*DAMN R6 Forum

Just the another day i got in a fight with my youth paster about pc's and macs. I told him how mhz for mac and pc are diff. And how macs pwn pc's. So then he though this list at me that looks like a uber geek wrote it:

All mac users please reply:
Technichal Reasons to Hate Macs
One mouse button, less functions
Some Macs have monitors built in to the machine, bad if you need to replace or upgrade the monitor
Hardly any software available for Macs compared to software available to PCs
Hardly any hardware available for Macs compared to hardware available to PCs
Existing hardware/software for Mac is usually very costly
Macs themselves are very overpriced
Macs are at a huge disadvantage for business uses
Only one choice of operating system
Almost all drive additions are external
No such thing as an "internal modem" with a Mac
Most software you will probably buy for a Mac is from a mail order catalog(pay shipping, wait)
The subject of games on a Mac is a frontier larger than America in 1492
Market share of Macs is extremely low, and declining (That means Mac users are an endangered species)
Fewer ports behind a Mac, can't add most ports via expansion cards
Far less Mac developers compared to the amount of PC developers(Probably more Java developers than Mac)
Few ISPs provide access for Macs
The "IBM-Compatible" Macs were the most sorry excuse for a clone
No such thing as a visible file extension for a Mac
Automatic eject floppy drive works very illogically, manual button much simpler
Many public schools are shifting from Macs to PCs, less market share, but smarter kids
Macs take forever to boot up
PowerBooks catching fire
Can't have wallpaper backgrounds
Macs have slower CD-ROM drives(Even high end Macs come with 4x, and PC users can enjoy 12x and soon DVD)
Macs only use SCSI-2, no UltraSCSI, IDE, ect.
Macs lack preemptive multitasking
The Mac OS is 12 years old
Apple is in terrible financial condition
Apple related companies are also floundering

Philosophical Reasons to Hate Macs
Mac users are easily offended (No doubt about this one)
Little babies like Macs (corny kid software abundant)
Most rich snobs use Macs
Any computer that smiles at you can't be good
If you make a computer that morons can use, only morons will want to use it
The Apple Macintosh logo is a rainbow-striped fruit, suggesting....
Squishy Bearz hate Macs
Macs have a reputation as the "Family Computer" (Blegh)
Dave Thomas (Satan) uses a Mac to record all of his junior bacon cheeseburgers sold (15 so far)


PC  :o                                    ::)mac

Simply put:

 Most people use pc because they are cheap, the software is cheap, the hardware is cheap...its built for the masses therefore developers put out suck ass software very cheaply and the masses buy it...lol. Macs are more spendy because they are QUALITY machines with quality software and hardware. As far as games goes....the top 6 selling games last year were all available for mac....and yes we wait for games because developers only are concerned with the almighty dollar, and since apple has about 5% of the market, they dont make games strictly for mac or they lose money...duh.

But if you want to have a bill gates box on your desk, go ahead, I could care less. All I know is at least apple isn't ripping off pc designs, pcers are constantly trying to copy the Mac design and style. 95% of ppl use pc's cuz they have no style and are just plain ignorant.

Just my opinion, I love my Mac and would never go pc. Oh, and OSX Jag pwns all that windows shiznit...

There are so many things wrong with that that I don't want to get into it, but there are definatley internal modems =D

Wow, that person must have no life in listing ways to find out how which technical and philisophical reasons macs are worse then pcs but to sum it up : Half of those are wrong. For example : Wow, such bullshit.

I only got one thing to say people.

DIE PC,
PC=shitty 2cents beige/black box
Windows XP=Coloring book without the crayons
Microsoft=drug dealers who sold drugs for billions of $$$
Pentium4 processor-slower than my grandma
DOS=crappy black and white TV in a 15in screen
PC software:Its cheap cause its all made in china, which has cheap labor.

owell,
one

 Just starting right from the top:

?One mouse button, less functions? - This is an advantage to Mac?s. While the PC requires you to have multiple buttons for it to work, the Mac doesn?t. But it does support mice with multiple buttons.

?Some Macs have monitors built in to the machine, bad if you need to replace or upgrade the monitor? - They also have a port of the back of them where you can plug in an enternal monitor.

?Hardly any hardware available for Macs compared to hardware available to PCs? - Someone sure needs to look up what ?Hardware? means, in the dictionary. Name several things in terms of hardware that are available for PC, but not for Mac.

