*DAMN R6 Forum

Okay, I have spoken up about this in several other threads and now I think I should just create a new thread to state my case.

I think Mauti should seriously consider having Term Limits for the Admins of the Battle League.  Maybe 2 Seasons and then replace them with new admins.  Although recent admin decisions are partly the reason I feel this way, I also think that permanent admins breed corruption.

I know not all BL Admins are doing a bad job.  But some of them do have personal agendas and do play favoritism with their friends in the League.

So, as a *DAMN Supporter (which probably doesn't mean much), I ask Mauti to set term limits for the Battle League Admins.  My suggestion is to have a term limit of 2 Seasons.

Okay, maybe not replace EVERY admin every two seasons.  How about we have a certain number of Permanent Admin....say Elandrion, Civic, Flies, and Bucc.  And then make all of the other admins rotate every 2 Seasons.  And I am not doing this because I want an admin spot, I actually already had a BL Admin spot and I gave it to someone else.  I just see the Battle League going a bit down hill and thought this might be a way to help it out some.

-GhostSniper Out.

I'm not sure I really agree. Look at long term admins, like Elandrian, Hazard and voodoo. They have greater experience with the battle league, and more respect for the compitition, and the honor which the bl needs. In my view, its the new admins who cause the problems. More likely to go with their friends, rather than the rules. The old admins are from a time of a smaller community, with more respect for the rules. In my opinion, we should judge them on their merits, rather than on the time they served.

-I.m not sure if this was coherent, it's early monday morning...

I find it somehow perverted that you even mention this.. .

Other than that, I liked it better before admin positions were given out to the left and right. It should be earned, not be given as a trophy.. . Hard to define how to earn it though.

Right now there are several admins that in my personal oppinion have absolutly no business there, but rotating them out of there might bring even worse to "power"

Ghost Sniper, that really wasn't called for, and I find it insulting.  We have guidelines on what's to be delleted, edited, and left alone.  This is one part of your post that falls under it as provoking flames.  

You should know by know that crap like that only hurts your arguments.


Ha.  GS, you are out of touch.  You should really read some of what went on behind the scenes, that even involved your own clan.  Ask around, get the full story.  But don't keep crying a river of tears, spinning the situation like that.  

BTs was banned for one reason and one reason only.  They flat out told the BL that they would not abide by the decision of the Admins, even after they got the Admins to vote on it a second time with the same results.  Granted, some of BTs didn't know or realize it was happening.  But the fact is, it did happen.  

You want to talk about term limits, go right ahead, it's a worthy topic.  But by mud slinging this kind of bullshit in the grandest traditions of Rush Limbaugh, ignoring the facts that don't fit, you just weaken your case, not strengthen it.

I also agree with Spike.  There are good people that shouldn't be excluded just because of time.  Also, the theory behind having each clan represented would have to be thrown out, because some small clans would have all it's members reach the limits.

You have to look at the problem you are trying to solve, and address it properly.  If you are unhappy with the quality of some of the Admins, then you should look for a way to censure just those Admins, without punishing those doing a good job.

One last note, having been on the inside.  You have very little idea of who's doing a good or bad job until you've been in there.  Different people have a different idea of what is a good job, and as long as you are basing your story off third person information, you can't really count on it being non-biased.  If you are basing it off of the decisions reached, than you should really take a look at the whole debate, see who was saying what, who was putting forth an effort, before you jump to any conclusions.

Go back a bunch of pages, a few months in time, and you will see that Network and BTs pushed hard to have a board of directors, with a member from each clan, to be the admins of the BL.  This way, each clan had an equal say in both the rules, and how they were applied, and how disputes were solved.  I find it very ironic how much that system has been attacked by the very people that pushed for it in the first place.  

I know a BTs brought this whole thing up.  Please BTs guys, exclude all occurences from this last season from all topics.  It is best we let the issue die instead of beating the corpse over and over again with a pole.  We are not winning any hearts by constantly bickering here and we are losing respect by bringing it up and up.

