*DAMN R6 Forum

I just posted this on the MP site (http://mp.macclans.com), thought I may as well share it here too.

Appleworks 6 is almost 4 years old. Where is our iOffice?

I'm glad that Apple has continued to update Appleworks 6. And it still works fine as a basic spreadsheet or word processor. But I expect more.

Yes, I have been spoiled by iLife, give me more.

First, why I don't like Microsoft Office? Two simple reasons. I don't want to support Microsuck, the last thing they did that made me happy was IE5 for the mac back on OS9. The other reason being that they have bloated Office out of control. They've made it so each application can do everything that the other applications can do. What a waste of space and time, not to mention slowing down the app.

Second, what about OpenOffice? I used to use starOFFICE on the PC, which is now OpenOffice. I liked it. All the functionality and none of the bloat. But it is X11 only, and will be until late 2005. That's a problem.

Now, I look at Appleworks and wonder why Apple can't put the same effort they have into iLife for that.

They can lose the draw and paint programs (or, if they want return them to MacPaint and MacDraw, since they feel like that was the last time they were updated).

They can lose the database. MS Office doesn't include Access by default, people have to pay extra for it. Let the people by Filemaker if they want a database, it's much better anyway.

What do we need? A word processor, a spreadsheet and a presentation program. Well Keynote has been out for a while, and puts the Appleworks presentation app to shame. So we need for them to do what they did with Keynote, and apply that same effort to a word processor and spreadsheet! Bundle them up as iOffice, or even as part of the larger iLife suite. Face it, Word processing and spreadsheets are more important to our iLife than iDVD is.

One last thing. Give the mail app the ability to see newsgroups. That is the one feature that I keep Entourage on my computer for.

What's the point of newsgroups anyway?  All I see them as is a place for ppl to post things, but I dont get how they work.  For example, who looks at them and how do you start news (ie, start a thread), whats the point?

Also, I heard Appleworks sucks.  I have never used it myself, but apparently the word processor on it is nothing compated to QuarkXPress, which is the app I always use for word processing and as of late I have also used Word for mac, it has some features that QuarkXPress doesn't have.

I personally love AppleWorks.  I've been using it since back when it was ClarisWorks, and it has always done just fine for me.

Now, using QuarkXPress for word processing is like using an 18-wheeler to pull your 1,000 pound boat.  A bit of overkill, isn't it?

That's because Quark isn't a word processor.

Newsgroups are old internet technology.  This forum would have been a news group in the past.  There are still many newsgroups that are more active than anything on the web.  

Unless Microsoft stop Office for mac (which i doubt in the near future... why stop somthing you make money from!) then i don't think we will see iOffice ... I just dont' think apple think they can do iOffice that much better than the compertition like htey have been able to do with itunes and iphoto etc...

iOffice would also need to have seriouse power for professionals yet still be simple for home folk... a difficult balence i think for this sort of program

Recently, Office has stopped running on my machine.  When i open it, it says I have it installed on too many computers (this may or may not be true), and it quits.  So for the last few months I've been using TextEdit for my word processing.  It is horrible.  I would buy AppleWorks if they made that into a real word processor, but otherwise I'm just gonna have to stick to emailing my papers to myself and editing them on a different computer.

I've been using Appleworks and Clarisworks for as long as I can remember, and to this day, I still use Appleworks, because it is just so amazingly easy, and yet I can still do anything that I need to with it. I personally don't care about anything new that Apple could throw at me in terms of a Word competitor, because Appleworks already has everything I could want or need. 'Nuff said.

The only reason that Apple doesn't try to move on this territory is that most of the working world is on Office.  Basically it is thinking about all of the inhouse designers and corporate people that work on apples, a pretty large percentage.  Basically for the best functionality and work flow between platforms they feel it is easier for Microsoft to make them work seamlessly with each other.  Of course it doesn't and that is why we complain.  But when I need to import table data, graphs or other large bodies of text into layout and design programs I am happy my Mac version of office works as best as it can, unlike many of the other Mac and 3rd party Word processing and such programs.

I remember hearing of a small project way back when of Apple trying to tackle this market so that they could be more attractive to the regular desktop user.  I also heard they hired a bunch of old Microsoft people to work on this.  But, things must of fell through or a different target and plan occured.  All I know is that until apple gets back on this and makes it work right, the rest of the corporate world using macs pretty much has to suck it up and buy that Microsoft lisence.

