*DAMN R6 Forum

Religion has been the cause of pain and strife for humankind since the beginning of time. People faithfully kill in the name of their religious beliefs. If there is a God, why did he create a world filled with atrocity and intolerance? Why has religion been used as a tool for oppression? Why did he not leave that one shred of evidence that would prove his existence?

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."     - Thomas Paine, (1737-1809)

i am an athiest, but from time to time i contemplate the possibility of there being a higher power of some kind. if there were a god, and he did create this world filled with atrocity and intolerance, i'm sure that since we play such a small part in the big image, we won't live to see the answer. i have alot to say about religion itself, but it's hard to put into words without offending anyone, seeing as its such a sensitive subject to some. i'll keep it to myself. all i can say is that with the help of meditation and [optional] strong psychedelic mind altering substances and a good memory, things will begin to make sense.

Yes, there is a God, and there is Jesus.  Read the Bible to learn more.

-GhostSniper Out.

Ghost, I beleive in Jesus, and Jesus talks to me, or at least the name i've given to one of these voices in my head.

     "Why is it that when we're talking to God, we're praying, but when God talks to us, we're insane?"

     It's always seemed to me that to believe in the Christian God because of the Bible and to believe in the Bible because of God is a logical infinite loop, and therefore meaningless. An external source of verification is required for truth to be established.

     I hold that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a supernatural entity, god, gods, etc. is unresolvable. On the other hand, my stance on religion is not so ambiguous. Organized religion is the single greatest evil (to use an unfortunate word for lack of a more accurate one) in all human history. Belief in the god or gods of your choice is not harmful, and for most people is a positive thing. Belief in an organization which purports to be the one true source for the word of your deity is unquestionably harmful. Middlemen are parasites, contributing nothing, in business and in belief. Worse, once belief is transferred from the deity to the organization, the believer is simply a commodity and a tool for the use of the rulers of the organization.

     To quote Mr. Horse from "Ren & Stimpy", "No sir, I don't like it!"

The whole system of organized religion just sounds like a wonderful conspiracy theory anyway.

Metaphorical texts are interpreted only by those in power (i.e. the church, liturgical officials of the Middle Ages, etc) and the illiterate or uneducated masses have to take them literally.  Ultimately, since the principle question of existence is obscured by time (which erases any direct evidence of biblical characters) and cannot be in any case verified by the living - it rests solely on faith.

There are good sides to faith (and church) and bad sides, as Lothario clarified.  However, the overall important point is that no one can know God with certainty (without being the prophet of yet another religion!) and thus he believes, for whatever reason compels him to - fear, social instinct, rationalized decision, culture. . .

In any case, God can be said then to represent all that is unknown and uncertain.  Countless civilizations have had their creation myths to explain the world; deities factor in nicely.  In my personal opinion at least, God is the embodiment of everything that is to the human mind unfathomable.

What happens after death?  How did the universe begin?  What causes "miracles"?  

How easy to explain them all as God, Allah, YHWH, or however else one chooses to name it (Him).

Again personally, with so much uncertainty in existence, why is an omnipotent being not a reasonable solution?  Thus I reject atheism, because I feel no greater proof in it than in any religion, even as I reject the religions themselves.  At the same time, I enjoy some cultural traditions:  I enjoy a Passover seder and I find Amazing Grace exceedingly moving  (mixed faith household).  Yet if I ever seek comfort in faith, it'd be nice to have the presence of mind to illogically invest my emotions in divinity.

Still, I too find organized religion distasteful.  I can say to someone, "I believe in God" and it carries personal significance.  It does not mean I have any desire of attending church.  It might, however, communicate a completely different message to others.  My God is not necessarily the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. . .it is rather simply a name for what I do not understand.

Finally, to add a further tangent, the most abhorrent picture to me is the idea of evangelism.  I have had people tell me, on explanation of my beliefs (or lack thereof), that I am damned to an eternity in a fiery hell.  How nice.  Not only do I disbelieve in their theories, but why the goddamned (forgive the expression) determination to force their incipient, inchoate musings on myself?

It is the height of arrogance to demand converts to one's cause.  I can respect religion, but I have little or no tolerance for those that cannot show the same respect to others.
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Ghost - Do you believe that Jesus was literally resurrected from the dead, a metaphysical feat that defies human comprehension?  Or do you consider the story of his rebirth a parable for modern existence?  In either case, I respect your opinion, so long as you don't darn me to heck for mine.
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Why quote dilbert?  Then again, why not?

I'm an atheist,
However accepting the fact that there could be a God (definition of the word) isn't that hard. You can argue that logically there must be something to start a chain reaction of everything, however just as valid arguments can work the other way. Refer to the age old question of what came first the chicken or the egg.

Religion is just a way to form answers, like myths. However unlike myth, religion is based on sacred teachings and scriptures. According to an interesting debate on The O'Rilley Factor, there have been over 2,400 Gods/Supreme Beings worshiped over the course of human history that we know about. People don't know things, and still don't know things. If anyone here would call the Greeks (or any religious belief) crazy for thinking there were gods on top of a big mountain... they should reevaluate what they believe in. Since it takes some big brass balls for anyone to say that their religion is the right religion and everyone else is crazy. I'll just accept religion along the same lines as i accept Bigfoot.

i'd talk about why religion is evil, but loth did that already.
-jeb
ps.  ?Wives submit to your husbands, as is fitting to the Lord.? Colossians 3:18
ITS NOT ALL BAD! write that down bucc  ;D

Shit, looks like he's got you now Ace...

YOU WHO QUESTION THE FAITH AND THE EXISTENCE OF GOD ARE ALL BLASPHEMS AND YOU SHOULD ALL BE CHAINED TO A STAKE AND BURNED! Now that I have (purposfuly) made an ass of myself I will tell you why I think there is a god.