No matter how we feel about what happened, well it did happen.  Nothing we can do about it now.  Now I know you were trying to use the situation as support for the argument, at least in some way or manner.  But really, it creates no room for progress and only brings back old flames.

We stood up for what we believed already.  Over and out.

In post.

I for one still think the admin idea is great since we get the opinion of many instead of one.  Lessens the place for error.  Whether or not someone is doing well, well bucc is right.  How do we know, most of everything is argued in a private forum and there is no way to really tell what is going on.  Plus, you have to give these people credit for taking the time to even do what they do.  It's not like anyone gets anything out of being an admin.  So respect the extra time they take to do it.  If someone is a bad seed, well I have said it in the past.  Call them out.  Name names and point fingers.  It's the only way to get something done and to kill the problem at the root.

Yes, Ghostsniper I completely agree with Fahq2 here, and by posting your concerns with this issue in topic discussions that have nothing to do with this is quite crap.  So again plz refrain from spammin ure personal issues in forum topics that are not linked to that in any way shape or form.  when I post a topic I want an honest opinion about the issue and to possibly resolve it.  by you doing your posting on this in other topics it is creating issues with possible flaming that I think should be somewhat contained to a specific area in this forum.  Admins, plz take out his topics in the other topics and mine as well to his reply.  Located in the Domination topic that was started.  Thanks.

:MoD:saberian

Okay, I amended my argument to make exactly what I was trying to say a little more clear.  Go back and look at it again.  Wasn't trying to insult anyone (well, a few, but you know who you are).

Which is a pretty seriouse allergation, considering this is what every single Admin strives not to do, and the way we make decisions and vote is designed to mean it is never a factor. Rather than hinting would it not be simpler to just say exactly with whom you are unhappy with and for what exact reason, especailly with reference to them having ?

Fine i accept their are people that think there are problems, but general accusations arn't going to solve anything.

Okay, looks like I can't get out of this with out mentioning names.  But the particular case I'm looking at is with Typhy and vooDoo.  Although voodoo is not in the same RvS clan with Typhy, he is in another clan with Typhy in a different ladder.  Now, admins are supposed to stay out of rulings that they are directly involved in in a particular clan, so technically voodoo didn't do anything wrong.  BUT, as voodoo is in another clan with Typhy, I don't see how nobody has looked upon this in an unfavorable light.  So, at the very least a rule should be made to fix this from ever happening again.  Now, I do not have direct proof that favoritism is involved, but it sure looks fishy from my perspective.

i heard somebody else say this a couple days ago, so i went and counted total cb's from season 7 compared to 5 and 6. i can understand if you think something could be done better to help the bl, but go check the numbers before making a statement like the bl is going downhill.

Ok .. Ghost.. please talk to me before you post again. I have some info that I worked out with some of the admins regarding past decisions made. Now Bucc, this comes from me with love, please remember what we talked about, this might help things get taken care off with alittle less flame. Thanks bro.

As for the issue GhostSniper brought up.

I am not sure I agree with the whole removal after 2 seasons. But maybe something like this.
When a New Admin is nominated the community gets to vote and have to give reasons for voting either way. Then Mauti/Elandrion would make final decision.

Then every 2 or 3 seasons they are up for renewal. Basically people can vote again if there is one needed.

Just a suggestion.


And yes BTs_ do what Fah said here, no need to re-live things that have been worked out. Bucc has assured me both sides have things to work on to prevent something like that happening again..

Fusion, I'm ok.  I like your and FahQ2's posts.  

I stand behind all the points I posted, except for bringing up BTs.  This is a matter of an individual poster, not a clan.

I still don't agree that there should be any term limits.  Since only people behind the scenes can really tell, I think the decisions should be left to them.

PS, I will not be one of the Admins next season, for those that didn't know that yet.

