, but us all.  We went in to their country to give them liberty and JUSTIS.  I for one have seen non of this, they still have no power, water, let alone order.  It has made Iraq look like Saddam never left.  It's bad enough we lied to get in there or that the U.S. and British government gave Saddam Iraq through funding and intelligence. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's are dead men, woman, and children. But we don't hear about that.  Not even the 11,000+ U.S. wounded solders.  Trust me, their keeping a lot more then some sick prison pictures from us.

Doc

WHOA WHOA WHOA.....

Iraq is better off then it used to be. Do a little more research before you come in here posting your own facts.

"whoa".. firstly people won't listen to you unless u register, or at least post under your registerd name. Secondly, that isn't the same view that an increasingly large percentage of the iraqi population have. I agree iraq SHOULD be better off, and in some ways yes it is, but right now, the country is more unstable, more dangerous, and has more problems going for it than it did before the invasion. ANd that shouldn't have been the case. IF the coalition had done things properly it would be in a much much better state.

GS i agree with you that just court-marshaling a general, or getting a politician to resign isn't the solution. The root of the problem has to be addressed, and that root seems to be the behavior of some members of the army, and their attitude towards the iraqi people, well that is a guess so all we can say is that there are soldiers who should not be soldiers.

What i do find worrying however is the fact that the Red Cross visited this prison just under a year ago and had grave concerns which it informed the us administration of. These warnings were ignored and covered up. That suggests problems much much higher up the power tree - and Rumsfelts name has come up several times.

Exactly my point BFG, and the only way to deal with this kind of situation is to take extreme action. Rip it out by the roots. Treat it like cancer. You have to cut out the offending tissue to save the overall organism.

Rip out the people involved in the acts and subsequent coverup and rebuild.

Exactly. There is no point in simply skimming the surface and effectivly tryig to simply wash over the problem. Even if it creats a big nasty hole u gotta rip out the roots of the problem - or it simply comes back to haunt you. On the surface we have a situation where soldiers have crossed the line - crossed it beyond comprehension. But why have they done this. Where has the system failed? Why were there soldiers with this sort of mentality etc... but more inportantly how did this happen, why did the commanding officers let this happen, and why the hell have they been trying to cover it up!

... apppartnly there are two cases of murder of iraqi prisoners. The soldiers were kicked out the army - however no further action was taken against them... NO further action? who the hell are they kidding? so if im a soldier i can get away with murdering a prisoner and just get chucked out the army? FOR MURDER?

And yet there are hundreds of 'pow's, who are clasified as 'illigal combatants' and are not even given the right of a trial, or to even be told for what crimes they are being held for!!!

A little unjust perhaps?

Haven't any of you seen the journalist who broke this story on the major network news programs claiming that the CIA and US Army Human Exploitation Division is behind these interrogation techniques?  He has promised to reveal more proof of the depths of involvement in this operation.  

NO but i would sure as hell like to read it...

Mean while over hear investigations are still going on... and they really can't work out if the photo's of the Bristish soldiers are real or faked.

(http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tt/2004/tt040421.gif)

I actually came across this when i was doing a research project involving political cartoons recently.

Three comments.

First, I guess it now becomes obvious why the USA will not sign a treaty that submits the USA to the rule of the International Court.

Second, One or two problems of this nature could be understood as the actions of individuals. The number now shown points to obvious systematic breakdown of the chain of command, or condoning of the actions by that chain of command. In either case there is a problem that the commander in chief sould be accountable for.

Finally, anyone who condones the torture or treatment of any human in this way, or attempts to justify it because the previous regime did worse, well I don't really need to pass comment on them, they have done so themselves.

Thats what really annoyed me with bush's televised 'apology'. He spent all the time saying how terrible the regime was and how they had done this sort of stuff and that well mistakes happen in democracy but don't forget that saddamn did this and this is what he did to u and we are helping you and this happended before etc.....

Not once did he actually say "I am extreamly sorry, what has happend is horrific and there can be no excuse"

- he just mixed it up into a propaganda gurge. No wonder people spat it back in his monky ass face.

