*DAMN R6 Forum

Simple...

(I didn't think this one up. It's just a thought...)

1. Eject your Ghost Recon CD.
2. Join a GhR game.
3. When the "Insert your Ghost Recon CD" message appears, launch NetFone.
4. Once NF is set up, insert your Ghost Recon CD again and hit "OK" in GhR to continue launching.
5. You're done!

Has anyone found a way to hide NetFone from GameRanger?

LOL

nj blu

These kind of things should be distributed in private not in a forum that Evill browses occasionally.

LOL Blue - now we can be sure - that Evill blocks this "go arround" with the next update :-) cool Idea to show Evill where the bugs are - Why didnt u tell this to him directly that would have been much easier  and faster for him.

 :P

What, you thought I didn't think of that? ;)

What's he going to do? In order for him to make a fix for this, he would have to make GR check every so often to see if NF is on, or have Aspyr put in a fix as well (they wouldn't agree to do that, at any rate).

Evill himself said that he could think of several ways that his detection system could be foiled. Someone's probably already found a different way of going about this fix.

Send an email to Haxial Software, et see what they think... ;)

support@haxial.com

I'm also pretty sure several privacy rights are being ignored.

Very nice idea. Not that Haxial can do anything, but it would be nice to see Haxial go on another rampant, bigoted whine-fest like he usually does.  ;D

I figured this out but I was keeping it quiet.

Now that everyone knows about it Evill will probably have it scan for netfone every so often. Not a hard job for Evill just some extra code.

errr Evill would become gayer then he allready is for doing such a thing. Its a shareware software. There is no part of netfone that tells us we cant use it and that we MUST waste 50 bucks to buy shitty GR premium. Thats like an online game making us pay real money to use grenades. Wth is that guy thinking. Sure evill make GR premium only. See how many people u get to come back. If he made everyone pay or leave, id sure as hell leave cause GR should be free plain and simple, if he wants to get more money he can put more adds onto GR for games and such to bring in the cash. Its not our fault we dont wanna spend 50 bucks a year to change the color and type of our font or talk in game using the laggy and odd voice system of GR. As of now GR allready messes up mine and many others voices making them sound like little children. Id love to see Evill pull this stunt. Bring it Evill.

Quesiton:

Can't Haxial take legal action against this? It isn't Evill place to restrict the use of software that he did not create? I mean he can offer a option (GR Voice Chat) but this is trying to push a monopoly.

Evill's argument is that nowhere in the GameRanger terms of service does it say that he has to provide support for every voice chat software out there (whether explicitly qutting NetFone is 'not supporting', one might argue..). He says that he doesn't have to be expected to have GR work with all software out there, but it's just something he says when someone asks "isn't that wrong?"

Oh, and I found another, more simple way to bypass the anti-NF thing. Message me if you want to know.

Cant you just play in window mode and quit gr then launch netfone? Or better yet for all you panther users, just tab out and quit gr then launch netfone.  8)

IT'S NOT GONNA BE A WORKAROUND NOW THAT YOU TOLD EVERYONE


delete the thread!!

@Voodoo: the latest versions of GhR and GR force fullscreen mode, and alt-tabbing screws up GhR very badly.

@Colin: uh, as I said before, Evill already knows about these. Even before I posted this, he had thought of pretty much every way possible to work around it, and even told me that he could see "several ways to get around it". Besides, I'm told that most people figured out my first method on their own (not including Evill, right?).

I think its really rotten to sack another application (unless its the adware in kazaa).


http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/fastuserswitching/
a hint to help you all on your quest

rgr  8)

I was looking at who was on the forum down at hte bottom of the main forum page and I just happened to see Scott_kevill down at the bottom, Lets hope that he didn't see this post.

Guys, Evill was aware of the exploits straight from the start. You open NF as another user. There. It's said. So what you going to do about it, Evill? Nothing. It'd be to much work for him to "correct" this. I don't support Evill's blocking NF, but perhaps this should act as a wake up call for those of you who still haven't paid?

correct me if i'm wrong but didn't evill say he was only going to be shutting down non registered netphone users in game?

i may have just dreamed that up though so i'm not totaly sure

nope, even registered NF users are blocked... premiums are the only ones who are allowed to use NF.

typhy is right, though

well even though you r running it as a diff user it still shows up in the trminal program that you r running it so it is still possible to sut it down

It seems to me that "not supporting" and "writing code to deliberately disable" are two different things.

It seems so tasty.

This is terrible. The last straw.

Sure, Evill may want/need a bit of extra cash, but blatantly blackmailing users into purchasing your product and supporting your corrupt monopoly is just fucked.

I'm sure as soon as Evill comes along to read this, he'll do a bit of perma-banning, and I'm all for it. I'm so sick of this shit that i'll make it easy for him.

Sir Evill, here are my GameRanger details should you feel that you need to be a corrupt twat :

Name : [OZ] Jedda
GR ID : 96456
Premium Status : I Think Not

Go nuts you corrupt prick.

Out. - J

guys one thing......

evill has to do these things to keep GR going, and mb a bit of profit thrown in.. who knows? i dont..... how much does it cost to run GR hell its not even my business to know that... its like asking a person what they earn each year somethings you are just not meant to know.

ok its pissing u guys off... but when u was younger i had to without things. like going to the pictures when all my mates did and my parents couldnt afford to let me go... (didnt have a forum back then to go on about it).

what u rather it be GR or no GR.?

just my opinion :o :-X

No privacy rights are being broken. You have no rights on GameRanger. Absolutely no rights. Especially not you non-premiums. I think it is great that Evill turns netfone off. I think it is pathetic that you can come to GR without paying. Get a life. If you can't afford premium, neither can you afford your games. Those who say they can't afford it should all be banned for piracy!

AFAIK evill has never banned someone for something they have said on the damn forums

Typhy,

Do you really think GR is worth 50 bucks A YEAR ? in my opinion, never.

Acri this is bullshit - before I didnt work (pupil) I could only spend arround 50 $ a yaer for a game - so I bought only one game a year - some times only 1 on two years.

But when I have only 50 bugs to spend - what do u think I do? I spend It for GR , and having no game to play on GR, or i spend it for a game, where I can play offline,too.

This bullshit about Premium is axactly that what I though that would happen - those who payed startes to think that they are something better. Boys  STFU

And the rights own NF are broken - B/C evill impliment Code that that disables NF, when GR starts, and that is not legal - that one software closes an other just to prevent using it.

An example - It would also be illegal when Apples Mail would prevent the use of Microsofts Entourage - when it starts. Just b/c it is also a mail program.

     Wrong. It is possible to see other users' processes, yes. It is not possible to shut them down without either an admin password or the root password, however. Guess what GameRanger doesn't have? That's right, those passwords. Process ownership is one of the fundamental parts of Unix, and it ensures (along with file/directory ownership) that a user can only screw up stuff that belongs to them. It takes an admin to screw up the whole system, and the assumption is that admins know enough not to do that.

Do you really think it is worth it for him to keep up GR if he gets no profit? He pays for the server and provides you with a place to play games in a close community. I'm not saying I agree with this whole nf thing but look at it from his side. I damn well know if I owned GR and it was pulling me into debt I would drop it.

Have you ever heard the expression "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"?

Look into it.

Absolutely, Bob.

Let's take a look at just the apps in my dock - Photoshop 7.0, which I bought. Several hundered bucks.