?Macs themselves are very overpriced? - If you want an inferior, but cheaper machine, then go with the PC, if you want the quality of a Mac, you have to be prepared to pay the price for one.

?Macs are at a huge disadvantage for business uses? - Umm, someone really needs to check up on their facts. Mac?s are far better than PC?s for multiple users, thats why buisnesses use them.

?Only one choice of operating system? - Um, no. *Open?s system prefferences, clicks on startup disk, and views the fact that he has both OS 10.2.2, and OS 9.2* - I, as do many other people, run multiple Opperating systems on my computer. So that ?fact? is incorrect.

?Almost all drive additions are external? - Just last week, my brother bought an internal 80GB HD for his computer. Most people just chose to get external drives, but there are many internal ones for sale.

?No such thing as an "internal modem" with a Mac? - So far out of the two ?facts? that you?ve tried to throw in here, both have been incorrect. My powerbook g4, as well as all new macs, have internal 56k modems.

?Most software you will probably buy for a Mac is from a mail order catalog(pay shipping, wait) ? - Thats all in where you live, if you live right near a nice Apple Store, you can just go there and get much of your mac software.

?Market share of Macs is extremely low, and declining (That means Mac users are an endangered species)? - Check your facts, fool. The market for Mac?s is not declining.

?Fewer ports behind a Mac, can't add most ports via expansion cards? - I?m yet to find a port that you can?t add via expansion card... On our old Powercenter 150, we upgraded it to a 450g3, and added on Fire Wire and USB ports, by using cards.

?Few ISPs provide access for Macs ? - I?m yet to find an ISP who doesn?t provide access for macs...

?No such thing as a visible file extension for a Mac? - The third out of the three facts you?ve tried to use, which it is wrong. Write here, I have a file called ?Piece of shit LA class.cwk?; the mark of someone who has never used OSX...

?Automatic eject floppy drive works very illogically, manual button much simpler? - Just the fact that you mentioned floppy drives explains a lot, considering that the new macs don?t come with floppy drives.

?Many public schools are shifting from Macs to PCs, less market share, but smarter kids? - My school just got a nice new shipment of iMacs, just this week. The whole school district here changed to Mac?s about 5 years ago.

?Macs take forever to boot up? - Again, the mark of someone who has never used OSX. My 10.2 takes about 30 seconds to start up.

?PowerBooks catching fire? - I?ve had 5 Apple Laptops, ( 2 iBooks and 3 powerbooks ), and have never seen this happen, it?s a rare occurance, and the same has been known to happen with certian PC?s ( melting ).

?Macs have slower CD-ROM drives(Even high end Macs come with 4x, and PC users can enjoy 12x and soon DVD)? - 12x? Sheesh, PC?s are worse than I thought. High end Mac?s come with 48x, I belive.

?Macs only use SCSI-2, no UltraSCSI, IDE, ect.? - With firewire, why the hell would anyone want SCSI in the first place?

?Macs lack preemptive multitasking? - Obviously you?ve never used a Dual G4...

?The Mac OS is 12 years old? - The fourth of your four ?facts? which has been incorrect. Mac OSX came out about 18 months ago, and Mac OS 10.2 came out about 4 months ago.
?Most rich snobs use Macs? - Yes, anyone with the a good ammount of money should get a Mac, since the only major disadvantage is the price, you pay for what you get.

?Macs have a reputation as the "Family Computer?? - That?s because Mac?s are so much better for PC?s for multiple users.

This had to be overall one of the dumbest things I?ve ever seen. I think it was either written by someone without a brain, or someone who just woke up from an 8 year coma and is still recovering.

Well, most of you people who blindly defend Mac's are just as ignorant as people who blindly defend PC's.

The list above is somewhat correct,b ut at the same time, somewhat incorrect.

  I use PC's and Mac's and find the two to be good for it's own reason's. PC's are cheaper then Mac's but Mac's are great for if u need to use a Art program. But i do find PC's to be faster, Yet Mac's dont crash as much.
  I like to think of them both equal. I could write more but I dont have to time.
 
   Wallie~

Since, that list is by and large useless FUD. Name 3 things from it that are correct, and I will be surprised.

I also agree with wallie.  They are equal.

