*DAMN R6 Forum

Hey I just thought this would be a better place to here people's input about the possibility of a league hoping that now since the vote has been up for about a week and over 200 have voted that everyone understands it.  Put any ideas, concerns ect.  If you still don't know what this is about I wouldn't mind putting up the email I sent Bondo to start the whole idea.

Ok, first off, here is what I envision.  Naturally it will be in RS only as that is the only game with enough participation to pull it off.  So anyway, there would be 16 teams each would play one CB a week for 15 weeks against the other clans.  All battles would be 3v3 best of 10 games, 5 games per host.  3 points for a win, 1 point for a tie, 0 points for a loss.  Standings tiebreakers are in order, game win percentage and kill ration.  At the end of the season the top 8 teams would advance to the playoffs.  In a traditional 1v8, 2v7, etc fashion the playoff would advance in best 2 out of 3 battles until the championship.  The championship would be in the 18th week of the season making a season just over four months long so it would only be for clans committed to it.  We would probably run two seasons a year or maybe we would have to make the schedule two games a week to cut the regular season to two months and have the third month for playoffs.

Anyway, we would likely run a modified DAMN CB rules package and me and Infection would be the admins of the league.  I am thinking I could put together a basic site just for diplaying standings and scheules but would just make the changes manually and not deal with scripts (which are the devil).  Just to get an idea would clan leaders please send me a PM if you would be interested, we may have to change the scheduling around depending on interest.

Hey just a thought which I don't want to forget.  If there were to be a tie between two clans for 8th place what do you feel would be appropriate, having them play a tiebreaker game in playoff fashion, best of 3 or having the winner of the regualar season game between the two clans move onto the playoffs?

Hey Brain relax a little.   The league is in developement and all of these complaints and ideas will have to be attended to.  As we get farther on into developement we could decide upon these things.  You are right that it wouldn't be fair if there were those life problems.  I'm sure we will figure something out or somebody from the clan would have to come on and give an email with a good explaination of why their clan can't cb that night.  This is all that would need to be done.  The only time this would count as a forfiet would be if you failed to write an email or just didn't come on.

A small question....

Why would you and infection be the admins?  What's wrong with the Battle League admins we have today?  Why you two (seeing as I mentioned it in the first place....)?

Well, it would be seperate than the ladder (unless everyone wanted this system to replace the other) and so I didn't think the current admins would have to be kept along, I think Infection gets to be one as he has taken active involvement in it as have I.  You could be one as well Grifter if you wanted to.  I don't know if I would call your breif mention of this (and my reply to that) being the starting of this idea but either way I wouldn't mind you helping out with the league.

@Brian, I would assume that clans are bigger that 3 people and so if one had a problem the others would still be there.  Really, if you don't think 3 of the clans members could play a match during a 4 day period it would worry me about the clan's ability to play in the league.  Another thing I'm thinking is to have a player draft of people who are not in clans or in clans not in the league that can be picked (in a way to be determined later) so that the teams that have less players could get some extra help.

@Infection
I thought the tiebreaker would be games won and then killratio so that would decide the 8th space.  Do you not think that sufficient?

@Brain (not Brian like I typed before  ;))

If I were to do a draft I was thinking that we'd have to get the names of everyone who wants to play and specify which can host.  Then you would have a draft of the players in the style of the NFL (if we are keeping current clans but adding players) or serpentine style (if we are creating new clans which I don't like the idea of as much, clans should be able to keep together).  There would be no transfers of players once the rosters were set, no one could be added or dropped, or switched so good players couldn't congregate into one clan unless they were already there to begin with.

abou the brian thing, dont worry i am used to it
now back to buisness
i assume that the clan leaders would be able to kick players out, or do trades like in the NFL
hey, can i be an admin for the league too, after all arent i involved in it's creation(somewhat)? ;)

damn idea stealers! me an 0 Glacier have been kickin sumthin like this around, only a bit more in depth. but come to think about it, just a straight elimination tourney would probably be a much easier thing to manage. i'm all for the idea, and would love to see it happen. but as for to draft, i think that should only apply to non-clan players. or maybe not. as long as you could get your own clan in as a team all together without having to recuit anyone.

question: will the be a tournament of losers to fight over last place?

Replies to questions and ideas

@Bondo I'm saying if the clans had the same amount of games won.  Now that you mention the kill ratio as being that final factor it sounds fine.