Unreal Tournament 2003, Medal of Honor: Spearhead, Medal of honor: Allied Assault, Return to Castle Wolfensitein, Soldier of Fortune II, and a beta to a game that many of you will soon pay 50 bucks for.

Point is, you play GHR, RvS, RS, R6, MOH:AA, SOF2 - anything through GR - then GR is playing a big roll in your gaming life.

50 bucks. We're talking one game, if you value your multiplayer experience, then you owe some cash to Evill.

Evill said, yesterday, something along the lines of "There are 2 options, 1, I can do things to encourage people to buy premium, or 2, I shut down GameRanger," which do you choose? Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with Evill doing some really nasty things to non premium members - he could make a timer - 180 seconds to open GR unless you've paid - if you delete your preffs, you lose your buddy list. Mean? Yes, but it'd encourage people to pay.

Personally, I don't like the NF block. My opinion - he should do things to make GR unfriendly to the non premium members, but he shouldn't block other apps. If he's going to block NF, hell, why not be a real pain in the ass and make GR quit all other apps?

NF Block=Microsoft on Mac

Sure you say 50 bucks isn't all that much, but when you think about it yes, it is.

You buy yourself a *DECENT* computer usually 1500-2000 then you probably want a nice selection of game.... 8 games...$400 dollars, decent internet connection lets say ($35 a month) $420...Well no one uses a crapy apple mouse for gaming so lets say a 30 buck mouse...Speakers, cheap.... 40 bucks...

So just the basics are about.... for a $1750 computer you spend $890 more for stuff without premium, then you go up to 940 w/premium, hmm then NF costs 15 so 955...

NF is a paid product; I was about to buy it when this came up. Now I probably won't. This is damaging Haxial a lot. Their little business will probably suffer even more now that Scott has banned possibly their main product.

Scott is morally wrong to do this. Sure banning links and chats and all that stuff is only affecting GR, but to go out and damage another company out of greed is unjust. I have no problem with him adding new feature, as long as I cans till play games I'll be fine, but this isn't fair. There should be laws about intentionally disabling a application you didn't create.

This is bullshit.

I think GameRanger and Haxial should have a "code-off." (http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/armed/boxing_smiley.gif)

They each write coding into their program, trying to force quit the other one.

Start up gameranger, netfone quits, or startup netfone, gameranger quits.

WHO IS THE ?BER CODER!?

(http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/armed/one_samuria.gif) (http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/armed/Tomcat.gif)

So your saying it's ok for Evill to pay for all of this plus a server you use regularly and not ask for $50 dollars from you????

Well, i'm still ok with paying a one-time fee, 50$ to GR, wich is more than enough if you consider GR as a convenient way to join others players in your favorite game.

Just a thought: what about direct IP joining ?
A server would advertise an IP on GR or any other website and people would join directly to this IP from Ghost Recon, after shuting down GR and starting NF.

Show me where it says it is illegal to quit other applications? I have a very hard time believing that it is. What if Evill does this:

By using this application you agree to not using Netfone unless you are premium

He could add that to his terms

A lot of apps kill other apps. Sure, Evill's app has an evil motive to it, but its the same thing.

A one time payment to GR would not work. Evill has to pay for the servers and badwith every year he wouldn't survive on a one off payment. Its like iTools used to be free but Apple couldn't afford to keep it running so they had to make people pay for it. Atleast Evill still lets you use the service without paying, he could easily have made it so you had to pay.

If you think Gameranger is a service you can live without then try finding a GhR game without Gameranger.

So where did you come up for the $25 for netfone?


Wrong.  It is not illegal for one program to stop another from working at the same time.  GR isn't an OS (like Microsuck), so it's a completely different issue.  NetFone still works, just not at the same time as you are in a game of GR.  So all you anti-trust boys should, in your own works, STFU.

As for not paying $50 for a year, do you guys ever go to the movies?  If so, you probably spend about $8 for 90 minutes on average.  That's about 6 movies a year, with no popcorn, for the same price.  So, you'd pay it for 9 hours worth of movie watching, but not for unlimited time on GR.  

I think Evill should just make it premium only, if only to stop all the bitching about premium.

I think it fell under unfair business practices for Microsoft when they made Netscape screw up when IE was installed as well... and they got their balls busted by the gov't, back in the days when the gov't actually cared about this kinda stuff.

It's already in the terms. It says that 'by using this software, you acknowledge that GameRanger is not compatible with all voice communications software.' That lets him say that NF is incompatible with GameRanger.

Which apps kill other apps made by competing vendors? The last time I heard about it was with Microsoft and Netscape.

[EDIT: heh, apparently Bucc made a post right as I was posting mine. Point taken]

Bluefire, understand that there are a few differences.

1) Microsuck claimed that you couldn't uninstall IE, that it was built into the OS.
2) Microsuck was also the OS, and they were using that leverage, which the government thought was unfair because there wasn't enough choice in OS.
3) NetFone still works, just not with GR.  You can use NF any other time.

does anyone actually know how much evill pays for bandwidth each month? people use the assertion that he pays a kings ransom each month for bandwidth, id like to find out what the ball park is.

Why is hazard defending evill? There are more ways of getting money then for charging us to use apps that we might have paid for. What a whore evill is. Why dont u GR guys just not use GR to war and just exchange IP's for servers and then join up?

I'm not defending him, I for one am against the NF banning but I am just trying to show both sides of the story.

I don't know how much Evill is paying, but I know that a typical server farm charges about $300-$500 per month for the server itself, which gets you like 10GB of data transfer a month, add another $10-$20 per GB of data transferred each month.

That's typical, GR isn't.  GR's servers have a high bandwidth that's burstable (say it's normally T3 speeds at 44MB/s, under heavy load it can increase to OC3 speeds of 155MB/s or OC12 speeds of 622MB/s).  With hosts like that, you get charged a premium depending on bandwidth per hour.  

These speeds don't come cheap.  Figure a T3 costs anywhere from $5000/month to $30000/month.  OC3 comes in at $20000/month to $60000/month.  

It's kinda like your cell phones.  You sign up for a plan of so many minutes (so much bandwidth/hour in this case) and if you go over, you pay through the nose.  

So, I'd be surprised if Evill wasn't spending more then $750 - $1000 per month, and it could be much higher (I don't know what bandwidth he actually uses).  It could easily go as high as $3000-$5000 a month.  All depends on how busy GR is, how many people download updates at once, etc.

Now this isn't counting his own internet connection, or hosting the GR web site.  Those are both extra.  

And it doesn't say anything about the time he himself puts into it.  Both slinging code to make it work, and being the babysitter-in-chief.  That time is worth a bucket full of cash if he was working for someone else, so he earns it (if he ever sees it).

     Because GR is good enough to use, therefore it is good enough to support. Besides which, as a wannabe developer, I appreciate the amount of work Evill has put into GR over the years, and what a good job he's done from a technical standpoint. Besides which again, I happen to like Evill personally. I'm plenty willing to spend $50 per year to a) pay for an app I've used for thousands of hours, b) support a hardworking and skillful developer, and c) help remove a little of the financial burden from a guy I like.

     $50 is an entirely reasonable price for any service that you use as much as most of us here use it. As has been stated, Evill could have been a total hardass and closed GR to nonpaying users. But the leeches are still allowed to use it, albeit with some handicaps. So quitcher bitchin' and ante up if you want to have a right to complain.

