*DAMN R6 Forum

     World War Three may or may not be starting in the next few months. If Iran or one of Iran's tools nukes one or more Israeli cities, that will initiate what will very likely be a worldwide nuclear exchange. That will mean that WWIII and the death of a significant fraction of the world's population was directly caused by religious people. Given the not-insignificant chance of a global thermonuclear holocaust within the year, I have found one idea that gives me some hope for the future: maybe this will be enough to end religion. I envision the survivors of the initial exchange coming to realize that civilization as they know it ended in mere hours, then spending the next days and weeks watching many of their number succumb to the ravages of radiation poisoning, and coming to the realization that religious people exacted a terrible price from the entire world. Then I envision them killing any religious people who had not died in the war and its aftermath, then--assuming they live in a place where the women can bring reasonably healthy children to term--teaching the next generations to think for themselves and to have an intense distrust of anyone who tells them that life is just what you do while waiting for death and your eternal reward.

     I have maintained for years that the human race requires a true science of the mind in order to survive into the future. Psychology and psychiatry do not fit this bill, because the application of those arts does not result in a sane individual but an acceptably insane one. I think that a sane human would necessarily be governed by reason rather than emotion.

     A truly reasonable, rational human could not follow the priests of any religion currently in existence, because the promises made by those priests hinge upon emotion: the fear of death, the fear of insignificance, the fear of loneliness, the desire for power, the desire for glory, the desire for love. A sane human would see it as axiomatic that without this world, this life is not possible, and without this life, nothing is possible--and he would work in the here and now to ensure that there is a future for this world and its inhabitants.

     Contrast this to the behavior of religious people, who accept as axiomatic that this world is only a stepping-stone to the next, so that actions that directly endanger the future of this world and its inhabitants are acceptable and even glorious so long as they hasten the religous person to their eternal reward.

     The end of religion, when the human race leaves religion behind as a childhood dalliance, will be a singularity from which humanity will emerge unrecognizable to us, not least because a humanity in which every person is considering their deeds in terms of a future that stretches beyond their own lifetime is a humanity totally unknown to us.

The upside? Well theres a pretty blatently obvioiuse one that im surprised hasn't been commented: Q: Recently as the UN tried to pull together a call for an immediate Ceasefire to the conflict in Lebanon, which two countries prevented it? A: the USA and the UK.

Q: Which countries are busy exporting arms to Israel, which country is allowing the USA to use its airports to ferry bunker busting bombs and other armaments to Israel so that they can use them to kill yet more Lebanese civilians? (I won't mention deliberatly destroying UN watch towers) A: The USA and the UK

excuse me while i throw up again.

Thats a brilliant premise starting point for an internal debate ive had going for most of my adult life.
I have a ton of material that i want to float, and have you guys debate with me..I want Tiro in on this one as well. Poo poo religion if you must, but do it like Loth did. Back it up. Dont use a bad church experience pass for your evidence that all church is evil...think it's evil? Explain why.

Deep ass subject, so fair warning..-->Long post from Sheix headed your way.
Im excited..thanks again Loth for bringing a perfect topic, and approach.

As Relevant as it gets for today... ::applause::

Im going to attack your position as hard as I can, and we'll see where we end up.
If you can convince me, Ill grant you the win. If I convince you..do the same for me.

Stay Tuned_

I think religion as utilized in the political sense is a tool to solidify mass support. The real reasons for Israeli and US aggression in the middle east are purely tactical. Israel wants to use Lebanon as a buffer zone from Syria and southern Lebanon has significant resources of water. Also, an Israeli controlled Lebanon gives them access to northern Iraq specifically Kirkuk where vast quantities of oil are located. These are energy wars masked for purposes of popular support by religious zeal.

While nuclear war would horrible beyond all comprehension, I think it is less likely than the prospect of mass chaos caused by energy shortages. The consequences for society would be very similar minus the massive toll on infrastructure and the release of radiation.

If such a world were to come into existence, I think most people would be absolutely focused on subsistence rather than assigning blame to religion.

I think faith and religion are two separate but related entities. Faith is absolutely paramount to effectively navigating a survival situation.

Without faith in the divinity of nature, the natural order of things, in your God, you will not survive when things are the worst.

I try to be a logical thinker but I cannot deny that there are somethings that science and the human mind cannot and will not ever be able to fully comprehend without faith and spirituality.

If my worst fears are confirmed and modern life is drastically altered, I know I will have faith no matter the circumstances.