@Admins I wouldn't have a problem either with having Grifter or Brain as admins.  Just Grifter next time I want to talk to you do you think you could let me?

@Draft  I think this could be a fun and exciting idea.  I'm still not completely sure how it would be going to work but something like the weaker clans draft first?  Also a clan would have to have a roster before the season began and any addons or trades would have to be adjusted to the roster.  You won't be allowed to just quit your clan and join another.

@Brain When you say double elimination playoffs you do mean when the #1 clan faces the #8 clan they would play best out of 3 games which would each be best out of ten to get one win in the series, then they would have to do the same thing again to get another win?  This may take a long time but I'm sure it's possible even though I'm not sure if that is what your idea is.

@ Brain, lets try to have something for people to be admins before we start getting so many of them.  Also it would depend on the need for Admins.  As I wouldn't be participating on a team it makes me a good Admin.  I think we can have a number of people come together to discuss how the league should be set up, but once the league starts I think only those not on participating clans should be admins in terms of making rule decisions.

@Playoffs, if we were going to have a season and then playoffs I think it should be single elimination.  If it was just going to be playoffs then I would want double elimination to make up for any seeding errors.

To take them in reverse order....

That little snip isn't the first time I've talked here about it... I talked about it back when the league was being reset and we were discussing alternative point systems (back when I was bringing up challenges before and everyone said they weren't necessary).  Ultimo and I had a great conversatioin about it being like a league...

As for not having to keep the current admins along... no, nobody has to keep anyone along ever.... but why in the hell wouldn't you want to?  Ultimo and Assassin have been doing a great job of keeping the league running pretty smoothly for quite some time.  They are also to of the more respected names around here.  No offense to Nixon, who seems fine but just hasn't been doing it as long... as far as I'm concerned, if he's good enough for Mauti, he's good enough for me until proven otherwise.  But why wouldn't they be the default choice... why would you, I or anyone else be needed? (not that infection, myself or anyone else couldn't do it... but why replace the guys that are already getting it done?)

Last, for the Draft idea.... I think that's horrible.  This is about clans right?  I should have the right to play for whatever clan I chose... not have it decided for me.  This is especially true for free agents like myself and the rest of the old SWAT players.  There's no way in hell I'd be joining a clan just because someone "drafted" me.  You gotta be kidding.  (visions of AK Grifter just made me vomit).  

This is like anything else.. don't make a rule because it's cool.... what problem are you trying to solve?  If it's to stop clan jumping.. make a rule like you can't add any new members (eligable for playoffs) in the last month before the playoffs or something.  That keeps a good player from jumping from a clan that didn't make the playoffs to a team the will just to keep going.  But a Draft?  What problem will that solve?  I can name a bunch it will create....

Ok, first off, I wasn't imagining this league taking the place of the ladder so the other admins would be busy with that and wouldn't deal with this one.

About the draft, I'm not suggesting that we get rid of clans and draft but for the clans that don't have sufficient players to compete they would be helped by getting the players that aren't affiliated with a participating clan.  Also it wouldn't be great for competition if we let all of the best players assemble together into a few clans.

Either way, I envision each clan having a playing squad of 6 with at least three that can host so that they would have enough to be able to  battle even if some couldn't during one week.  For larger clans like AK, they would have to limit it to the top 6.  For small clans they might not have 6 and so they would need some unaffiliated or members of clans that either had to many or weren't in the league to fill out the ranks.  That is why a draft of some form would be fair.

more than likely grift you would be taf grifter(if we even were in the league) we suck, ak doesnt
also let me clarify my idea for the playoffs
clan 1 plays clan 8. clan 1 wins. clan 8 goes into the losers bracket
then clan 8 can fight their way back ?to play clan 1 in the final battle(champion of the losers bracket against champion of the winners bracket)
then clan 1 would have to beat clan 8 once to win(clan 8 has to win 2 times. clan 1 is still undefeated)
i know this looks complicated, but i am making a drawing that will clear everything up
i know this bracket system works, we ran our high school chess championship the same way

i think about it like if clan 1 beats 8 and clan 2 beats 7, then clans 8 and 7 would battle to determine the rank of the underdog. then the best underdog i suppose could have a wildcard spot for a battle against the final #1 ranked clan as brain said.

question: will these battles count for the normal battle league as well?

Bondo may want to answer that because I don't know Anarchy. ?