Spoken like someone that doesn't pay for his own meals yet.

After years of pouring time and money into GR, what in the hell is wrong with him wanting to make money from it?  It's not being a whore.


Because, there's something very very nice about leaving GR running in the background while I'm doing work, being contacted by a few buddies to play a game when they are on.

I've come from the PC side, and let me tell you, GR is a community that they just don't have.  There are some small communities, that collect around a web site, or a specific game.  But there's not a great place to hook up with this large of a group, with so many games across the board.  

It's a hell of a lot easier to meet on GR then it is on AIM or any other substitute.  

Yes, if GR went away, it's basic function could be replaced.  Everyone could meet up on MaG or even a KDX server.  If you could get the word out to enough people.  But it would be an ever shrinking community.  And without all the other perks of GR.

Things fair (or right) about evill banning nf for non-premiums:
It helps pay for an app we all love and NEED!!!!!!

I have no problem with that. I just happen to have no money for that either. I'm a student. $50 bucks is goin' to food, a good time, saving for college, my girlfriend, a new Mac (G3 is old!!!) a new game maybe, and then somewhere under all that is GR. I understand it's important but to me other things are more important.

Things that are unfair (or morally wrong) about banning nf for non-premiums:
It's bad for PR and business. It alienates users.
It's not the problem!!! It's a solution to his money woes but it's not the source of them!
He has targeted Haxial. IT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL TO CHARGE FOR THE RIGHT TO USE ANOTHER DEVELOPERS SOFTWARE!!! What if I used NF for my business?

Maybe he'll reconsider (Unlikely) and realize that NF isn't the problem!!! It never was. People don't use the ingame chat because it barely works!!! Most people I talk to have intermittent delivery of their chat's. Just not acceptable.

Colin, if you used NF for business, why would you be playing a game on GR at the same time? That's the only time when NF is restricted.

Guys, you're missing hte point of what's wrong with this. It doesn't matter if for some stupid reason he could legally get away with this (Windows to Mac isn't the same) the point is he is doing this without thinking about Haxial.

For me GR premium would cost about 85 dolalrs Canadian
(which GR currently doesn't have a method for Canadians to pay...err easy way)

And Netfone roughly 35 dollars (both based on .75 exchange rate)

Which I could afford but the turn off is 80+ dollars per year to get to use a 35 dollar application.

Hazard, we're not forcing him to do GameRanger, no one ever did. He obviously can pay the money, the advertisements could cover the costs alone. I'm not angry that the guy offers a 50 dollar service, I'm angry that he forces it like this.

Buccaneer you 3rd point wasn't valid, you could run netscape on a PC running linux, just not when windows in running.

There is a big difference between no supporting something and, as Evill has done, blocking a application. This isn't Premium vs Non-Premium, this is just a issue of fairness and morals. NetFone is a promising application. This seems like a good way to kill it.

1) NetFone isn't marketed as a game chat system.
2) I'd bet a month's pay that the vast majority of people that use NetFone on GR have not paid for it.  I've seen whole clans share a single sn, plus I've seen how many people have to wait for it to stop nagging.
3) Yes, he should think of himself before another company.


1) Credit cards will do the conversion for you, at that day's conversion rate.  So it is easy.
2) Go back to school and learn your math.  Based on a .75 exchange rate, GR would cost you $67 canooks, not 85.  Way to inflate the numbers to fit your outrage.


And you are basing that on what?  Where did you get this fact??


So you'd be happier if he just closed GameRanger down?


GR isn't an operating system.  NF wasn't made to work with GR.  The point stands.


What makes you think that NetFone sales are based at all on GameRanger?  And when TeamSpeak or Ventrilo come out for the Mac, are they just as evil?

Give it up.  You wouldn't have GameRanger without Evill's generosity so far.  He's not asking for too much, so just quit the whining already.  

How much Evill loses on GR shouldn't be what we're talking about. Someone with Evill's programing skills could go out and get a high paying job with ease. Instead, he devotes tons of time to doing what? Making something that even people who've been taking advantage of for years refuse to pay for?

Colin, in regards to in game chat - how is that relevant? Us premium members - the only people who could use in game chat - can use NF, so that point is invalid. The only change is that non premiumers can't use NF, nor could they ever use GR's in game VC.

It doesn't matter how much Evill asks for premium. Most of the people who are willing to pay have paid. Those of you who refuse to pay would do the same if it were 25 bucks, it's not the price, it's an unwillingness to pay for something that you think should be free.

Personally, I could care less what Evill's costs are for GR; the point is, that he's losing money. Even if he were making money off GR, it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask people to pay - if he took the amount of work he's put into GR and put it into something else, he'd be making a fuck load of a lot more.

That's what I'm trying to say. Put yourself in his shoes for two seconds. Most of you would have given in sooner.

But you know what it boils down to? His app, his choice, and there is not a fucking thing you can do about it. May be unfair, may be morally wrong but you can't do shit.

Hazard

I hate these type of posts but it needs to be done:


Thats BS bucc, what does how it's marketed have anything to do with this? GameRanger wasn't marketed for chatting..."owned." You can't use a single serial number, 1 person uses the number and haxial shuts it down. There is no way what you said is possible. Why should he do that? Haxial is a very small company with probably less sales than GR premium. Then again he is Evill...


Well first off thanks for the tip I'll try that. Well when I type 50 * .75 I get 37.5 and hmmm, 37.5 + 50 = 87.5 so it would appear I went lower (50 * 1.75=87.5). Way to deflate the number out of rage.


Well based on what you said abotu the cost of GR and the fact that almost every mac gamer uses it, I figure advertisers must pay a fair bit. Given it is based on common sense (you may not have that). I would rather see 4 banner ads than see NF blocked.


My statement in no way implied that. I said he could offer this service in a less forceful way.


What are you talking about? That had no relivant points. NF wasn't made to not work with GR, it obviously did before this so thats irrelevant. My point stands because GR is forcing it, not unintentionally having problems.


I know alot of people use netfone and buy it for use with games. It's only fair to conclude this will damage NFs sales. I don't think that would be evil, those are 2 applications witht he same purpose. Voice chat isn't GameRangers main purpose. If it was it wouldn't be premium only. Another lame at best comment.


I say good for him, he did a greta job. But, I ask, why is it his place to willingly damage another company?

NF serials can be reused. There is one serial that pretty much has made it's way around GR.

Typhy, well said.

Myst, grow up.


Yes, you can.  People do.  I can even name a few (but I wont).  And haxial doesn't shut down serial numbers, because it doesn't have any spyware to tell it.


And you base that bullshit on what?


LMAO.  Nice math skills.  And people bitch about our education system?

Where in the world did you learn that formula for converting money?  This may be a little too difficult for you, but you just divide 50 by .75 to do the conversion.  You can even check the conversion rates online.  Today $50USD is equal to $65CAD.  Here's the link: http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic


First, don't forget about how many months there was no advertiser on GR.  Second, no, the ad rates for GR are very reasonable (I asked Scott what they were, as we were thinking of advertising).  


The only thing lame is your lack of understanding.

Voice Chat is a SELLING POINT of GR.  That's the whole point of it being premium only.  You seem to have a hard time understanding that.  

I'll cover the damaging of NF sales next.