GhostSniper, i'm sure you posted this after the recent dispute, but saying that the admins should be replaced after a while is not a good idea. New admins tend to not do as good of a job (most of the time) because they just don't have the experience of the other ones. Now don't get me wrong i'm not saying i like all the admins, but i like 90 percent of them. They get the job done and that is all that matters.The subject of picking people they like to support is somthing that is going on, and it will be like that it's just the way it is. That is why there has to be a vote so that one just can't say "hey i like him i think they are going to get 300 points form saying another clan didnt show up" even though it's lie.                    
                                                                Maniac.

I think that less clan admins and more less-biased admins (not in clans) would be a good idea. This is only however my suggestion, and I'd like to stay out of this further, please don't flame me. ;)

I don't see how favoritism had anything to do with VooDoo's decision, because the fact is that the decision made was not "In Favor" of either clan. It was a compromise/decision that was to be carried out, and could have turned out in either clan's favor. Now, I understand that you guys want that topic to die, so that's all I will say. I just wanted you to see that Voodoo's decision couldn't have been biased for MP5, because his decision (as well as the majority of the admins) was not even the decision that MP5 wanted.

Okay, sorry I brought it up.  Really wasn't my intention to flame anyone.  Just thought I'd bring up an ideal I was having for the BL.  I actually thought of this before the recent stuff happened, but I used that just as an example.

I do like Fusion's ideal of voting to renew admins tenure every 2 or 3 seasons....that sounds pretty fair.  And that is a little more along the lines of where I wanted to go with this thread.

-GhostSniper Out.

Thank you GhostSniper for clearing up your point. I think it is a good one. Yes, Bucc you are right only Admins can see behind the scenes, but why should everyone from now on excluded from being an admin, especially if we dont like the was an admin expresses his authority ( not directed at anyone just a point). I do think the people in the league should have a say so, just like we elect our government. Just a thought/opinion.

Well, this depends Fusion.  First of all, I'm not in favor of excluding anyone, term limits exclude, not me.

Second, it all depends on how you want the Admins selected in the first place.  See, a few months back, people were pushing to have representation from all clans equally (within reason, like new clans would have to wait till next seasons etc).  There was a lot of talk about that.  Now, that's pretty much where we are right now, or at least that's the idea.  With people moving about and clans coming and going, it will never be 100%.

Well, if this is the way you want it (and not just you Fusion) than why should you, a member of another clan, tell my clan who can represent them?  And vice versa.  

Now, if the Admins got together and said that Admin for clan X was abusing their position, or not doing their share, and ask Clan X to submit a new Admin, I see that as being the only acceptable way for other clans to be involved in this decision.

Third, the people at large, that do not have access to what happens behind the scenes can't make an informed decision.  It's not like politics, where things are a matter of public record.  You can't tell me for sure who voted which way on what decision, or was abusing some of their responsibilities, not without looking into the Admin section.  Without that ability, some people will just jump on the band wagon and go after the Admin that is posting a decision, even if that Admin voted the other way.  

Now, that's the system that was pushed for.  That's the system that is more or less in place.  

But that doesn't mean that there isn't recourse if you think an Admin is abusing their powers.  We have guidelines as Admins, that we are supposed to follow.  Those that can't follow them, as I have said, should be dealt with by the Admins as a group.  

To give a couple lose examples here, and Fusion, since I know the air is clear between us, I'll just use myself as an example.  That way nobody gets bent out of shape:

Let's say that BTs and MP have a dispute in a CB.  There isn't much I can do to actually abuse my Admin position.  I could delete posts in the forums, but that would be noticed quickly and hurt my case, not help it.  I could ask some of the other Admins to do me a favor, and see things my way, but, does that have anything to do with me being an Admin?  Couldn't you do the same thing?  Especially the Admin from your clan?  See, there's nothing I can do.  I'm not allowed to vote, and if I go against the guidelines and start preaching my case in private, not public, I will only be hurting myself.  