Not that I automatically doubt you BFG, but you have some proof of this?  Maybe a link or 2?  Thanks


I feel the same way Spetz.  As someone who endured 8 years of Catholic grammar school, and 4 years at a high school run by Marianist Brothers I came away feeling like.....hmmm WTF?!  I was blatently told in my History and Theory of the Old Testament by THe Brother teaching the course that the book of Genesis was a farse.  Stories told to teach lessons/ and evoke fear into the masses. Great.
The New Testament for the most part being a recount of Jesus' life written by his Disciples...much of it was written years after Jesus had left Earth.  Are we to believe that every word of it is accurate? Who was actually there to see the events that took place when Jesus was a child? 
THe church was also formed years after Jesus was long gone.  THe ideas of confession, mass, sacraments, rules and regulations all created by people later on.  WHo is to say that any of it is right?   I believe in personal faith, right and wrong....morality, but in no way am I going to sit and listen to someone a few thousand years later tell me how I should conduct myself according to a list of rules established by an organization that has become one of the richest most powerful bodies in the world.  How can they teach mercy to the weak & charity to the poor and then posses such wealth? Loads of hypocracy throughout the ages.  If God did put us on this planet...then how come only a few people knew about him in the beginning?  THe Chinese never believed in the same Judeao/Christian God?  People had to bring him to them.  Why not just let them know himself?  Its all part of one sick joke I guess. I agree with most of you...Religion will eventually be the downfall of the Human race. The irrationality of it is just that. Irrational. With that said... I am not here to offend anyone, everyone is entitled to thier own opinion and interpretation...this is just what I take away from it. Don't get all caught up in the details given to us by other people.  Just some of my random ramblings again.....one of these days I'll put something poiniant together, but as usual I'm throwing my 2 cents in as I sit at my desk at work.  Maybe I should get back to earning my paycheck.

Here is a bit of a problem with your rationale Loth. Most people who are not fundamentalist look to religion as more of a sense of being overall then a sense of guidance. The difference is that it gives an individual a reason to carry on with his or her life with some sparse hope that their existance has a chance for eternity. I think this is the number 1 reason religion sells. Without religion people would have to be sold on the idea that you are basically put forth her for 70 odd years, rough average, to bear children, maybe help humanity advance in a minute way, and then perish only to have your genes and efforts possibly live on.

This is really tough for a lot of normal people to swallow.  I think for the average person, religion creates a check and balance so to speak in that they don't go off on an extreme with the belief that, "hell, we all die anyway". By this i mean suicide, murder, and basically anarchy in general. Of course this is an extreme, but a large set of the less fortunate, uneducated, and lower masses think in this way. I think the #1 reason most criminals break the cycle to their ways is religion. They are sold on the benefits of it and the forgiveness it allows them.

In addition, humans would never band together to ever collectively work for the good of the whole. Research, experience, and observation have shown me that human characteristics could never allow it. No matter how destitute a situation you put them in where their last choice is to live homogenously or die, someone would always ruin it. People always have to have more, be better then someone else, and in time of need, take it from those that are weaker.

I could go on for days refuting my hope for humanity. I think ever since technology has allowed people from different beliefs to interract we have had mostly horrific results. Much like colonies of ants, or any other species on the planet, there is conflict until there is domination. At which a time of peace persists until difference arises again. Its a cycle yet to be broken and proved almost daily.

I don't think religion either hurts or helps, just accentuates. Please continue...

Is this the way you want to start the New World Order? - How is that different than what has been happening thus far? Muslims kill Jews (place any two religions here) and vice versa - because they don't follow the same values, etc. Now you want to kill all of those that have a religious belief?

This is more of the same, hate - hate - hate - generating more hate - hate - hate - that will not end, and will escalate....

I commend you for offering your view of "The Solution" to the problem, though. Something I do not dare to offer, yet! Deep inside, I think humanity as it is, is fucked! And a change is long overdue and imperative. What and how, I'm not sure of....

I do believe in the existence of a Supreme Force in the in the Universe who has acted as an architect of what we know exists. I hope (have faith) that this same "being" will illuminate our minds (humans) in order for us find the right path. But in the end, it will be "our" decision, to accept this "recommendations" or not... which will eventually lead to our salvation or destruction. - Now wait, maybe Buddha, Jesus, etc. have all been these messengers, but we continue to ignore the message.... Who knew?

Cell, many of the questions you asked about the new testament... Can be answered in "The case for Christ." This book was written by an agnostic from an agnostic view point. The author tries to find scientific proof that Jesus even exhisted and that he was who his desciples reounted him as. He asks similar questions such as how did desciples remember things in such detail when the bible was written decades after his death.

I don't completely support religeon nor am I completely against it. I will post more on my oppinion once I'm off work and can organize and back up my thoughts a bit more. I just wanted to reply to Cell while I was thinking about it.

The up-side to WWIII?

I rename myself Slim Pickins and get in line to ride an ICBM to Iran. </lame humor>

While I think that is one possible result of a third world war, Loth, I tend to think (note, not hope), things would go the other way.  Like Spets made note of, faith helps people get through the worst of times, and those certainly would be the worst of the worst.  In the pampered society in which we live in this day and age, it is possible for people to not worry about reprisal from their deity because they didnt worship properly, or whatnot.  With such a firm grip on our survival that we all have today, it is ok to question, to examine and ask why.  When you're hanging on to life by the skin of your teeth, the fear of crop failure, disease, etc., is a much larger threat than it is right now.  While this does not mean people who were athiest/agnostic would suddenly become religious as soon as the bombs fell, over time that would be the trend.