1) Any company that markets a product that has the same features is willing out to damage the other companies sales.
2) NetFone still works with GR, if you pay for premium.  So if you prefer NetFone to GR chat, you still get it.
3) You are missing the point (as usual for you) that in game chat is a feature, one that he has decided will only work for premium users of HIS service.  

That means if you want to voice chat in games you can either pay for premium or not use HIS service.  

So, go use netfone, just not on GameRanger, if that's the way you feel about it.  Or pay up.  

But in either case, go back and take remedial math.

Colin, as stated before.  NetFone works for premium users in games still.  Also, more to the point, for non-premiums, NetFone still works until you launch a game.  So as long as you aren't playing a game, NF works for you too.  Even if GR is on.  So if you used it for your business, or calling your aunt Sally, it still works.

What really needs to be separated is the difference between not SUPPORTING an app, and deliberatly killing it.

If Scott's app wasn't in the same business realm, or didn't offer the same services (voice chat) as NF, it might be a different story, but this is blatant killing off of the competition.

Last time i checked, using someone elses app as a "selling point" of your product without their knowledge wasn't cricket, and wasnt looked upon well by the legal system.

Evill's feature crush (instead of expansion) reminds me of a recent situation involving Apple introducing iTunes for Windows.

At the keynote, Steve talked about MusicMatch, the program that was previously bundled with iPods for Windows.

Similar to what Evill appears to be doing here, MusicMatch tried to persuade users to buy THEIR premium service by CUTTING features already available, instead of adding them.

(burn speeds reduced after 5 burns, mp3 encoding reduced after 5 encs.)

I have never done a major in Business or Economics, but im pretty sure that the way to enhance a user base is NOT to cut features to non subscibers. I am sure that Evill is a hard working and dedicated guy, but if he wants to persuade the average Joe or Jill into buying his product he shoulod be adding features, not diminishing them.

Sure, some of the more hardcore GR users will understand Evill's prediciment and BUY BUY BUY, but other users are looking for true value, and killing other apps is not viewed as valuable.

Please Evill, don't diminish the intelligences of your user base by telling them that:

'due to some unfortunate new coding clashes, NF is and will not be supported by future versions of GR'

'if you buy premium however, i might be inclined to fix the problem" just doesnt make sense.

If your service was more stable (ie, i wasnt afraid of giving you my cash and you shutting it down tommorow) and you didnt try to monopolise the market by being a sneaky prick, you would have my money, but until you can prove that you are offering a service ON TOP of GR and not 'the features that we previously had', you simply wont.

- J

It's not killing it, NF still works.  It's just not working with it.


Spelled BUSINESS.  


It's not killing it, NF still works.  It's just not working with it.


The way some here are saying it, Haxial is doing just that, using the GameRanger app as a selling point.  

But it's all rubbish.  GameRanger users are not the bulk of Haxial's customer base.  Especially since their apps work on Windoze too.  So they are not killing off, or screwing up Haxial in any great way.



Actually, giving something away for free, then making it a pay service is a long standing and successful business model.  It's worked for much of recorded history.

You also miss out on P&L.  He's been in L, he needs to be in P.  Marketing and bad PR is something you can get over, but if you are continuing to lose money, that's something that you eventually can't get over.


Want to see the value in GR.  Try to game without it for a month.  Then tell me it's not worth it.  The voice chat is one feature in the whole app.


Jedda, you miss the whole point.  You, and many others here are acting like you deserve the old free GR for free always.  You think that just because it was free, it should stay free.  Give me one good reason for that?

Like I said, giving something away to drive demand, then charging for it later is a solid business model (and I have gone to business school).  It's not evil, it's making a buck.

1. Jedda is right on the point, and it hurts.

Not at all Bucc.

I'm simply saying that if Evill wants to kill off the competion in a bitchy manner, he won't be getting my money. I'm not including anybody else in my argument.

I just think that hacking into the processes of my mac just to promote my purchasing off his product is unethical and immature.

When Microsoft did this to Netscape, they got in shit. Why is Evill exempt?

2. Don't insult our intelligences.


What a load. Please don't think that Evill will get away with saying NF simply isn't supported any more.

If it used to work, why will it now not?

I'll tell you why:

People say - "Why get GR premium? We have NF, and iv'e heard that Evill's solution for voice chat is slightly behind technologically speaking (ie, no chat before game, ect.)"

Shit, I know I did.

Perhaps Evill says - "Wow, i'll block it and all my problems will be solved."
(note the perhaps to stop me getting myself in quote-rebuttal trouble)

I'd really ike to get premium, but not when there is blatant, unsound business crud going on under the table.

I think my main point, addressed squarely at the man himself, is -

"If you take away features, I really think the average GR user will leave. If you want more premium users, find another way, because I can really see this heading towards premium only, which will only consist of some of the GhR community. I really don't think i'd be prepared to pay for such a service, which some of my friends and clanmates couldn't (or wouldnt) afford.

If premium was cheaper, i'd buy it, because as a student, with no real income, i'd be really struggling to afford 80 AUD a year on a gaming service, and don't give me shit about buying heaps of games and not caring about GR, because I only own 2."

Peace out - J

All i have to say is that simular gaming servises also charge $50 usd and they offer alot less.. no personal messaging or even chatting outside of games... and now you r prob saying that these gaming services wont go anywhere.. well.. these servisces are xbox live and playstaion online.. and they r thriving.. now If most peeps (under 18) can convence there parents to but these services or even all the older (over 18) can afford this.. they I dont see why soo many r bitching about having to pay to use a services that everyone else on other systems pay to use. Heh if you dont want o pay for GR.. start your own gaming services will all the fetures of GR and see how long you can go w/ out tring to get peeps to pay what every one else in the industry is charging. ..........[steps down off the soapbox and waits for the next person] thx.. Lee

Ok, here are my thoughts about it:

- If the Netfone in Game means so much to you > Go premium > Why? Because if you need Netfone you prolly spend more then 5 hours a week on Gameranger. 5x52 > 260 hours a year. 50/260 = 0,2$/hour
You can't even get something to eat for that.
Or look at it this way: you go to an amusement park, you play one game on an arcade = 1$ or more for 5 maybe 10 min. of fun.
Gameranger 5 hrs/week = 1$ + all the new ppl you meet. It actually doesn't matter how much hours you play a week, it still stays at +/- 1$ a week, is that so much?!? NOT!

- In the future we won't even need netfone anymore, Gameranger voice com. will be much better then Netfone > no extra bandwith, no searchin IP's, no adjusting ppl's volume... And VOX will be integrated soon! So why complain? If netfone interupts Gameranger Voco why isn't he allowed to shut it down?

- Gameranger isn't Killing netfone: why would we pay for an app we don't get any support from and don't pay for an app which optimizes constantly to follow up on our requests? Netfone is made for Mac and Windows like bucc says, we are the minority, and most of the guys don't even pay for netfone, so why the hell would they give us any support? They don't care! Evill does care, he puts in the voco to give us some extra. And like I stated before if you care so much about using netfone in Games, go premium! Gameranger VOCO will be much better then netfone.

Well I guess more and more ppl want to get stuff for free, but don't want to work for free. Well it aint going to work that way! So dream on!

Evill Great Job! Tnx for all the time you spend coding while others only complain and bitch!