There is a reason you will never hear President Bush apologize in this way.  If he did so, that little clip of video would be the hallmark of the Democrats new campaign ad.  For that very reason alone, you will never hear the President apologize.

     How silly of me. For a moment there, I thought that smoothing the tension between the Fundamentalist States of America and the Muslim world would take priority over worrying about being reelected. I gotta remember--the future beyond the next four years doesn't matter to Bush.

lol yeah silly Loth. There were you thinking that the relationship between East and West has hit an all time world and that bridges desperately need to be built and communications re-established.... When all thats inportant is that That Chimp gets a chance to sit on the roost for a bit longer!

As an update:

Shit really does roll downhill.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41341-2004May19.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41341-2004May19.html)

"SENIOR U.S. COMMANDERS in Iraq insist that they never approved harsh interrogation techniques for Iraqi prisoners. Yet those same commanders now acknowledge that abusive practices were employed against detainees all over Iraq -- not just at Abu Ghraib prison -- and in Afghanistan."

and

"Some of the methods that the commanders say were never sanctioned in Iraq -- and that, most experts believe, violate the Geneva Conventions -- were nevertheless listed on a sign posted at Abu Ghraib under the heading "Interrogation Rules of Engagement.""

and

"The Bush administration still tries to blame a few low-ranking reservists who served at Abu Ghraib. But a more convincing answer can be found in a memo submitted to President Bush by White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales in January 2002. In the memo, which was first disclosed by Newsweek magazine, Mr. Gonzales explained why he believed Mr. Bush should ignore State Department objections to his decision to exclude Afghanistan detainees from the Geneva Conventions. The presidential counsel derided the conventions as "quaint" and "obsolete" and claimed that setting them aside would, among other things, make it harder for prosecutors to charge Americans under U.S. law for alleged crimes against prisoners -- something he presented as a "positive." Such contempt for the rule of law pervaded his argument -- and was endorsed by Mr. Bush."




Oh, and the kicker?

"Mr. Gonzales did, however, point out several risks. Among them, he said, was the danger that "a determination that [Geneva] does not apply to al Qaeda and the Taliban could undermine U.S. military culture which emphasizes maintaining the highest standards of conduct in combat, and could introduce an element of uncertainty in the status of adversaries.""

Ghost:

The greatest strength of America has always been it's moral character.

Think about the ideals that America was founded on: of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Think of how Americans cherish our moral high ground.

And then think about what you said. That if torturing random ppl, because what we are doing is picking up random ppl, saves just one American life then it's worth it. And then think whether or not the founders would agree with you. Whether or not honest Americans would agree with you.

Btw, you and I both know you don't have to cut off fingers to get information out of ppl.

And have you considered what America becomes when we allow torture? When it is endorsed from the highest levels? When our leaders, who take us to war to protect our way of live corrupt our most cherished values? At some point the value of victory is non-existant - if we have to win it this way.

At the end it it all I don't want to live in another version of Nazi Germany, of Communist Russia, of Saddam's Iraq. Those regimes rationalized the evil they did. And what did America do to them? We killed them. Because evil is evil, Ghost, no matter who is commiting it.

Sounds like we're on the way to a pyrrhic victory - a moral pyrrhic victory. If what we are doing is what we mush then the victory is not worth winning, as it has cost us who we are.

wrong, the greatest strenght of america always was the dollar.

Moral comes after business, didnt you learn that already ????

Somtimes i wish i had a bucket by my computer. So when i read things that i found so disgusting, so sickening, things that made me ashamed to be human, i could just stick my head in and chuck by guts up.

Ghost you destroy everything good that we think of America representing. Its people like you with those attitudes that turn everyone against the US, and more often for good reason.

What the fuck is the difference between an american life and any other life? Absolutly jack shit. one person has a US parsport and the us flag shoved up their ass, the other doesn't.

Opps, wrong.

Start from Day 1. What did the US have over everyone else? Moral crediblity.  Dude, the dollar didn't rock until the 20's. The 1920's. Before that it was all about the British pound.

ps. I actually believe GS has his heart in the right place. Which is why I argue with him.

How does torturing to death a lone enemy private save American lives? If you're talking about information, there's not too much info a dead man can give you.

