*DAMN R6 Forum

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1114806,00.html

Sweet. ;)

Brilliant. Fantastic!  ;D Damn right. Its just another crazy sign though of the American "Siege" mentality.

owned? What are you talking about?

[sarcasm] oh damn... we have to be fingerprinted and photographed when we go to Brazil!!! Oh man... not.... PHOTOGRAPHS!!! NOOOOOOOO! We got um... owned because um... because uh... Brazil is um... taking um... photographs because uh... the U.S. is doing that to... um... Brazil. HEHEHEHEHE! OWNED.... [/sarcasm]

 ???

Good for Brazil, and for America too for taking precautions.  Is it really that big of a deal to have your photograph and fingerprints taken when entering a foreign country?

exactly what i was thinking snipe. i think someone needs to have the definition of owned refreshed in their memory

sound a little offensive.

Precautions? Precautions against what exactly? How many other countries demanded this before America started? Why exactly do you think america feels it needs to do this? And this would actualy be effective in stopping terrorists? i doubt it...

Or perhaps the "are you a terrorist" Questionare that you have to fill in is stopping terrorists? oh yes i can just imagine the potential bomber stopping to fill in the questionare and getting to that question. "Oh dear well i can't lie on this so i better put yes im planning on going and blowing up a high rise"... oh come on.

Perhaps if America made some alterations to its views and forign policy regarding the rest of the world then it wouldn't find its self being such a target in the first place.

do onto to others as you would have them do onto you..

it's pretty simple BFG it's called prevention. it only takes a couple minutes to get a digital pic and prints taken. how do you feel about all those cameras on londons streets watching your every move? it's the same thing, some may consider it a bit intrusive, others will look at the statistics and be happy with the extra measures. isn't it true that crime rates have signifigantly dropped in areas with the cameras? of course taking pics and prints won't catch any terrorists, but what it will do is prevent them from using our airports again. personally if all the countries in the world adopted this policy it wouldnt bother me at all. it's about saving lives man....mine and yours.

Ok, so lets take a theoretical look at this. My name is Ali and i live in south spain. I am a islamic fundamentalist and i wish to travel to america to blow myself up in the most destructive possible way... I have been a law abiding spannish citizen all my life.. i have no criminal record etc...

So i get on my plane to america. I have my photo taken and my fingerprint done.. fine. I get to america, buy my guns/explosives etc, strap them around my body and walk into office building....

Im not to bothered about the photo or fingerprints.. im dead anyway so it dosn't matter - but i have suceeded in doing what i aimed to do.

Ok, maybe this sytem would work if the following happend: I came into america, went on a killing spree and left lots of finger prints around etc.. then somehow excaped fromt he country... 2 months later i think i'll come back and do it again! but lo and behold when i fly in im stopped as my fingerprints/photo match...

So who exactly would be that stupid? I do not understand how it will prevent anything...

Yes camera's in London have helped drastically with some crimes. very good cameras were installed in some of the busiest shopping streets in london where pick pockets and bag snatchers were opportating... With radio contact to a mobile sqad on the ground the camera opporators could spot criminals - be recording the footage and navigate the squad to the location of the crime...  Job done.

But if america is doing this in an attemp to prevent another september 11th... then it might be worth considering your dealing with men and women who will die for their believes (or some of them did) and not kids who are making cash from petty crime.

(ps my name is not Ali and i do not live in spain... Nothing against spain i just thought of somewhere that dosn't fit in with Bush's list of the "Axis of Evil" which is a f*cking joke)

BFG hit the nail on the head. Let's also remember this isn't a one time thng, you get your fingure prints taken then you get a pic taken on the way in, and then on the way out. This also includes countries the US are close to. I don't know about you but this lowered my drive to go into the US for a vacation. Whoever comes up with these "prevention" methods must have dropped out in Grade 2. You Americans just keep blowing billions upon billions of dollars on shit.

P.S. I wasn't aware the system was in 100% effect, I thought it was still gonna be a few months before everyone entering from an country would have to comply with this disrespectful act.

Kami, BFG, you guys are really pathetic sometimes.  And you wonder why I get pissed about the "American Bashing" that goes on.  Assholes.

BTW, let me tell you a little story about my last trip to Sao Palo, and the "precautions".

First, we had to smuggle in the software disguised as music CD's, because of some "restrictions" they have on importing software.  This was company software for our own computers in Sao Palo, mind you.  All we were trying to do is save time and not FTP them over.  And this was fucking 8 years ago.

Next let me tell you about the guards around the plant, which had these nice shinny sub-machine guns.  We were told they were needed because nice US businessmen like ourselves were kidnapped on a regular basis down there.  We were also told not to venture off campus, especially the blond women, as they would shave their heads for the hair to make wigs, while they were kidnapped.  And this isn't just a story to frighten  us, they gave us real examples (the ransom was usually around $500 USD, not enough to make a big deal out of and risk our lives).

Why don't you boys start going through customs in a few more countries before your weakass attempts at bagging on the USA.  Assholes.

so what then exactly would you two international security experts do to secure your countries after a major terrorist attack?

bucc is right once again, i've been to argentina twice in the last two years and the areas economic woes, not america being at war is the greatest threat to foriegners in south america. hell anybody that comes from a civilized and wealthy country runs the risk of being kidnapped in any south american country. it's been that way for decades. it was recommended to my wife (by the argentinian government) that we hire security. just because her husband is a gringo and they think i may have money or somebody will pay money for me. boy would they be in for a suprise! anyway the security i saw at the airport makes americas security look relaxed.
also, lets not forget that america is a country at war still. if the government wanted to completly shut down the borders and international visitors it has every right to do so. i can imagine the whining we'd hear if that happened. but i also get the feeling that america is the only country that isn't allowed to do such things. i doubt russia, china, most of the middle east, and most south american countries would have any problem doing such a thing. and would it matter to you? nope, only if amreica does it.

The current list of people with connections to terrorist organizations is rather extensive so checking people against it is not a waste of time.  Obviously not every terrorist in the world is on it but if we can keep the known ones out the it's a success.  

And from what I know its only in Atlanta and I think Dulles right now but it's supposed to go into all the major international airports within a few months.

It's at the major hubs, and it's also at Detroit Metro, which shouldn't surprise anyone, since there are so many people from the middle east here.

Firstly, my view does not make me pathetic. wtf happend to freedom of speetch or is this the normal "i don't agree with your view so i will just insult you?"

Ok so what if countrys in south america had/has daft laws on software? im sorry i do not see the relevance. Its like we have laws against inporting food... or like america dosn't allow the inport of cuban cigars or pianos!

Yes exactly. When you go into a poor country and you obviously have a lot of money (compaired with some of the inhabitants) you are going to be a target. My aunt and cousen traveled to egypt recently.. they had an armed guard most of the time they traveled (when i say armed we are talking both police and milartry). In some countries westerners are not partically popular... are you surprised given some parts of recent history?

When and if (which i doubt) i hear about other countries who start doing this (other than in retaliation to the the us) i'll complain about them as well. The more and more countries try to isolate themselves and alianate themselves from the rest of the world the more, i believe, things will deteriate. the siege mentality of "defending yourself" from outsiders - the more the ideology of "them and us" will be inplanted into people. At a time when the world in general should be trying to heal old wounds and prevent this massive divide between east and west the better. But treating forigners to these types of 'security checks' does not seem to me to be a good way of going about it.

And becasue i think that i must be an asshole. thanks for the input bucc

for a while after 9/11 ppl were randomly searched and questioned at airports all over the country. al gore is the most known case (think it happened to him twice after he grew the beard). but i can tell ya about 2 cases that i know of directly.
a chef i work with flew from miami to nyc for the holidays last year. the chef is a 250lbs. jewish woman born and raised in nyc. she was strip searched and questioned for 6 hours by the fbi and wasn't allowed to leave the interrogation room to take a piss even.
the next case is my wifes aunt. she was on vacation in mexico from argentina with her two daughters, 8 and 11 years old. her flight going back to argentina had a layover in miami, where she and the children were searched and questioned for 9 hours. not allowed to leave the room in this case also (not even to pee). all those with children must know how hard this must have been.
in both cases the people were clearly not even close to resembling terrorists. the system was clearly flawed. it's taken a long time (too long in my opinion), but the system is being refined. and these sort of useless and very disturbing searches should be a thing of the past with the new print and pic system in place. so smile for the camera put your hand down on the scanner and thank the security ppl for not holding you all day in a 12X12 room.

