*DAMN R6 Forum

In the summer vacation we already had a similiar discussion which was ended by the community itself.

But obviously many people would like to see clans more involved in issues/decisions in form of a council.

Alright this is a very sensitive topic so I gonna try to filter out the needs and the issues why we could need a council represented by members of different clans:

* First one major problem is that  issues don't get decided always the same: sometimes cbs get nullified another time you get a forfeit win, etc. this is the reason why often admins don't dare to decide issues alone(with each other) and refer to my decision. This often causes a delay in making a decision/solving the trouble.  I'm mainly responsible for this problem because of the lack of rules that cover issues detailed. As a consequence season6 rules will be more clear when you get penalty points/get a forfeit win/ etc. This will make it easier for the BL admins to decide issues fast and always the same.

* Next point: often admins were skipped in an issue and guys tried to contact me directly which also led to confusion in the past. That's pretty simply to solve, such mails just get returned immediatly without an answer. So guys have to deal with the admins.

* Admins aren't online/inactive. This is a point were I could imagine a council to be useful but not the way as most of you suggested. A council including all clanleaders would be unproductive. Imagine 30people discussing an issue. This would slow down the time until an issue is solved extremly.

In my opinion a council should include at max 6guys next to the admins(chosen each season from volunteers, active clans, or suggested by admins) so you have guys you can ask for help in GameRanger or in the forum  almost 24/7 online. The council would be an addition to the current BL admin team to help out if an admin isn't online or an issue(e.g.) glitch can't be decided clearly. Here the council comes into play and offers help/advice.

However the council wouldn't have moderator rights nor admin rights at the BL page simply because that isn't necessary to solve issues. But the council has access to the BL Admin Forum Zone to discuss things privatly. All members of the council would be posted on a list here at the BL forum so everybody knows who is part of the council.

I think for rule changes we don't need a council because usually problems are discussed here by the whole community and if there were enough guys supporting it in the past the rule has been changed/added.

At all I don't see the need of a council the way suggested earlier because we have admins for a reason(same like you have a police and a president). But please enlighten me for what purpose a council would be needed. I'm interested in your opinion.

I could imagine a council only in addition to the admins so we have more "admins" online and can react faster and if admins can't decide the council decides together with a 2/3 majority and then an admin only has to do what the council has decided.

That are just my thoughts and I'm already excited about your vision of a council and what tasks it should cover because if you say the council should replace the admins everything would work slower than usual because to get a 2/3 majority can need very long.

Last but not least in my eyes the chain of command would look like this with a council:


Bye,

Mauti

Sounds wonderful, but may I suggest half the council gets replaced for every season (if good candidates are available.) That would help people feel more active and helpful and (hopefully) less neglected.

The number 6 is good enough for a council, especially if we could arrange it so there is always one guy online. This is possible if we put some time zone thought into all of it.

The council could also, perhaps, help handle the incoming feedback on new rules. Since they are six council members, probably from at least 4 clans, they could discuss new rule suggestion amongst themselves and give feedback to the ones who came with the idea. This could save a lot of time, but it could also lead to a lot of fights. Just a thought.

Something I have to add because it isn't clear yet:

At the moment admins can decide issues alone - if another admin agrees with his decision.

With the council an admin wouldn't have to wait for another admins ok - a member of the council can also backup his decision so the decision can be made faster and in the case there are some voices against the decision the council has to decide by a 2/3 majority. The BL Admin Zone and GameRanger would be the primary location to discuss issues that need a 2/3 majority.

Chain of command would be like this:

Mauti(to add/change rules also suggested by you(as it is now and always was/I don't decide any issues now the admins + council does if 2 admins can't decide alone) -> Elandrion(if you have script issues) -> The BL Admins(decide issues as printed in rules/need one ok by another admin or council member/have access to the BL script) | The council(changes every season/can decide issues together(2/3 majority) if no admin is online or help an admin to decide an issue if he is not sure) -> the clans/community(plays on the ladder and gives input for changes)

Bye,

Mauti

Admins only need approval from one council member?

All these points are only suggestions.

Well of course it could be changed but for me a council member would count as much as an admin if he works together with an admin. Because the purpose is that the council should help to solve troubles faster and more constant and issues were all admins aren't sure the council steps in and decides the issue representing the whole community. As it is now if the admins doesn't know a solution I had to make a decision and here ou often had to wait because I'm busy at university, etc. Instead of asking me the admins would ask the council.

If the admin has to wait for 2 "ok" he can also wait until another admin is online. That wouldn't save time.

