*DAMN R6 Forum

Guys I had a thought the other day.  Most everyone has played Revolt's command and conquer mod right?  Have you noticed that a team wins right when a player hits the smoke, and thus that team's score advances from 1 to 2 (it counts number of control points)?  What if we made a mod that would allow for all 5 of the smoke points, like in domination mode, but it played like c&c? You could then win by killing the enemy, or by total, camping-impossible map control. As some have suggested, make each game win worth points. One for each map location controlled at the end, and one for winning kill-wise.

Scenario 1: Team A camps at their spawn, and kills the enemies as the come in, 2 points
 Team B is wasted save for their last guy, but has 4 control points, and thus wins the match.

Scenario 2: Team A and B advance, A gets more kills, but B has 3 of the 5 locations, score is a tie at 3.

Scenario 3: Team A tries for a smoke rally, and gets 4 of the smoke locations. However, at the last smoke location is team B, and A takes casualties trying to rush the smoke. The last member of A decides to camp it out with his 4 smoke locations (for the win). All B is required to do is take one more column of smoke to tie, or two to win.  Assuming team A has a perfect sensor net, their last player (in my estimation) could resist at two locations running back and forth, unless a simultaneous assault was made on the two.

Scenario 4: Team A has bottled up B by taking 3 of 5 smoke locations and killing 2 while losing 1 their own.  At this point they camp.  Assuming a 4v4, B now has to take one location, each sure to be guarded by 1 enemy (with his buddies on call), using 2 men.  I see several options for B here: they can focus an assault on a single smoke column, and bank on slow reaction time of the enemy's buddies, or they can try their luck on two at once.  If B suceeds, more power to them!  However, if A wins (while camping) haven't they earned it?  They took the fight to the enemy, won by combat, and by territory.

Scenario 5: Team A kills all but one member of team B, after team B has taken 4 locations. They know the location of the last B, and they have a pretty good idea that he is gimped. Question: should we make the points count for just the win in each game, or for a running total in the cb?  Assuming the latter, it now encourages team A to hit the remaining smoke locations before trying to kill the last poor f%^& on team B.

Already I see something that I did not cover, what if the teams have the same number of guys (the classic tie from lms), and no one takes the last (probably the center) column of smoke. Fix it this way: make the center smoke worth more, since it will be the most contested. Two or even 3 points.  That will even eliminate most of the tie game issues I raised above.

Now since this mod would have to be made, we do have some options.  In seige, the assault team does not win automatically if the defense is killed, they must still take the smoke.  We have this choice to make (unless the code is harder than I am aware of for one way or the other).  If we do leave the game running for the victors to take all bases, then the points system as a running cb total I mentioned above becomes a much less worthy debate in my mind.  Granted, I haven't ironed out all the bugs, and you gentlemen will be sure to tear my every word to pieces as is usual of a forum, but gentlemen, this solves the reasonable complaints against warzone that have been raised The only remaining arguments against, in my mind, are those of the people who close their eyes and shout to the heavens, "don't change it," simply because they are too anal to shut up and play a better game.  See guys, all we have to do is make make map control a priority, at least equal to enemy elimination, and the camping issue is solved. It can still be performed, sure, but it is no longer advisable, unless you have already won the battle as in scenario number 4.

And while we embark upon this mission to mod Ghost Recon to reward its competitors for ground gained and enemies killed, why not consider the other thorn in my flesh about the game, and fix the kits which issue a second set of binoculars to a self-respecting soldier of the US Army. ;D

I have already had a comment raised that I do not want to have to repeat myself defeating more than once, so I place it here since that is what this is for.

The comment was made that no mod allows a lone player who has lost his teamates a fighting chance for victory.  Gentlemen, he had no better chance in LMS either.  My idea does not concern itself with a time limit as in the warzone mod, you have the full 10 mins.  Nor does that arguement have bearing.  I can't tell you how many times I told my teamates after I was shot, "kill one of them or we lose, and be quick about it."  You can't claim that the last guy should have a chance, his team was already wasted, so he deserves to lose!  How any mod can be expected to allow the last guy a fighting chance when any time limit (or the map, for another topic and time) is involved is beyond me.