You had your freedom of speech asshole, you used it to bash America.  I used mine to point out that you were an asshole for it.  SO FUCK OFF WITH THAT STUPID ARGUMENT, IT IS NOTHING BUT BULLSHIT.  Assholes don't even know what freedom of speech means it seems, because it also gives me the right to call you an asshole for being one, asshole.

Don't try to play that card with me, you obviously don't know how to do it.

Oh, and it's your constant American Bashing that makes you pathetic in my eyes, I am welcome to my opinion too, asshole.


You don't see the difference, so I guess there is none, eh?  Let's look at your example of cuban cigars, hmm, why are those illegal, oh, I know, it's because there is a full trade embargo with that country.  Wow.  Is there a full trade embargo with Brazil.  Nope.

Let's look more closely at it, shall we.  I don't know if you've ever been to America (but the way you talk about it, I doubt it), but if you had, was your software searched.  Did they turn on your laptop and go through the applications you had on it?  Pull out your CD's and put them in their computers?  Well, it's happened to me more than once going into other countries.

And that, sir, is in reply to your "precautions?" statement.  They couldn't stop us from FTP'ing in that same software, it's on Ford computers in a Ford facility on a Ford network.  But they are taking their "precautions" too.  And it's not like this is a recent thing.  

Hey, I had precautions taken against me a Gatwick, where some nice military personal pointed some nice machine guns at me while I was searched once.  They didn't like my setting off of the metal detectors no matter how many times I told them about the pins in my shoulder.  I didn't bitch about those precautions, because the IRA was still pretty active at that time.  Do you think that they were wrong?  They shouldn't have been carrying those big ass guns and pointing them at an innocent tourist?  

Or, we could talk about saying the wrong thing to a Canadian Boarder Patrolman, and being stopped at the boarder for 16 hours once (the driver was being "questioned" and we didn't want to leave him).  All this before the Trade Towers came down.

So don't fucking get on a high horse about "precautions".  I'm closer to a libertarian than you are (since I've been accused of it often enough), you just seem to like bashing on the USA.  Talk about your own government and it's fucked up issues for a change.


I'm not talking recent, I've been traveling since the early 80's.  South America is getting better in these times if anything.

Listen,
i don't know why any of us americans need to go to brazil. They import the cocaine to america, thats whats so great about a global market and the underworld drug trade.

Perhaps if there was a radical american sect lead by someone like bucc to terrorize our "allies." people would think differently about border checks.

W-O-W! Kami that in no way owns America. It just makes it so they are fingerprinted and getting on a plane takes 10 minutes longer. Who the fuck wants to go to Brazil anyway?

Yeah, seriously guys, I don't see how this means anything and it especially doesn't mean the United States has been owned in any way, shape or form.

As orwellian as it seems, taking people's pictures at airports is an effective security tool when you run those photos through a database to match known/suspected terrorists. It's just like what we do to track gang activity in large cities. You will never get them all on record, but hopefully you'll find the kingpins and be able to follow their movements, like an early warning radar. Some information is better than none.

If you want to start talking about crazy security procedures you should talk about the UK if anything. It has long been known that the UK has the most advanced and extensive people-tracking system in use in the world today. Cameras everywhere, national ID systems, gotta get a license to own a damn tv (this is strictly enforced as well). Now that's a surveilance society. In fact, don't the police in London use cameras to track who drives in and out of downtown London by scanning everybody's license plates? Now THAT is owned.

of course they got owned...if you mean they own their country. doesnt count unless someone else is owning them :-). and yeah, airport security is very tight in uk. i got off a jewish airline (no affiliation) in stansted and was greeted by two heavily suited security gaurds with automatic weapons. cant trust them jews these days.

NADS, I suppose it was an Israeli airline than?  And if so that means there was at least one armed man on board with Israeli security.  I wonder if thats why Israeli airlines are safest in the world?  Something to ponder.

yes, el al is considered the safest airline in the world. or at least it was a few years ago last i checked. i wasn't serious with the not trusting jews...

Whoa Whoa Whoa!!!

Come on... owned???  Please, Kami, that must be your way of joking.  I read the article and it seems that the government of Brazil is simply doing this as a means of getting back at the U.S. and has no intention of curbing terrorism or finding terrorists.  Brazil is possibly one of the most backward civilized nations on the planet today, and this is simply another measure that supports such an idea.  But for you to say that America is owned from that article further proves that you seriously have no clue of what's going on.  I'm somewhat disappointed that BFG would agree with that article in any such manner since he is at a level much higher than that of Kami, but I guess this is basically becoming more of an us versus them thread, and forum.  Shall I go on?


These precautions are being taken against people illegally entering the country, and do so with malicious intent.  How many countries even require an ID to travel on its planes?  The answer to that is not all of them require such a simple means of security.  So, basically what you are saying, BFG, is that since no one else requires such a measure, the United States should fear retaliation because they are the first country to implement such a plan?  This is incredibly foolish of you to have such a thought.  And yes, it has been effective against stopping known terrorists from entering U.S. borders.  Half of the men (if I should even cell them that) from 9/11 were already on suspected watch lists as known terrorists.  Some of them used false identification to board those planes.  I can guarantee you the measure that the United States has taken, in requiring photographs and fingerprinting, has at least deterred some terrorists, or others who intend to harm the United States.


That quote right there makes you an asshole.  There's no denying that.  That was even more inconsiderate and foolish than anything Rapid has even said.  Come on BFG, I know you're better than that to make such a comment.  I hardly believe that the United States' view and foreign policies have purposely made it a target from terrorists.  There?s far more into something like that than you first think or realize.


Do you have something to hide?  Or do you just dislike the fact that somebody will know where you went?  I do believe countries such as England have taken more precautions before these terror threats by using very advanced face recognition software and tracking systems.  I'm not positive about this, but I believe Israel uses a face recognition system for non-Israeli citizens.


Whoever came up with this stuff got it from the Brits.  The United States is usually the first on the ball with technological advances and of the like, but I believe England beat the U.S. on this issue.


It's because we have billions of dollars.  Every society wastes something.  The United States chooses to waste money, or is it really a waste?  I don't think it's a waste, and I'm the one paying for it (a bit at a time).


First off, it's not 100%.  It's only located at the major international hubs, and not all of them use this measure all the time due to budget constraints and staffing.  

As for being a disrespectful act, I just don't see how it is disrespectful.  If I'm a person who has absolutely nothing to hide, what do I really care if someone has my picture and fingerprints?  Being a teacher, the State of Florida has my fingerprints on record for a variety of reasons.  They wanted to make sure I wasn't some child molester or a convicted criminal, and this measure was taken to ensure the safety of children in the State of Florida.  If I was a parent, I would feel safer knowing that all of the teachers that my child saw in a given day had been checked for criminal backgrounds and had been cleared to be around children in a setting such as a school.  This measure of fingerprinting/photographing foreigners is simply another way of ensuring the safety of the United States.  Yes, it will not prevent all who wish to harm the country, but it will help to deter, and to keep track of known criminals.  When I flew to Ireland a few years ago (before 9/11), I received an anal raping (exaggeration) at customs because I had a trumpet and a metronome.  The ordered me (the guys with the automatic guns) to take apart the trumpet for inspection and then to take apart the metronome.  For those of you who do not know what a metronome is, it is a device that can tell you the number of beats per minutes (bpm) by sounding an electronic beep.  Now, this seems simple to me, but the guys with the guns didn't like the fact that I had something that "beeped" repeatedly.  It is simply a device used by all musicians, more or less, but it scared the hell out of airport security.