General it would also be possible to limit the councils task to only jump in where in the last season my decision was needed.(except rules which will be decided by the community directly and me)

Bye,

Mauti

Basically, it sounds like council would be a sort of 2nd string admin pool for dealing with rules disputes when there isn't a pair of admins to work an issue out?

That seems reasonable except I would point out that the heirarchy would be in the shape of a diamond rather than a pyramid. I would like to see a larger pool of council that would provide a greater number of long standing clans a chance to take part in the responsibility for  decision-making as well as provide adequate back-up for the admins  at any given time.

Making sure there are council members to cover all the time zones is an excellent point, and I think more than one should be named based on regions. Realistically, we are talking about 3 time zones in US, 3(?) in Europe, and 2 or 3 in Asia. Given the nature of the job and its responsibilities, I don't think 12-15 council positions would be out of order, especially if all  they are doing is filling in when Admins are unavailable. Spread the work around- let everybody play more!

I second the rotation idea suggested by Acri- perhaps seats would be designated for reassignment, or perhaps the Admins could select the seats for reassignment based on the incubent's activity level, ability to perform the responsibilities, etc. In any case, nobody would stay on the council for more than 2 seasons.

Perhaps a way to view relationship between council/ Admins would be  Admins are 'Super'-council members, not subject to term limits...

Can i just check that .:N Noto is now a BL Admin?

ty

Only other thing while i think of it is that we actually have Admins who Play Ghost recon! No offence to the above in any way but personally i extreamly rarely see infection, hazard, typhy rebel, elanderion or voodoo in any GhR games.... just my two bob

I'm sorry, but I really dont see what the coucil would acctually do...

If a problem arises, the council would....give suggestions to the admins? I dont really like the idea of making yet another chain in the chain of command.

Rather, more admins or new admins. Or then no change at all, form what i read so far i see the council as some grey matter not sure what their task is.

Just my thought.

Yep Joka,

that is my problem as well I don't see the real reason behind this. But when the discussion suddenly started about the new league everyone wanted a council so I just brought up what I could imagine what it is but all in all I don't see the necessity and further suddenly all guys that wanted a council are away!?

I would just add few BL admins that partly change every season. So admins can really decide issues without my help, because that seemed to be a problem for few guys as well as that issues doesn't get decided the same way.

So the "council" would be realized as players that come from few active clans and become admins for one season. That's it.

Bye,

Mauti

Are admins not allowed to ask players for advice now? If they are, why a council?
If they aren't, a council might be a good idea. It would at least be a kind gesture.

Tasks of an admin: solving issues/helping with rule clarifications/moderating BL forum

Community: mainly playing on the ladders and if needed gives suggestions for improvements for rules/ladders/script/...

Another critic point why there should be a council is that the community has to less speech within the BL structure I think in case of rule/ranking system points/ the community is very well involved and the rest should be handled by the admins.

Well if parts of the admins are changed every season you have a kind of council and further if they are more admins from clans, the wishes/suggestions of more clans are directly represented in the ladder. So I would just increase the number of admins.

About rule changes of course it would be easier if we only would have to ask each clan leader which represents his complete clan but as past has shown there are also many different opinions within a clan so rules still have to be discussed by the community as it was in the past.

Bye,

Mauti

Just more admins would do the job I think
The only maybe good side to the council is that the clans have some things to say,
and I think that was the major thign the people wanted in the new league

Well the admins are from clans and furhter if they are chosen from active clans they also represent their clan somehow.

Well not many people are posting here - however season 6 starts soon and so I need a decision. OF course you can still post your own suggestions

Here is a summary of my ideas:

A) Just have more admins. With approximatly half of the admins changing each season. If admins aren't sure they don't ask me they make decisions by a 2/3 majority among admins.

Chain of command:

(Mauti -> Elandrion ->) Admins <=> Community

B) A council having between 6 - 12 people that always step up if admins doesn't come to a solution. The council discusses the problem and a 2/3 majority decides what to do. Further the council represent the community if they would like to see things added or rules modified. But other than that they don't have to deal with the daily admin stuff. The council would consist of volunteers and members of the most active clans by games played.

Chain of command:

(Mauti -> Elandrion ->) Admins <=> Council (<- Community)

Hope that sums it up pretty well. Last but not least the council wouldn't prevent that I still add 1 - 2 active admins so we can deal faster with daily issues.