I have always taken an interest in astro-physics and the such. I note down the nature of the universe and from my observations and the many physics classes that I have taken. The universe is just too brilliant to be something random, it seems like it has been constructed and designed by some higher being or some mysterious entity. Everything from the black holes to atoms are connected by mathmatical equations and theorems. Sure there is still an attempt to make a unified theory between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics (they may succeed using this new string theory) but the cosmos are too elegant and too orginized that I beleive something had to create it.
   As for a Jesus, I am sure he is a son of god. Arent we all sons and daughters of god. As for the many gods worshiped, I see many of them as the same god with different names. Ra is Jupiter, Jupiter is Zeus. All these main gods just seem like the same god but a different name to different people.

religion=seperatism=racism=war=death
more wars have been fought and more people have died throughout history "in the name of god" than from any other thing i can think of. little more than half a century ago before tv and radio there were only books. us humans need entertanment, always have. it's just another book. i respect other peoples beliefs but i find it amazing that some people (millions upon millions) still live their life based on a book written so long ago. noah took two of each species on his ark huh? even two of each of the 250,000 something species of insects? pff...that couldn't even be done today.
can you learn some things about human history and life from the bible or kuran etc. yes. should you live your life based on the bible and the things in it? that's your problem. i gotta go back to work. double shifts for the next couple months. so pray for me all of you.

Cossack ur right about being the same... i think that the jewish, christian and islam all have the same god... (i think thats how it is not possitive im just kinda out of it so)

I totaly agree I think the whole religion thing was set up as a form of control.

Kuza

GS, a word of wisdom from drunk old uncle Cossack (I have been having fun with that ever since my sister had a kid). Now I mean this in the most respectful tone possible. No one gives a flying shit about what wars your family members have been in, and in this context what wars they have served in contribute nothing to the religious views you have put before us. I dont know what purpose you tried to fufill by telling us what your ancestors did. One could assume you are trying add credibility to your views.
Using that logic (not saying you were using it) I could state, "I beleive the Jews should be castrated so they wont spoil the Earth. By the way my father fought in Afghanistan, grandfather in the Great Patriotic War (WWII), Great Grandfather was the personal body guard to Czar Nicholas II." It adds nothing.

Now look what you have done, you made me go off on a tangent.

***turns his head to Ghost          
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/banana.gif)

I like the part in simpsons where someone is trying to make bart belive in god and repent his sins so he can go to heaven. And bart says "Why can't I sin my whole life and repent at the last second and still go to heaven" That dosent really have anything to do with this though...  :-X

If god dosent excist...then who made the big bang, not the "big" bang that made the earth i mean the big one that made everything  ??? (thats a funny question to think about when your wasted  ;) )

yeah and if god made the bigbang who made god then?
you can think about that also.
Well everything is here to serve only one and that needs to be me  ;D
thats how i think about and maybe I change my opinion on that after I am dead but I first need to know what comes after dead.
i think it cannot end there. otherwise theres just nothing
we are living just for nothing for nihil rien niets aah.
So I give you something to live form and thats for me ;D

Well that question is impossible to answer because time didn't exist before the big bang, so technically there was never a "before the big bang".  Time not existing is a pretty hard concept to think about though.

Maybe when you die you do just no longer exist.  I mean have you ever been knocked out?  You have no memory of what happened in those moments it is just as if one point you're standing, and the next point you're somewhere else.  Isn't our memory what defines us anyway? When you can't remember something it's as if it never happened and when you die you have no more brain activity, and when you have no brain activity you can no longer remember anything.  I always wondered why humans are naturally afraid of death, it must be something bad if instinct makes us fear it.  

The movie "waking life" posed an interesting theory.  It is well known that dreams only last a few minutes but to the dreamer it feels as if it lasts for hours.  And basically they said that the brain still has 12 minutes of activity after the heart has stopped beating and 12 minutes of real time could be an eternity of dream time, and the afterlife could be all just a seemingly  everlasting dream.

Anyway this is tripping me out I'm out.

I just don't feel that I should have blind faith in something that has purposefully caused just as much pain in life as good.  Should I be thankful and praise a creator that causes strife in the majority of existence.  Maybe I should curse the bastard and not thank him.

It's funny how if you read scriptures it states that the pain is due to man and nothing else.  Well, the weaver of such wisdom and infallable inventions has therefore fucked up and is fallable. Basically we were created to praise a higher being that usually does nothing to help ease the pain, but we should be so thankful for the creation itself.

That's like thanking a doctor for not helping you when you have been shot, and not only does he not help you, he gives you no morphine.  He just watches knowing he could help.  Now that's one sadistic bastard right there.  That is why Serial Killers usually have the God complex.  They feel they are God because they can choose whether people live or die.  They get off on it.  So in a sense, is God the serial mastermind who likes to watch.

These are the question along with many, many other problems that have made me lose my faith.  I would get into specifics, but then I would have to paste my 100pg Thesis on this one.

My views on religion is that it is simply an explanation.  The Greeks, Romans, basically every ancient culture, had many gods to explain the way things were.  The Native Americans had stories that they passed on to their children to explain the world.  My belief in the Bible is that it was created to explain existence.  And what better explanation that a supreme being like everyone else had come up with?  

Not until very recently in human history have we developed the means to understand things scientifically.  I tend to believe in what I see.  So until I see God standing here in front of my face what physical proof is there of a supreme being other than a mere book?  

If you beleive in a merciful God in this world I have a quote for you.

To quote Vin Diesel in Dark Black. "I absolutely believe in God.  And I hate the  
                                                    motherfucker."

Kind of ties in with the meaning of life, another nice question.  But that one on the most basic level has a pretty straitforward answer:  survive and reproduce.

Instinctually, as animals, we fear death because we need to survive in order to pass on our genes and continue the species.  Who knows why we want so badly to continue to exist, but in any case what meaning does existence have if it's not to be perpetuated?