Basically, the United States has been somewhat lax about airport security.  Hell, the U.S. had thousands of illegal immigrants working at airports until 9/11.  The United States is simply trying to protect its people.  I don't see the problem, or the disrespectfulness, in that.

.::|N| Noto

Some of you guys need to stop being such international noobs.  Everyone is sensitive about their own country, so why post an article, and a subject, that you know will lead to flaming?  Try traveling around the world for a bit and then compare everyone's "foreign policies".  I'll be the first one to say that the United States has a piss poor foreign policy when it comes to most things, but keep in mind that many countries are right along side of them, if not worse.  Europe isn't exactly the most righteous place in the world either.

If you knew what you were talking about, I might consider your point of view...but since you do not know what you are talking about, I take what you say with nothing more than a grain of salt. This program EXCLUDES most allied nations including your beloved Canada, Japan, and Western Europe. Maybe you should educate yourself on a topic before you go spouting off some bullshit.

Anywho, back on topic. The only thing I am going to add along with everything else that has been said by rational people is that this program is a deterrent, another layer of security. I highly doubt that this program will catch anyone, but it sure as hell will make a potential terrorist work much harder to get into this country than he/she would have worked before.

And lastly...Buccaneer, no matter how many times you try to educate certain people on freedom of speech (or any other freedoms we have here in America), they will simply not understand it because either A) They are not afforded the same freedoms and thus do not understand them, or B) Completely ignorant. However, I commend you on keeping up with your nearly daily arguments with these people...I sure as hell wouldn't have the tolerance to write just about the same thing in different forms that much.

Agreed.  And I don't believe they really intended to "catch" people at the airports.  Everyone on the planet knows that security is much higher, which is why the United States believes that any further attacks using planes would be from flights originating in other countries.  I'm still curious to know whatever happened to that guy who never showed up for the Air France flight right before Christmas.  Evidently, after they were holding the flight, this one guy from Afghanistan never showed up.  He's probably innocent and was picked out with guilt by association, but i guess you can't never be too sure.

.::|N| Noto

I was gonna right a great big responce but there is no point. Sounds like you didn't bother to read half of what i wrote before so maybe i can spell it out again.

My comments in NO way were 'bashing' america in general. Like i said before if other countries were to start this same introduction of security messures i would complain, no more and no less than i have becasue america have. I WOULD COMPLAIN IF THE UK DID IT. Bucc perhaps you can understand i do not regard the UK to be perfect. Shit if i were to write a list about everything wrong with this country i would be here for the rest of my life. But because i have issues with the way your country behaves suddenly im "America bashing"

No its true i have not been able to travel to the US. I have several close friends from the us though and many who have traveled in out of and through the country.

So i say somthing about the US you don't like or agree with. I comment and you respond with how pathetic we are.. great. I point out im entitled to my own opinion. You call me a asshole and say that its your right to call me an asshole. Yes fine go ahead. If thats all your capable of doing then just go around treating people like they are thick as shit becasue they don't agree eye to eye on some issues with you.


Yes we have had major alerts and ONE occasion where the army was called into a major london Airport. This was an one of event (and i hope it stays that way).

Ok when i said that if perhaps the way america interacted witht the rest of the world things might be different what im trying to say is why? WHY IS america a target? what has caused so many people be prepared to Commit suiside, their goal to cause as much harm and suffering to the US and its population.

Perhaps the way the US has treated Palastine and Israel might be a facter. Palastinians do not regard Americans with the highest of praise. And do you wonder why? Bush was oh so happy to go to war to 'support the UN' becasue Iraq had broken UN resolutions. But when Israel is mentioned the US does nothing, votes are vetoed and nothing changes despite Israels continued breach of over 110 UN resolutions.

What then has caused the US to become such a target? Yes its not the only place, unfortunatly the UK seems to be treated in a similar way. IM not "bashing America" solely. Im mearly commenting when i see things that i do not agree with. Just as i would should post articles etc about British behaviour. I think we are far from perfect, like so many other countries. Labling me a "American basher" is just simplistic.

Don't make me laugh. Of course everyone is entitled to their own oppinion. Talk shit, carry guns and shoot each other its fine. Im just disspapointed if all they are able to do with that opinion is call people stupid insults.

Voices of reason are welcome for actually taking the time with such drivel.

Good day.

Thanks for the vaild input ther spider. very intellegent.

Last Report I saw said that this system was going to be for ever country, including Canada and such. The "full" system was aiming to be in affect by 2005. I don't know if that report was wrong but ok, calm down Assassin, that statement didn't come off very well....

And Noto, first off, good job in turning every quote you quoted into a attack in some way or another. Perhaps you don't find it disrespectful, but you're not 70% of the Canada that does.  Why don't yo just calm down too. If people were acually bashing America than you have reason to start personal attacks, but until then try to keep a lid on things. There's more than one viewpoint in the world.

Um, Mysterio?  Maybe I missed something here, but isn't the titled of this thread "America = owned"?  In my eyes, I see that as bashing, but the posts that followed only confirmed that.  I know that there is more than one viewpoint in the world, and as an American, I am more than just in having my opinion when it comes to American affairs.  And about that 70% of Canada, I don't believe you are 70% either.  So shut your pie hole about that, seriously.

.::|N| Noto

hello everyone,

I am just writing in here because, well, in reality I am not sure except that it seems that everyone is pissed about the other's opinion.  

first off I would like to say that I thought everyone had an interesting view on the topic of security.  I wish I could have seen that article that was posted earlier but for some reason it wasnt there anymore.  

Next I would like to address Bucc's view on America.  I dont know if I would call u a Liberal heh, in reality the views that you usually state are mainly one of a Republican, but hey, nothing wrong with that, just some different views that I share from yours.

As for BFG, well, in some ways I agree that we as Americans do things on our own.  That is true in many aspects.  Mainly because in the past it has worked to our benefit to have these things kept from other Nations, and most likely will continue to do so.  Actually the UK being one of our closest allies knows much about how and what the US is doing, the UK government just dosent talk much about it to their people.  That seems to be the beautiful thing about Europe, so many countries living so close to each other, it is easy for a more Liberal approach to happen because it is easy for in essense the countries to traitor the others dirty laundry out in public, thus allowing most of Europe to be aware of what it going on, thus as well having a false sense of Liberalism.  Did I say that right?  In any event that is one reason why the US has kept it's mouth shut and walled itself in from the rest of the UN.  

I have served in the US ARMY and believe that I have a decent view of what is going on with the US as in politics.  Politics in many ways is a lot like religion because it seems that it can be swayed to believe what any person wants it to believe by twisting a statement here or changing a sentence there to suit their personal beliefs.  

BFG is correct that Bush has done some odd things in his career as president and I for one am no lover of Bush.  I am hoping that we will get a different president next election, but most likely we will be swayed into another long, sad, term with Bush that will bring up our hopes with Tax refund money but smash our hopes with serious loss of jobs and layoffs nationwide.  Notice the unemployment issue started the same month Bush was brought into office.  That is why I am hoping for another Democrat into office, hoping that it will allow our government to focus on our inner country issues over the issues with foreign lands whereas Republicans always seem to concentrate most of their efforts in hopes to allow larger and bigger businesses to prosper over the smaller companies in the wake of their particular dealings with outside country issues.  It seems that Euro countries never really talk much about Democrats in office but love to focus on Republicans.  Hmm, wondoer why that is.  

In the end I dont believe that just because we are stuck with the people we have in office  dosent mean that we love the guy.  I have no love for Bush but I do love what our country stood for:  The freedom from and of Religion, speech, thought, and Liberty.  All of those things I would defend once again, and all those things I would die for to give them to my son and his generation for their future.

As for the Cuban Cigar.  I thought the main reason that Cuban Cigars wearnt allowed in the US cause they are mixed with Cocaine.  Srry if I sound ignorant in that last statement about the Cigar but I seriously thought that was the main reason.  Cause it was banned because of the issue of it having a Narcotic within the mixture of the tabacco.