Like Bondo says the other Admins will be busy and he could help out because he's not actively ?participating in the league. ?I would also be able to Administrate because I don't believe FIRE will be part of this league for the fact that we are having some trouble and waiting for members to get new computers and problems fixed.

Bondo does it matter how many members a clan has as long as the number of players in the game is 3?

I'm not really sure that this double elimination is going to work. ?It may be a little confusing and take too much time.  I feel that if you play three games each one being best out of ten you have enough games that if you make a mistake or have a bad one you can make up for it.  But I will listen to anything so when you get that drawing Brain that will help me visualize it I have no problem reading it and seeing if it's possible. ?Also I suppose it is what the majority wants.

ok, because i think my idea might have been taken the wrong way, i made some nifty-keen  graphics to demonstrate it. so, here is pic of regular the regular elimination, as envisioned with 16 teams:
(http://nads.home.attbi.com/toc.jpg)
and here is what my idea of the tournament of losers would look like.
(http://nads.home.attbi.com/tol.jpg)
all it does is add elmination rounds for the losers so they can battle for the lower places. but i do like the idea of a wildcard spot for the winner of the TOL having a shot at the overall winner. what do you guys think?

Hey Anarchy this is how I also envisioned the playoffs when first starting out. ?I think this would be a great system if we can get over 25 clans in the league then it would be very possible to have the top 8 in each region make the playoffs and have a total of 16 teams in the playoffs. ?That is if we can get that many clans. ?If there are only say 15 clans in the league the top 8 like Bondo is saying will do. ?I agree with you and this idea if we can get that many clans, I'm hoping you can understand that right? ?If we get that many clans it can be the set up for playoffs and the clans elminated in the first round would have a chance for a losers tournament.? So can we all agree with a sufficient amount of clans that we use Anarchy's idea and with only about 15 we use Bondo's?



Or is there a problem with Anarchy's?  You tell me any other concerns.

For a team to be completely eliminated they must lose twice.  Therefore if the team that had fought through the loser braket beat the team that hadn't lost, they would need to do so a second time to win as the other team would only have one loss.  If we choose to go with double elimination I could get it to work.

About clan size, I was hoping for 6 but I suppose three would be fine, the problem is that I wouldn't be making exceptions for teams not being able to play and so a 3 person team would be much more likely to be forced to forfeit.

About the battles counting for the ladder, that may be able to be worked out but I don't think I'd want them to, I think this should be a seperate deal.  Also, I don't think the rules will be the same so it may not work anyway.

Bondo I'm saying that 6 is fine but clans can have more than 6 right?  I think they should be able to use who they want right?

i'd say clan size can be whatever, but all of teh battles should be 3v3.

The reason for having bigger rosters would be so that you could always have people on that was the only real complaint.  All of the cb's would be 3v3 so I'm sayin atleast 6 members and if you want more that's your decision.  

oh yea, if you use my system i would like props for it on the site
nothing much, just a little thank you line
is that to much to ask?

yup, way too much to ask! ?;D

Thank you guys for putting it into the visual (Brain and Anarchy)  It helps us see it better and see a good losers bracket instead of just kicking them out of the tournament.  These systems are good for 2 game elimination from the playoffs and with the use of them if we have enough clans I thank you.

Infection's Thanx

no problem man  8)

Well I'm gonna call it a night for work and get some sleep, I've got crappy math tests this week.  I may come on later tomarrow around 9 and post to any new questions and ideas.  Good night.

No offense Brain but that is pretty much a standard double elimination bracket.  Thanks for making that but I wouldn't call it special.  I still don't know if I'd want to use that unless we were going to do only a playoff.

About clan size, yes I did want to limit clan size to 6 so that no more could be on a team.  One reason is that these extra players could then potentially be put into the draft pool to help small clans get to 6 members.  I guess a problem with that is that that member could tank on purpose against his real clan, but I'd just suggest that that person not play against his own clan.  I don't see what the hold-up about clans really is here, I think it would be fun just the same if we broke everyone up and for the purpose of the league just had 16 people become team captains and then let them draft their squads of 6 and just play for the fun of it.