Cya,
th.Sent

...One more thing: stop saying its unfair of Evill to block another program inside a game that is served on his server. Its like saying its unfair you just bought a Pepsi Cola instead of a Coca Cola, you're being unfair to Coca Cola because you bought the Pepsi... Maybe Coca Cola should accuse you...  OMG BS!

I think this is obvious... those who refuse to pay for premium are ungrateful assholes. Those who say they can't should be happy with using what they have.

Remember:
No one is forcing you to use netfone either, dimwits.

GameRanger > Netfone

Buy premium or get lost suckers! I am buying my FOURTH premium account to tonight.

Yeah, I agree 100% with Acri. Unfortunately, I'm one of the poor leaches who can't afford premium at the moment. Haven't bought ANYTHING for myself in over a year, other than a CD or two. I hate my life lol.

nf hasn't even been on gr for a year yet. and if evill needs to improve his profits than he can do whatever the hell he wants. if you don't like it buy a pc. i'm a chef in a hotel and i switch produce companies whenever the hell i feel like it (usually when one company fucks up an order of fucks with my prices). the company that doesnt get my daily $1200-$5000 can kiss my ass. and they know it. it isn't about putting them out of business. it's about keeping mine running. this is scott's job, his life. i have a premium account and don't even get all the nice new features everybody else gets. he also seems to have gone far out of his way to cater to all the ghr players. thank him for it. if you don't think $50 is worth it or that evill is playin bill gates, then open your gr folder and look at the new features text. i opened mine yesterday for the first ime in almost 2 years. scott has put much more than $50 worth of fun into all of our lives. i don't use netphone, play ghr, or get the new voice chat, hell i can't even see all those nice new palletes everybody keeps playin with (all i see is question marks). but the man has bills to pay (and he looks a little skinny anyway). i'm not up on aussie rates but from what bucc said he may pay to keep gr up, it's comparable to an apartment in nyc. think about that kids. evill pays as much for gr as your parents do for their house. how he's done it without our support for this long is impressive and worthy of many thanks.

Wow, the stupid around here is thick enough to cut.  Whiney assholes need to stop bitching and go hit up their mammy for $50.

rather crudely put, but sadly true

 you guys are bitching about evill removing features but since when was netfone a GR feature?
i'd say more but it seams that everyone else has covered most of the other points
and as a final note... if it weren't for evill and GR in the first place, *DAMN wouldn't exist nor would these forums or the BL

some people just need to know when to bite their tounge...

The problem with this whole thing is that evill estenially has a monopoly on the market. people have said this again and again and again. Where would you go if Gameranger either, a. went completely premium, and you being a student with nothing to your name but the stuff in your parents house can't afford it, or b. it shuts down completely.
the fact is, evill can do what ever the fuck he wants, because we are all so dependent on GR. compitition is a good thing, it drives down prices and forces competing business's to add more features and be more user friendly. Except for the fact that, again, there is not compitition.
now, lets think about options a and b. option a, gameranger goes entirely premium. chances are, most people will stay(those who have already bought a membership, those who value it enough to buy one) but the chances are also good that some kid out there, with some level of programming skills and some extra cash will make a new app, to use for free. attracting the gamers who dont want to pay, and creating compitition for GR. which evill wouldnt like.
b. gr shuts down. again, some kids gonna make an app, but it wont be near as good as gr. and the mac gaming community will be in the dark.
having typed this whole p.o.s i can really only see one feasible solution: if you value GR, buy premium. cause evills got a stranglehold on the market and there aint much else we can do.




acri, you've spent two hundred dollars on GR?! my god...

Spike, if you want to compare GameRanger to a monopoly you actually have to think Evill's making money out of this. A monopoly means you are the only offering the service or any services similar... this is not entirely true. GameRanger is just the best. He SHOULD make it a pay service. It wouldn't be MEAN of him to make it premium only, it is rather NICE of him that he allows leechers.

thats true, i just couldnt think of another way to describe it

OK, the 2 cents from the non-premium

First off, those of you like acri who proclaim all non-premiums are assholes only shows how incompetant you are. Acri, most people on GR don't have Premium, does that make them all assholes?

Another thing, Evill can do whatever he wants with GR. Taking NF can be done "legally" but i don't believe it is moral. - It is almost forcing, rather than provoking people into Premium.

Taking NF off GR will make anyone mad/frustrated because it is taking, not giving options. No one will enjoy this restriction; some pompous premium bastards will; and many current Premiums dont care anyway.

Look at is this way: A man sees his neighbor's dog walking thru his property and shoots it, for no reason other than being a jerk. This is perfectly legal, as the dog was on his property; nevertheless it is very unmoral, making the guy a total asshole.

I believe this is relevant to what Evill is doing. By restricting options for money is essentially greed, and it isn't for the betterment of the Mac Gaming community; it is for the betterment of Scott Kevill.

Your first problem is that you're expecting altruism from business. We're lucky to have gotten all that we had up until this point. Evill's just playing the game the way all the other software companies do, and its not fair to hold him to a higher standard just because he was soft before and we know him.

Tasty, well said, but omit software.  It happens in almost all business (even some non-profits that aren't)

As for Baz


All? ok, no.  Most, hell yeah.  Ever spend much time in the construct?


I think the word you were looking for is "enticing", not provoking.  He is provoking.  I just happen to think that's an alright thing to do.  And it's certainly moral.  


Where the hell do you live that that is legal?  

And Evill isn't killing your dog, he's restricting your access.  It would be like the old lady that lives on the corner, who's lawn you always cut across on your way to school.  One day, sick of paying to re-sod the path you and your buddies have worn through her lawn, she puts up a fence.  Now, she says you can use the gate and cut through, as long as you pay a nickle each time, so she can afford to keep her lawn up, or you can go around (or, you can jump the fence, which is the getting around that started this thread).  There would be nothing immoral about her putting up the fence and asking for a reasonable fee for cutting across her lawn.  You may not like it, but it isn't immoral.

Yes, I am the king of analogies.  


1) why the hell shouldn't Scott Kevill work for the betterment of Scott Kevill?
2) It is also for the betterment of the mac gaming community.  Which do you think is better: Evill adding features to premium and taking them away from free loaders OR Evill declaring bankruptcy and closing down GR?  Come on, which is better for the mac gaming community?

OK OK, I know you have all been thinking, "Where is Nomad, we need his infinite wisdom here"  well here goes my 2?.

First, you all should know that I am not a premium member nor do I own NF.  Having said that, my stand on this is that Evill should have the right to do WHATEVER he wants, it is his business, is it not?  

Now whether he is doing this b/c he's a clever business man or not is irrelevant, here is a guy who provided a service to people who are Mac users (and alot of people I might add) for free.  And now whether he decided to start charging people to make a surplus in his profit margin or b/c he has to b/c he's losing money, again, is irrelevant.  Its not immoral.  Its business, plain and simple.  If you're someone who thinks that he's being a Bill Gates and you do not like it, leave.  No one is forcing you to stay, only to pay!!  ;D (if you want to have what you had before).  

Its like people that complain about how FPS video games or violence on TV perpetuates violence in our youth or violent crimes in our community, well I say to that, "bbbbbbbbb bs!!  If you don't like it, don't buy it, if you think porn is offence or that movie is violent, grab the damn converter and shut the TV off!!"