As for Israel, well, we all know that they are major supporters of the US.  Plus over 50 percent of German parts, OEM, or aftermarket come from there because of their intense relationship with Bosch.  the issue with Israel is one that is very sad in sense, and me being Jewish as well might make me biased about their particualr situation.  This war between Muslim and Jew has been going on for that area in the world since the beginning of the Muslim religion when the head leader in the Zoroasteran faith (The original Diest religion) overthrew the leader to start the new religion of Islam.  The Jews at that time occupied that particular area.  Many times the Muslims have tried to overtake that from the Jews and in the end succeeded.  The Jews were then given it back.  So ya see, this war goes way beyond what we see today.  It starts from the beginning.  That is why us, as outsiders cannot possibly understand the magnitude of the reasons for why neither side will give up the battle.  I am trying not to be biased about the Israeli / Palestinian conflict for I have a close personal friend of mine in Buffalo who is a Palastinian and since I am a Jew and many of my relatives are Israeli it is very probable to create certain biases I suppose.  But because of my good buddy in Buffalo it makes me wish that they could not just share the land in peace.   Both sides have created atrocities that is for sure.  But in the end this is a war that we as outsiders were not meant to be involved politically with.  yes, we do have trade with Israel as much of Europe has trade with Palestine.  so instead of worrying who has created more atrocities to the other we should just pray for the innocent ones that were lost to the holy wars that have been going on since the beginning from both sides.  Israel dosent announce their retalliations or whatnot as holy wars, but since this conflict has been going on in essense for many centuries, we now as outsiders trying to understand the methods of the madness should not get involved unless we are trying to help further peace, not bitch or preach for what was done during the war.  The same reason why we as Americans did not allow ourselves to be seriously involved with the IRA and the UK issues is why we should not be involved politically with this one with Israel.  We are supporters of Israel as we were with the UK during their issues with Northen Ireland, as Israel and the UK has always backed up the US without hesitation.  So we are close, but their personal war can only be started and finished by them and them alone.

BFG is my good friend and so is Falkri from palestine, and I have much respect for Bucc's beliefs about our country.  I might not agree with everyone or anyone here politically but will always respect their freedom of speech, and not belittle them for believing what they believe.  Shit, I just think I turned Liberal damnit!  As long as I dont go hippie I think I am ok. Far out!  Shit, I'm fucked lol!

As for Nads Bronto, that was a joke right?  or are you actually an anti-Semitist?

As result of the security,  both US and the UK are trying to imitate the flawless israeli security for Airliners because of Israeli's experience with terrorists and suicide bombers.  So even in jest I think that is a little insulting to fellow humans, weather  they be Jews or any other nationality.  It's thinking like that that creates the hatred for other races and religions that are still experienced today.


:MoD:Saberian

Link no longer works. just tellin yah

This isn't as owned as the US not letting other "allies" help in the reconstruction of iraq.
Wait sorry, pWn3D!@#$(*!!!!!!@#!

Cubans are illegal because they are cuban. And there is a huge stigma surrounding them because they are good and rare. Last one i had took 2 hours to smoke and i felt crazy afterwards. As for cubans being the best, thats not as true anymore since the majority of the industry has moved to other countries (Dominican republic for one) so they can sell to us americans.

The link itself is not complete, but the text of the link is perfectly fine.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1114806,00.html

You might need to copy and paste the entire link, but keep in mind that the link starts with http and ends with html.  The link does work though.  If you are too lazy to copy and paste and don't have enough brain power to figure it out, then...


TRY THIS INSTEAD LAZY FUCKERS (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1114806,00.html).

;)

.::|N| Noto

:MoD:Saberian says...

"Notice the unemployment issue started the same month Bush was brought into office.?"

If this is the case, then you would have a hard time attributing the unemployment problems to President Bush - a president who just took office isn't going to have much effect for some period of time.

I would suggest that the unemployment issues that appear in early 2001 are a result of the recession that started in 1999-2000, led by the tech sector (which I watched up-close and personal).  As unemployment claims are typically a lagging indicator, they wouldn't be seen until later in the recession.

I have zero knowledge of Cuban cigars and will refrain from comment.

With regards to El Al security - if memory serves, they have a very stringent passenger security check and they can also place armed security officers on every flight - something they can do because they fly a smaller schedule than most major US carriers.  Delta, the 2nd largest US carrier, runs 3,000+ flights per day - a pair of officers on each and you've got a regimental combat team in the unfriendly skies.

Yep, don't know why I'd see the second post like this in a thread titled "america = owned" as America bashing.  No reason at all, eh?



Fuck you if you can't see how many of us would take that as bashing asshole.


Perhaps because since the first post I saw you make, you've been bashing on America, and not on the UK.  Maybe that's what has given me this impression.  Think that could be it??


You are an asshole not because you don't agree with me, but because of your bullshit bashing.  This country isn't for everyone, either is the UK, Denmark, Austria, Oz, or any other country you can name.  However, you sure seem to go out of your way to pick at and voice your opinions on what's wrong with a place you've never been to.  Oh, sorry, that must just be my "siege mentality" talking that you said I had, me being American.


So, the IRA was right?  The Basq Separatists were right?  Because they are stupid or crazy enough to suicide bomb makes them right?  Do you yet realize how stupid your statement was, or do I need to talk about using conclusions to prove your postulates being a logic trap?

Have you ever actually read any transcripts from Bin Ladin's speeches?  Heard what and why he hates the US?  Or do you just read the headlines and blame 99% of it on our backing of Israel (which is really funny coming from a Brit, one of the nations that backed Israel more than the USA has).


And tell me, oh wise one, where has the UK stood on those same issues?  France?  Come on, take a good guess if you don't already know.  This is just one of those fingers you shouldn't be pointing, if you know what I mean.


Simplistic, but accurate so far.  You see, you haven't bashed the UK, or other countries over these same things, have you?  You haven't brought up their short-comings, have you?  No, you just encourage it when someone does it to the USA, you know, us Americans with our "siege mentality", not that it's bashing or anything.

BTW, sorry you don't like insults, but neither do I, and I found your first post in this, along with Kami's very fucking insulting.  Doesn't matter if you don't think it was, or claim it wasn't meant to be, it was fucking insulting to me.  So I insult back.


There, you do it again.  Another blatant bash there.  Carry guns and shoot each other.  You've commented on shit like that before.  But when I've pointed out that violent crime went up in the UK and Canada after they banned guns, you had nothing to say about it, hmmm.  

Maybe if you weren't such a stupid asshole, I could do more than insult you.  But since you continue to bash America, in a post that claims you don't, I doubt it.

Sab, Sab, Sab,

Libertarian, not Liberal.  There's a difference.

And I'm a moderate (aka centrist), not a Liberal or Conservative.

Call me a Republican and I may have to kick you in the ding-ding.  Same goes for Democrat.  Can't stand party politics.  Not one bit.  I'm not a Libertarian either, I've just been accused of it many times here because I do agree with many of their core values (just not enough to actually consider them a viable choice).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1114806,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1114806,00.html)

Learn your YaBB code people, sheesh.

Frankly there's a whole aspect of terrorism that Bush has forgotten about and the press has quietly buried. Domestic terrorism. That's American's blowing up Americans.

When do you think domestic terrorism is going to become an issue again? Soon. And what will happen, if we as good citizen's, haven't spoken up for foreigners and their right to not be finger printed like a common crimminal and have their personal information filed away? What will happen is, one day, when a white guy from Alabama blows up a nuclear plant, it will be you and me who will have to get finger printed. It will be you and me who's various rights to privacy, our liberities of speech and free movement revoked, and our personal information will be filed away in a Washington database.

The goal of the Bush administration is to control the country, then the world. Not administer it, control it. Remember when Bush joked how much easier it would be if he was dictator? Remember when he said he thought Americans had to many freedoms? Bush uses the notion that our national security is more important than our national liberty, set against the backdrop of perpetual fear, to control us. Security over liberty. Protection over freedom.