But then again, Microsoft is a monopoly and every one of them should be shot.  As you can tell i'm not happy right now, I just received a call from my brother saying the xbox's laser (that reads the cds) has worn down and the system no longer plays ANY games.  we payed fuckin $500 for that system, had it the 1st week it came out.  NOW THAT IS BS.

They also are making people pay monthly for xbox live.  also complete BULLSHIT.  i can play many MANY games on my computer online, for only the price of my ISP.  GameRanger is FREE and scott has only enough money to support it, and he does a great service for the world, while microsoft makes people pay for it when it would only take POCKET CHANGE from them to make xbox live free.

ok i'm done.

Three things that are correct from his list (although not for the reasons he mentioned)

Hardly any software available for Macs compared to software available to PCs

Many public schools are shifting from Macs to PCs, less market share, but smarter kids (The real reason is that there is more educational software available for the PC's and the PC hardware is cheaper to purchase)

Macs themselves are very overpriced

Those are three things that he has correct. I do admit however this guy is a dipshit and really doesn't know what he is talking about on the whole - he is just using common misconceptions and wild theories to make himself seem smart in his eyes.

Added on: After looking through that list, I must ask exactly how old it is. Awhile back a few of his comments would have held up (such as CD-ROM speeds and ISP availability), but today they dont.

Added on again: I think this list is very old...he mentions Dave Thomas, the founder of Wendy's, but Dave Thomas died last year or sometime recently.

  Gorf's got a very good point. Microsoft Is a empire and is cheap as hell. The only reason why I like Mac's more is that there quallity is better and that my familly always used them.
  There also great for small businesses. If you use a PC system for ur small business you'll find urself paying alot more then if you used a Mac one.   :o

   Wallie~

Yeah I'm glad pyscho caught that.  The list was apparently written around 1997, when Apple was near bankruptcy, technologically stagnant, and floundering without direction.

However, using the argument about decreasing market share in that list, now is clearly the best time to buy a Mac.  Since so many of the list items are no longer true, and Mac is increasing its market share, one must assume PC share is declining. . .

Thus PC users are a dying breed, and we should all buy Macs.

And what was up with the beef about Wendy's?  :D

Sin, if you believe that there is more software for Windows than Macs, notwithstanding the plethora of Aqua and Classic apps, I suggest you peruse SourceForge (http://www.sourceforge.net/), especially the Fink (http://fink.sourceforge.net/) page. Windows can't compete with everything that is out there in the open source community.

Macs aren't overpriced. You have to pay for quality.

And Apple was the #1 seller to schools last time I checked, taking back that spot from Dell who stole it for a short time.

Hey for an update,  this information was also included:
?Don't get us wrong, Steve Jobs makes excellent computers. Macs are extremely user-friendly and quite stylish. They are fully functional right out of the box. Great for design work and the graphic artist. But if they are so great, then why don't they have the most share of the market? It is clear that Jobs has targeted a certain market. Too bad the rest of us are not included in their strategy. Too bad for them that is. Better for us.?

?????This is quite complimentary for the Mac. ?Too bad the rest of us are not included in their strategy.? A low priced fully upgradeable Mac would open the market for everyone to afford the Mac platform.

??????He builds cute little machines that are design marvels.? This certainly is not an insult to Macs. If anything is a cut on the PCs. Perhaps you should not become so defensive and re-read before you over react.

??????Expensive to buy....? Well Mac users certainly admitted that their products cost more. ?......operating system and many programs are not backward compatible.? This is a big problem for Mac that noone really responded to. Everytime you get a new Mac you have to upgrade a great deal of software.

??????We realize that Macs are more capable of using many more of the interchangeable parts of the PC platform than they have been capable in the past. This is an improvement, but not for major upgrades, like Cpu's and video cards. If you're a hungry Mac user, you have to wait for latest hardware and software titles.? This was covered well. Macs haven?t always been fully upgradeable. The fact of the matter is many Macs still are not fully upgradeable, certainly not the Macs targeted to the low-end user.

??????When was the last time you saw a Mac owner at a LAN Party?? One viewer wrote that he hosts Mac lanparty all the time. Please let us know where and when they are. Is there Mac lanparty website where Mac gamers can find many local lanparties? If there is please share it with us. We will be happy to post it. Lanparty.com is devoted to gamers and lanparties. The vast majority of lanparties are PC based.