Ok, next case.  Let's say that BTs has a CB with SiX (they don't CB, so I'm not worried about pissing them off by using them as an example).  There's a problem.  Now let's say that Gemi comes to me and lays on the old "come on buddy, you hate Fusion's guts, just rule in our favor, you'll be better off on the ladder anyway".  What happens?  And how would you ever know for sure?  There is only one thing that can help prevent that (well, besides scrapping the whole system and making it like the Supreme Court, appointed for life, and no conflicts of interest) and that is to have members from all the clans voting.  If I were to do something low down and dirty like vote for a buddy just because I didn't like you, the only possible way you could tell is if I wasn't posting my opinions in the Admin section at all, or if they just made no sense.

Well, I may not agree with some of the opinions of my fellow Admins all the time, but I can't say that any of them has given me reason to suspect they are doing something underhanded.  And if one were, that's one out of the many that need to vote.  

Hell, if anyone really thinks some Admins would sink to this, than it goes both ways.  For every Admin that votes on one side of an issue to help out a buddy, you would have an Admin doing the same thing in the other direction, wouldn't you?

Those are the big things, and I just don't see how you can improve on the system without chucking it and just going back to letting Mauti run the league.

As for the little things.  Are there Admins that cross the line?  Yep.  Gotten pissed off about it myself too.  Admins have deleted posts they shouldn't have, without asking or leaving a reason.  They have flamed when they shouldn't have, and they have not been as active as they should have.  Problem is, do you know which ones they are?  Hell, would you even agree with me on who they were, if you had all the same info as I do?  I doubt it.  And that right there is the reason in my eyes that cleaning up the Admins, should in itself, be one of the jobs of an Admin.  

Crypt, that's more or less the system we used to have.

I for one agree that I liked it better.

I for one would just like to point out to everyone that it is still just a goddamn game.  There is nothing really to lose here but ego and reputation, and even that is disputable since hardly anyone here knows the other on a personal basis.

I mean, for as long as I remember people just go nuts as if there is really something at stake here in this league.  For the past few seasons I haven't really seen a decline in anything but fun and gaming.  I am 26 for christ sakes, I put in a hard days work and I like to kill computer people instead of killing my actual coworkers (i am still not sure which one would be more satisfying).  

*Damn and the rest are just trying to give us a place to do it in the most functional manner.  Let's all just sit back and relax and put things into idle for a while.  I am tired of just seeing so much effort put into things that are so futile when you step away from the computer and enter realism.  I mean, I wasted a bunch just trying to get through the last episode of disputes.  I am not saying that it was all for nil, but in the end, will anyone care.

Just put up the best fight you can with your buds and have a good time dammit.  Be constructive in argument knowing that we are all here just to have some fun.  If you want to take it to another level, maybe we should start putting some money on the line.  At least then there is something really to lose and we can enact some policies that make it all worth it.  Until then, have some fun.

Oh yeah, let's play for money!!!  I'm all for that!

Ok, I feel that I must say something about the term thing that has been brought to my attention from this post.  I dont see how changing the admins to be honest is gonna be any different for people out there.  In reality all it's gonna do is create more shit in the forums because now we have to train more people to become admins and whatnot.  Everyone might think that they can be an admin but in all honesty it's a lot harder then you think.  I feel for BFG sometimes because of the scenario's that he is faced with because he is an admin.  By being an admin you are basically the first one to get the blame for the issues at hand because of the voted decisions that have been made and you happened to be the one that posted it.  In all reality I would have to say that I am impressed with most of the admins.  Many times they have ruled in my favor and many times I got the ass end of the stick.  The simple fact is that in the end I must respect and understand why they came to their conclusion, and above all accept it even if I didnt agree with it.  We can all say that we would do better in their shoes but in the end I think that many of the choices made for admin are good ones.    

