*DAMN R6 Forum

Hello everyone.  I have never seen this topic debated on the forums, so I was just wondering what your opinions are about it.  Lets make this a non bashing thread session.  Fun times guys.

To me, it seems like alot of people think of "punk" as a type of kid who is a total outcast.  You guys know the type.  The one who sits by him/her self at lunch or somthing.   Or maybe its a type of music.  Or better yet (and my personal favorite), being "punk" is defined by the clothes you wear.  You know, the Dickies pants or shorts.  Converse All-Star shoes.  

Well, in some ways these reasons are correct.  They all seem to tie into one big reason.  However, it is not how you dress that makes you a "punk", or what kind of music that you listen to.  That is so much B.S. I can hardly stand it.  Being punk in alot of peoples minds is the whole "non conforming" deal.  Once again, this seems like crap to me.  Yes, I know that all those old school guys probably had different reasons for dressing in leather boots, studded leather jackets, etc.  But you take a look around, and seriously think to yourself, "What is non-conforming??" .  It is absolutely nothing.  You cant "non-conform".  Its all been done.  

I am 18 years old, and am in High School.  I guess I consider myself a "punk", but I dont broadcast it to everyone.  Yep, I wear t-shirts of my favorite bands, and I have a pair of Converse All-Star shoes.  I got 2 pairs of Dickes pants, and 2 Pairs of thier shorts.  Now, you may accuse me of being a poser.  Go ahead.  What makes you think that I will care?  I buy the shoes because they are comfortable.  I also skateboard, and a decent pair of skate shoes is about 70 bucks.  Now, every time I destroy a pair of my skate shoes, why would I want to go out and spend another $70?  Converse are nice and cheap.  Dickies?  I love 'em.  I can buy a pair of them for under $17 dollars at like K-Mart (wich also makes me laugh, because the local skate stores and the store "Hot Topic" charge like 25-30/pair).  The pants and shorts are easy maintanance, durable, and more importantly, comfortable.  Why go to a store (such as Abercrombie & Fitch) when thier clothes just fall apart after the first 3 months, and you are spending sometimes 3 times as much.  If they werent so expensive, I would maybe buy some of thier cargo pants because I think they look good.  Which brings me to my final point.

Being punk may include dressing a certain way, or listening to "punk" music.  But to me,  being punk is purely a mindset.  You do what you want, not just to project a message of "Fuck you all and all of your stupid conformist ideas", but you do what you want because it makes you happy.  I am definetly not saying that by doing the so-called conformist things that you are unhappy, but sometimes you can really tell by looking at a person weather or not they care what people think.  

Doing what you want(being happy) + Not caring what other people think = BEING HAPPY (a.k.a "punk")  

I am interested for you comments.  
Cya around

-Exe 8)

I'm 18 & in college,
I guess i usta be a "skater" back when eveyone wanted to be in their own group, now i shop at J.Crew and Bannana Republic simply because their close are comfortable and they fit well.  I'm wearing a wool Sweater that cost 100$ and pants that cost 70$ right now, you can't get any more comfortable that this.  I grew out of the whole Jeans and tshirt buisness a while back, and i also stoped listening to punk rock. The whole punk scene is what i dislike about the music (fat kids pretending to be drunk and chanting oye). Its not a personality change i went thru, i'm still a asshole. The only difference is that you get girls when you don't dress like a social outcast. btw i hate abrocrombie, and i don't listen to a very well known musical genre  ;D

In my mind, punk came  about from one thing: the music. Being a punk revolves around this music. The music and what you refer to as a "punk attitude" synergize to make a "punk scene". I am not a punk. I think the entire idea of being a punk today is stupid in some regards? its just a label. If you want to live your life that way, thats cool by me but I tire of people that woke up one morning and decided that it would be fashionable to be "a punk". I enjoy punk music, and have been to a few punk concerts to my credit.