Benjamin Franklin put it best when he said, "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." The road we walk down when we say, "it's just a foreigner" is the one Christians and average Germans walked when they saw the Nazi's come for the Jews, for the communists, for the anyone who was not themselves; The thought that ff it's happening to someone else it doesn't affect me.

It does affect you because every time you don't speak up for someone's rights, every time you bow before oppression, every time you turn a blink eye to another civil rights abuse or dissapearance or corruption of the Constituatio you cheat freedom and betray liberty and wage war on yourself.

finish the below peom -

First they came for the Muslims,
and you did not speak out
because you were not a Muslim
Then they came for all foreigners...

"First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me."

Pastor Martin Niem?ller

Ok bucc, it was a stupid subject title and i shoulnd't have posted anything in it if id known people were going to freak out

When perhaps people start talking about The UK and these forums are not dominated my american topics then i might ahve the opportunity to voice my oppinions about how f*cked up this damn country is.

We could go back in history and i could mention how stupid the bloody Crusades were. How we had a horribly dangerouse mix of politics and religion... how (i believe) this mix is still present and a problem in so many countries.
At one point we were the most powerfull country in the world. We must have one of the bloddiest history's around. Our behaviour over many many hundreds of years has at times been horrific. I do not and would not deny that.
Yes your right we managed to screw the Middle east over big time. We created Israel after the second ww. Oh no now im 'bashing the uk'
To say we have supported them more than the US i find hard to agree with in recent times. We aren't selling the israelis Armour, bulldozers etc or vetoing any attempt which is made to bring israli to order.. However i couldn't believe it when i heard  that people in the Bush eadministration in the US have been putting pressure on sharon, I wait in hope for this to happen to its full potential, but its a great start


Here we go, you see i really don't know if you actually read what i posted. who the hell said they were right? You? I certainly didn't. The IRA is not right to kill innocent civilians becasuse a handfull of them don't like being part of the UK, Eta is not 'right', nor were the hijackers aboard the planes on september the 11th. No neither have i said its all down to the backing of israel...
These people DON'T have to be right, they aren't. Perhaps the IRA is a stupid exampe - its very clear what they want, and very obviouse they wont' get it as a very small and unpopular minority who resort to violence.  what i was trying to ask in general is why do these people do this? The IRA can be understood through history.  Why has this hatred for the west become so strong? America is seen my some as an icon of the western world, so what is it that the west has done to have resulted in this situation. Things are getting worse not better. like i have now said TWICE My issue with the news item is not a 'bashing' at america. Its me saying that i think this is not the right way to solve problems. If everyone increases security more and more, and more and more, communication between countries fails and we become more and more isolated. That i believe is a mistake where what the world needs more than anything is some sort of bridge between east west.

Binladan has used the Koran and religion. Complete bull shiting from it of course, i don't know how many of you know much of what the Koran says but the 'holy war' bull shit that he used  is not it. I am disguested at the though of people carrying out violence in "the name of allah". It is not in his name, it is not what the karan preaches. . People twist religion to fit their requirements.  
I won't talk about bush's language like "the crusade of good against evil" again"... other than to tsay that is a perfec example of creating a gap between east and west, and a dangerouse mix of religion and politics... I'd have thought everyone would hav elearnt that 'crusades' are not a good idea given our track record!


Don't start with the "oh wise one" bullshit please, i have never and never will claim it and having you say it like i was inplying it is just shit. yes i know what you mean, yes i think we were unbelievably STUPID to rush into iraq. Blair basically lied. He fucked things up so big its unbelievable. Our goverment basically fabricated the truth in an attempt to gain support for a war... Because blair wanted to be bush's bestest buddy... We went to war on the 'understanding' that we were going to 'disarm' saddam and remove these weapons of mass destruction he had. We are still waiting. I won't be voting in Blair again... Nor will i or can i defend what my country did. It is a great thing that Saddam has been captured... it will be far greater when Iraqi's with help can restore their country, export THEIR oil and not be tied by western pressure to do our bidding.
Franch and Germany did not want to rush into a war. They wanted to give the weapons inspectors the time to do the job that they had gone to do.. And becasue they did not support the war people like bush called them "cheese eating peace nazi's". Pathetic behviour like calling French Fries "freedom fries".

Hey guys, I think I'm the only Militant Right-Wing Extremest Conservative Rebublican on this forum.

And if you don't like it, I really don't care.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

Wow,
I find it repugnant when people dare to compare America today to Nazi Germany. Its not just stupid and uninformed to make those kindof comparisons, it also displays a monstrous lack of taste....
Equating the victims of nazi atrocities with non-US citizens who have to wait in line and get their picture and prints taken....hmm. Being inconvenienced by increased airport and border security isnt the same as ending up in a mass grave with your entire family, so dont draw such moronic paralells. By making those kind of comments, you not only make yourself look like a class A dipshit, you also disrespect the memory of those who were truely the victims of repression and persecution.

When they came for the terrorist
I didnt speak out because i wasnt a terrorist,

You people need to get the knot out of your panties and start thinking. I find it odd that so many europeans talk about how much these shitbags hate americans, when in reality the entire western world is the target of islamic terrorists. I guess it's comforting to delude yourself into thinking that youre not a target....maybe if you people looked at the some of the terrorist attacks since 9/11 youd notice that germans, brits, australians, and french people arent too popular among terrorists either.

Bullshit.  You have every opportunity to do so.  You can start a topic any time you please.  Hell, you could easily pop in your views instead of talking about Bush on many of them.  But that would take more than a bashing mentality.


Not even close to your actual bashing of the USA.  Just the lack of insults sets it apart.


Two quick points here, and I supply links to UK sites if you don't happen to believe that these reports came from the UK.

First, I don't know if you are stupid or just ignorant (or just a lying sonofabitch) when you claim the UK isn't selling Israel armor.  Leg irons to tear gas to rocket launchers, according to your own press on November 5, 2003.  

Don't you love it when they know more about what America's government is doing than their own folks?

Second, in another article, it polled UK voters about if the USA was applying enough pressure on Israel to solve the issues.  And close to 40% said the USA wasn't doing enough.  Why the fuck would you poll on the USA, poll on if the UK is doing enough!  I love how people ask why the USA thinks it's the world police, but their own countries EXPECT us to be just that.

One more thing, I don't blame the UK for helping to create the state of Israel, but I do blame them for manipulating Israel into attacking Egypt.


It's not hard to understand either, just read some of the transcripts.

However, your tone sure implied that you think the USA could have done things to avoid it.  You flat out said something along the lines of 'perhaps if American changed the way it interacted with the world, things would be different.', and you said this in regards to the terrorist threat.  That's like me saying 'perhaps if the british weren't so pig headed in dealing with their occupation of Ireland, things would have been different.'  Both are utter bullshit.  Terrorists are terrorist, and there is no right about it.  Your statement pointed at the USA and it's actions as a REASON for the attacks.  And I'm saying reason and terrorism don't go together.


And like I have now said THREE TIMES (omg), yes, it was bashing.  Why? BECAUSE OF THE WAY YOU SAID IT ASSHOLE.


There's an example of the problem I have with your slant.  Bush, however wrong the asshole has been, isn't "creating a gap".  The gap is there, and was created long ago.  The gap has been made much wider by assholes like Bin Laden and his followers.  But no, it's always Bush's or America's fault, at least that is the way many of the assholes here write it!!


Actually, you didn't know what I meant at all.  I was still talking about the UK and France's actual stances on Israel.  You talked about the USA backing Israel in the UN, what about the UK and France?  They've both done so as well.  But only the USA seems to get your blame.  This is what I mean by bashing!


Really?  That's all?  Nothing about Frances contracts in the oil fields?  Everyone is so quick to point out America's interest in the oil, why do they overlook EUROPE, and it's interests in the oil?  After all, Europe needs that oil more than the USA does (we have our own reserves that weren't being pumped).  Why does nobody point to that?  Because it's much easier to BASH the USA, that's one reason.  Because you don't want to actually think, just react.  