Although this seems a rather odd subject for a message board, I'll chime in my two cents. I was raised in a liberal christian church and although I took a few years off as an atheist I have slowly been finding my way back in. I still have reservations, especially when I consider all the awful things done in the name of religion. Yet all those things were done by people, not by religion. Religion has a lot of potential -- to make people behave ethically, love their fellow man, and seek social justice.

What draws me to religion is a vague belief in a higher power. There is a lot of philosophical thought that to back this up. I see the bible as a spiritual guide, but recognize that it is written by humans and reflects the cultural norms of its time. I believe that a historical figure named Jesus did exist, but I find a literal ressurection and some of the other dogma a bit hard to believe. Not all my religious beliefs are fully formulated -- I've gone through many changes, and am very likely to go through more as I learn more and make more decisions about what I believe. Right now, the main meaning religion has for me is service -- I do a lot of community service with a local church and I think it's a genuinely beautiful thing. Religion for me has no circles of exclusion as many of you have complained about. The critiques that many of you provided deal with very specific questions that seem to have frustrated you. I don't think religion is here to solve all our problems. The bible cannot answer all your questions. At some point, you just need to have faith.

At the same time, I have serious problems with most religious people. Specifically, evangelicals, fundamentalists of any type, and anyone who wants to bring specifically religious ethics into the rule of law. I am a strict church-state separatist. Christianity in America has been coopted by bigoted idiots -- when most people think of christians, they think of morons like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. The bible cannot be interpreted literally. It's a historical document about the development of christianity that is largely metaphorical. There are many oppressive things in it that reflect the times, including supposedly "anti-gay" scripture, slavery, oppression of women and the like. To support things like this in the name of God is wrong and disgusting.

I would state that, yes, I do believe in God. I cannot imagine living on this earth for no purpose, wasting my on a small planet in a vast ocean of dead space. If I believed there was not any higher power or any meaning to my life, what would be the point of living? It is comforting to believe that someone is watching over us. I believe that I will be able to live my life as a better person if I have a strong faith in a higher power. Both as a force to set me on the right path, and something to compare myself to.

While the above may sound like the rantings of a religous fundamentalist, keep in mind that I was raised an Espicopalian(see, I can't even spell it) and that I seldom attend church anymore. I am also not a simpleton, who accepts whatever is told to him. These beliefs are things that have been percolating at the back of my mind for my short 17 years.

Well, I guess I believe in God, but since He/She hasn't revealed Himself/Herself to me yet, I can't say I know He/She exists. I don't go around saying "FUCK GOD!" or "I hate Christians" or "Fuck Towelheads" or anything like that, I try to be respectful of other people's beliefs. I do, however, think that a good 95% of Christians are hypocrites. Christianity teaches it's followers to be tolerant of others, respectful of other religions, not to kill your fellow man, and not to judge, etc. Now, I know that there's intolerance in other religions as well, but it clearly states in the Bible not to kill and to be tolerant of other religions. Just seems kinda funny how people run around calling themselves Christians, yet don't follow the basics of their own religion. Anyways, I'm done ranting. Didn't mean to offend anyone, and if I did, I'm sorry.

For sake of comparison I've compiled a short list of interesting quotes from the Bible, Koran, George W. Bush and Osama Bin Laden.

"We come before God to pray for the missing and the dead, and for those who loved them.... Our purpose as a nation is firm, yet our wounds as a people are recent and unhealed and lead us to pray.... This world he created is of moral design. Grief and tragedy and hatred are only for a time. Goodness, remembrance, and love have no end, and the Lord of life holds all who die and all who mourn.... Neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities, nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height nor depth can separate us from God's love." - George W. Bush

"Tyrants and dictators will accept no other gods before them. They require disobedience to the First Commandment. They seek absolute control and are threatened by faith in God. They fear only the power they cannot possess -- the power of truth. So they resent the living example of the devout, especially the devotion of a unique people chosen by God." - George W. Bush
 
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother..." - Matthew 10:34-35 (AV)

"... all who are under the yoke of slavery ... who have believing masters ... must serve all the better since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. If any one teaches otherwise ... he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy..., which produce envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among men who are depraved in mind..." - I Timothy 6:1-5 (RSV)

"I'm fighting so I can die a martyr and go to heaven to meet God. Our fight now is against the Americans." - Osama bin Laden

"Here is America struck by God Almighty ... so that its greatest buildings are destroyed ... I swear to God that America will not live in peace before peace reigns in Palestine, and before the army of the infidels depart the land of Mohammed." - Osama bin Laden

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement..." -The Koran [5.33]

"Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve." -The Koran [5.73]

The only logical conclusion of a struggle between two religious radicals with contrasting faiths is annihilation. Should the future of humanity rest on faith?

Although I do think this is a weird topic this is what I think.

"You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you, says the Lord."

No, the Lord has not revealed himself to someone yet, but you must have faith in order to believe that he is our creator.

Our universe is so complex one can only think of a certain "superior one"  For example our earth it is a perfect size, the Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases over the surface of the earth. Only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface, our atmosphere contains the right mixture of gases to sustain life. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere appropriate for plant, animal and human life.  Our earth is also exactly the right distance from the sun if you consider the temperature.

Our water although displayes no color, or taste, no being on the planet can survive without it.  Our planet is the only one known with this substance.It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point, allowing us to live in an environment of constant temperature changes, keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. Take a full glass of water, add a cup of sugar, and nothing spills over the edge; the water simply absorbs the sugar. This property of water allows it to carry thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.(6)

Water is also chemically inert, not affecting the makeup of the substances it carries. Food, medicines and minerals are all absorbed and used by the body, while water remains as a neutral carrying agent.