I know that QuarkXPress is not a word processor, but I don't think its overkill b/c its so simple to use.  It was the 1st software I ever learned to use.  I started using it when I was 17 in high school and I still use it university and I'm 28, its a great software.  

Whats Appleworks latest version?  and, for those that have used both Appleworks and Word for mac, without getting into a PC vs Mac pissing contest, can you tell me which is easier, better, and has better features?

Hands down, Word has better features.  It had better features when Appleworks 6 came out.  

I'm bitching because I hate being limited in my options.

Appleworks is at 6.2.9

BTW, FahQ2, Apple made a big push for Appleworks to be able to import and export to MS Office document types a few years back.  I think that's as far as they got.

Also, QuarkXPress allows you to convert yer document to a pdf file, whereas Word doesnt, at least I can't see that it can.

Now in OSX you can, also if you have the full version of Acrobat also, it supports this feature in word.

OSX will convert anything to PDF.  All you have to do is hit print, then, in the print options, hit save as PDF.


MS Office actually checks the license to see how many copies are running.  I remember connecting to my home computer from my laptop while I was on the road.  I had left MS Office running on my home machine, and when I connected to it, my laptop wouldn't open Word for the same reason.  

One more form of anti-piracy that MS put into place.


That would make more sense to me if Apple hadn't released Keynote, which is in direct competition with PowerPoint, and the presentation part of AppleWorks.  

They made that work for both pro and home user alike.  

One other thing.  iLife isn't about the high end.  iMovie isn't the same as Final Cut Pro.  So, iOffice wouldn't have to do everything that MS Office can do.  But like I said, MS Office is too bloated for my tastes.

Maybe since Corel Office was made for Linux, they will port it over to the Mac soon.  WordPerfect 11 suits me much better than Word does.

Oh, and I don't know about most of you, but I use spreadsheets much more often than word processors.

that would be because you have installed the same copy (with the same serial number) on more than one computer on your network! ?

Doesn't have to just be on the network.  Damn pesky public serial numbers.

The main reason that I hate using Word is because it's from Microsoft.

The second main reason that I hate using Word is because it does not allow me the freedom of formatting my document as easily as Appleworks does.



Anytime I want to make an indentation, it will naturally assume that I want that indentation for every paragraph.

Anytime I want to have a number or a bullet or letter opening a paragraph, it will naturally assume that I want to continue the sequence for every paragraph.

Anytime I want to write a Spanish paper, it will naturally assume I'm trying to write in English, and am a God-Awful speller, and it'll sure as hell let me know it.

Anytime I want to write a URL, it will naturally assume that I want it underlined, blue, and clickable. NO ONE'S GOING TO FUCKING CLICK MY PRINTED PAPER WITH THEIR FUCKING FINGER... STUPID PROGRAM.

Anytime I want to purposely misspell something (I can't think of a real reason right now... but yah...) it will naturally assume that I want the real spelling, and it will constantly fix the word, no matter how many times I delete and retype it differently.

Anytime I want to add a sentence to the middle of my paper, it will naturally assume that I think the rest of my paper blows, and that I want to delete the rest of it as I type my new sentence. FUCK YOU OVERTYPE MODE... WORST FEATURE OF ALL.



Now, I'm sure you are all going to tell me that there are fixes for each of these things, and that some of them are beneficial. But the point I'm trying to make is that with Appleworks, you don't NEED a fix, because it lets you do whatever the hell you want to do without assuming it knows more about what you want to do than YOU do.

I use quarkxpress as a graphic designer, its as easy as Word (even mb easier) and it allows you to do anything with text you want it to do. There is no other program that has the smooth and fast way of handeling text for the moment. Adobe Indesign is to slow and you need a really fast comp to use it. I tried comparing it between my iMac G3 and my dual 1Gig G4 at work, and now my G5. And now I can finally work with Indesign, without having to wait for 10 secs before my picture box moves an inch. Now I think Indesign over classes Quarkxpress with all of its options, but if you just need to put some text into an A4, Xpress still does the trick.
And I use it for when I have to write a simple lettre to someone. I don't bother starting up Word, waiting untill its loaded and then have to search for the option where I can put my text in bold, or underline it. Not to mention all the things that happen to your text (see Snipe's post) without even asking for it.

As for pdf's from Word, they are good to send by mail, or to put them on the web, but if you want to make a good printable pdf, you still need Adobe Acrobat. I tested the save to pdf thing several times for a print pdf (high definition) and the thing just doesn't come out well. It always has some kind of error or leaves out words and other things. The safest way is still saving it to a postscript file and running it trough the Acrobat Distiller.