(see bucc I can make analogies too  ;D, of course, they're not as creative as yours)

So if you don't want to pay for a premium member status, don't!!  But if Scott decided one day to cut non-premium members off one day, don't bitch and complain, b/c its not immoral, its business.  But having been around GR for quite sometime, I don't think Scott would be the type where he would cut people off without warning, he would most likely give non-premium members time.

Guess what?  Some of those people would be me!!  Now, why haven't I bought premium membership yet?  Simply put, I don't have a new mac yet.  I am presently looking into buying a new G5 with my brother and then I believe it will be worth the cost, with what features premium status provides.  I have Spearhead and Ghost Recon sitting on my shelves, bought when they came out in stores and I havent been able to play them b/c this mac is too old, so why would I go and spend $50 (or in my case, $65 here in Canada) if I wouldn't be able to enjoy premium with all those great games at their full potential.

Now, having said that, lets say that I have intentions to purchase my new mac for August, 2004 and Scott decides to cut off GR to all non-premium members immediately, which means me included, then I would have to then make a decision.  Buy premium now or have no GR for a few months.  Would this make me sad or disappoint me, of course, b/c I think GR is great, but would I think of Scott as an SOB for doing so, of course not!! Why?  that's right, b/c its business.

Do I believe those people that say "you can't have everything in life"  absolutely not!  It just takes time, and with time comes patience and sacrifice, which unfortunately I can see that alot of non-premium GR members do not have.

I'm currently researching Australian law, but GameRanger Technologies (the company) is borderlining some laws there. It clearly has a monopoly in the Macintosh market, and is using its monopoly to commit unfair business practices. A relevant link regarding Microsoft:

http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,6827248%5e15319%5e%5enbv%5e15306,00.html

More resources regarding australian law will be added here in the future.

As for Bucc,


Anyone who thinks the majority of GR users have Premium is incompetant as snipey. IF most users had it, Evill would be a freakin millionaire.



MORAL?! WTF. Ok, this restriction doesn't benefit ANYONE (except himself). You are defending it, being a premium; but nevertheless this is making people mad AND creating more of a GR-centered monopoly. He doesn't want to compete with NF and therefore blocks it out, JUST like MS does. This isn't moral because it's not for the betterment of the community. If you're going to say...
Closing NF isn't a huge matter in the life/death of GR. Evill got along fine even when everything was free; i can see why he is charging for some things now (i would); but beginning to be a eccentric monopolistic jackass is just pissing people off - which is why it is unmoral.

I sent this email to the ACLU (Australian Civil Liberties Union):

To Whom It May Concern,
               I am contacting you on behalf of many users of Macintosh computers around the world. We are forced to use an application called 'GameRanger' to meet and play computer games with other individuals around the world. However, recently GameRanger Technologies has implemented a feature that they claim is an "anti-cheat measure" for a game called Ghost Recon, the most popular game on GameRanger. In actuality, it prevents users from using a third-party voice communication application called "NetFone" made by Haxial Software. By doing this, GameRanger Technologies forces us to pay $50 per year to get "Premium" access to the GameRanger service and use their proprietary voice communication software. We believe this violates our rights as consumers, but we would like advice and information from the ACLU regarding what action we can take.
         
            - Ross Koepke
            CEO Everything Digital News

------------
Another point to note is that GR is integrated into some games like Rogue Spear, in a sense forcing us to use their software.

Jesus Christ, you guys are thick as bricks. You know how long Gameranger has been free? Stop being spoiled little shits and just drop it. If you aren't a paying customer, you have no right whatsoever to complain. You don't require Gameranger to play Ghost Recon, it just makes things simpler. It's very easy to play a NF game of GhR off of Game Ranger. Also, you don't need NetFone to play Ghost Recon, it just makes things more fun. Now, as for Ross's letter, just give it a break man. To be a "consumer", you have to actually spend money on a product in the first place. I know very few people who have actually paid for NF.
Anyways. Gameranger has been free for so long, and Mr. Kevill has poured a lot of money into it. He isn't sitting on some tropical island sipping martinis, laughing it up to the bank with the money he gets from Premium accounts. Most likely he's using the money to pay for GR, and maybe get a meal now and then. The poor guy isn't a millionaire. He's a truly wonderful person who's been giving and giving, and all we do is take and take, and we don't even thank him for it. All you fuckers do is just protest and whine and act like you have rights. You don't have rights on GameRanger, unless you're a paying customer. He's the dictator, we're the serfs. Deal with it. He's an awfully nice Dictator, too, since he's letting us live off the land for free, so to speak. If I were Scott I'd have blown my brains out by now. I honestly don't know how he tolerates this garbage. It's been going on for years. Just give the guy a fucking break. Stop whining like little girls.

My problem is that he prevents me from using my own voice communication software. He's using his position as a monopoly to squash any competition. This is an unfair business practice. His software interferes with other software I've bought. It came bundled with Rogue Spear which I bought, and possibly GhR as well. Frankly, he provides his service for free, great! Now no other company can get into his business, or even any remotely related one like Haxial tried to do with NetFone for macintosh. I'm forced to use his software to find new people to play these games with, as they don't have their own ability to do it. Even if I paid for premium, I still couldn't use NetFone, I'd have to use his communication tool. GameRanger is a monopoly, and uses its status in ways that stifle competition and hurt the consumers.

^^^^^^^^^MORON!^^^^^^^^^

moron is right
ross, no one is "forcing" you to use gameranger

     Ross, you're sorely in need of an economics lesson. First off, GR is a nonessential service. You will not die or go homeless without being able to play games through GR. So saying you are being "forced" to use GR is pure crap.

     Second, you and others need to learn what "monopoly" means. There are two things to understand here. 1) GR is a monopoly because there is no competition. 2) The lack of competition is not a result of GR being a monopoly. If Evill was buying out other Macintosh game-matching services and shutting them down, or if he was otherwise exercising his <sarcasm>massive economic power in the market</sarcasm> to keep people from using other Macintosh game-matching services, THEN the use of "monopoly" as an epithet would be justified. However, that is not the case. There's no competition, even though there are no significant barriers to entry into this market, so GR is a de facto monopoly. If you don't like that state of affairs, go code your own competing app. Then GR won't be a monopoly.

     Finally, making money is a legitimate and reasonable goal for a business. Evill has NOT been making money for years, and now he wishes to. Note the following points: 1) YOU are CHOOSING to use GameRanger. 2) You are ALLOWED to use GameRanger EVEN IF you don't pay. 3) IF YOU PAY, you receive in return UNFETTERED USE of GameRanger and NetFone, PLUS extra features. 4) IF YOU DON'T PAY, you are COSTING Evill money and giving him NOTHING in return. 5) GameRanger is a PRIVATELY-OWNED service, and as such Evill has FULL RIGHTS to do WHATEVER HE DAMN WELL PLEASES without needing ANYONE'S permission.

     In summary, shut your god damned cry-holes, you leeches.

I don't know what the law in Australia is, and I'm certainly not commenting on the morality of such a lawsuit, but it seems to follow the same type of legal case that Microsoft lost. Company restricts competition in conjunction with its own software that is the industry standard, thereby creating a monopoly. Wasn't that the same basis for the MS antitrust suit?

Uhm, Loth, I haven't used GR for over 7 months. Anyhow, GR has shut down two competitors that I know of.

"MORON! MORON! MORON!"

Seriously, could we cut the crap?

     If you don't use GR any more, why are you going to such great lengths on this issue?