So would you be in favor of bringing out nukes?

Just musings...

Jesus Fucking christ you are a bloody sick bastard somtimes

you know, although im sure that GS knows 7 forms of unarmed leathal combat and all that shit. i was there when he said what he just wrote, i would--with out a doubt, without one word said-- sock him in the mother fucking face.--- i don't even care if i got my ass beat, or i was killed.

i hope that when all the arabs and such get power, when they get nukes. i hope you get the worst form of radiation poison, lung cancer, all that bullshit, i am so pissed off i cant mother fucking think straight.

you are a scum bag.
i don't care what you've "done" for your country.
what military services you've been in.
i don't fucking care what wars or fighting you've been in.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS "UN-AMERICAN"
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS "UN-PATRIOTIC"

just die, the whole world would be better off without you.

Look, when you've seen as many of your friends come home in wooden boxes as I have, you might just feel differently.

I have now lost more than half of my entire Ranger class.  OVER HALF!  1 in 2 of all of my friends are DEAD.  If torturing one of those people that had information could have saved just ONE of them, It would not bother me in the slightest.

Sorry if that makes me somewhat bitter.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

Ghost, i appologize for my words in that post. it seems to me that with all of your first hand combat experience, and losses might make you more enlightened, and almost anti-war. i understand that the losses of your friends would make you bitter-- and now enlightened of this fact inspires my appology-- but you must realize that war, won't make war go away. war, and anger won't stop suicide bombing and anger. Someone has to be the bigger man, suck up their grief and anger, and just say no more. don't let the deaths of your friends be forgotten through more sensless killing. don't let them just become a statistic. People with first hand experience and passion, such as yourself, have the most influence on the public. Be the one who makes a difference through words and intellect, not killing and violence.

P.s. i am sorry for you and your friends.

Ghostsniper, I understand why you feel the way you do. If I had lost even one friend in such a way, I'm absolutely positive I'd feel the same way. But it's overcoming that emotion, that animal instinct to strike back that was the core of Jesus' teachings. The ends sometimes don't justify the means. This is one of those times.

I believe that above all else, humans were put on this earth for one reason: to take care of each other. Part of being human is seeing past the hate, seeing past the pain. Sacrificing our humanity to save lives is too high a price to pay. We've come too far as a society, too many lives have already been given up, to let us slip back to our most primal of instincts.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a pacifist. It's just that I firmly believe that force should only be used as a last resort. That only solutions that produce long term peace should be enacted.

Though that is not the only reason that kind of torture is wrong. It's very counterproductive in the long term. Yes, we will save some lives in the immediate future, but long term those kind of actions only create more enemies who will kill more of our friends.

I'd like to end this speech with a quote. Ten points to the guy who can guess who said it.

"The greatest changes the world has ever seen came not by force of arms, but by open arms."

Damnit Shark, don't apologize to GS. You were right. What he said was un-American and unpatriotic. The stupid fuck obviously doesn't realize what our country stands for. Props to you for calling him on it. As usual, he went and tried to play on your emotions to distract everyone from his stupidity.

GS, don't cheapen the deaths of your fellow soldiers by using that as an excuse for your ignorant comments. That's straight up no class.

You join the Army for only a few reasons. And for someone to be unaware of the dangers is unbelievable. The fact your friends died of course is terrible. However they were doing their jobs, and they chose to be doing what they did. You are in a situation of "them or us" and you chose that situation. You cannot jusity what you said simply becasue fellow soldiers along side you died.


Shark i think you were spot on on what you said.

And the hits just keep on coming.

Now it's turning out that despite our best efforts, the brutal torture of those Iraqi prisoners yielded very little useful information. Who would have thought torture wasn't an effective interrogation method?

Prison Interrogations in Iraq Seen as Yielding Little Data on Rebels (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/27/politics/27ABUS.html?ei=5062&en=34417083b8bdeeb4&ex=1086235200&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=)

I guess they forgot that when you threaten someone you're more likely to get the answer you want than the truth.

Wicked Witch:
"I'm going to let this dog bite off your balls. Who's the fairest one of all?