Bye,

Mauti
ps: for comparison the old chain of command was like this:

Mauti -> (Elandrion ->) => Admins <-> Community
^||----------------------------------------------------||^

I think the idea of implementing a council into the structure of the current BL would not work properly.  The idea of a council is that you find a middle ground for all authority.  It is not to include the ideas, opinions, or rulings of the community as a whole.  A workable council could only be acheived by requiring Admins to vote on every issue, and then once voted on, that's the final ruling; ie. No going to Mauti or anyone else.  A council takes the power of the BL and places it into the hands of a group, or council.  Our current system does not allow for a smoothe transition into such an idea.

What I believe should be implemented into Season 6 is a requirement for Admins to make rulings that would only be passed by a 2/3 vote or 66%.  IF a 2/3 or 66% majority has not been reached, only then should it go to Mauti.  For instance:

There are currently 9 Admins for the Battle League.  On any given issue, at least, but not limited to, 6 Admins can vote.  It would take a majority of 2/3 or 66% to pass; ie. 6 voting, 4 yea, 2 nay = 66% pass.  If the vote was split down the middle such as 3 yea and 3 nay, then Mauti would step in.  In votes where more than 6 Admins are present, the 2/3 or 66% rule still applies. so if 8 Admins vote, and 5 say yea, and 3 say nay, the vote would turn out a 62.5% yea, which would not be enough to pass.  Mauti would then have to step in.  With 8 Admins voting, 6 would have to vote yes.

Also, if the above idea is used, there must be a time limit in which to vote upon an issue.  At least 3 Admins would be needed to vote, and it would have to be within 24 hours after all of the facts were presented on the Forum.  Rules would need to be written on how a Clan would properly submit a problem, and then other clan would properly submit a counter-claim.  Once both clans post, the Admins would vote.  If both clans do not, an Admin should contact the otehr clan to make sure they are aware of such an issue, if they are and they still have not put in a counter-claim, then it should be considered passed since the other clan did not rebuff the challenge.

This is actually easier than it seems, and the wording for such rules can definitely be short and to the point.  This idea would definitely be an improvemet upon the surrent system, but without completely overhauling 3 days before the new season is to start.  If an idea for a council is still floating around, let's see how the above idea works for season 6.  During Season 6, we can take our time talking about a council and seeing if it would work or not.  If the above system works smoothely, then no need for a larger or non-Admin council.

I can elaborate on the above plan I stated if I need to, but I think it is clear enough to get the point.  If anyone sees a problem with this system, then post what the problem is, and then post how you would correct it.

.::|N| Noto

If we decide to go with the council, what if we had a setup something like this...

Admins- votes count as 2
Council- votes count as 1

That way council members could have a direct application of their opinion on the issue, while still maintaining the Admin structure.

I like Noto's idea of the 66% rule.

With only 3 days before the season starts, perhaps this dicussion could be geared towards Season 7.  A council has many loopholes and loose ends, and many haven't been addressed, let alone solved.

Let's make the issue of Admins ruling more clear and concise.  We'll take something that somewhat worked before and make it better.  By making a council that works with the Admins, more people are involved, more time is taken, more feelings are hurt, more flames will appear, and more problems will most likely occur.  The council idea is very sensative and should be given more time to be well thought out.

.::|N| Noto

How bout less admins/mods for some clans... I'm not trying to get MP in trouble or whatever.... We have cleaned things up and are now cool... Just curious as to why 1 clan can have upto 4-5 admins and then clans that play the most have 0?

I mean we have prooved last season that were not flaming bafoons on this forum anymore.... Ok so i speak for myself... but the rest of bts dont flame...

I think we have come up with fair decisions when other clans have come to us to ask us a question or 2 about either gameplay or questionable glitches...

well... either way SCREW YOU GUYS IM STARTING MY OWN COMPUTER COMPANY!

**hey mauti will that get me on the council?


I mean shit... alot of the new rules were adpapted from old ladders...(BTL)

There is more then one admin for the battle league in MP? Thats news to me. I thought I was the only admin in MP. Ace and Brain are General Gossip forum moderators, but I would think you would know the difference eight.  ;)

Hey guys sorry I didn't see this thread sooner.  I was the leader in posts on the N forum about the council issue.  Let me explain it a little better.

The council was going to be the rule creator/reviser in the proposed league.  To put it in *damn league terms, it was the Mauti.  Here, we not only have a Mauti ;), we also have his statements above that he plans to clarify the rules to better empower the admins.

This, in short, solves the problem.  A council is not neccessary here.  The suggestion of more or rotating admins is a very good improvement, however.  I would love to see that happen.  Any other questions please feel free to ask, I had the whole workings of the new league's governance worked out pretty well.  I am happy to be your resource.