The weapons inspectors were stonewalled for 10 years.  That was plenty of time to do their jobs.  Saying that France and Germany just wanted to give them time to do their jobs is just as fucking dumb as saying oil played no part in the war.  

ok heh, sometimes it seems that I just cant get that word Lbertarian right damnit heh.  In either event I am not really into politics either, just have my own opinions about certain topics just like every other American I suppose.  As for the job layoff issue with iblisajinn that he brought up saying that Bush wasnt the cause.  Well, I beg to differ.  I might not have been completely accurate on the timeline to the start of layoffs, but even before Bush got into office the workings of the layoff issues were already in the works because of the shit that was unfolding because of the election that he won.  As for layoff's it was very easy for me to see that one cause I was in one of the hardest hit cities when it started to happen.  Shit, it happened to me and I lost my job with about 100,000 other people in Western New York.  We knew then the cause of the layoffs, and we still agree today.  if you ask most people that were layed off the reason why it happened almost all of them will say it was Bush that had a hand at it.  I would get into more details but the simple fact is that it is 5am where I am at now and I am freaking tired as shit :)  Many of my friends and whatnot not only lost their jobs because of the lack thereof but their careers as well, as I did because of what had happened during and slightly before the Bush administration.  You dont really know how hard it hits until you feel the sharpness of the axe yourself.  In the Clinton administration there was a very high employment rate in Buffalo.  Whereas now, take a good look at what is left there.  How about nothing.  How about a town that since the Bush admin, has lost two seats of the house of Representatives because people lost their jobs and left cause they couldnt afford to live there anymore.  Plus they are most likely gonna have the Sabres move to Rochester and the Buffalo Bills might move as well.  The town because of unemployment has lost over 1/3rd of it's population.  Not to say it was ever a nice town, but think about it.  If Buffalo was hit that hard, how was the rest of the US affected by his admin and his higher focus on foreign issues over the employment of his people right here in the US.  Again, I am an American that believes that the people of America and their well being must come before issues outside of the country.  For without the people in the US, what is the point of protecting freedom when we cannot even deal with our own domestic issues  at hand.  Mainly unemployment and the explotation of large companies to underpay people to where they cannot live, at the same time financing an 87 billion dollar war that is now taking out benefits for our elderly as well.  All in the name of freedom.  Typical of Republicans as well as the Bush family :(  I guess the real question is when will the concerns of our nation internally be more of a focus then what is going on outside our nation.  And I fear only a Democrat in office will be able to solve that problem.

Again, srry if I rambled on there, i am tired and frustrated all at once.

:MoD:Saberian

Actually Bucc, I've been to Brazil, and a whole lot of other countries in this world. I never had any problems when I went to Brazil, we could walk on the streets of downtown Rio at night without having to be scared of anything. We weren't warned by anyone, and I really doubt anyone would want to shave the hair off my fathers blonde head to make a wig...

Secondly, this topic wasn't about bashing America, it was a funny piece of news and I truly regret the title, perhaps it came out a bit offensive to all you patriots out there.

Oh and the fact that you ask 'who the fuck wants to go to Brazil anyway' just shows your fucking ignorance, that country is beautiful and I really recommend going there. It's not just waiting 10 minutes to go on the plane, apparently there had been checks like that on American cruisers that had taken 2 hours.

I'm really fucking disappointed with the whole lot of you idiots who take this offensively, I thought you'd know better than to think I was anti-American, I love America, and Americans, I really do, I might love Sweden more but still.

This makes me want to stop using this forum, no fucking humor here.

Bucc, you sound like one of the newly-termed "South Park Republicans" - people who may vote for the GOP as the "lesser of 2 evils" etc etc. Tech Central Station's Stephen W. Stanton put out 2 interesting articles on this idea - that people can agree with freedom, indvidualism and smaller gov't but not be deathly afraid of pop culture - and hey, they might not even be rich white guys - after all, somebody's voting for the GOP, and there are sure a lot less rich white guys than the rest of the general populace. I consider myself in this group - Bush has a lot wrong, especially on religious issues (IMHO), but who's the alternative? Dean (with his angry rhetoric)? Kerry (who by the way served in Vietnam)? I think perhaps the best would be Liberman, but he's not near the front anyway.

Check out these articles:
http://www.techcentralstation.com/100702A.html (http://www.techcentralstation.com/100702A.html)
http://www.techcentralstation.com/111402A.html (http://www.techcentralstation.com/111402A.html)

Oh, and for a laugh - can you imagine what would happen if someone in the GOP suggested an intelligence test to vote?
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/155107_firstperson05.html (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/155107_firstperson05.html)

If you read correctly, I was in Sao Palo, not Rio.  Big difference.  Like mistaking Miami for Detroit.


Perhaps?


I asked that??  Where??  Point it out now please.  Because you can't seem to fucking read if you think I wrote that.


That's not new, I went on a cruise 4 years ago and it took that long to clear customs.  Cruise ships that stop in other nations always have to go through customs and pay duty.  My sister's last cruise took 4 hours to clear customs, and that was before 9/11 as well.  All depends on how many on the cruise, and how many border agents on duty.


I'm really fucking disappointed in you for writing it too.  It was insulting and the title says it all to me.  Sorry, but I don't find some things funny.

Actually, I voted for Gore as the lesser of two evils, not Bush.  I hate Bush more than most of you guys.  It's the slagging of American I don't stomach.  Non-republicans can be patriotic as well you know.


Right now, nobody has my vote.  I hope the reformists come up with someone good.  Jesse the Body for Prez?  He'd probably get my vote over these other losers.  

First point: No one equated America with Nazi Germany. And just to make it clear, I think the US has little in common with Nazi Germany these days.

The loose equation, which was kidding on the square (means, joking, but joking in half-truths) is that Bush's policies and actions are remeniscent of those of Hitlers. If you'd like it simpler, Bush is acting in some of the same ways Hitler acted.

A very important and explicit comparison between Bush and the Republican Party's activities and Hitler's and the Nazi party's activies lies under the manufacturing of consent and the marginalization of dissent.

Sure, Bush's isn't rounding up Jews, invalids, gypsys, and gays and killing them. But, he is waging a war of aggression in Iraq after misleading the public about the threats of our supposed enemies (much like Hitler did in regards to Ceckosolvakia and Poland). The comparison is not literaly a one for one transfers of meaning: Hitler clearly had different purposes for waging war than Bush does, for example. The comparison comes under the themes of "liar and aggressor".

When Bush called Democrats in the Sentate or Congress unpatriotic because they disagreed with him for trade union protections in the Bill that created the Homeland Security agency he was acting like Hitler. When Bush lied to the American people about why this country went to war, he was acting like Hitler. When Bush buried investigations that might turn out badly for him, like the 9/11 commision or the Valarie Plume CIA leak investigation, but turned around and assaulted people like Paul O?Neill who are critical of the Administration and were, indeed, once part of it, he's acting like Hitler.

Bush is not nearly as bad as Hitler.

He is starting down that road. That's the point.

If you don't like the Hitler comparision (and the point of the comparision is to both disgust you and draw a comparison pointing out where we could end up) then subsitute Any Dictator with Hitler.

As for a lack of taste, that's a matter of opinion. I think it's tasteless, to say the least, for someone to support Bush these days. I think it was more than tasteless - it was treasonious - when people on the Right criticized those on the Left's patriotism during a debate about going to war. It's treasonous because Debate is a cornerstone of Democracy. Further, it's hypercrtical of the Right and Bush to criticize people when they practice Democracy whilst simultaneously professing to criticize their practice so that they may spread Democracy. It in fact reveals that they have no interest in Democracy persay, just an interest in co-opting the mental potentcy of the Ideal of Democracy in order to carry out their dreams of enhanced Power. It reminds me of Hitler's manipulations in the early years of his Chancellorship.

Finally, no one equated the "victims" of Bush's policies to those victims of the Holocaust or Hitler's wars. No one. That's your comparison.

Waiting in line sucks. But it's not waiting in line to be gased.