The opinion was also presented that the games should be about "kill, kill, kill."  This guy, while good intentioned for gaming purposes, shows he knows nothing about combat.  Location control is the only priority in our wars, unless you count keeping your men alive.  People, if any troop leader in today's world took 50% casualties to his force, he would be treated worse than a war criminal.  It isn't done by kills anymore, you have to go back to the first world war to find that! And even then and before that they fought over places on a map, not for just killign the other guy. One more dead enemy doesn't get you squat, its taking that enemy's home, his wife, his food, his beer, and his lifelong accomplishments, teh burial ground of his fathers, and HIS MOMMA'S COOKIN that really gets you somewhere!

I beg you people to think reality, and think what people actually fight over.  If anyone acted as we do in a war setting, it would be seen as barbaric.  I don't know if i covered it, but let me change something from above: no points should be awarded for having more kills unless you kill ALL the enemies.  Leaving any to fight another day gets you no points in combat, what gets your somewhere is controlling ground and total elimination of the enemy.

US troops die in Iraq today because we had the victory my opponents call for, number of kills, instead of total ground control or total elimination. Yes that is off color, but its about time for it.

i'll have to think about this more... But i know that the C&C mod is make a whole lot better (its the one that won't allow spawn kills isnt it?).
It seems that a cb would turn into a race to get the smoke if it was only a 2v2, but i'll have to visuallize this better. I think this would show a whole lot more potential for multiclan cbs perhaps.
The only other issue is who can make this? Most of us mac users are noobs when it comes to igor, or even mod making.

Jeb, if it gets ome decent gaming around here, I will learn IGOR and use vpc to make it work.  C&C is basically two way seige, each team has smoke, and the team to hold both wins instantly, without the normal 5 secs it takes in seige.  When applied to 5 bases as I suggest, everyone would have to attack and defend and use their heads to win.  The 2 on 2 I didnt consider (nice catch), and I am thinking tht maybe a 3v3 is minimum for this to be worthwhile.

 :-[ ::)
This is the dumbest idea yet.....
Who the fuck thought of this....
Obviously only a handfull have read....
Think before you speak.....

Revolt, not afraid to try and deface a guy who is and has dedicated his clan to doing the right thing. I'm sorry if you simply can't handle someone trying to make a difference, but your childish retorts get you nowhere.

I will make my little mod, and I will play it.  And if some people cant handle the fact that I believe effort ought to be put into improving the *damn bl, well they can go breathe propane and try to light up for all I care.
(interesting mental image, eh?) :o

PLease make the mod!!  


it does really sound interesting.  But for any majority of people to understand what you're talking about, they need to play it.  

here's my initial opinion:  The adding of points at the end of each round sounds like a pain in the rear.  Would be nice if the final result was all inclusive.  winner and loser  

Hell,
i dunno what the deal with revolt is, but why not welcome inovation in games, thats what mods are for.
However I couldn't concieve of this being done before the next season (if mauti ever gets back from vacation). But its a good idea and it would be interesting to see.

Aramarth m8, i think everyone would agree that your eagerness for improvement and good changes, are always welcome. u are detailed about everything(i should know) but....Pasting that pm convo between you and Revolt is as childish as you say he is m8. If there is a gripe between you and him, it should be handled in private, not here.

But back to the mod - its a cool mod and your suggestion is a good one. i'd like to see what you do with it. we could host it on our [one] server to see if it pleases the crowd, and maybe after i Talk with Revolt, and u and him find out that your differences are as small as a little love affair and distance teenage crush for eachother and no one has deared to admit their passionate love for one another, will make a wholesome relationship that can work on a great mod together.
i'll be the first to admit that i think that Gambit is a hot piece of ass  ;)

My humble thoughts

[one] Rampage

sounds interesting but I can't say much untill I played it
would take some time before it is made maybe something for season 6

I can explain it more simply if that is what the people need.  Think seige, you know, smoke to guard or take. OK. Now think 5 smoke locations, one at each spawn, and one in the middle of the map (the hamburger location). Each column of smoke counts for a point. When your team get all 5, or 5 points, you win. I did throw many more ideas in there, like increasing the point value for the center smoke, but now you should have the basic idea.

So basically, you cant rush the center, as that is one main complaint against warzone, you have to take control of the entire map, despite the enemy's efforts to stop you. Oooh, it could really get exciting without sensors...lol

Yes I will make it, no arguements there.