Ya know the sad part is when the admins were being selected many of you voted for these people to become admins, and now it's like you are denying that it ever happened.  Hmm, and if ya didnt vote as the saying goes, then dont bitch.  Either event let me put it this way.  BFG for example was picked over me because he is a much more understanding person then I am which I give him many props for.  I admit I could not do the job as well as he could, all I can do is offer my opinion and you basically take it for what it is.  In either event over 10 people voted for him if I recall and less then half were my own guys so what does that say?  Well, it says that you guys voted for him and therefore accepted what would become of the outcomes that he was involved with.  And since the others were mainly voted in as well, you guys all did your part to be the voice of the Battle League, and again if not, then dont bitch.  

Now there is an issue where you guys dont accept what they ruled on based off of what seemed to be using some old rules and new rules combined to make it an easier transition to finish an issue from last season.  They all voted and some most likely didnt vote for it.  In either event the ruling was made based off of the votes and it was laid down.  Now we are discussing this issue with replacing them.  OK, with who?  Who would be a better admin to where they are non-biased and fair?  You guys putting this post up?  Well, I can not agree with that.  Obviously there is a personal issue with MP5 Typhy here.  To be honest typhy gave up his rights to deal with this issue, and to be honest I seriously doubt he had any influence on the admins decisions any more then Lee Harvey would speaking for the other side since his clan was involved with that mess as well.  So to sum this whole slew of stuff up I just wrote, if we were to replace the admins, then who would be non-biased enough to take their place?  We each picked one guy out of every clan originally because this way each clan would have what is basically a spokesman for their team.  If we were to replace them, then the only way is to replace them with other members from the clans that also participated in this season.  And since all of these guys were picked off of either the oldest most well known clans or some of the newer better clans at the time, I dont see how replacing them with one person from the same clan to another person from the same clan would really make any difference.  Yes, in a sense all admins are biased towards their particular clan but that is why they cannot act as an admin when an issue directly involves their clan.  So I vote not to change the admins because in all honestly our clan and many others is represented by the best spokesman of those clans.  Therefore we would be going downwards in admin quality by putting replacements for them in.  

:MoD:Saberian (Clan Leader Methods of Destruction)

People like Hazard are perfect, although he hasn't been on as much recently, I think certain clanleaders should make up this Council thing I've seen somewhere, I wonder if that is in the future plans.

All hail FahQ2.  All hail FahQ2.

Thanks for getting it FahQ2.  This place is like a beer softball league, where everyone has forgotten that the whole point was an excuse to get together and drink on a week night, and now wants to argue every call with the Umps because winning is everything.

This is a game, and yes, all games should be played to win, it makes them more fun for everyone involved.  But when winning becomes more important that playing, that's where things go wrong.

When winning is more important, that's when you:
* Duck CB's because you are concerned over what place you are in the ladder
* Use tactics even you think are cheap
* Spend more time arguing about rules and lag than the CB takes
* Plenty of others, but most have quit reading at this point

As soon as you start manipulating pieces of the system, from who you play to camping, you've started to lose the purpose.  We are hear to play, to have fun, to blow off steam.  

All hail FahQ2.  

No offence towards hazard in any way, but i find this confusiing... You prefer to have admins make rulings who don't Play the game, or are perhaps not as aware as some problems as they have not experienced them in playing, or participating in the BL ??

well i want to thanks all the admins!! all!! to do the great job they do and keep the league as it is and make it avolve more and more

great job guys

could be wishful thinking:  It doesn't seem likely to me that we could find a set of non-clan unbiased mature admins with enough time to oversee games, decisions, and posting every two seasons.  
 
nothing wrong in my mind of having an assortment of active clan representatives participating in the council.  If you want to keep the field fresh but experienced... have restricted terms unlimited but with votes every few seasons.  Or have rotating two or three spots each season up for renewal and voted upon by the admins.  Clans submit a person for consideration whether he's in a clan or not.   Sitting admins decide wether this person is fitting for a council spot.

btw...
How many sitting admins are there right now?
How many spots are opening up?