Water has a unique surface tension. This, combined with another property of water, allows water in plants to flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, allowing fish to live in the winter.  Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that has sustained life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

My last example is the human brain. "Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could create a human brain."The human brain processes more than a million messages a second. Fortunately, your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function of the brain is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information . . . can we say mere chance assembled such an astounding organ?

Another point is the inherent sense of right and wrong cannot be biologically explained.  Why is it that their is a universal code that says murdering for fun is wrong.

God has not revealed us to him but he shows us him in the Bible.  Archaeological findings continue to confirm the accuracy of the Bible, rather than refute it. For example, an archeological find in northern Israel in August 1993 confirmed the existence of King David, author of many of the Psalms in the Bible. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other archaeological discoveries continue to substantiate the historical accuracy of the Bible.

cheers,
elite

But Elite, if the Earth had not evolved this way than we would not be having this conversation.  This somewhat goes back to my belief of religion being an explanation.  We don't quite have the means yet to research our universe in extreme detail but it is coming.  The big bang theory is an early attempt at a scientific explanation that will take years to prove or come up with an alternative.  Should I pray to a god who has much less proof of existence in the mean time?

And if you look at apes you can tell fairly easily tell where our brain comes from.  It was just a matter of time, not some mythical being.  

And some people have no sense of right or wrong.  Does God just skip some people to piss the rest of us off by having them kill the innocent?  Your inherent sense of right or wrong is imbued at childhood by ones parents, its not in your genes.

And our lovable water was created when two hydrogen sisters met an oxygen male and they lived happily ever after as a married threesome.  (Don't you all wish you were as lucky as oxygen guys?)  It was a matter of chemistry, not a manifestation of some ideological superpower.

True, however where did the ape brain start.  Was it made out of magical wand dust... no it was not, the brain must have been constructed before it began evolving.

Can science explain why every human needs molecules of water.  Why not hydrochloric acid or a different combination of hydrogen and oxygen?

Scientists are pretty ignorant when it comes to knowing what exactly organisms need to live/survive/thrive/etc. There could be life on many other planets, but because scientists are just looking for signs of water, oxygen, and the proper amount of sunlight, I'm positive they've overlooked quite a few places. For example, scientists said that there must be sunlight for life. This was proven false when an entire ecosystem was found at the very bottom of the ocean around an underwater volcano/vent sorta thing where methane gas and such was spewing out of.
Anyways, I'm getting off-topic. Elite, the ape brain came from a long period of evolution. The brain was not constructed before it began evolving. Nature simply kept changing and adding onto the brain until it became what it is today.

Those quotes are interesting, but they don't really prove all that much. Yes, there are radicals in religion, but there are radicals in almost any belief system or ideology. The vast majority of Christians and Moslems do not espouse such radical beliefs. And although I agree with you wholeheartedly that Bush is not a very good president, I don't think his views are extreme as you make them out to be. Religion in one form or another has existed for almost the entire history of man, and we have yet to annihalate one another.  Here you are just using religion as a scapegoat. Quoting the very worst elements of any movement is not at all an accurate way to represent them.

We live in an age where total and utter annihilation is a grim possibility, generations before have not been faced with such a crude reality. This is a world where the ingredients for disaster can be concocted with relative ease. Accurate representations of Christianity and Islam were not my aim, that would require more typing than I can afford myself to. My aim was to simply point out that there will never be resolution to this conflict. You say the very worst elements are Bush and Osama? It was my understanding that each is revered in the light of their respective followers. I tend to break things down into a more black and white manner, in that way it is less difficult to understand the underlying truth.

Fewer than 10% of Moslems believe the same things as Osama does. Somehow I don't think that they are about to bring about the end of humanity. Your concern on this issue is warranted, however the extent to which you are taking it seems a bit paranoid.

My point was that the underlying truth is that these issues are not and cannot be black and white. You are right that there will never be resolution to different religions, but I don't think it is a cause for catastrophic concern.

     Spetsnaz is right. Weapons powerful enough to kill every human on Earth have been in existence for only about three generations. It simply wasn't possible for even the most devotedly genocidal groups to kill everyone. The advantage of such weapons was that they were obvious and by their nature, difficult for anything smaller than a government to wield. The tenuous balance of mutual annihilation kept those weapons from being used. Now we have weapons which can kill a city, and possibly a nation, and which are man-portable, stealthy, and relatively cheap to develop and construct. Biological weapons are what will finally put the capacity for efficient genocide within the reach of many fanatic groups.

     Elite, terrestrial biology uses water as a medium because it is plentiful and has numerous chemical properties which make it highly efficient for biological purposes. Life tends towards maximal efficiency in terms of design. Life is expensive, so the most efficient designs tend to prosper because they can do more with less energy. Why aren't humans 10 meters tall? Because we don't need to be to survive--it would simply waste energy.

I hope you fools believe in God because if you make the mistake, and their is one, and you  do not choose him as your Lord and Savior, you will spend eternity in Hell, with the most evil thing that is 10 times worse than human kind can imagine.  But if you do follow him, you will live in paridise for eternity.  The choice is yours.


cheers,
elite

When comparing religions, there are usually two considerations:

Logic and Revelation

Logic is the human thought process that displays how much "sense" a religion makes. Logic also co-insides and checks Revelation. Revelation is the amount of revealing a religion's god has revealed to them. The best religion is the one with the most logic AND revelation.

A good example: Way back when the Modern Church of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) first started, a man called John Smith went around preaching how Native Americans were actually Israelites who canoed across the Atlantic Ocean and settled America. He claimed God revealed this to him, and God gave him two golden tablets for the Faith.

Now, this belief system is ENTIRELY Revelation, because one must blindly believe what John Smith tells you. It really doesn't make any logical sense because there is no hard proof behind any of it. (He was never able to produce the golden tablets)

Im not bashing Mormons (in fact i think they're some of the most honest people around these days), but the religion is entirely based upon Revelation rather than Logic.