So anyway, back to the music. The reason I don't give much creedence to the punk scene today is because for all intents and purposes, punk is dead. The only punk scene where I see anything of note happening is the hardcore scene, but that said all hardcore is mostly the same and hardcore kids will always be hardcore kids. There are still some punk bands making good music today, but they are essentially all relics from the past like bad religion, fugazi, etc. I think that punk's DIY attitude is cool, and most of the punks I know are pretty cool? just as you said exe, they live life on their own terms and I don't really see them taking intentional steps to be "outcasts" or anything like that. I am annoyed at what I see as the bastardization of punk by incredibly shitty bands like sum41 or blink182 or even the most insulting thing of all that ditz Avril Lavigne calling herself "a punk".

So anyway, back to the music again. I guess I can't really comment on the punk lifestyle or the punk scene very well because I don't live it. I don't really feel any connection to it, so to me its all about the music. And the music is dead. The scene is not dead - people are still listening to minor threat, the clash, and the ramones today. But punks need to realize that by perpetuating this scene they are merely rehashing the past. Do they need to be doing new things with it to keep it a legitimate form of music? Is it possible to do new things and have it still be considered punk? Should they even bother? These are questions I don't know the answers to. I think these are questions that the punk scene must answer however, at risk of the entire thing (whatever that "thing" is) fading away.

btw w00t 200th post  ;D

corrected a grammatical mistake to please loth. btw loth, omfg.

I wear Dickies you know, for one reason.  As jeb stated, comfort.  I used to always wear them to work cause they are tough, now i just wear them cause they feel good.  I dont call myself a punk cause punk used to mean Rancid and Op Ivy.  Now I dont like those bands but now to stupid people punk means Blink 182 and NFG and high voices. LOL!

You cant say its defined by the music cause the music has changed from totaly different and not that popular to main stream radio shit.  There are too many people who wake up in the morning and say "Im a punk and heres why...."

I wake and say "Im tierd as hell, i think i'll wear these dickies and this cool shirt with the dog drinking out of the toliet...man im going back to bed."

I'm not punk but I like punk and have a lot of punk friends.

You might like my buddies band.

I just don't put effort into having GAP or OLD NAVY or something stupid across my back. Does nothing for me. I ain't free advertising.

to me, punk isn't about the music. I don't even think it is a uniform entity anymore, to tell you the truth. I think being punk is relative to oneself now, because whereas some may think that blink 182 is punk others may disagree... however who is right? You may never know. All i really know is the true punk is dead. It died with the 80's... because the culture and the spirit was alive back then.  What we know as the "general punk" now is the modern form.. and like I said, it is relative and completely subjective. I've learned this over the course of many years, because I'm slightly involved in the houston "punk" scene. I've seen my share of what are generally considered posers, ie the girls in the hot topic plaid skirt and safety pins and the guys with the blink shirts on, but I realize that I can't define what is punk and what is not, and nobody is a real authority on this. I go to shows and I talk to my friends who all like to point out the "posers" but in my eyes they are often as immature as the people they mock.

In short, punk IS dead.

Oh, and on a side note i have the black high tops that are almost falling off my feet, i have the blue dickies pants, i have the band shirts...   However I don't consider what i wear to be a statement that determines whether I am punk or jock, rich or poor, fake or genuine, right or wrong... and I don't hold a grudge against anyone who prefers to go the abercrombie way. it's their choice and it would be hypocritical for me to hold it against them.. because I would hate to recieve the same treatment.

Im also interested, what bands do you listen to exec. ?

Bah. Advertising the fact that you are a punk really defeats the purpose. To start with, what makes punk is the music. Like Tasty said, everything else is just the punk scene. But the problem is too many damn queers like to go around and pretend they are punks. If you were really into punk, you wouldn't care. I wear whatever the fuck I find comfortable, usually jeans, a t-shirt, and sandals. I listen to a lot of punk and hardcore. Some people call that punk, some don't. Who gives a fuck frankly. The funniest has to be wannabe "punks" who are too cool to dick around or whatever. Have fun, do what you want. If you look like an idiot doing it, so be it.

As for the music, admittedly there isn't a lot of great new punk, but there is some like AFI and Tiger Army. Also, old punk still kicks ass. And for the record, Blink 182, Sum 41, New Found Glory, and Avril Lavigne are all bastards and should never be called punk music. Period.

     Sorry, I've got nothing to contribute to the discussion, but I wanted to correct Tasty 'cause this is one of my linguistic pet peeves. The correct phrase is "for all intents and purposes." Thank you, please resume.  :)

Haha, nice one Loth.