;)  I just thought this thread could do with some assing.  But truthfully, I am thankful for all your help with ideas for the league.

after some exaustive research, 4th order differential equations, 3 dimensional integrals, and alot of higher level physics and algebra i have fount that there is a difference between my bracket and anarchys
in anarchy's bracket the highest rank a clan that lost can get is 3rd
in my bracket anyone can get first
just pointing a not so obvious difference
(correct me if i'm wrong anarchy)

To cycle back to the draft issue... no offense Brain but being TAF Grifter doesn't make it any better.... these are clans you are talking about... groups of guys that enjoy playing with each other... that form a team... this isn't the major leagues.. it's a bar league... you know.. where people that enjoy hanging and drinking together get the group and join a softball or hockey or rugby league.  The schedule and bracket still apply, but draft?  Give me a break.  It's about the clans, isn't it?  I don't want to belong to a clan because they had the luck of the random number generator to get me.  I want to be part of a clan I choose... and I'm sure most everyone feels that way.

As for all the best players joining the same clans.... it's just like any other clan... if it happens, it happens.  That's up to the clans to work out for themselves.  If a clan wants to win and be really skilled... it has to only let in those really skilled players (kinda how SWAT did it).  If a clan is to have a great time and not worrie about winning or losing... just playing... then they will get the players they think are cool to hang around.  It works, why fuck with it?

If it is what you say, just to fill in the ranks of clans that don't have enough people.... let people on GR declare that they want to be in a draft... and clans can only pick those guys (and like a pick up game.. everyone gets picked no matter how good or bad).  Because I have news for you, I wouldn't play any CB's for a clan I didn't chose.... and I know a bunch of others that would feel the same way about it.

The league will be a fun idea, but can we plz put ak back on the roster/ rs ladder ???

Grift, If these good players formed a clan prior to the start of the league and entered, it would be fine, I'm talking about not letting there be free movement of good players once the league starts.  Also, only people who wanted to be in the draft could be drafted.  Basically the first step would be for all the teams to submit their rosters of 6.  If any clans didn't have 6 they would be suplemented by drafting from a pool of players that want to be in the league but weren't on any of the squads.  The draft is just a way to get all the clans to the proper number of players plus give an oppertunity to clanless players or those who aren't in the top 6 at their clan to play.

Well in your case.. it was just being in a clan I didn't chose.. at least I like you guys.  =P

It's nice having someone you can disagree with that doesn't turn into an insulting dumbass all the time... good show!

LOL, pulling a Rapid... I think you just gave it a name... kinda like being a dumbass was pulling a Rom for a long time =P.

This little tournament sounds fun, I just have one opinion here. Instead of making it a double elimination, keep it a single elimination. That way, the winner will be undeafeated and the pride to know they truly battled their way through the field. Also, this is something that could be done once a month, or every two months, with all the winners (the 6 or 12 teams that were undeafeated) meeting at the end of the year for a final showdown to win the title.:):)

Just a thought..kilzo

Well it seems the real controversy is whether or not to have double elimination and who the moderators should be. ?What should we do to decide?

-for Bondo

Here's a suggestion for an admin if you chose not to go with the existing group.

In many leagues, the owners (clan leaders in this case) would get together and vote upon the commisioner.  Why not have all the clan leaders that want to be in the league gather for an online meeting (or have it in the forums if time is a problem).  The all get a single vote on who should admin the league... Top two or thee vote getters are elected.  That makes sure that the majority of the league has faith in who's taking care of business.  Also, I'd suggest it not be someone in the clans playing, but that's open to debate, because if they trust him enough to vote for him, why not let him....  

Just a thought.  But I still think that the BL admins could do the task and Ultimo and Assassin have proven themselves more then once.  Personal issues with Rapid haven't ruined my faith in them... it's made it stronger as they were doing the right thing (if a bit slower then some wanted).

i favor double elimination
due to the fact that it may be a close cb and you lose one or two games due to pure chance ot lag, etc. then you can make up for it later

brain, you are correct about my style, in that the way it is there the highest you coudl get if you lost is third.

I'm in favor of my style, which i guess would be single elimination with a tournament of losers to establish the lower pecking order. but i like the idea of giving the winner of the losers a second chance at battling #1.

qurstion: How will the teams/clans be matched up to start with? like, decide who goes against who first? by rank on BL, or what?

@ Anarchy, yes, it would likely go by ladder rank

@ Double Elimination, I would definately want it if we were only doing a tournement, but I wouldn't want it if there was a league and then playoffs.

when you think about it, we already have the league. this IS the playoffs.

A league will be with schedules Anarchy and divisions.  It will be a season and after the league's season the playoffs come.  

Any other ideas from anybody or complaints?