What is remenicent of Hitler is that each and every foreigner is being treated like an enemy. In fact, to simply, Bush treats everyone who differs from him as an enemy. Each and every foreigner is being finger printed and their information goes into a vast database. It'll likely help bust a few bad guys - that's good. But it's also marginalizing every single non-American who comes into the US. It makes them feel like crimminals, it makes them look like crimminals, and it costs them more money and time. In the scheme of things, one man being delayed and finger printed isn't much. But tens if not hundreds of thousands ... It is a Big Deal. It puts Security over Liberty. As a patriot it is my Duty to question my government and my president when he does things I think are un-American. I will do so in the strongest terms. If he doesn't like it I hope he resigns.

Bucc, I'm with ya. Jesse the Body all the way!

Sixhits, the problem I have with your analogy isn't that it's wrong, but that you could have found many a leader closer to Bush than Hitler.

Yes, I hate the Patriot Act, and think the Bush is slime, but you could have compared him to so many others that don't share the other history of Hitler, couldn't you?

Using Hitler is a great way to get an emotional response, but not a good way to get an intelligent one.

Hell, Stalin is a better analogy to Bush right now.  No war but also, Hitler boosted the German economy, brought them back from ruin.  Not so with Bush or Stalin.  

Bush is a fascist, just compare him to another fascist besides Hitler.

That's a very tellign point.

I guess I want the emotional reactions because I have an emotional reaction.

Bucc I wasn't pointing it to you directly, you weren't the one saying all of that, and there was someone who said it would only take 10 minutes extra, I just relayed what I had read about it. You should stop acting as if you have a pack of goats up your ass.

As soon as you stop acting like you'd enjoy that particular fetish.

To keep on topic, found this article:

RIO DE JANEIRO, Jan. 12 (Xinhuanet) -- A top level Brazilian judge Monday ordered the suspension of fingerprinting and photographing operations for US citizens arriving in Rio de Janeiro.

The President of the Federal Tribunal of the First Region, judge Catao Alves, took the decision on the grounds that "fears of terrorist attacks is not part of the national life" of Brazil, as is the case in the United States.

The measures would also "cause millions of dollars in losses due to the lack of US tourists," he said.

For the time being, the suspension will only apply to Rio de Janeiro, the only Brazilian city appealing the judicial decision for the entry-control measure on visiting US citizens.

Brazilian judge Juler da Silva last Wednesday ordered US citizens entering Brazil to be photographed and fingerprinted in response to similar requirements Washington imposed on Brazilian travelers.

The US Department of Homeland Security officially launched on Jan. 5 the US-VISIT (US Visitor and Immigrant Status Indicator Technology) program at 115 airports and 14 cruise ship port terminals.

Under the program fingerprints and photographs of visitors on US visas will be taken and checked instantly against a national digital database to prevent terrorists from entering the country.

Visitors from 27 countries, mostly European nations, are exempt from the program as they are allowed to enter the United States without a visa for up to 90 days. Brazil is not exempt.

So I guess America is "disowned"?

First - considering that almost any dictator you can think of to name wantonly kills his own citizens without due process, I would think that Bush is automatically disqualified from those ranks as he has singularly failed to execute people for political dissent.

Second - Mr. Bush is also disadvantaged compared to any number of dictators in having a legislature through which he must work to draft legislation and see it through to law, plus a nearly balanced supreme judiciary that must approve the legislation that passes.

With regards to "a war of agression in Iraq..." - the war in Iraq is and has been national policy for over five years, since the  Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998 was passed overwhelmingly by Congress and signed into law by then-President Clinton.  Since that time, it has neither been challenged nor amended, and represents the desire of the nation.

With regards to the former Treasury Secretary:
Mr O'Neill seems to be retreating from and/or retracting many of the statements made by Mr. Suskind in his book, and stated he would probably vote for Mr. Bush in November.  As someone previously mentioned on this forum, it is somewhat dangerous to accept the word of a disgruntled former employee on his former employer's practices.

On dictators in general:
My parents fled the establishment of a dictatorial regime because my family was employed by the previous government - as such, their options were (a) flee, (b) get sent to a reeducation camp for the next decade, or (c) meet Mr. 7.62mm.  As neither of the latter options was particularly attractive, they chose the former.  Mr. Bush, for all of the criticisms leveled against him, has yet to even approach the abuse of power from which my family fled.

Apologies if in snipping I left out something I sought to address.

That's really the kernel of what I'm stating.

Bush isn't killing Americans. But, he is imprisoning citizen's and withholding their rights to a trial by their peers, as well as denying them consul. It's not the same thing as offering up those he disagrees with a bullet, but it's the same path.

Again, my favorite quote:

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." Ben Franklin

Bush is making it one of the essences of his defence against terrorism that he take away basic civil liberties.

Worse, Bush is on record stating he believes Americans need fewer freedoms and that he believes his job would be easier if he were dictator.

The artful prose of the enacted Patriot Act and the proposed Patriot II are direct reductions in the individual security of each citizen versus the overt rights of the state. They make it clear that the President considers our safety more important than our liberty. I disagree.

Much like Hitler did, Bush makes policy that reduces citizen's rights. Right now, he's targeted immigrants and Muslims, and has begun to target all foreigners in general. There are thousands of people in prison right now who have no lawyer, no right to speak with their family, and few people in the public eye speaking out for them. If they are all truly guilty of some crime then Bush should try them. If they are considered dangerous, then they still have the right to be represented. If they are terrorists, kill them or turn them or throw them in jail ... AFTER a fair trial.

The rule of Force must never be allowed to trump the rule of Law, even if the argument is that Force is needed to protect us. Your family saw what happens when force trumps law. That is the road down which Bush has taken us. He is acting like a dictator and he is doing it right in front of us.

As for O'Neill, I think his remarks need to be taken with a grain of salt. But, I believe the proof is in the pudding - look how the Administration responds to his book, one which is ciritcal of Bush, versus Bob Woodward's overly praising book BUSH AT WAR. Both cite secret documents which where handed over to them legaly by the administration. Because Bush is displeased by O'Neill's book he's trying to have him put into jail. There is a vast disconnect with the administration's response between these two incredably similar processes. And just because O'Neill says he wished he's never spoken the remark that Bush was a blind man in a room full of deaf people, doesn't mean he's making a retraction of all the points he makes in his book.

As for the war in Iraq, support for the policy of regime change is not the same as support for the process by which it was done. Bush mislead us all by laying cause for invasion at the foot of WMDs. He lied to us when he stated and implied on numerous occasions as did his people that we were at imminent threat from Saddam. It's just so much poppycock. But more than that, it was calculated, planned, and exectuted.

Bush is not a dictator yet. But he's been eager to run his office as if he were one. Manipulating facts and lying to the public go hand in hand with politics. But when it comes to things of import and magnitude like War, to find our leader both blatantly misleading and unappologetic for it is disguisting. To continue to lie and spin and slander those that speak out is as far as I'm concerned repugnant. It smack of dictators. It brings forth memories of Germany before the Nazis ruled precisely because, and this is important to note and often over looked, the Nazis were voted into office. Hitler was elected Chancelor.

I am not comparing Bush to Hitler, I am comparing their process. I am critiquing similarities. I am noting the fearsome qualities within thier approaches that make me shudder with terror for the future.

GO BRAZIL! man that is a great way to give the U.S. Government the finger. nj Brazil. It's about time somebody put this retarded Anti-foreigner mentality in perspective.

Probably a bit to far fetched for you to comprehend this but being neither stupid ignorant or lying, it was simply a matter than I was not aware this was the case. I have been aware of other extreamly controversial arms exports which the UK has been guilty off but I am/was not aware that the UK was selling israel armor (im referring to bulldozers, tanks, APC?s etc)  i would very much like to read the articles if you will supply the links...


In case you hadn't noticed America is considered to be a super power. The country holds more power than anyone else, and more capability to put pressure on other countries than anyone else. this would be enough alone but there is also the extremely close Jewish ties between Israel and the US.  Im not asking the US to suddenly go on some crazy mission to bring Israel to justice, im simply asking that it stops blocking and/or vetoing votes in the UN on the issue.