Anyway, when I hear the word ?punk? I think of a british guy with a spiked leather jacket, shaved heads with weirdo spikes in pink and shit like that. I find all that to be utterly rediculous btw.
I have no idea what american punk is compared to that really, although I find some skater punk to be pretty cool, like Millencolin (maybe it's 'cos they're Swedish). I don't really like the old school british punk anyway, they're too british for me.
I just dress in what looks cool/nice and is comfortable and warm enough in this cold climate of ours.
On a side note, ?Dickies? sounds really gay.

Punk is not a style of dress.  Punk is not a state of mind.  Nor is it an attitude, the bands you listen to, the haircut you get, or an attribute you give to a person or place.

What is punk, then?

It's a genre of music, a classification, nothing more.  It's defined by the number and type of chords used by the (typically electric) guitar.  The Sex Pistols, The Clash, NoFX, and Anti-Flag are Punk bands simply because they play their guitars and drums the way they do.

People then associate the common elements--ideas, looks, attitudes--between the bands and label it all "punk" when it should not be labeled as such, or at all.

We do it with every group: punks, indie rockers, emokids, etc, but it's our foolish, imprecise use of the English language as a way to label, classify, and pigeonhole American sub-culture.

have you all learned nothing!

and roy, i agree with you for the most part but I do believe punk began as something a little more than music.. however your ideas on catagorization are right on.

and btw, the sex pistols were terrible (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/icon_bluh.gif)

Punk. . .
Sk8ter. . .
Prep. . .
Etc.

I feel like I'm in middle school again.  Seriously, who gives a shit?  Every extensive purpose (;)) of these labels is purposeless.  That is, they categorize people and things based on style of dress, and the like.  

I say, who cares?  What you wear is about as important as what race you are, and as long as you're comfortable and at least within the context of the setting, you're fine.  I wouldn't wear "punk" attire to a funeral, but otherwise it shoudn't matter.

For all intents and purposes, its the intensive properties of a person that count.  Like personality.  Intelligence.  Post quality.

Extensivity such as clothing is really a non-issue.  Plus, why make an issue out of identifying yourself as "punk," when that entire idealogy is to rebel from established identities. . .

Hypocritical punks, you.

just curious cookie, what makes the sex pistols worse than any other influential punk band... like the ramones for example. and what punk music do you listen to?

The point is that their music wasn't influential at all. They got big mainly because of their shock-value. On the other hand, the Ramones were possibly the most influential punk artists ever having started the whole thing really.

But they were influential... maybe more for their image than their music, but nonetheless influential. Their whole anti-media tirade has been repeated many times in the music world. And although personally I think their albums sound like shit, they essentially took the Ramones' formula and added pure rage. And yeah, the Ramones were the most influential punk rockers ever, but if their music is taken at face value than the quality isn't really much higher than that of the Sex Pistols. They were the first to do it, and they are important for that. But look at the Ramones... they are half-wit drug addicts who haven't came up with an original idea since 1982 (no disrespect meant to the recently deceased :().When it comes to pure listening quality, I'm not really interested in either of these bands.

Ahh. I finally found another person that listens to gay cajun(it's a real genre haha)! But anyhoo, I'm not exactly sure when the Ramones or the Sex Pistols came around, but I must bring up my hero, Frank Zappa, and mention that he was doing the whole anti-media thing since the late 60's. I'm not a big fan of punk rock or the punk scene, but I will listen to a punk band now and then when I'm bored with jazz fusion and stuff. Now don't kill me for saying this, but the whole punk image is starting to get kinda trendy around where I live. Some fellas I know think I'm crazy for having long hair and wearing ahhh.."hippie clothes". Like most normal people, I just wear what's comfortable and relaxing, and it just happens most of these clothes come in brown and dark green. I think the whole punk ideal is just thinking outside of the box, and trying not to get a job so you can live off the government. ;) However, I think that message was lost a long, long time ago, and it saddens me.  Ah well, what goes up must come down, even if it didn't go up very far in the first place.  ;D

Ace, you hypocrite! (And rare can I say that about Ace.  Crazy, yes! Hypocrite?  this may be the first) How can you say, in good faith, that the Ramones started it all, and not call Blink 182, Sum 41 and NFG punk?