Rampage: ^{_{Revolt made it public by saying much more offensive things on GR, I was just trying to show how irrational he was. Though, it should be widely known already...AHEM! I will take down the quote, because you are absolutely right.}}

Aramarth, sounds good fun, love to play the mod if it ever materialises... The more variety and game types available the more fun (i think). Go for it.

(ps. CTF is also great fun ;0)   )

After Speaking with Aramarth for great links tonight, I think these mod is a much better alternative to warzone. If you camp you lose easy as that. Many details still need to be worked out, but after talking to Some of my guys tonight, if it works out like we think it will, we would support that as an alternative to warzone. Mauti I hope you would consider this mod as you are considering the warzone mod. We are hoping to see a beta very soon. Possibly even before these season starts. Please give your ideas about the mod.

I think its a great idea ara!

Well, it looks like I have sponsorship now.  I know you guys don't understand exactly what all of my text means, from the questions fusion asked.  

So here it is, the Absolutely free ask-aramarth session! Go ahead, don't be shy. Ask me what you do not understand about the mod, and I will answer it.  

You could even email me if you don't want the public criticism this forum will provide ;) aramarth@vt.edu

make it up aramarth

sounds like a great alternative to the game

wouldnt hurt to try it out and if we all like it voila another mod others will cry about

so just make it to piss off the rest

lol

I applaud Aramarth for wanting to make a mod, but before you guys get all bent about mods being introduced into cbing check out fridge's statement.  it makes sense.

How Does This Sound?

What if we allow the lesser ranked team to choose initial game type?
Once in the match:

By BL rules, the Game Type is forced to stay the same each game.  Or...

By BL rules, between rounds the losing team has the option to choose...
                1. a new map with the same Game Type,
                                         OR
                2. a new Game Type (and winner chooses map)

After all the clan battles throughout the season sick,  it sounds much too complicated.  

I cant wait to try out the mod... I tried out war zone.. didn't like it. I will try out your b4 passing jugement. It sonds like a good idea.. just need to see how it "plays"... let me know if you need some one to help test mod!!

Well guys, I am working on the mod, but I sure would have liked to hear more opinions. So long as they aren't idiotic, "OMG i'm soo afraid of change" posts, that is.

How about:

Whats the difference between this and the gameplay of domination?

what would happen when one team takes three zones then camps?

Because Nara, once you have taken 3 zones, thats 3/5ths+ of the map, you have earned victory. You have mastery, the right to halt the advance to brethe because you are already winning. Instead of a single kill up on your enemy, now you have made visible progress, and you must hold a long front to maintain it.

On the other hand, that is a good point. What if, since my mod is merely a simpler version of domination, we try that for the BL standard? Domination is already made and bugless, it was part of DS! Give me opinions guys, I think it could work.  I haven't played dom with no spawns before...

this just occured to me...

Big downside of Domination...You know where your enemy spawns.  that takes away a lot of surprise.  But this is an assumption.  I haven't tried it.

Domination is used for some big PC ladders.  but as an option, where the challenged team gets to pick the game type.  

     Domination in a CB environment--specifically, small games of usually no more than four or five players on a team--would cause more changes to gameplay than Warzone. Given the large size of most of the maps in the game, and also given that between render fog and obstacles/terrain your maximum range is very small in all but a few spots, using Domination for CBs would de-emphasize teamwork and require tactics based on lone wolves each holding a zone by themselves with no hope of backup of any sort.

Ah, but loth, are you forgeting that the smoke stays in your control when you leave, so you can move as a team. I guess upon giving it thought I do remember why I chose to propose a modified version domination in this thread. Dom calls for getting as much smoke as fast as possible. My idea only calls for taking it as a way to win if you are getting spawn camped, and you don't get points for how long you hold it but by whether you finish and still hold it. That makes sense doesn't it? Too much java homework...can not see... :(


I ran a bunch of no spawn dom games after my last post, and they all ended in elimination. One of the matches, however, had the 5 smoke locations controlled by one team and would have resulted (by my proposed mod's conditions) in a map control victory. I stopped the game in hysterics- much to the annoyance of my players- until I managed to explain why. On the whole it was a good experience, and the fact that you know where the enemy starts only adds to the need for good strategy that you can execute quickly.