Iraqi Civilian:
"You are! You are!"

That's because we were not TORTURING them!  Don't you dare sit there and say that those Iraqi's have been TORTURED.  Humiliated maybe.  But Tortured?  Give me a break.  If you want to know what torture is, you need to go talk to one of the American Soldiers that was a POW of the North Vietnamese, or of the Japanese during WWII.  Those men can tell you something about what torture is.

By the way, the reason we havn't gotten good intelligence out of those prisoners is because we WERE NOT torturing them!  We are just sitting there asking them questions and when they don't respond that's about it.  Let me at those fuckers and I bet you any amount of money I can get information out of them.

Funny, but the only country on the planet that even TRIES to follow the Geneva Convention is the United States.

Good Article.
"Most of our useful intelligence came from battlefield interrogations, and at the battalion, brigade and division-level interrogation facilities," said a senior military intelligence officer who served in Iraq. Once prisoners were sent on to Abu Ghraib, the officer said, "we got very little feedback."

I wonder what idiot thought it would be a good idea to use Saddam's old torture fortress as an interrogation center...?
We should be trying to bribe people to get information, instead of detaining and interrogating them...that would be a lot more american, imo.

I take it you don't understand what torture is. Perhaps you should go refer to what it means, and what an organisation like Amnesty International has to say about this.

Don't you dare try and defend thse actions as "humiliation". Serious abuse, assault, phychological abuse and  TORTURE.

Here's another one: this one is the torture:

Whack! An Iraqi finger rolls off the table.

Iraqi Jihadist: (screaming in pain and shock)
"Oh Allah! Protect me!"

Wicked Witch:
"You're God is smaller than my God. Remember the anal rape we gave you the other day? Because of that you'll never see Allah's shinning face. Now tell us who's the fairest one of all?"

Iraqi Jihadist (sans finger):
"You are! You are!"

Wicked Witch:
"That's not the right answer!"

Wack! Another finger rolls away in a spew of blood.

Iraqi Jihadist:
"Oh Allaaaaaah ... The fairist one of all is ... Bush? He's such... such a man."

Wack, wack

Wicked Witch:
"Wrong again! And remember, because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior I can do anything I want and still get into Heaven. WHO'S THE FAIREST OF THEM ALL?!"

Iraqi Jihadist: (whimmering, defeated)
"I just don't know... tell me what you want me to say... "

Wicked Witch:
"The Democratics."

Iraqi Jihadist: (siezing on hope)
"The Democrats are the fairest ones of all!"

Wicked Witch: (picking up the phone)
"He just fingered the Dems. Round them all up and shoot them."

Sorry, I don't see any fingerless Iraqis.

Sorry, I don't see any Iraqis with their eyes cut out.

Sorry, I don't see where we mutilated a single Iraqi (living, at least).

Sorry, I don't see where we cut off the head of one of the prisoners, then threw it in the drinking water of the other prisoners.

Sorry, I don't see where we shoved a glass rod into the penis of an Iraqi and then crushed it inside his penis with a hammer.

Please excuse me if I don't think that psychological tactics to extract information is torture.

I think you guys are all forgetting that these are ENEMIES OF THE UNITED STATES.

You are like the morons claiming that Bush is responsible for Nick Berg getting his head chopped off, instead of the TERRORISTS THAT DID IT.

Or the other morons that claim that it is Bush's fault the World Trade Center was destroyed, instead of the TERRORISTS THAT FLEW THE PLANES INTO THEM.

Give me a fucking break.  It's time you people start realizing that these fuckers are the ENEMY, not GEORGE BUSH!

You're excused. You're also wrong.

Here's a guy getting beaten. But, like, he doesn't really feel it. He's too scared from seeing the other below beaten to death.

[Image removed.]

Here's a dead Iraqi. I wonder if he died of old age? Or if he died in order to set an example for the others?

[Image removed.]

Here's a man being sat on. I'm sure that's all in his head. Or on his head.

[Image removed.]

And here's Arab men being force to pretend to perform oral sex on each other, while other Arab men are forced to masterbate.

Nothing un-Christian about what our soldier's did to these guys!