Just listen to "God Save The Queen" and then listen to "Judy Is A Punk."  What is the difference between those teo songs?  the first is honest-to-goodness punk.  punk the way it was meant to be.  The second is a bastardization.  It is quintessential Pop Punk.  yes say the Ramones started it all, and you're right!  They created the monstrosity that is Pop Punk.

Needless to say i love the ramones, New Found Glory, and pop punk as a genre.  What the distinction you should make Ace, I think, is that between good pop punk (The Ramones, (and in my opinion) New Found Glory and old Blink) and trash such as Avril Lavigne, Sum 41 and newer Blink 182.

If there's anything I've learned over the past few years is that people into punk and indie music will slam an entire genre, say emo or pop punk, when it tends to be unwarrented.  Yeah most emo sucks, but some of it's really good.  The same goes for alot of things.  You have to consider music on a band by band, album by album basis, or else you'll make a fool of yourself.

   A punk is a punk, no need to get into details.

k i was skimming through this topic..and i saw jn listing prep right by punk..... lets get this straight: I am prep. i listen to rap, i party, have lots of friends, where bling bling, i where dress shoes and And1s and i wear brand names like diesel and txt.  prep != punk.  prep is the opposite.

Woohoo!  Someone at least read my inately clever post!

And I was noting that they're all states of mind. . ."identities" of a sort

I think it has to do with media. What's in the news/tv/movies etc is what people strive to be. You may say bullshit but I can assure you..there are plenty of people out there that only care about this one thing. They watch a Christina Agueliaerada;sfe (however the fuck you spell it) music video and the next day they're buying clothes just like hers. The "punk look" wouldn't have come around if it hadn't been for the punk bands in the 80's. The prep look wouldn't have come around if rich pricks in Hollywood weren't parading around in expensive clothes. Think of fashion shows. The models are perfect in every way and model perfect clothes. Who wouldn't want to look that way? Don't bullshit me with "I like the way I am"...everyone's insecure in their own special way.

Think of it like this. Whatever genre you choose..generally you're going to make friends of that genre. So its a given. Dress like a punk get punk friends. Dress like a prep get prep friends. Sort of like everyone dying their hair with highlights and what not. Where the fuck did that come from? Honestly it looks trashy. Putting bleach or chemicals into your scalp isn't very appealing. WHy do people do it? Not because they think it looks good...because everyone else is doing it. Because people in Hollywood do the exact same thing.

That's the truth plain and simple. Since everyone else is doing it..its ok for me to do it too.

Tasty, am I a punk? :)

I think you all suck. A punk is just a kid who has ever done wrong in their life... Thus, all of us are punks.  Whenever we do something wrong we're called "punks"...

Other then that around here you can spot eem easily. They wear dickies, love music, have lotsa friends... Thats a punk.

Basically,. the true definition of a punk is havign a quality that sets you apart from everyone else or doing soimething that makes you stand out.

Ben

Ben you could say the exact same thing about nerds, preps, gueedos, goth, freaks, and homos.

The true definition of having a quality that sets you apart is... "being different".  

Sorry if I shocked anyone with that revolutionary definition.

And for the record, because I'm curious what i should be "labeled:"

I listen to punk and indie rock.  (Think The Ataris, Piebald, NFG, Taking Back Sunday, The K.G.B., Wilco, Bright Eyes, and Built To Spill)

I wear t-shirts-usually that I bought at shows or places I've been or been given, jeans-typically levi's-relaxed fit, sweatshirts of colleges I'm somehow associated, L.L. Bean sweaters and overshirts, and my father or mother's old army coat.  

I hang out with people who are interesting to talk to, tend like the same music as I, and sre willing to do crazy shit at 3 o'clock in the morning with me.  

In my free time I hang out with friends, go to concerts, play frisbee, run a radio show, read, drown myself in drink, and play video games

What am I?