You might like to read this: http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/bt/Qmideast-israel-un.Rydk_DOM.html

The last lines bear particular significance in answer to your question:



 

Please explain:

So people blow themselves up for no reason? Most people consider the Palestinian suicide bombers to be terrorists, and to the extent that they are murdering innocent civilians i agree (if only it was that simple though). So are they doing it for no reason? IF Reason and terrorism do not go together why does Terrorism exist?!! People do things for a reason. Things happen for a reason.


Have a look at this extract from a rather interesting article:

" Is American foreign policy a threat to its very security ?
The world is becoming anti-American. Not only do most people around the world look on the US with disfavour, they also dislike President Bush, whose popularity is even questionable in the United States, where Tony Blair is more trusted and admired.

More and more people are less keen on cooperating with the US in foreign policy or in the war on terror. Growing anti-Americanism will not only undermine that campaign, but its extreme manifestations in the Muslim world are attracting new and numerous recruits to the ranks of Al-Qa'eda and affiliated or similar groups. Experts are in agreement that the primary reason people now hate America is American foreign policy. Its arrogant unilateralism, its untrustworthy rhetoric and its belligerent posturing are alienating and angering people in the East and West.

A recent poll of perceptions of the United States by the Pew Research Centre that was conducted in 20 countries indicates that since last year America's popularity has declined considerably across the globe. Even in traditional allies such as Turkey, 83 per cent of the population views the US negatively -- up from 55 per cent last year. In Europe, America's, long-time ally and cultural cousin, a majority of people look upon the US with disfavour.

According to the Pew study, there are two basic reasons why anti-Americanism is becoming a global culture: US foreign policy and the persona of President Bush"

You can read the full article here: http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00086.htm

Id really like to know what people think of that.


http://www.peacefulcommunities.ca/2003/April/apr14.htm

"The American invasion of Iraq is just the beginning of a more aggressive U.S. stance in the world, a stance that threatens the peace fabric of the world"


Yes your absolutely right, bush didn?t start this gap, it was already there, he is just (rather than trying to repare it) exaggerating it. That?s why I simply do not have issues with bush, but American forign policy, behaviour in general.

Why does it have to be one or the other? So bin Laden for no apparent reason what?s so ever decided that it was his mission to destroy western civilisation starting with America?

Yes there was an occasion I am aware off where the UK has abstained from voting on Israel. I cannn?t find the ( I think this could be on another occasion) but I will try and dig it out.


And we all know damn well that there aren?t and haven?t been any WMD?s for a long time. The issue of WMD?s was just an exuss used by the UK and the US to go to war?
Bush so cleverly linked Al-Quieda (shocking spelling) and Saddam together in his ?fight against terrorism?. The fact that there are NO known links between the two, and that they (given their backgrounds) have no love for each other other than their matching hate for America and the UK, somehow managed to get left behind.

.

Again, believe it or not it is because people expect (or did expect) better from the US. For a country that believes it is the defender of democracy, an icon of western civilisation, people feel that this super power should know better than to support Israel's treatment of the palestinians, and to use the power of the UN at its whim. Neither France nor the UK have the same weight regarding  placing pressure on Israel.

The early arrests of primarily Muslims in the aftermath of 11 September 2001 was largely on immigration and visa infractions, similar to those abused by the 19 hijackers.  The individuals held in Cuba were generally members of the Al-Qaeda brigade fighting alongside the Taliban Army and sworn to Usama bin Laden's service.

The USA PATRIOT Act, formally the USA Act of 2001, proposed by Senators Daschle, Lott, Leahy, Hatch, Graham, Shelby, and Sarbanes.  Besides being a bill authored by the senior Democratic and Republican leadership, it passed the Senate with 1 dissenting vote and the House with 66 of 450.  Accusations about civil liberties would be better laid at their feet.


A little bit of context: the statements made were in the context of working with members of the legislature in Texas and in Washington.  The latter, during a meeting with the House and Senate leadership soon after being elected, is in reference to having to compromise on legislation.  The former, regarding governing in Texas, with its limited legislative sessions.  
In that context, isn't he correct?  Life would be easier if you didn't have to work with others and compromise.

Refresh my memory, please, about Americans needing fewer freedoms.


Take your pick of favorite dictators and totalitarian regimes - with their reeducation or slave labor camps, their summary firing squads, their secret police, their suspension of a free press, their suspension of the rights of assembly - Mr. Bush isn't playing the same sport, so to speak, much less playing in the same league.  Similarities?  Feel free to elaborate, because the approaches you seem to be alleging are shared by Adolf Hitler and Mr. Bush would be the same ones that were used by Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, etc. to the present day.


Mr. Suskind's book potentially used labeled classified materials, the cover of one such document being displayed on television.  Mr. Woodward's book cites on-the-record interviews with key officials, background interviews with others, and personal notes, calendars, and observations, but not official documents.  And while Mr. O'Neill did not (nor, as a practical matter, could not) retract all of his statements, he did try to explain his comments and to back away from the most widely-repeated ones, including those of early Iraq  war preparations.  Mr. O'Neill also noted that, were he the Treasury Secretary under similar circumstances, he would have ordered an investigation by the Inspector General as well.



No, it is not the same, and with regard to that Act, the major policy changes are it mentions includes assistance to Iraqi exiles.  Subsequent legislation includes military assistance for the removal of Saddam Hussein, and while this is not explicitly a call to remove him from power, it is clear that the manner in which he would be removed is a military or force option.

With regard to slander - I cannot recall an instance of slander on the part of Mr. Bush against his dissenters, as it would be charged in the legal sense; perhaps you have a different meaning in mind?

As far as WMD is concerned - hiding nuclear weapons development materials isn't especially hard with a large amount of land in which to hide it; with bio/chem weapons, having a sample and a recipe is enough; you don't need to keep stocks on hand to be able to reconstitute them.   Also - WMDs were reported in Iraq throughout the 1990s - by Mr. Clinton, by newspapers like the Washington Post, by the UN inspectors, and by the US intelligence community.  That they have been found in large quantities yet does not mean they do not exist or did not exist.

Saying that Mr. Bush claimed there were weapons of mass destruction when numerous other sources had concurred with this for a decade, and that we have not yet found said weapons in a country the size of a large state after less than a year when Hussein had several years in which to conceal them in a police state, ergo Mr. Bush is lying and the reason for going into Iraq is a fraud - this is an illogical construction.  

If you were making a different one and I misunderstood you, please clarify.

I would certainly hope that our government calculates, plans, and executes our military operations.  The alternative is spur-of-the-moment feel good cruise missile strikes that do little other than redistribute a few tons of dirt.  Personally, however, I would have preferred to rationalize a war in Iraq to get rid of Saddam Hussein instead of WMD - although either was well within the policies of this country.

Your certainly not the only one.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3397183.stm
T-shirt anyone? You know Rio loves you.

Btw Bucc, you made it sound like you were talking about Brazil as a whole when you were describing your experience.

Bah. Knock Americans for our faults, but we live in a country where the middle finger is free speech.

"GO BRAZIL! man that is a great way to give the U.S. Government the finger. nj Brazil. It's about time somebody put this retarded Anti-foreigner mentality in perspective."

stupid kuza. no other nation in the history of the world has embraced foreigners like america has. we are a nation of immigrants. how many americans live in brazil? and how many brazilians live in america. there's probably more brazilizns living in my city than there are americans living in all of south america. tightening up security after the worlds largest terrorist attack, compared to your idea of an anti-foreigner mentality is something you need to put in perspective.

I wish people would actually read this thread before commenting.

Anyway, to put the final nail in this thread's coffin, Brazil reversed this decision already, as Spetsnaz has posted.


Brazil can't afford to lose our tourist business. Now who's owned?

So stfu before I have to slap the taste out of all your mouths.

I read they made it government policy actually, if so, it's certainly not a finished deal.