??????It's like you can customize your PC but not your Mac.? Here we were wrong. We are mature enough to admit it. We became enlightened to the fact that you can customize a Mac to your liking. We just wish there were low-end Macs available that could be affordably upgraded.

??????......what's with the one button mouse?? We are well aware that you can put any pointing device on a Mac. We just wanted to know why you only get one button to start. Two button mice with scroll functions are very inexpensive. Why should have to buy one, it should come with the Mac when you open the box the first time.

?????All in all, the article was not meant to into Mac bashing or PC bashing. It was meant for PC users to justify the fact they may actually be using in inferior product. Yet this is where the sheer number of software titles becomes overwhelming. Gamers are historically impatient with short memories. When we finish or overplay one game, we want the next game, as soon as it comes to market. We dont want to wait for it to be released for our platform. This is why many gamers own consoles as well. We are all still waiting for Halo to come out for the PC. But consoles have their limitations too. They are not made for lanparties. Fifty PCs can easily be networked with a few good switches and a few feet of cable.

We have it as a button on the keyboard. Control click something. Same feature.  This way it's just more secure so we have more room (less chance of error)
Yah, I've seen PC copy the design. What's his point?
This is also false. You just need to know where to shop. Granted, less games for Mac compared to PC, but I beg a PC person to find iMovie for PC. iMovie pwns. Quality. Free. Awesome. Mac has it's fields of products, PC has theirs. (And they are completely different)
True they are more costly, but in the end it pays off. There was an article posted (do a search on google) that said Macs are actually cheaper because they are easier to use!
See above
No, they aren't. Macs are used in the buisness world too. My school is made up of Macs. I don't see where this came from, and I'd like to know why he thinks that.
LOL. Every OS sucks, Mac or PC, it doesn't matter. Still, there's classic and theres 10+, so there are to choices.
Not true on both counts. iMacs have internal modem. What type of external drives? Plus why is having one so bad, just keep it plugged in. Eithger way I have just as many ext. drives for my Mac as I would for my PC.
I said earlier; you just need to know where to shop.
Heh. I won't argue there. Our game selection sucks. I will just say this; Macs do have quality games as well. Escape Velocity started as a Mac Game, Rainbow 6 did as well(or so I hear).
And this is a point against using a Mac how? In any case, I don't think the fields declining, I just think it's averaging out. Some people are going for Mac, some for PC.  I find it funny that all the teachers in my moms master's program for computers are Mac users.
LOL. We don't need any more ports. I want this guy to name 1 use for having another port. In any case, you can buy a hub port. I got a USB hub where 4 poorts open up where 1 usually did. I've never actually used it though...
Riiiiiiiight... I'd like to see his proof.
*cough* MORON *cough* Uber-bs. I've never even heard such a thing.
Almost as sorry as the IBM's rip off of IMac's.
Lies. (I'm tired of typing against misinformation)
Floppy's aren't even used anymore. In any case, my computer has a button for it's floppy drive AND you can trash it. It does both ways. Trashing it is easier unless the computer's buggy.
Uh, many public schools got iMac's because they were the cheapest and easiest thing on the market, but now are outdated, That's the real reason.
I take that as a compliment. "Booting up" is a measure of RAM. A coimputer boots up quicker the less memory it has, or slower the more it has. He, in essence, is saying an average Mac has more RAM. Thanks bud!
No, one extension cord made a spark which caused a fire. Immediated they were recalled and the problem was fixed.

Ben (part 2 coming)

It's true, but that's because we are dedicated to Macs. If I talked to a serious PC user, he'd be just as insulted as I would if I talked trash on PC.
Ahahaha. Have you seen PC graphics? That's just as true as saying "Little babies like PC's."
Funny, the richest snob, Bill Gates, I bet uses a PC. If not... That is saying something, isn't it? (I'm a Middle class student and love my Mac)
That's good. Mine doesn't.
No, Morons are to dumb to figure out to get one, it seems like Professors use Macs because they are reliable and  easier. No hassle.
That was 10 years ago or so.
What the hell? No idea what you're talking about.
Funny. I haven't heard of that rep.
And neither have I heard this. I just know Tom Clancy is an Avid Mac user, and he's awesome!