Oh yeah, and I'm looking for someone who likes long walks on the beach, pretty sunsets, and steamy hot animal sex. Can't forget that. *looks at his fellow "jn."ers with a licentious/pedophilic eye.*

i couldnt help but notice someone state that a punk has lots of friends..not entirally true.  If you come to my school (my school is pretty bad) you will notice that ALL the 'cool people' are preps.  i would know im friends with half the grade 10s and dont care about the rest..u gotta wear shit like diesel etc. to fit in.  Its fads.  and THEN u see punks..they hang out in little 4 people cliques and they always try and act extreme.  its really kind of annoying to see poser rebels

the sex pistols wouldn't have been terrible but not for the inclusion of sid vicious. I despise him, he was a terrible human being as well as musician. Their music is racous, unorganized, the riffs misplaced.

Anyway, the "punk" bands i enjoy (some converging into the hardcore catagory):
gorilla biscuits, minor threat, black flag, the queers, the eyeliners, the misfits, charles bronson, fugazi, bad brains, melt-banana, magnetic IV, and screeching weasel occasionally :) a few of those bands are local and i wouldn't expect you to know of them. can't forget the ramones as well. and btw, what sets the ramones apart from the sex pistols is they had rhythm, good lyrics, well organized music, and a clue. I don't care if you do call them pop-punk, that's not necessarily a bad label when it comes to the ramones. They have a unique sound, and at least give them props for coming up with THAT much.

Nay Py, Preps are "cool", nerds are "smart"  I won't touch on gueedos... goth are scary and anti-prep, freaks are just the normal people, and homos are Bondo's.  The definition of something thats ets them apart still pertains to mainly they are different in their own style. A certain quality inside strives out asking to rebel.

Ben

The man who on one Fresca-induced high kidnapped wrath and repeatedly intruded him until wrath barely managed to get away by chewing off his own wrist.

Or, if you don't like that description, your friendly neighborhood janitor.

See ben, its not who you are, its the mortality.  Honestly, I've experienced alot of street shit, and i got street smarts.  but im also nerd smart..(no really im smartest out of all my friends) you have to understand, someone like me, is a fashion victim.  'punks' etc are also fashion victims...nobody really chooses clothes to 'express themselves' dont ever say it does... but honestly i would be the same if i was punk, i would act the same.  Its just the society you live in.  I dress so i fit in; so i can go party n get pussy (etc. etc. etc...).   There is no such thing as a fashion statement...just a fashio victim. write that down.

*winks at roy*

*puts on absercrombie sweater*

*puts built to spill cd in computer*

*rocks out*

Lies. You don'tget head because what you wear, you get head because how you act. And yes, I use clothes to express myself. Well... 1 shirt... that says "Correct me if I'm wrong (everyone else does)" and I wear Kings clothes. That expresses my favorite hobby, basketball, and favorite sports team, the Kings. I didn't mean smart either. I mean smart and the lack of laziness to carry those smarts out.

Ben

ben, where do u live, ohio?

Bah. I'm sorry, but no matter how good the band might be, you'd never catch me dead listening to a band called The Queers. I'm not a bigot or a homophobe, but it's just a kinda...I dunno. Distasteful name or something. Gives me the eebie-jeebies. I don't wanna know what goes on backstage after the shows... ;D

no one ever said punk was tasteful mellow. plus, they're funny.. and their name isn't reflective of anything whatsoever. plus... queer also means odd btw :)

ben livesin that special place in my heart. :D :D :D

Mellow, get this... not only des queer mean odd, it's meant odd since before it meant people who shoved dicks up their asses!  Call me crazy, but I think they were called "Queers" because that was such an odd thing to do!

You know what I love?  Those people who say "I'm not racist, BUT why can't those big black mammas get some work and get off welfare?" or something similar.

Or even better? "I'm ok with people who are gay so long as they don't try to do such and such to me"

My favorite?  "Some of my best friends are gay/black/hispanic/female."

If you don't want to know what the Queers do backstage (and by the way, it's probably drink, smoke, and hang out like everyone else, gay or not) then you need to grow some balls, as paradoxical as that may seem.

If you look at someone differently when they walk into the room because of their age/race/gender/sexual orientation then you are biased towar that group.