The only thing I use Word for is to convert PC texts. Because a lot of ppl I work for send their files in Word docs. But nowadays a lot of them also thinks they can start designing their selves, usings apps like Publisher and other progs. Then I have to sort out that fuckin mess to put into a clean workin doc that prints easily on our digital printer...
Oh man I hate Word, but I still have to use it every day...

If you only need to make printable docs, just use quarkxpress. Open a new doc, put in the page size, the margins you want and click automatic textbox. And it works the same way as Word.
 ;)

Guys, you are talking about using a $600 program to do what AppleWorks does for $69.  That's all fine and dandy if you already have Quark, but let's be realistic....unless you pirated it, most of the 15 year olds on this forum don't have it.

I've been using AppleWorks for a long time, and it works fast, and it is just fine for day to day word processing.

Not only that GS, but I don't think anyone posting here about Quark has ever had the program go to shit on you.  Quark is notorious for being one of the worst comsumer responsive companies in the world.  If you need to call the help desk with recurring glitches or problems, or it just stops working, just throw the goddamn computer away.  I have dealt with many comps in graphics that when quark starts going haywire it slowly seeps into the rest of your files and programs.  Dont ask me how or why, but its happened to at least 20 people I know and me personally.  At least when word goes ape shit crazy you can fix the problem most of the time.  If quark goes down, call for help, it's going to be a long long day.

And yeah, Quark only upgrades for around $400 also.  I admit AppleWorks is pretty good, but for overall functionality on cross platforms, it sucks compared to word.  Ever typed something really nice with margins, some tables, little picts and other shit and then taken it to school to print or work on it there.  Most schools are PC so you are shitted on, and trying to save it in a universal format means you just lost your formatting and get ready to do a lot of shit work.

Errhmm sorry, Quark 6.0 is around 2110?... 600$ will get you a license to use Passport 4.1, but you had to buy the original first  :o
Indesign is 1130? and Appleworks is 85? ;)

But you can't do the same thing with Appleworks as with Quark 6 or Indesign.
But you are right, ppl can afford Appleworks...

There are things that Word does in the business world (not printing world) that Quark and Appleworks can't touch.  It's just most people here aren't into that world.

Change management is a good example.  With ISO 9000 being required of many companies, document change management is an issue.  With Word, it keeps track of who made changes, even saving the old text as a strike out if you tell it you want to see it.  There are plenty of things you can do with Word that Quark can't touch.  Not everything is a simple letter to grandma or a term paper.  Think about writing a book in Quark, hundreds of pages and hundreds of thousands words.  Then think of searching it, making format changes to just some items, etc.  There are things built into Word that most of you probably haven't seen.

I still don't like word for just writing a letter to grandma, but there are plenty of places where it does pay to use it over Quark or Appleworks.  

Snipe, you can turn all of those off, but you are right, for the simple stuff, Microsoft's automation actually makes it harder.

     Funny that you should mention change tracking, in light of this recent /. story (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/30/0021253&mode=thread&tid=109&tid=187).

Well Bucc, all the things you said could be automated in Quark aswell, even better. Those things aren't common knowledge to most ppl. But if you work day in day out with Quark, you find all these things.
Searching a word you mistyped in a 160 pages catalog is easy, you can even change all the ? to ? and other exempls. automatic. If you have a background page on every page you can use masterpages so when you have to move the spot of it, you only have to move it once and quark does the rest for you.  Using style sheets for all the titles and sub-titles and all other things... In Indesign you even have lots more options for such things.
I know a lot of ppl that make their books directly in quark, a guy I work for has a 1000+ pages book about all the different orchids in the world. He notes things down on a paper and when he comes home he puts it in Quark on his comp.
Don't think Word is superior to Quark, its just cheaper and more affordable for most ppl and companys.

I hope some computerbrain will bring out a new, fast and easy to use wordprocessor with the power of Indesign... But then again, you can buy Indesign.

Its a bit of a odd comparison isn't it?; Word v Quark... Quark being an industry standard DP app, and word being.. well a word processor! In terms of layout and control i think Quark wins hands down.. on a easy to write a letter level...  word wins.

Now a discussion between indesign and Quark would make more sense.. although i have very very little experience in indesign and i hear Quark is still the daddy ;)

if its simple use word... if you need a highter level of control and design power re: fonts etc use quark.