I believe there are 13 sitting admins at this time, not counting Mauti.  I don't think he has said anything about opening new spots up.

I like the ideal of voting to renew admin memberships every 2 or 3 seasons.  I really think that would be the ideal balance I would like to see.  That way, if there is a problem with an admin, or a majority of the people in the Battle League see fit, they can just axe that person when they vote.  I think that would also tend to make the admins think about their actions a bit more.

Ok, I'll ask it again.

How can people that don't know all that's going on make an informed decision (vote) for who's doing a good job or not?

Think about their decisions and be sure to vote in favor of the clans who are active on the forum?

You got banned from the Battle League, GS, no one expects you to be happy about that. However, we do expect you to at least be smart about it. Whining because someone didn't rule in your favor is incredibly inmature.

Funny, you quoted something that had nothing to do with your argument.  I believe he is just expressing his view about changing admins around after a certain length of time.

I dunno, but maybe it says something else there in between the lines.  

Silly guy.  I believe you are trying to flame.

I'll take the job. I assume starting pay is $1500/season for decisions and postings and $16/game to sit in on a CB. (which I would consider a steal btw, considering how many hours the average admin puts in a season and $16/game is LESS than I make for umpiring)

Ssick, that was me about two weeks ago. I proposed the idea, as I'm the type to make unbiased comments even representing my clan, and I was newly clanless at the time. However, I was told that to be an admin I needed a clan, so I joined one.

Yeah, these guys arent getting paid shit sad to say, plus the only thing they usually get is a pain in the head from dealing with constant flame wars, camping issues, cheats of all sorts and whatnot.  to be honest I feel that the admins that run the Battle League forum dont get enough respect as it is.  They all make many hard decisions knowing that people are going to be biased about them no matter what way they rule.  But the thing is that they in many ways dont get the credit that they deserve for having to deal with the issues on a constant basis.  It's nice to see that some people appreciate what the admins attempt to do besides me, or at least has the balls to say it here.  In any event this issue should just end.  All the dominent clans have reps within the admins that control BL.  We all have a voice in that sense

:MoD:Saberian

My post was meant as a joke, but there is a somewhat serious point I was indirectly making.

The way other sports leagues deal with the issues like the ones we've been facing of late is to simply hire unbiased 3rd party sources to run the league. I seriously doubt this is an option here, I know I'm certainly not ready to put up "league fees" any time soon. So until someone ponys up the cash (GS?) we're gonna have to learn to live with admins who participate in the league they're umpiring in.

This obviously leads to conflicts of interest but there is no other way. The admins are doing the best they can. They have a shitty job that doesn't even have the benefit of a paycheck. These volunteer admins are doing everyone a favor just by doing their jobs. The least people could do is treat them with the kindness and respect they deserve.

How much?

One Hundred... BILLION Dollars!



(http://www.maos.montereyhigh.com/gallery_content/sites/senior_portfolios/2001_2002/Katie%20Payne/images/dr%20evil.jpg)

No, really, how much?

Enough to hire some non-biased admins. I've already posted how much I'd like to be paid. Another individual would probably demand a different price.

Depends on how you'd like it organized too, if you want admins to sit in on each CB it's gonna cost a lot more. If you just want 5 guys to admin the thing like we have it now, i'd guess $2500-$7500 depending on salary. (at least 500 per person per season, not more than 1500 per person per season)

Well, I guess I could fork out the money for it.  Don't know how I would slip it passed my wife, though....lol.  But where would we find these non-biased admin?  I mean, they have to be able to get on GameRanger using a Mac, so that pretty much means we would have to get people that are already on GR to do it.