Now, my personal statement. I've used both. Mac's are awesome for Video Editting, PC is awesome for games. Everyone computer is pwnage in one field, what that one field is they just must find.

Ben

yeah im pretty sure that list is from the Gilbert Amelio era, at the height of Apple's mediocrity (or at least as mediocre as an awesome company like Apple will ever get). Very few of those rules are even relevant anymore, if they were ever true in the first place. Obviously, most everyone on these forums has "seen the light" so to speak and everyone has their reasons for owning the computer that they do. I remember the very first issue of MacAddict (which I was fortunate enough to receive) was a PC bashing issue that I think summed it up best by showing that the average Mac user is just? well, cooler than the average PC user. My personal theory is that aside from the great deal of anecdotal evidence I have is that Mac users are smarter than PC users, as for someone to pick a computer that is not as readily available or as inexpensive would probably typically denote a more intelligent computer user. This claim has (until I undertake a massive research project) not yet been proven. I would much rather share a chat/forum/anything with a mac user than a pc user.

You have to be careful of what you wish for. I think you forgot to include the term "average" before mac and pc user because just doing a wide ranging stereotype is dumb. I for one am a PC user along with Coffin Dancer, Badboy and others. I would rather talk with them than say the idiots who hang around here (i.e. Mattster, infinity, or whatever that tard calls himself).

Anyway, the whole validity of this article depends on when it was written, and if it was written a while back like I said above, then it is void due to the changing times.

well, i did mean average for pretty much everything in that post, although i think i forgot to include it in the later assertions. i think the arguments i made were true -- and still are true, at least for the time being, although maybe to a lesser extent. but just comparing gaming communities, i think a smaller one (such as the Mac RS community) fosters a better environment than the PC gaming or filesharing communities??it seems everytime I enter one of these on one of my friends' computers, I am barraged with stupid comments and threats that someone will "hack" me. so not an insult to intelligent pc users, which I know are many, I just said I thought that the average Mac user was smarter and in my opinion more personable.

There are lots of bad things about both mac's and pc's, most arguments on this list are just stupid though.

By the way, what the fuck is a youth paster?

someone who glues kids together.

Ah alright, thanks for clearing it up a bit. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/wallbash.gif)

You alright Kami? Looks like your throwing your head against the wall rather hard there.

Ben

 Well, just a quick comment regarding the "I'd rather talk to a Mac person than a PC person" bullshit: It's very sad if you base who you talk to, off of what computer they use, instead of personality.

First, a quick comment on people's signatures. . .

Kami, generally images are not allowed in the signature section, as it slows load time for non-broadband users.  Please put text there.

And typhy, you misspelled "knelt"  :D

---

Anyway, where's this non-backwards compliant idea coming from?  I can still run Netscape 2.0 and Resedit 2.1.3 on my Mac 9.2 just fine.

Those are my two oldest programs, from 1996 and 1994 respectively.  I've never been forced to upgrade. . .Jaguar is the first OS that really requires that, and it's not like PCs haven't had at least a few OS changes that have done the same.

 Man, I've had that sig for about a month now, and no one has pointed that out until yesterday, when 2 people did, now you do today, Loud. ;) I will change it ASAP.

Don't make me dig up the link to the fact about how statisticaly more mac users have college educations than the pc counterparts. i also read something about your more likely to be hit by lightning than get a virus on a mac.
Oh and anyone running win 98 or 00 should go here (http://www.redherring.hm/crashme.html)

cookie calculus time  ;D
PC= pron/ warez machine, piece of shitty plastic running even shittier software, crashes, illegal operations (wtf??), cheap crap, complicated for no good reason, 500000000 x 10000 x 3042016781 drives, stupid OS names (ahem, longhorn), for the uneducated, monopolizing, too many unnecessary directories, GODDAMN UGLY, and last but not least


for jerkfaces.

   PC's really arn't that bad. VIO suck ass but the IBM's are great. On chrismas got a VIO and the peice of shit broke the next night. So i had to get a IBM and it's the best laptop I've ever owned.
   Most of ur reasons why PC's are better then Mac's are crap, and the same to why PC's are better then Mac's.
   So let's all just get allong   :D :) ;)

   Wallie~

Alright, I'll remove it then. I'll just get an equally cool avatar  ;)

And yeah Ben, I'm alright, I do that all the time.