Needless to say, I am racist and sexist.  I have a negative prejudices against people from different socioeconomic backrounds, people with different sexual orientations, even people of particular religious sects, including the one I am a part of (f---ing christians)!

Basically what I'm trying to say is that you've been raised to be prejudice, whether by accident or by design, and it isn't until you recognize this that you can rid yourself of these preconcieved ideas.

Wow, this post went from mocking mellow to rant in the course of one paragraph.  Go me.

Now, so that I can make a (probably vain) attempt at staying on topic, here's my problem with the "punk" sub-culture... Punk is just a subset of rock.  It was a form of artistic expression, albeit a politically and socially charged one.  People (including bands themselves) capitalized on their similarities in style and ideology to form a counter-culture.  When the political tomfoolery of the late 70's and 80's died away, the purpose of such a counter-culture dissappeared.  Instead of fading off into oblivion, punk was assimilated to the mainstream.  The music evolved out of it's humble beginnings into the pop-punk and emo I love today, and the rest was assimilated into the mainstream.  As such, punk is no longer a counter-culture, but rather a sub-set of pop-culture.  Anyone sporting dickies is no better or worse than jn.blackhand with his abercrombie sandals.  Hot Topic is the American Eagle of the malcontent.  

Essentially what I'm saying is that anyone who identifies themselves as "different," "better," "worse," "oppressed," "enlightened," or "revolutionary," I'm not going to welcome you back to pop culture when you abandon your dickies, and stop bleaching your hair, cause, kids, you've been with it the whole time.


(The following is my editing)  Sorry, I didn't really enumerate my problem with the punk sub-culture. I don't care that it lost its focus and sold out, in fact, I rather enjoy that part.  My problem is that people think they've done and/or are doing something that they arn't, because they are as conforming as everyone else.

Ok first off this is fuckin cool.  No bashing.  Just making solid points.  

Ok now I have somthin else to bring up.  Everybody bitches about how Blink 182/New Found Glory/Green Day sold out.  

My question:  What is "selling out"?

I guess i cant really say much about it because I'm not famous or anything.  But this is what I think.  I am in a band, and if any of you out there play in a band, no matter what kind, you will know what I am talking about here.  For those of you that are not musically talented, please listen.  

Lets take a rock band for example.  Decent guitar that doesnt get out of tune easily on stage, has a nice sustain,  looks good.  $600 stock.  A nice pickup for the type of music you are playing?  70-120 Easy.  Now for the amps.  Lets say a nice Marshall Half-Stack.  JCM 2000 Triple Lead.  This new is maybe 1500 bucks I think.  The speaker cabinet is like 600.  Various cables, effects?  another 200 bucks.  I dont even want to go into how much a Decent drumset will cost.  You can easily spend up to over 3 grand on just the cymbals.  

Are you guys gettin the picture that this shit is e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e?  Good

You gotta be able to make a living out of making your music.  You guys can call New Found Glory sellouts if you want to.  I personally think their new cd blows ass, but thier old stuff is cool.  There are 5 members in NFG.  You guys know that for like the first 2 years of being on tour, they all slept in a fucking van?  Even when they werent on tour they didnt have enough money for an apartment.

I love playing music, and always will.  But i want to be sleeping in a bed and having more than 1 set of clothes to wear.

-Exe

I dont think these bands sold out, because they sucked to begin with. The definition of selling out is when a band begins to change their music to make it appeal to a larger commercial audience, usually to appease a large corporate record company they just signed with. These three bands did not sell out because their music always appealed to mass audiences and hasn't ever really changed very much... I mean yeah their albums sound different but none of them ever really do anything innovative.

I'm not really one to bitch about bands selling out, because I don't really form attachments to certain bands... I buy on an album by album basis, and if a band starts to make music that I don't like anymore than I just won't buy their album. Here is a short list of bands/musicians that I do think we can safely say "sold out":

the former members of the band rage against the machine (now known as "Audioslave")
Nine Inch Nails
Moby

I have no problem with musicians making money. They can be rich as hell for all I'm concerned, if that many people like their album than good for them. The only thing that gets me is musicians that make their music a certain way or market it a certain way in order to make money. These people are not really musicians in my mind, they are more like businesspeople or cool versions public spokespeople that represent corporations. Musicians don't deserve to starve (thats why I BUY albums as opposed to pirating them which I know SOME people do).