     Aww, did my summary hurt your feelings and make you ignore the rest of the post? How about some responses instead of whining?

Not exactly Tasty.

Microsuck was pissed off that people were choosing to pay for Navigator over using IE for free.

Microsuck then sabotaged Navigator, so it wouldn't work correctly with Windoze.

It was found that 1) Windoze, for all intent and purposes was a monolopy, and 2) Microsuck was abusing that monolopy in order to effect the IE vs Navigator issue.

That's where the anti-trust came in.  Windoze wasn't trying to secure it's own position, it was using it's position to give leverage to another product.  

The trick is, you have to look at the products, not the company to really understand what was going on.  Treat it like 3 players, not 2.

GameRanger is only trying to help itself, not another product (it's own in voice doesn't count, because if you pay, NetFone works too).  Also, NetFone was not developed or advertised to work with GameRanger.  Netscape was made to work with Windoze.

Nice try on the flame. Please don't flame me anymore. Now onto the other responses you asked for.


Yeah ok, and when you have 3 successful businesses going simultaneously, then you can call me. I eat economy books for breakfast.


Ah yes. Just like you don't need a computer in the first place, or an operating system. Microsoft was still sued for a monopoly in a non-essential service. I'm forced to use GR as a feature of the games I buy such as Rogue Spear.


A. A company or group having exclusive control over a commercial activity. (Yep, this is GR)

B. Exclusive possession or control (Yep, this is GR)


So we first need to learn the definition presumably because we're using it the wrong way, and then in the next sentence you say that we are correct. Wow.


I refer you to GameRangers own site: http://gameranger.com/adv/
And until GameRanger Technologies publishes a public financial report, you don't know a flying fuck what GR's profit or lack thereof has been both before and after premium was instituted.

Actually I'm not using it. I just heard about this and was infuriated at his business practice, which is why I became involved.

Yes, so if Apple released a free version of Mac OS X, which you need to use a mac for the most part these days, but if you ran it, it would disable your monitor, unless it was an apple brand, would this be fair? Hell no.

This is Evill's own choice. I could be giving him money through looking at ads.


HAHAHAHAHAH!
 Wow you are so damned wrong. Just because he isn't a corporation doesn't mean he can do whatever he damn well pleases. There are many laws of regarding fair business practices in Australia, and that's what I'm researching now to see if the australian courts could find him guilty of breaking one or more of these.

And quit flaming me.
Constructive comments are welcome though.

Lothario is right
Koepke is dumb
Morons complain
Till their tounges go numb

Loyalty speaks
Through the mouths of a few
Bottom line is: Kevill
owes nothing to you

You use this service
Which is totally free
It offers a place to sit
And voice-chat (for a fee)

It is like an outdoors caf?
Where you can sit for free
But don't bring your own food
That right... was never given thee

You can eat at the tables
If you pay for the chair
You may sit for free
But honestly, is it fair?

Spend a few dollars
To have a good time
Buy yourself customer rights
Plenty of hours for a dime

It ain't really expensive
If you think for a while
It's worth every penny
And it shows good style

Koepke, your next post
The one under this
Is a big crap of bullshit
and a gallon of piss

Obviously you can't
appreciate art
And please stop trying
You were wrong from the start

That was good acri. How long did that take you?
Seriously, I liked everything but the first stanza.

Well said, acri.

Koepke, cram it. You know not what you speak. What Scott did wasn't in the best taste, but he was within his rights.

As for the rest of your brats complaining because you can't get everything for free: Pay Up or Shut Up.

Jesus Christ, you're all starting to sound like linux users.

Business number one:
Being a prostitute
Business number two:
Pimping yourself
Business three:
Cleaning up after yourself

Yeah, it's great when the only thing you can do is flame me.

Actually Business one (most profitable) is assembling and selling high-performance PC's at low prices. I undercut the average computer company by $1280.

Business two is website design and programming.

Business three is computer repair.

In the first business I have 3 employees, business two and three I run solo. I make $4,000/month on average.

And when you get your MBA from the old Maze and Blue, you can stop talking out of your ass.


1) learn more about the Microsuck anti-trust suit before talking about it.

2) you are not forced to use GR.  Not by a long shot.  The games have their own way to join built in.  GR is a value added service.


I want you to pay close attention to the word commercial there.  Evill has not screwed the paying customers, he has only limited what he gives away for free.


Yeah?  Which two?  And what was the exact threat?  That they used his code?  Without support, what you just spouted is slander.


Or, you could just ask Evill, like some have.  And he could tell you, like he has done with some.

But you ignored the point.  Evill has the right to make money.  It is the goal of most business, isn't it?  

Saying that we don't know his P&L is just a smoke screen by you.


Actually, HELL YES.  As long as Apple said "Hey, as a reward to our paying customers for purchasing our branded hardware, we are allowing you to have OS X free of charge.  This special version of OS X will only work with pure Apple systems (no third party hardware)."

As long as they disclosed it, it would be more then fair, it would be a GIFT.  Also known as an INCENTIVE.  Yes, another common business practice.


Yes, it is his choice, just as it's his choice to limit which features work for the free accounts.


Research away, problem is, you are basing your argument on false premises.  You can't fault a free service for not providing all the features it does to it's paying customers.  Or knowing limiting the features on those "demo" accounts.

so acri,

are you just some chinese haiku-writing slut? if so i despise asian porno, sorry

go get a life you incompetant, poet-wishful, moronic invertebrae

a tip: if you spend time writing GOOD poems for girls (if you know any) then u might be able to get someone who actually GIVES A SHIT about what you have to say.

FYI - It's libel, not slander. This is written.
I don't remember the names of the programs, but yes in the first one the threat was that they used his code, which was the code that was necessary to launch a game and get it to connect to a server.

Oh, right. I must have somehow forgotten that NetFone was a feature of GameRanger. My mistake.

Tis a poem about Baz
That I am writing now
With his head up his ass
He types! Wonder how...

Baz, obviously
Has gotten no clue
It is hard to see clearly
With one's head jammed in poo

Alaric, on the other hand
Understands my gift
I shake his hand
And give Baz's a twist

1) Voice Chat is a feature, netfone is one of the possible ways to do it.

2) Actually, it's both, if you know the proper definition of slander.  Slander is slan?der
Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.


 A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
So, if I were bringing suit, it would be for libel, but since I'm not Evill, to me, it's just slander, a false and malicious statement.

Thank you for taking the time to learn this.

3) You didn't answer the who's, just one why.  And that why is a perfectly acceptable reason to file a lawsuit.  His code is copyrighted.  

4) Not much in the way for supporting your case.

Tis a poem to acri
That im writing now
Sucking on a cum daquiri
While his boyfriend makes the vow

After the cocks
Acri goes to check the posts
He closes the gay porn box
It is baz! the one he loaths!

Put together another quick verse
Then back to the bedroom with the guys
To heterosexualism, he is averse!
On this day, i hope he DIES.

Did you somehow miss the "oral" or are you just ignoring it? Nothing on this forum is oral.

Maybe you fail to realize that every program that launches a game and connects it to a server has to do it nearly exactly the same way as every other app.

Bashing homosexuality
Is the method of the weak
It used by a million lamers
Even as we speak

I do not doubt
That you are a lamer too
But with double digit IQ
What are you gonna do?