The best religion is the one with the most Logic AND Revelation on their side.

-BaZ

Tasty, my naturally pessimistic ways prevent me from sharing your optimistic view of humanity. The unexpected and unthinkable often become reality as time takes its course. Paranoia is often the difference between survival and demise. I admit suffering from psychotic paranoia but it keeps me company when im alone.

Elite, if there is a hell and sins send you there, then we're all burnin. Wake up. All the fun stuff in life is a sin anyways, so how bad could hell be?

Baz, you can pick up your free copy of The Book of Mormon by contacting your local The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints like I did.

I'm Catholic.

I'm mostly going to stay out of this argument, but I do have one bone to pick. A bunch of people are talking about how organized religion is bad because of the stuff purportedly done in its name. Now, maybe I was hungover during the homily covering this, but last time I checked Christianity does not condone violence, war, etc. Ditto for basically every major religion (except a few sects of Islam from my limited knowledge of it). Now, given this fact, how can you blame organized religion for the actions of some whackos? If I went out and killed a Windows luser in the name of Steve Jobs, would Apple all of a sudden be evil?

Here is my two cents. In The Simpsons, Homer finds out that there is no God by doing tax reforms.  Some people believe certain religions are CULTS.  I believe there is an upper-being, but not sure why... Most of the people that are religious are because of troubles in their life.  When they think they have no hope left, they go to a religious place to find guidance.

An example is today, I was walking in Denver (16th Street Mall), and this guy had a sign that read "Jesus Saves" and was chanting "Be saved from fire and brimstone!"

I think he was a loon, then again they were a block away from a christian science store. Heh.  That is my 2 cents.

Blitz 8)

Here is a quote from Andrichones and the Lion (or however it is spelled). A Christian is about to be killed in Rome and a centurian asks her why she is willing to die and beleive in something she cant understand. She tells the Centurian that if her mind can understand god than he is not worth beleiving in. This is the beleif I take when I hear other religions explaining god to the letter of the law.

     Ace, there is a difference between the Word of God and the agencies which enforce and relay that Word on Earth. The Bible says to be peaceful and groovy, but the Church said to go to the Holy Land and kill Muslims for fouling Jerusalem, and thus the Crusades were on. Believers in a church are tools of that church. Believers in a faith, and the faith itself, are a different matter entirely, and I'm not talking about them.

Do you enjoy life?  I mean looking into the eyes of your new born child, or sharing your dreams and passions with one you love, or simply playing your favorite video game, or tasting your favorite candy bar are all simple yet wonderful moments that evoke such powerful feelings inside people.  I like to look at life as a gift, I mean I have the oppurtunity to feel such amazing things that I wouldn't be able to if I was dead, and I believe all of the pain and suffering I endure is worth just those simple moments of tenderness.  I do admitt I've had an easier life than a lot of people, but I've been through a lot more than the average person.  I have no religious affiliations, but I would have to say I do love god (or whatever it is out there) for the gift of existance.  It kind of reminds me of the question is it better to have loved and lost then to never have loved at all?

Wow, in the christian faith, the Lord asks you to repent your sins and you will be forgivin.  We are all sinners, that is clear but the praying and asking for his forgiveness is what the christian faith is about.

How bad could hell be?  It is unimaginably bad.  The human mind does not have the capacity to even imagine hell because it is so terrrible.

cherrs,
elite

I have to disagree wholeheartedly with you, Elite. Let's break this down a bit, first. Satan/Lucifer/whatever you want to call him, he rose up against God, and was banished from Heaven because of it, correct? Now, he goes around corrupting people, making them sinners,etc., so they can't get into Heaven. However, why would Satan do God's dirty work in punishing the sinners, since they hate eachother so much? Well, at least, Satan hates God. I guess God doesn't really hate anything (except people ;) ). The way I figure, Hell must be a pretty happenin' place with lots of fun. I don't see why Satan would punish someone for going up against his eternal enemy. No one who wrote the Bible went to Hell, found out what it was like, and came back. Same goes for Heaven. Anyways, just my two cents. I'm not a Satanist or anything, still believe in God, but the whole Heaven/Hell thing never made much sense to me. Anyways, if there WAS a Hell, everyone's going. Like I said earlier, most people are going against the very basics of their religion by judging others and not showing the proper respect to other religions. I doubt God will forgive everyone, especially since these people are doing it because they have the one true faith.
On a side note, I hope all televangelists go straight to Hell, if there is such a place. Faith-healers, too. Damn con-artists are using the word of the Lord to extort money from the poor.

i'd just like to say that hell has nothing on wisconsin. that and from what i hear they are quite impressed with cell phone service agreements and are studying them to improve their contracts for selling your soul

(for those of you who cant tell this is a joke, meant to amuse people.i'd point out my views on the subject, but i  long ago realized that religion is a subject that is useless to argue over (presidential policy is another) because nobody ever gives up when beaten, and most arguments degenerate into a morass os speculative thinking supported by an acute lack of data)

Good point Brain.  Kinda fun to throw about a good argument on the subject though.  And Mellow I'm with you on the hell argument.  Might be a kick ass place.  I mean, why would the forces of heaven ever advertise good things about their rival?  Do you see The Bahamas saying nice things about Cancun?  Hell no, its bad policy to make your competitor's look bad.  Pretty much only one sure fire way to end this argument though.  Let's take this to the afterlife.  See you there.

ok, have fun burning ;)

Brain where are you from in wisconsin.. I'm from there too.

heaven looks boring if you see the church at the moment
I think I am going to blew me up at the american embassy in name of the silam I heard you get a lot of woman then

     The Bible says forgiveness is readily available, yes? So why bother living a holy life? Sin it up for 90 years and repent a few minutes before you kick off. Bam, saved. You're right, a forgiving and gullible god is great.