the other fact you two are missing is that by using admins who participate in the league, our admins are constantly up to snuff on what is going on. by hiring 3rd parties to come in and watch the game, they would have to worry about making sure they understood every nuance of the game, such as at what point squatting down behind a door that the enemy may be coming through stops being a tactical pause and becomes camping (ok, so that may be a bad example, but i hope you get the idea i'm trying to get across).  by using people who play the game, we avoid this issue completely.

 if you still insist on having totally non biased admins, may i suggest using GhR players to admin the RvS league and visa versa?

hmmm, bringing money into the picture....

my rent was just increased $100.  I'm not happy about it, but what can I do?  Nothing, except make sure I get my money's worth and call everyother day to fix everything.  Suddenly I have no room for faulty or even somewhat faulty things around the apartment.  Until the system is perfect 1000% there will be complaints and threats to not renew etc.  Before rent was raised I was more willing to help out and do repairs myself if I could.

The way it is now, the whole community should feel somewhat responsible for it's smooth operation whether they're an admin or not.  I think the system is fine now until there is a more stable operating set of rules and point system to administer. Maybe we're close already, but I'd like to see a few seasons first, before changing things drastically again.  

Money is not going to fix your problems at the moment.  Save your money and learn to be open minded and sympathetic to someone other than yourself. That's where we are as a BL at the moment.  We're not gonna get anywhere with "me! me!" attitudes.  It's about pitching in to build and maintain a ballpark of our own, and Mauti is generously providing us the space to do it.  

Thank you Mauti, and Elandron.

I do think having a variety of clan representatives is the best option if not better than third party admins.  Agreeing with Brain... knowing the ins and outs is very important.  And like I said earlier the rules are not solid enough yet to implement simple 3rd party overseers.

     Flies, I love you. Hahahaha.

     Has anyone considered making the admin section partially public? Specifically, I'm talking about opening up for public read-only access threads relating to issues that are at least one season old, and which are settled and finished. Bucc is right when he says that the community has insufficient information to make any sort of rational judgement on which admins are doing a good job. This would allow the community to see what admins are individually arguing in these cases, and would provide at least some of the information that we are lacking.

     I can easily imagine the admins not being pleased about this idea, though. I know I wouldn't be--my argumentative style would be very different when only a small group of peers (read: people in the same boat) would read it than it would be if I were posting publicly. Anyway, one more idea in the mix.

YES!  I like this ideal.

Make it so.

-GhostSniper Out.

WEll.. one reason that it is not open is b/c well.. Mauti does not want the rest of the BL peeps to see us arguing and flaming eachother like we do sometimes when we deal w/ some probs.

Actually the Admin section has been very chill as of late. All the Admin seem to have the same arguments but can still be civil with each other. As it should be.


This could be something considered, but am very weary of this. If we give permissions for read only to all members it just gives the opportunity for someone to read what we have posted in the admin area, then just flame the shit our of it in the public. I am however intrigued by this.

An interesting idea... although recently a lot of our discussions have not taken place on the admin forum - recently due to the complexity of the issue six of us spent several hours on Netfone in deep discussion... for a member of the community to just look at the forum would not give them a fair look at everything that was being discussed, they woul dhave to know what we said in pm's in GR, and what we talked about in discussion over NF....

i'm not a bl admin, so i know that i have NO reason to be posting my opinions on this at all, however i feel that this would be a generally BAD idea.  this would simply provide fuel for flames, as well as provide people who would want to bring about the demise of the BL a blueprint of any weaknesses in it's command structure, complete with big blatant callouts.  it would be far better for the admins to beat each other bloody in a private area (which is not far from what happens now) and come out of it showing a resolute front than to have those fights aired to the wind later on.

ii do however believe that some sort of disclosure is necessary.  i can see the admin section as a gg mod and thus make informed calls, but most people can't. perhaps a public opinion record for each issue  should be posted with each admins vote on a particular issue. and alternate options that were presented and favored by the descenters (kinda like what the supreme court does)  this would keep the worst of the fighting out of the public eye, but allow the public who voted yes/no/abstain for what, and who favored what option