     I was forgetting the smoke-control point for awhile while posting that, Aramarth, but when it occurred to me, I didn't change the post. When I've played Dom (with spawns, however, which I'll touch on in a moment), smoke control was all-important, so defending the various smoke pillars was essential, so in Dom games with small teams, the teams were invariably split up and each man was operating independently. With no spawns, I'm not particularly surprised that each game ended in elimination. Dom imposes the same penalty in a no-spawn environment that Warzone does: when you nab the smoke, your position is given away automatically.

     One thing: I think you misspoke (mis-typed?). "My idea only calls for taking it as a way to win if you are getting spawn camped..." A, spawn camping really isn't much of a problem in no-spawn environments, and B, if you ARE getting spawn-camped, you're not going to be able to get out to capture smoke. : )

He meant what he typed, but in different terms.  As like one team camps near their own spawn waiting for opposition to come to them (spawn camping).  And creating the domination like smoke areas was to keep players on their toes.

Here is where everyone loses sight/focus.  Once you mention smoke and bases, the first thing most of us see are players capturing smoke areas and winning a game.  BUT smart teams would realize that crafty coordinated team play that moves and controls the map as a whole and in unison, would be the more dominating factor in the overall game while capturing the bases as they go (dominating the map is dominating the bases).  Capturing only the bases is just a patch job, and would be easily taken apart by a well coordinated team.

Thank you ssick, I am in your debt.

     Ah, yes. My mistake; I always associate the term "spawn camping" with the offensive maneuver.

     It's a damn shame this is a Red Storm engine, or an actual mod would be possible instead of these silly half-assed attempts to force the engine to do something different. Aramarth has a great idea, but the engine's limitations will force it to be less than it could be. Optimally, it would still be about controlling territory, but it would actually keep track of how much territory (expressed as a percentage of the map, most likely) lies within your line, preferably with fog of war on the in-game score/stats display to encourage scouting. 'Course, this IS a Red Storm engine, which means Aramarth has to resort to bases to represent control of territory. Bleh.

well look at the bag of worms i opened up  ;D

I don't care much either way, i liked the old system and i'll probably enjoy the new one that mauti has said he is going to put in place. This season might see the collective come top since i know they adapt well. And it will be the clan that learns to master both wz and lms that is the victor which i think is cool.

anyway, what about random smoke locations? can it be done?

If it can it would bring a whole new light to the mod because no certain spawn has an edge straight from the start, that is off course my concern with wz is that certain spawns can take the smoke within 10 seconds of start (which would give the team that does the camping advantage).

Seeing as Mauti has made his ruling, and hasn't posted here even to tell me I am a terrible person who shouldn't post for humanity's sake,</sarcasm> I am putting my mod on the back burner. Do not distress you few fans the of the idea, the mod will still be made. I just don't have a sense of urgency anymore.

Yeah, that first sentence is off-color for me, but one tries to believe that it isn't personal when no one in authority chooses to offer an appearance in any of one's several threads. Simply to hear from people even if they breathe fire at me is better than total lack of concern.</soapbox>

I have got to stop that. See you on gameranger people.

All in all a nice idea Aramarth. Well honestly I didn't read this thread before I made my ruling. However the reason to introduce WZ wasn't to introduce a complete new game style it was to make an advanced LMS version that reduces camping and forces both teams to advance.

Bye,

Mauti

ok, surely theres a way to keep the smoke colour the same. Like in SOLO HH, the smoke stays the same but the game gives you the indication of who is in possesion (Gold Team have secured control point 3).

this would mean you wouldnt be able to see where your enemy spawns since all the smoke is the same color...

Mauti that is exactly what I hoped to accomplish. However, instead of the smoke rush possibility which people fear about warzone, the whole map would be the objective instead of just the central point. (here's hoping you reply a second time)

Nara, there is certainly a way to do that, but that sort of thing depends upon how important the natives feel it is.

From my experience  not many clans rush to the wz - they advance carefully to the zone and try to get the other team out of their defense position.

I think several zones are more inviting for a rush gamestyle because  the clan with the most conquered(reached) zones is almost for sure the winner contary to WZ where the central area is difficult to defend and all in all the kills mostly decide about winning or not.

However the wz creators are working on some additions/improvements.(visible timer and may I can persuade them to create a special BL version where the colours are correct).

Bye,

Mauti