I have to agree with Loth on his last post.  Forgiveness is only one pentance away.  So, at the gates of Heaven, exude a serious "I'm Sorry", and strut your ass right in.

Besides, Hell is described as eternal.  Well, much like most annoying things the mind has the great capability to adapt.  So, in time, (remember you have eternity), you will get used to the torture at hand and it will be no more than a pinch.  Then so on and so forth with an eternity of this game.  Funny though, you can be damned for eternity for not being too Holy for an average of 70yrs.  Sounds a little stupid to me.

Also, think of the sins that must not be available in Heaven, but obviously available in Hell.  Orgies, sex with any women you choose, drugs, booze, the metric system, motorcycles, smurfs, las vegas and all the other shit looked down upon by the church.  Hell, even Jim Morrison and Frank Sinatra would surely be there.

 I got my bags packed.

Viva Tijuana

im sorry loth, i dont think its that easy, and i dont think god is that dumb. the repentence has to come from your soul, you have to realize your evills(double L intentional) and repent them. if you count on last minute insincere repentence, and then skipping giggling into heaven...i believe youll be sorely mistaken. as to hell, maybe it was constructed to try to show some jaded individuals that in the end, justice, ultimate justice does exist. for again, if hell didnt exist, if that promise of punishment did not exist, why not do it?

Rather than talking about an omnipotent God, the topic is about a God, or a Creator of everything.
The idea of something starting a chain reaction, or the chain reaction being infinite. You can logically prove that something started everything (god), or that nothing started everything.

As an atheist i can accept both the possibilities, since neither can be proven. Resulting in the argument being pointless.
To quote Cossack's Great Grandfather  ;)

and a dumb little religious joke
What would the world be like without women?????
Perfect, we'd still be in eden.

Since most of you are so uninformed, I doubt this will come anywhere soon:)

Quick question:
Why WOULDN'T an almighty god create wars? Where does it say he hates war? God is Good means he loves you as a person. Doesnt mean he doesnt mind you dying.

Me = catholic

Acri, your blatant superiority complex is sickening, perhaps you could enlighten some of us with your enhanced knowledge of the subject. Im quite "uniformed" but it was my inclination that God does not condone the murder of fellow man, which is the basis of war. If God condones murder, it further reiterates my point that religion is a blight on mankind.  

 if religon is such a "blight" as you say, why has some form of worship existed since the start of the human race? i know that you might be pessemistic, but you cannot tell me that we couldnt have figured it out after all these thousands of years. the fact that religon is still a powerful force in our world demonstrates how it is a positive thing

I fail to see your logic. Perhaps, im too much of a laymen. The fact that its a powerful force makes it a positive thing? I think not. This increases its ability to be used in the wrong way. Societies have been manipulated through religion on countless occasions, with horrific results.

"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system." - Thomas Paine

Just remember, murder and violence have been around just as long as religion. I don't see those as a positive thing, yet they bring more personal benefits than religion. Kill another caveman for his food, get to eat for another week, etc. Kill off another tribe of cavemen, and steal their homes, and you stay warm for the winter.
Anyways. I have nothing against God or believing in God(s). However, religion is just another way of controlling people and extorting the weak. I doubt God is very happy with how things have turned out. Remember, you don't have to go to Church to be a believer.

45 min SW of Milwaukee on i 43


happy now ghostsniper?  dont make me spam you till you glow

 ;)

OMG!!!  YOU'RE NOT BRAIN....YOU DIDN'T POST IN GREEN!  Quick, somebody SHOOT the imposter!!!

http://objective.jesussave.us/kidz.html
religion gone wrong..

here is religion gone wrong
(http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2002/AIDS_Is_Gods_Curse_Bush_Ranch_6-15-2002.jpg)
i can't believe people are that serious.

Bronto, I could not agree more. A childs mind is easily so easily tainted. It is quite sad to see free thought struck down from the mind of a child before it even has a chance to grow. I thought this was especailly poingant: There's a picture of "Mr.Gruff" the atheist, whom is a cartoon goat, the following is for young children to see:

If you find an Atheist in your neighborhood,
TELL A PARENT OR PASTOR RIGHT AWAY!
You may be moved to try and witness to
these poor lost souls yourself, however
AVOID TALKING TO THEM!
Atheists are often very grumpy and bitter and will lash out at children or they may even try to trick you into neglecting God's Word.
Very advanced witnessing techniques are needed for these grouches. Let the adults handle them.

That site practically made me sick.

You can thank the parents for turning kids that young into religious zealots.  Boy am I thankful church was so damn boring that me and my dad stayed home to watch the American religion that is Sunday football.  

Thank you Jeb, for once I agree with you!

Oh and a couple of things to various people, since this has gotten way to tangential to carry any one decent thread of debate:

1.  elite - if you're going to plagiarize someone else's self-evident observations about water, and you choose not to cite the source, at least remove their parenthetical documentation.  "(6)"
2.  elite - did you read my post about the insensitivity and arrogance of informing the world that they will be damned for disagreeing with you?  Go back to the first page - if you were going to flaunt your arrogance you could have included an explanation of why.
3.  elite - interesting argument about the choice of belief or not as a matter of probability.  Again, unoriginal - Blaise Pascal was the first to advance that theory.  However, how hypocritical is faith if it's based of the possibility of punishment and not any genuine feeling. . .think for yourself.

Blanket generalization - Lack of independent thought, as evidenced by our guinea pig elite, has been the greatest single threat to civilization from the dawn of time.  This manifests itself in fundamentalist literal religion, and sheer idiocy of the masses.

Also,
Yeah, but then what's the point of existence?  If God's going to kill you off anyway, why bother being just and merciful.  Of course that too is unknown - one has to rely on faith - typical of God again. . .