Earlier in this thread a sort of "under-admin" position was proposed.  I kind of like that.  While they have no power to judge-and-jury anything, what better way to help everyone play by the rules than to place a list of "rule gurus" at their disposal, on gameranger when they are?  I can't tell you how many times clanners pull out their copy of the BL rules mid cb, and sometimes have to stop and try to grab an admin for something small and seemingly trivial.  If you wanted to go even further, have a special gameranger icon/tag which makes rule gurus easier to find.  Its the little things which make all the difference when you're having a bad day.

I am for the provision creating rotating admin seats rather than a council. Seats could be good for one season, with half being replaced at teh end of each season, All seats would be replaced over the course of 2 seasons.

My only reservation is: are there 24-36 ppl available and capable of doing the job?

I have some reservations about the 2/3 rule. First, it's asking a lot that all admins vote on every issue (if I am reading the thread properly). Especially if there is a time limit on issuing a decision. Here is what i propose:

Senior Admins (those in permanent seats or those in their 2nd season) will look in the problem drop box and when there's something there, select 2 other admins based on who isnt already working on something else. These 3 will deal with that specific problem. This would be for basic rules interpretations (glitching, improper substitutions, etc). This would greatly speed day-to-day 'minor' issues. Time limit for verdict: 24 hours

For issues which deal with subjects not covered in the rules, the full admin pool would be consulted, with teh 2/3 majority required to create new rules. Mauti would have input and  veto power. Because people go out of town, a quorum could be set- 10 admins, say. A minimum of 10 voting admins on any issue. Mauti would hold the tie breaker vote. Time limit for verdict: 48 hours.

Thanks for reading

I'd like to apologize for not responding sooner as well. Work has gotten very hectic here. Anyone know two or three architects in nyc that need jobs? jk...

I think Ara cleared up what we had discussed regarding council vs. admin responsibilities. The council makes the rules, the admins enforce them. The council are elected, from the pool of clan members/leaders. The admins are appointed...more like 'professionals' than politicians.

I agree that the council idea needs more work, especially if it needs to be integrated into the existing heirarchy here.

My underlying interest in the council was that the whole rule-making and rule-enforcing apparatus be made more transparent on the one hand, while certain issues be more closed on the other.

For example: an issue comes up in a cb, which brings to light a previously undiscovered issue. The admins consider the issue, and realize that they cannot rule upon it due to the lack of rules on the matter. The admins bump the issue up to the council, who have an open discussion on the forums, with different viewpoints addressed, and a vote of council members is made to decide the new rule, which then bumps the issue back to the admins to enforce.

I grant you that this is different at all from how most issues have been handled in the past. However, it is not how ALL issues have been handled. Also, it would be beneficial for ALL council discussions to be held on open forums, while the admin discussions are held privately. Here's why:

In another cb, something happens which suggests to team-A that a member of team-B is cheating somehow. If they want to go 'official' with that allegation- meaning that they want the match forfeited and the cheater suspended/ejected from the league, that should be done privately, not in public view. Too often in the past, calling someone a cheater becomes a massive flame-fest, with no productive purpose except tarnishing the name of a person and their clan for all time. That's a serious thing, to me. Someone should not be able to call someone a cheater unless they have proof, and that proof is validated by the admins. There should also be a penalty for making public allegations that are later proven false.

I feel that glitches could be dealt with in a similar way. Making them public just gets messy. Why not have the issue looked at quietly by the admins, who can call in 'experts' to review the data if need be. Making it public just gets ugly. Once a decision is reached, sure, let everyone know what happened and what not to do in the future so we can all benefit from the lessons.

The underlying concept is that the making of rules is a public act, which welcomes wide participation. The enforcing of rules is private, and should be limited to the interested parties. The results of enforcement should be public, so everyone benefits from understanding the rules.

Hope this is a productive contribution. I agree that this needs more discussion to be useful, so maybe this is season-7 material.

Thanks for your posts guys.

In response to Eight: there aren't 4-5MP admins now(except you count Grifter and Destructo too) and further Ace, Brain and Voodoo weren't in MP when they became admins. In short MP didn't excist when they became admins.

However for season 6 I'm looking for another 3 - 4 admins. At least one, preferable 2, should be from Europe and 2 others from US clans that were active last season so if you still want to become an admin for at least season 6 post in the thread I gonna post soon.

All in all when you made your first post about Noto being an admin I said to you wait a little bit, because I would have asked you personally if you are still interested but obviously you can't wait so I make it again short: if you are interested chances are unfair high that you will make it  ;)

Dinner now see you later,

Mauti

Wow.... make it 0 MP battle league admins.

Eight's attempt at making a point ----> pwnt

 8)