The poem you wrote
Where you wished for my death
Was far less repulsive
Than your horrible breath

To help evolution
It would be a good idea
If you removed both your testicles
It keeps the gene pool clear

acri - Is it possible for you to post anything besides flames and flamebait?

1) did you somehow miss the fact that the first definition (the one using "oral") was for law, and that the second definition didn't use oral?  Those are two definitions, not one.  Use your dictionary maybe before you try to correct someone, dumbass.

2) "Nearly" being a very important word.  And there is a difference between engineering that on your own, and copying code.  

You'll notice, if you aren't a complete moron, that I didn't say that anyone was guilty of the violation, I said that a lawsuit is legit based on copyright infringement.  

3) I notice you still don't give out the who's, or mention the second case.  Is it that you don't really know, as you said you did?

4) You still can't and haven't defended your points about how it's wrong, you are just (wrongly) trying to correct my use of a word.  Weak.

Answer this: Why do you insist on flaming me?

My poetry, as should
Arouses a certain feeling
You think of it as flamebait
And shoot through the ceiling

Up into the sky, you shoot
With an amazing speed
Riding between planets
With my poem as steed

You ride far away
And from a relative point of view
I can tell, here from earth
I'm so bigger than you!

Perhaps after some distance
You find civilization
With technical advances
Like a cure for constipation

You see, cupcake
With that technique
You could prevent the shit
From showing when you speak

Acri thinks he's a sage
But infact he's insane
Whenever he speaks
The whole forums reaks
From his bad breath
Soon his death
Will bring applause
No more stupid poems
Nor homosexual trolls

Now stop posting and get a life
Keep this up
You'll never get a wife
And lead a life of strife

Go burn in hell
So the demons may sense your terrible smell

     Until you provide evidence for your claims, Ross, you're either a bullshitter or an out-and-out liar. Making an argument based on nonexistent evidence, as you have, doesn't prove anything.

Fine then, as I cannot recall the names of the groups or their applications due to the fact that the events happened a long time ago, I hereby retract any arguments made based on the companies or groups that I claimed evill threatened to sue until a later time or date when I find more information or people to verify the claims.

Gee, and what did I say?  It's false if you can't provide it.  And you haven't.  Why?  

You haven't mentioned the 2 yet, in fact, you've only given the reason for 1.

You said that you know of them, but now you are saying you have to wait.  So, do you really "know" the facts?  Or are you just repeating inuendo?  

I know what it looks like to me.

As for flaming, because you've been acting like a dumbass, as I said in my previous post.  You make these leaps in logic like the fact that it takes effort for you to do it as designed EQUALS the fact that there is no choice.  Well, that's a huge gap.  And when it's pointed out, you ignore it.  

Your arguments sure seem based off a personal bias, and not any facts.  And I have absolutely no respect for that.

Uhm, bucc, I already retracted my claims until a later time/date.....


Anyhow that aside, just because I don't have verification doesn't mean something is false. That might be "based off a personal bias", but in this country, something is only false if it is proven to be, not if someone fails to prove it true.


If you go *way* up to my original post, a letter to the Australian Civil Liberties Union, you'll see that it was a quest to get some facts. Apparently you don't have any respect for finding the facts. Are people just supposed to magically know everything?

Yeah, by about 90 seconds before I posted that.  Ever think that they crossed over?  Another example on why I flame you.


Wrong.  An accusation like that is false until proven true.  

Otherwise, I could accuse you of being a "sperm gurgling butt whore that enjoys sucking the sperm out of homosexual's assholes", and it would be true until you proved it false.  I don't think that's the America I live in.

You made the accusation, it's on you to back it up.

And if you go way up to my early response to you, you'll see I said to find the facts, that's all good, but you are basing things on false premises, so you'd still be wrong.

Your bias leads you to setting false premises.  Like ignoring the difference between commercial and free, and how it applies.  Like the effort equalling no choice.  

As long as you base things on lies like that, you can't be right.

That's why there's an edit button. You could also choose to retract your statements. By choosing not to it shows that your goal was only to attack me, which is what you've been showing all along.

I'm out until the ACLU or CCL responds, or until I find link and people who can support my claim that Evill has forced others out of his business area.


-Out-

yeah, acri definatly has pwned on this one, just stop trying baz

and ross, why the fuck do you care? you're perma'd. or is that it? you're just trying to get back at evill?

If people have to result to insults just to prove their point, they've already lost the argument.
Anyways. I think a lot of the people are misinformed. Netfone does work with GameRanger when you're a premium user. Now, that being said, what Mr. Kevill is doing is not as immoral as you think.  GameRanger doesn't erase NetFone from your computer or anything like that. It just turns it off when GameRanger is in use. I think that's very fair, because it's not forcing people to buy Premium, it's just giving them incentive. The new In-Game Voice Communication thingamabob is a big selling point for Premium now. But, why buy the cow when the milk is free? All he's doing is milking that cow, and hiding those delicious bottles of milk in the barn until you buy the cow. Once you buy Premium, you can use either the GameRanger voice communication or NetFone. No one absolutely needs NetFone while they're running GameRanger. No one absolutely needs GameRanger to arrange a multiplayer game. They're just there to make things easier.
If you think about it, Haxial is "monopolizing" GameRanger. I'll use "monopolize" because everyone seems to be throwing that word around. They're offering a cheaper, better product, for voice communication, and GameRanger is trying desperately to keep up. You can almost say they're trying to muscle him out of the market, although unintentionally. Now, isn't that the same thing a few of you were saying about GameRanger and the other Macintosh game services? I see no difference. Also, I've never heard about Scott Kevill threatening to sue some teenagers because they were making a gaming service. How about some evidence? If he was threatening to sue them, they were probably blatantly ripping off GR or using some of his source code or something. Anyways, I think I'll leave Bucc and Loth to fight the good fight. They're better at this kinda stuff than I am.

And you could have chosen to notice that they were made at the same time, and not commented on it, but you chose to be the dumbass.  I chose to point it out.

If my goal was to attack you, these wouldn't have been nearly this nice.  Not that they are nice, but they weren't as rude as you pretend either.  They could be much much worse.

And I openly answered you why I chose to flame you.  Your lace of acknowledgment and comment show me that you asked not for the answer, but to play the wounded innocent game.

So be gone then, until you can speak intelligently to your points.

Awww noooo come on don't stop!! KEEP GOING!!! this has been awesome.. I have never enjoyed reading posts on this forum till today.  

I have been glued to my seat for the last 2 hrs reading this tug-of-war.  I swear, everytime I clicked on the refresh button...PRESTO!! A NEW REPLY...I mean 3 people (Bucc, Ross & me...I'm sure others too) in this world at the SAME time have been sitting infront of their computers typing and reading on the same thread at the SAME time, WOW!!!

I kept thinking to myself, should I stay and read the next reply or go make popcorn and read with the best seat in the house...popcorn....read...popcorn...read.....

Man, was this thread intense  :D

ps. I have just reached 200 posts!!! I AM A FORUM WHORE!!!  ;D

lmao nomad, nice!

anyway, all good and bad things come to an end; plz see main gossip forum for my final remarks.

nomad looks like you'll have to go to the movies  ;D

My friend Peter once wrote a poem that I think is entirely relevant to the situation.

[/b]

I take it I won?

You came in second =P

Actually, you're a full member.

I'm a forum whore.  ;D

How many posts do you need before becoming a WHore?  what are the increments...you whore!!!  ;D