But why believe in something that in the end offers you no hope.  If you can't believe in a God that doesn't like war, I don't see the point of believeing at all.  (Unless, perhaps, you're in the army and like it, or you just get off on violence)

Loudnotes,

The website that published the article about if their is a god, was written by me, so yes I could have left the sorces in but it certainly does not constitute as plagarism.  Please don't make false accusations unless your sure their right.

Spesnatz, that website is a parody buddy. Sorry to break it to you.

Seemed pretty damn real to me. This is my new hat I ordered from them http://www.cafeshops.com/objectivemin.7035393 its in the mail.

Spetz, the whole point is that the bible doesn't really say that God doesn't want war. We made that up. It actually says in quite a lot of places that God is quite evil. We humans just want to believe he is that nice so that we don't have to fear him, but MOST christians say you should.
Look at Sodom and Gomorra...

God loves you to the extent he will forgive you for your trespasses against him. No more. He is like your teacher, kinda. He doesn't love you, but he sure enough doesn't hate you... he will give you an F if you dont behave. Simple eh?

Also, anyone remotely philosophical should realize that the world is totally unviewable without any form of belief. Science, according to most actually, also a religion, based on that there is no such thing as definite proof. We choose to believe science.

     Mmm, the science-as-religion claim has never been very compelling to me. There are too many fundamental differences in the modes of thought to reasonably claim that science is just another religion. Of prime importance is the fact that religions are based upon faith--"it is written, therefore it is truth," regardless of any other data--while science is based upon the scientific method--"this is the best approximation of the truth until new data provides a better explanation." Science takes a long time to arrive at The Truth, if it ever happens at all. However, scientific truths are constantly under scrutiny, making the body of knowledge collectively referred to as "science" self-correcting and self-improving.

     To my mind, seeking truths through hard work and insight is a superior mode of existence than accepting the proclaimed word from someone else. Once a person decides that their quest for Truth is complete, they begin to stagnate.

A few more questions, elite - no researching, ok?  These shouldn't be too personal. . .

1.  Are you male or female?

2.  Have you ever been an atheist?

3.  What is your real first name?

 

Bullshit.  You had the chance to admit you'd forgotten to mention your source.  Instead, you're the worst excuse for a pious religious devotee I've ever seen.  Hypocrite.
                                                         

You know what, nevermind those 3 questions.  It would be too nice of me to give you that opportunity to gracefully admit that you're lying.  I believe the bible considers that a sin, no?

So I checked your profile - lying there is pretty sinful too, I would think, especially about your gender.  So under the assumption that you're the author of the water document, your being a 17-year old male sounds awfully suspicious.  It also sounds like you're a transsexual, if this is your real information:

As a former atheist, Marilyn Adamson found it difficult to refute the continuously answered prayers and quality of life of a  close friend. In challenging the beliefs of her friend, Marilyn was amazed to learn the wealth of objective evidence pointing to  the existence of God. After about a year of persistent questioning, she responded to God's offer to come into her life and has found  faith in Him to be constantly substantiated and greatly rewarding.

Are you a she or a he?  Are you from Wisconsin?  Do you write "persuasive" religious texts in your free time?  Or did you just happen to use the exact same words and format as this woman?

I find it appalling that after forgetting to delete all the footnotes, you then tried to claim you wrote the article.  That article appears on about a dozen websites, so apparently you're not the only admirer, but at least they cite the source.

Of course, that personal info sounds pretty bullshitty to me too, but the name usage is consistent across the internet.  Asshole.  Am I sure I'm right?  Yes.  Now repent. . .

In the future, do what everyone else does, and say:

"I found an interesting article that seems to support my flawed viewpoint at

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html"


Don't plagiarize.  You won't get far with it.

     Ouch. Very Old Testament of you, Loud.

Yeah, nice way to smite the plagarism outta him.  ;)

Quit discrimnating against transsexuals loud. Bigot.

Nice post, Loth. With that post, you have added yourself to my mental "smart people" list.

Brain 17:67
"... and the LOUD did look down upon the people, and amongst them he saw the sinner. The unclean one who was trying to lie and cheat and steal from the other people who were trying to keep the faith.  This angered the LOUD greatly, and so he chastised the sinner and threatened to cast him out of the garden of GG lest he repent from his evil ways..."

Acri, like I said if God condones the murder of fellow man it further reiterates my point that religion when macroscopically viewed has been a blight for mankind. Personally, I would rather not live in fear of a deity, because a book written by men tells me so. As for God being like a teacher, I have to this day never been in fear of damnation from any teacher. The world being not viewable (unviewable is not a word) without belief may be true, but belief in what can vary greatly. For example I can choose to believe what is real, not what an organization with less than honest intents indoctrinates me to believe. Science can be proven and recreated. Science is not based on mythical historical documents, rather logic, which to me gives it more validity than prescribed faith.

Cossack 20:22
And so the Loud cast the sinner out, and it was good.

Spetz, how do you prove science? I would like to hear that :)

Hey guys, this thread is growing so fast...


How about we open a chat room and thrash the heathens and believers in real time? I'd like that :)

Acri, you ever try curing a disease with religion?

"...and they did praise and glorify the LOUD..."

Thanks guys. . .I do my best  ;D

Oh and Spetsnaz - ever heard of the Christian Scientists?  They don't believe in medicine, and consequently don't live as long, although there is some curative power to be had in positive thinking.

Spetz: People do it ALL the time.

Heard of placebo? As far as I know, scientist has no explanation to how that really happens... Let's call that the hand of god, just for kicks.

Acri, with varied and unpredictable results. They relied heavily on such practices during the black plague and lets just say it was less than effective.

Loudness, heh, Ironically my mother was raised a Christian Scientist, fortunately she decided to give my mind the benefit of free thinking. I do know extensively about the teachings of Mary Baker Eddy(founder of Christian Science) though.