Tasty, how is Audioslave selling out? I've heard some of their stuff and if you took out Chris Cornell it would sound just like they did with Zac. Chris Cornell just has a pretty different singing style than Zac, but that doesn't make him a sellout. On the whole, it is good music, but it just doesn't compared to old Rage or old Soundgarden. It is definitely a case of a band being less than the sum of its parts.

Executioner, selling out, especially for punk bands, is a cardinal sin. It is admitting that you are just a corporate whore and that you don't believe in your other music.

Sell Out
Well, I know you can't work in fast food all your life
But don't sign that paper tonight, she said, but it's too late
I don't remember what I read, I don't remember what they
Said, I guess it doesn't matter, I guess it doesn't matter
Anymore - you're gonna go to the record store
You're gonna give'em all your money
Radio plays what they want you to hear
They tell me it's cool but I just don't believe it...
Sell out, with me oh yea, sell out, with me tonight
Record company's gonna give me lots of money and
Everything's gonna be
No more flippin' burgers puttin' on my silly hat you know
I don't want that no more, I didn't ask when we'd
Get paid, I quit my day job anyway, I guess it
Doesn't matter, I guess it doesn't matter anymore
You're gonna go to the record store, you're gonna
Give'em all your money, radio plays what they want
You to hear, they tell me it's cool, but I just don't
Believe it
Sell out, with me oh yea, sell out
With me tonight, the record company's gonna give me
Lots of money and everything's gonna be
I don't think it'll be so bad
I know it won't be so bad
Cause the man said "that's the way it is" and the
Man said "it don't get better than this" no no no
So i signed on to the record company, they say they're
Gonna give me lot's of money, if I play what they want you to hear
They tell me it's cool, and I sure believe it...
-Reel Big Fish

I felt that was fitting, so i posted it. But now, with my opinions!

Ace, it's obvious that you are much more of a purist when it comes to punk.  but then again that's why you like Rancid and I don't.

Selling out, by definition, is abandoning an independent (K, Hydrahead, Kung Fu) or semi-independent (Matador, Big Wheel, Vagrant) label for a big name, big money (major) label such as Capitol, Virgin, Columbia, or Epic.

Now, let me say some crazy-ass blasphamy.  Selling-out is NOT a bad thing.  It can be, but it is not inherently bad.  Consider a few cases:

Blink was originally on the independent Kung Fu records (also home to The Vandals, The Ataris, and MxPx, to name a few) until they sold out. And then they became the band we all know and despise today.

Green Day was on the semi-independent Lookout! records (also home to the Donnas, Pretty Girls Make Graves, The Queers, and Operation Ivy) until they sold out to Warner Bros.  Of course, their first album after selling out was Dookie.  Undeniably one of the best 10 albums of the 90's, produced after selling out.  Their music didn't change to fit the populous, the populous changed to fit it.  I mean they talk about masterbation in their hit song!  If that's not punk I don't know what is.  So, green day, by selling out, produced better music and got it heard by more people.  If you think that's bad than you're fucking nuts.

And then there is my favorite live band ever... yep, New Found Glory.  They never sold out.  They were the most pop-sounding band since ABBA from the moment "Nothing Gold Can Stay" was released.  Everything they've released has been on Drive-thru records, a semi-independent label.  Their last album, true, was nothing compared to their self-titled album, but they didnt deteriorate by selling out.  And I don't care what any of you say, "Head On Collision" might suck, but "My Friends Over You" is an incredibly good, albiet pop, song.

Basically, Selling Out is only bad if the band abandons their fans, generally by changing their music to be more mainstream.  But more often it is the fans who abandon them when they sell out, while they stay true to their music.  The most irritating thing about the punk and indie sub-cultures is their habit of hating any of "their" bands that becomes popular.

My post was too long so I have to double post!  That's crazy!

Anyway, I'll leave you with this: the following was posted by Kris Roe of the the Ataris on their website in the FAQ after they "sold out" to Columbia records.  I added the bold and italics, the rest is straight from him.


Why did you guys sign to Columbia Records?