    Ok. As for when this so called macs suck tyraid was written, I'll gaurantee you that it was before the release of the Biege G3 (ie 603 to 604e days).

    To the part about the no external monitor bs or whatever it was, there where very few Macs released prior to the Bondi Blue iMac that where all in one units.

    Since the coming of the "Power Mac," you could make a lot of changes internally, hard drives, optical drives, ram. It's just easier for many people to expand externally.

    In the days when the only way to have a modem with a Mac was externally attached to the modem port, most PCs used an external modem attached to a serial port. And besides, the Mac was one of the first manufacturers to have 56k modems standard on every model, and was the first company to make built-in ethernet standard on their consumer line.

    As for software, at one time the only way to get it was from mail-order, but that is no longer the case. And as for the fewer titles available for the Mac, honestly what are we lacking besides some of the newer games. We don't need a hundred different word processors, 4 of them give us adequate choice.

    In this day and age, unless you are an extremely hardcore gamer with the money to go out and get every new game as soon as it hits store shelves, the Mac is a very viable platform for any task(photo, video, edu, bussiness, games)

Another way you can tell that the article was outdated is the fact that he says apple companies are falling. Apple makes its own hardware and software. Before in 1998 the last "other" mac company that was baught out by apple was power computing, wich by the way was a god damn good company (they actually came up with the prototype of the G3 right before Apple baught them out). I once owned stock in Power Computing, and when they went under, I sold it and baught Apple (under my father's guidence of coarse).

Kami, oh, ok, that explains a few things...

Typhy, you also spelled "from" "form". You might want to change that as well.

Cookie, I got pwned by calc here. Put that in Lamens Terms please (that was sarcastic, I understood what you said... I really did get pwned by calc though)

Ben

-Horsecrap, you can perfectly well use 2 button mouses, and if you dont have one, use control-click
-If you need to replace a monitor, it was probably broken, if it was broken, it wasnt worth having in the first place
-We have all the important software, for god's sake, i dont need viruses, or spyware
-More bullshit, i use PC133 SDRAM made for PC's in my iMac, which has a PC100 RAM slot.
-"quality over quantity" mean anything to you?
-Macs have a huge advantage for business uses, you have a more stable platform, easy wireless networks, and if you need specific windows software, there is always Virtual PC (i'm doing exactly this for a business right now)
-Untrue, there is also linux for Apples, with virtual PC you can even install Linux for Windoze, or BeOS, O/S 2, anything. For god's sake who wants Windows anyway?
-How old is this piece of crap? Even with the first PowerMac tower you could expand your ass off internally.
-This must defenitely have been written in 199-something, All macs nowadays have internal modems, and back when they didnt, neither did PC's.
-No it isnt, there are plenty of stores where i can buy Mac software (though not in abundance..)
-Well, we do have to wait for most games my microsoft, like Halo and AoM, now i wonder why they would slow it so much? Could tey be trying to make macs less attractive for gaming?! Nooooo, of course not!
 8) For the rest, i have Ghost Recon, MOHAA, well, to sum it up, there are plenty of games.
-last time i checked market share 5% and climbing.
-this came to the author in a dream? even my old Performa 400 has the back filled up with ports.
-bah, so?
-welcome to the year 2002, the ISP can kiss my ass, i'll configure the mac right in 95-99% of cases
-why would we want IBM-compatible macs?
-do we miss the annoying file extensions? i think not.
-what exactly is illogical about selecting a disk on the desktop, and choosing "eject"?
-ok, i jusr read ahead a bit, and found some crap about macs having slow CD drives, and no DVD-compatibility. Made me realise that this is really one helluva old story. Mac medium-high ends having DVD burners standard nowadays.. so i'm taking this as a sign that the rest of the non"philosophical" reasons for not using a mac are bullshit, and outdated.
Read ahead a bit more, and think the so called "philosophical reasons" are just the author trying to piss mac users off. none of it makes any sense, and most of it is not even close to "philosophical"

Mainman, whoever linked you to this, must still be living in 199-something (when did they have 486 CPU's?)
have him on MSN or AOL and i'm sure anyone on GR could eat his ass alive (figuratively speaking).

Sorry for the double post, i couldnt add this to the last message, it was already too long.

Not only that, but Macs were also the first to get rid of the floppy drive, since it held to little anyway, and the first to start making built in cd burners standard.