[Image removed.]

For two: These men are NOT the enemy. As has been widely reported, the prisoners in these photos are 90% randomly siezed from the streets. Yah, we came to free them from tryanny, but staid for the torture, rape, and murder.

And yes, yes - Bush is not the enemy. But, you know what he really is? He's failed us. He's weakened us. He's humiliated us. He's put the lie to the truth that America stands for freedom and liberty.


i'm waiting with baited breath and a heavy heart for the pictures of what we did to the women.


[Enough with the pictures already. Ace]

(http://www.bartcop.com/bo040527.gif)

I think that highlights somthing. A major fault - you see it allways as "Us and Them" and they are the enemy. THEY ARN"T ALL TERRRORISTS! Jesus one of the guys that has died in these 'prisons in iraq' well a well though of 50somthing scientist - he was arrested becasue he had had met Saddamn hussain several times. He had no interest in helping saddamn ect, but that is irrelevant if saddam wanted you to help him...

So many of these guys have done nothing wrong - hence now why america has backed down and released so many of them WIHTOUT CHARGE. Well of course without charge - they didn't do anything wrong. Im not saying all of them - just most.

There seems to be this problem that so many people just lump situations into black and white, "good v evil" - "them and us" . Its fatal - and america is digging itself into a bloody great hole if this goes on.

Perhaps your failed to see in your media GS About your guy's 'prized' Delta force, accused of half drowning prisoners underwater... apparently keeping someone on the verge of drowning for sustained periods is not torture?


So standing a guy, hooded on a box with wires attached to his fingers, and enforcing into him the beliefe that if he moves, or slips then he will be electrocuded and killed? Hanging a guy from his door by his arms when he has a broken sholder is not torture? No im sure it was just a bit of psyching him out wasn't it.


There is one word for this. you obviously don't like the word but its all still there: American troops have been TORTURING Iraqi Prisoners.

GS, you are a shitty ass debater. Any five year old knows that two wrongs do not make a right, so close your fucking yap the next time you try to bring up other torture incidents in a feeble attempt to justify what a few dumbfucks have done in Iraq.

Also, as a self-proclaimed patriot, you should realize that the American way is to afford these people certain inalienable rights (cough *Eighth Amendment* cough) regardless of whether they are guilty or innocent. Even to those who are not our citizens.

Not only that. But if you want to win this "war on terrorism" this is not the way to achive it. The only way to change these peoples' view of America and parts of the Western world is to prove them wrong - these actions in iraq only gave them the proof they needed to back up their beliefs.

This 'war' is not a battle to be fought with guns and bombs, you will only end up fighting the survace problem. It has to start with re-education, on all sides. Treating fellow humans in such shocking ways has done irrefutable damage to the Image of the US accross the world.

The War on Terrorism can never be won.  Terror has existed in the world since humans existed, and it's not going to stop.  Like in Vietnam, we can win all the battles, but never win the war.

I guess it all depends where you place the goal posts as we say... and what you consider "winning" the "war" actually means..

I consider what was done to those prisoners to be severe psychological torture. Also, 37 prisoners have been murdered in US captivity since the war began, many of them during interrogation/softening up sessions. If bodies aren't a clear indication torture is taking place, I don't know what is.

As I said before, torture is not an effective method of extracting new information from people. A person under torture will say anything to make it stop, fuck the truth, they'll tell the torturer anything to stop the pain.

And I'd say we aren't the only ones who try to follow the geneva convention. Our POWs held by iraq during the invasion were treated very well by all accounts. Our treatment of Iraqi POWS on the other hand... well, I'm sure you've all seen the pictures by now.

I'd like to stress that these prisoners were not "enemy combatants" or "enemies of the state". Many were innocent civilians and uniformed iraqi military personnel who have rights under international law. The only thing the torture of those prisoners did was confirm that all US prisoners taken from now on WILL be tortured and many killed. How can we expect the enemy to care for our POWs when we don't care for theirs?

So maybe what you were trying to say was: "Funny, but the only country on the planet that even TRIED to follow the Geneva Convention is the United States." because we sure don't seem to try to follow the Geneva Convention these days...