Since our contract with Kung fu was completed this year we have had talks with many labels both indie and majors. The main goal we want to achieve as the ataris is to be a band that will forever exist completely for our fans, our way of achieving that goal is by doing all of the following things... writing our fans back, running our own website and posting and replying on it ourselves, opening a record store so we could do special shows occasionally and when you are in our town you can actually come by and say hi, going out before and after we play every night and taking the time to meet as many of you as we can, making and controlling our own merchandise 100%, inviting fans every night to get onstage and play a song with us, always playing low priced/ all-ages/ general admission shows, all of this we will always continue to do no matter what label we are on cause this is who we are and no one can change that and that is 100% straight from the heart. Our main factor in choosing who would be our new home was that we want as many people to have access to our band as possible, whether you want to face it or not punk rock music has never been an elitist art form, look at the bands who started punk music such as the clash, the ramones... etc. do you think it made them any less true to what they were that they were all on major labels?

The bottom line is that we chose Columbia over everyone else we talked to for no other reason than this, we want to continue to grow as a band and this for us we feel at this time is the next gradiual step for us as the ataris, everyone at columbia completely understand how we have operated our band and how we want to continue to operate our band and have no intention on destroying or changing anything that we have built, they actually encouraged us to continue putting out 7 inches and other special releases on kung fu while we're on their label, one final note to clear up...

our signing to columbia had absolutely 100% nothing to do with marco leaving or with money, We made plenty of money on an indie. No matter what we know that our real fans know that we are true in our words and will always grow with us as a band, to everyone else, we understand what it is like to call something your own and not want new people to discover it but there comes a time where you have to realize that it's only rock and roll. (answered by Kris on 2001/08/07)

im a punk, i got a chain wallet

Hah, didn't mean to offend you so much, but it was just a joke. Now, as for selling out, I think people don't have the correct definition of selling out. Selling out is changing your image, sound, or ideas so you can sell more records. Musicians who call other musicians are generally just jealous. People who ramble on about bands selling out are generally morons . Now, I'm not calling anyone here a moron, don't take it that way. I was talking to a fella the other day who was calling Blink 182 sell-outs. Then I asked him what his favorite band is, and he said NoFX. Now I'm not a big fan of Blink 182, infact I hate them, but that's just dumb. NoFX started their own record label, bullied smaller labels out of the market, and kicked musicians from the label who didn't have that particular sound. This, in my opinion, is selling out. Most punks around here think that any punk band that gets famous has sold out. These are the morons(in my opinion, please don't hurt me). Anyhoo, just my 2 cents, and my opinion, don't flame me too much.

Who the hell cares about the definition of selling out, either you like the music and you listen to it, or you don't like the music and you don't listen to it, it's that easy... Selling out is no reason to like or hate a band/an artist.

I never said it mattered or not. I was just kinda annoyed at how some people think that any popular band has "sold out".

   I'm sorry youre all getting WAY into this, being punk, I hate to say it, is all in the soul, eve how corny that sounds. I know kids who dress with a leather jacket and ripped pans who are punk, and guys who dress like their going to a country club who are no more or less punk, Black, Euro, Asian, White American, Spanish, etc. It's all a state of mind. I don't like to think of myself as "punk", you cant really diffine the term. I don't like to use labels, and try an free myself from them at all times. "Punk" is a label. That's all it is.

   Wallie~

true, true, roy.

the ataris by the way, are now with columbia. and the three songs that are definately going to be on the next album, so long astoria, are not only really good, but they're actually not about girls. yay for growing up.

I quoted myself (and how narcissistic is that!) in response to agt. wallabie.  Wallbie, try all you want to "free yourself" from labels, but it's impossible.  It's a lofty idea, sure, but you're fooling yourself.  You cannot define yourself because it's not your place.  You are defined by what others think of you, because if there were no others, there would be nothing to which you would be classified against, nor would there be reason to  either classify yourself or escape classification altogether.

And blackhand's right about The Ataris' new album, it's gonna be awsome.  they've gone a litle emo, which will piss people off, but fuck people, they don't know what they're talking about.

the ataris suxxor.

   Maybe ur right Roy, maybe ur not, who knows.