Ok, just because I can't stand inaccuracies I have to jump on some of these.


1) Water does have taste, even when distilled.
2) Earth is not the only place known to have water.  
3) Water does not have a high boiling point, not when compared to many other elements and compounds.  What's the boiling point of salt for instance?  (yes, there is one).  All elements and compounds have freezing and boiling points.  Water is only special because the two are so close together (and it's not unique either, there are other compounds like CO2 that are much closer).
4) if you wanted a more unique property of water you could have mentioned that it can't be compressed, which is very unusual.  Or that it expands at freezing, which is also unusual.


1) Add more suger, and it becomes supersaturated and can no longer absorb and it will spill over.
2) Think you are overlooking the hemoglobin maybe.


1) Water is not chemically inert.  Not at all.  Toss some Cesium or Lithium or Potassium into water, tell me what happens?  Do you get a reaction?  A highly thermoreactive reaction I'd say.  Water will react with other compounds and elements, though it's not very reactive.
2) If you want inert, talk nobel gasses.


1) Water has a surface tension, because of the dipolar nature of the molecule.  
2) What allows water to be pulled upward by plants has to do with osmossis and partial pressures.  Not really properties of "water".  No more then you sucking it up through a straw is a property of water.


1) You just put the chicken in front of the egg.  The reason the oceans are so salty is because of the process you describe.  Water runs down the land, collecting minerals, which it carries down to the sea.  The oceans are forever getting more "salty" (except in Florida, where fresh water is being pumped right into the ocean at a huge pace).  
2) You are also ignoring the underground water and how that is filtered.

I realize some of this is off topic, but:
1) it's a stupid topic that nobody can prove either way.
2) everyone should be welcome to their own beliefs and respected for them.
3) nobody should try to force their views (or lack thereof) onto anyone.
4) nobody should discriminate based on these opinions.
5) I can't bloody stand someone basing an argument on false premises like this.

Wow. . .I'm pretty sure Bucc and I just completely agreed on something.  Scary thought.

And as for the whole placebo effect - the explanation I've always heard, scientific or otherwise, rests in the simple power of the human mind.  Sort of a self-medication for psychosomatic diseases that could simply be brought on as a way of the body telling itself it needs a rest and recuperation.  There are some interesting theories - that in some cases the body physically manifests symptoms of known diseases to induce itself to take a break.

Bucc, I reckon I'll quit posting "stupid topics" topics like this, I thought it was pretty interesting to see peoples opinions on the matter.

Good job bucc, but you forgot a few things


4) if you wanted a more unique property of water you could have mentioned that it can't be compressed, which is very unusual.  

all fluids are relatively incompressable (compared to air and other gasses) take hydraulic oil for example


1) Water has a surface tension, because of the dipolar nature of the molecule.  
2) What allows water to be pulled upward by plants has to do with osmossis and partial pressures.  Not really properties of "water".  No more then you sucking it up through a straw is a property of water.

 3) all polar molecules have surface tension

NERDS!!!!!

also, i retract any statement loudnotes has agreed with.

The water article also failed to mention how relatively unamazing the chemical makeup of water is. . .hydrogen and oxygen are pretty common elements in the universe at large, as far as I know (well, maybe not oxygen. . .I'm not sure) so the prospect of their combining doesn't seem too revolutionary.

Jeb, I guess God now hates fags for certain then?  And I suppose we can't be nerds anymore. . .too bad.

Oh well.  By the way, bronto posted this link earlier and I just now saw it - everyone should read it, it's funny.

http://objective.jesussave.us/kidz.html

Clarence Darrow to thread.

Jeb, that's Geeks, not Nerds.

Brain, yes, all dipolar molecules have surface tension, I was just explaining the why, not that it was unique.  And there are the compression point I shouldn't have said unique, but it's not universal either.  Especially if there are other elements suspended in the water (like C02), then the "water" can be compressed as well.  =D

Spetz, it's stupid for people to argue over the existence of God(s).  Because we all know that neither side of the argument can win, ever (at least not in our lifetimes).  I don't even consider it a good intellectual exercise, since it's like running on a treadmill, you can never get anywhere with it.  Belief or non-belief also has nothing to do with intelligence or education, but with something else entirely, faith.  Since neither side can be proved, there is only one logical argument you can make, and that's that you should hedge your bet and believe, because if you are wrong, it didn't make a bit of difference (as long as you aren't paying into an organized religion, that's different).

what if there really was a god and all us non-beleivers got sent to hell?
what a bad trip that would be. *hehe sorry god!*
***points to spets "IT WAS HIM!"

It's called a Pascallian Wager.

Jeb, sounds like you're an agnostic, not an atheist.

I myself, am an agnostic, which means that I don't know whether there is a god or not. However, in this universe we live in, I don't believe a god is present, but I can not say anything about what is outside of it, or what started it in the first place, that's where my deistical god comes into play and that is the only god I am prepared to believe in. However I don't think he could care less for what happens on this Earth. Whatever happens here is our fault, and your God or gods can't do shit about it.

Hey. . .me first. . .

Meh, guess I should read people's posts more closely. I'm a big Pascal fan though.

Loth, Loud, I love you.

Acri, as for the placebo effect, it's easy to see that it's all about the mind when you consider the fact that when you look at statistics on medication for mental illnesses, such as depression, the placebo effect is much much greater than for other, more physical, illnesses.

i'm an atheist,
I say that i could accept a god simply because whatever started everything is by definition of the word, god. That is to say that the Big Bang could then be defined as god. I reject all forms of "god" by christian or any other religious definition that i know of.

I'm just curious, but who here thinks that Prayer heals people (god comes down and does the healing), and not mind over matter?

I believe in neither healing nor mind over matter, however I do believe in the placebo effect, whatever is wrong with your body can be helped by thinking happy thoughts, right? ;)

 :D

I feel cured already. . .