In addition, if you consider the proportion of religious peole to athiest/agnostics, it's something like a 1 to 10 difference, so there would be very few occurances of non-believers being the majority in a group of people who happened to survive whatever might be to come.  The argument that the religious faith people have would be so shattered they would cease to believe and seek out something else is certainly valid, however I believe there are enough religious demagogues (sp?) around, or who would become so following the events, that it would sway people back to their beliefs in religion, and again the trend would be a generational one towards further belief in religion.

While current religions might not survive a third world war, I unhappily believe -some- form of religion would.  Possibly a mutated version of one of the major religions.

Who's read 'A Canticle for Leibowitz'?

I don't think religion will die as a result of WWIII because at least 10% of the survivors will claim they survived because of their God. Relgion is a load of crap. I was forced to be a Roman Catholic, I was born into a Roman Catholic family therefore I also was RC. I didn't get a choice between all the religions it was predestined before I was even born. If I was born in a different part of the world I could have ended up practicing a dozen different religions. Then on top of that the Roman Catholic church is historicly one of the most corrupt institutions ever. Years of corruption by rich assholes who raised one son to be king and the other to be pope to assfuck the poor people into oblivion. From robbing the people blind for power to touching little boys centuries of corruption. People need to read more books and get off this bullshit.

I'm tired overtime is gay but you all get the point.

Sigh...  I sure hope this doesn't turn into God bashing.  I'm a Christian, I don't go to church nearly as much as my wife and kids do but, deep in my heart I know there is a God.  I do agree though that the churches have been, still are, and probably will allways be corrupt, shame on them. That doesn't mean God doesn't exist.  Now, even though I don't go to church as much as I think I should, I still pray to God every day. 

I'm gonna end this a lot shorter than I planned, I just wanted to ask that this doesn't start into a God bashing thead, besides, the day will come when we all find out the truth, hopefully it's what I expect...

I don't necessarily agree with modern religeon. Most of them, in my oppinion, have lost focus over the thousands of years of their exhistance from what they were originally created to be. A classic example would be in the middle ages, the Catholic church selling pardons which eventually caused the split off of protestants from the catholic faith.

Though I believe most religeons have become corrupt or lost focus, I still understand a certain need for them. I believe that religeon was created to instill morals in a people who would be lost without them. As Cell said, the old testament is filled with many stories that may or may not have happened. All of these stories however, have a lesson to be learned from them and should instill an idea of right and wrong as well as develop a "faith" in God and that God has our best interests at heart even theoguh trials and turmoil.

Religeon should teach morals and give "faith." I am not a religeous person bit I still have "faith" that there is some purpose to my life. As Fahq said, many people look to religeon to give their lives meaning. Depression is a widespread disease/mental handicap among the human race. Many people suffer from depression. Think if people didn't have a purpose guiding their lives such as religeon-nothing telling you that there is actually a reason to be here and live a good life. I believe clinical diagnosed depression would be far more widespread in that event. Religeon gives people a purpose for getting up in the morning day in and day out.

Besides clinical depression, religeon also helps prevent conflicts with fellow man (though it has caused many). As I said before, religeon instills morals. It keeps us from acting on our animal instincts by causing us to consider our actions befor performing them. For instance, a man might think twice about stealing or murdering if he thinks that by breaking a commandment (a law set by God) he may face eternal damnation.

Religeon is not meant to be bad. Actually, I have had close friends who have "found God" and are much better people for it. One specific friend who comes to mind is a man who though not an alchoholic or drug addict, still used them recreationally. Under the influence, he seemed to become more aggressive of a person. He moved out of state with a girlfirend of his. He returned back home alone about a year later telling me that he had been charged with domestic violence against his former girlfriend.

I am not sure what exactly happened in the year he was gone but I could only imagine. He had been put in jail for about a month while he was out of state. I think this was when he realized what he had become and decided to turn over a new leaf. He came back a changed person, religeous when before he had never even mentioned God.  He joined a church group and intently studied the bible in his free time. He now lives a lot quieter of a life. While he still indulges in recreational activities such as smkoking and drinking, he is no longer violent. He seems to have found peace through religeon.

Another example of religeon changing a friends life: I had a close friend through high school who durring his senior year developed a brain tumor. He was hospitalized for about half his senior year. He was never that religeous but gained religeon while waiting for this tumor to be removed. Religeon gave him faith that he would pull through this situation. He was operated on and is now healthy. Religeon is still a major part of his life now.

These are two examples of how Religeon can be a positive influence on people. I am not a religeous person but for some, it is a benefit and gives them stregnth or faith in their normally ordinary lives where they might not have had this support before. That is why religeon is necessary. And while I don't agree with what it has become, it will always be there tio give people something to believe will be with them in their most lonely, distressed, or troublesome times.

That concludes my pro religeon post. Stay tuned for my anti religeon post to follow soon.

Cheap....I hear you....my upbringing leads me to feel some sort of guilt for even thinking the words "maybe there is no God". THe problem is usually not the message...its the people that think they should interpret for the masses.  Human distortion is the where my scepticism comes from. As a race (humanity) we are but a mere spec in time.  I believe that there is still plenty that needs to be discovered & deciphered.  I posses faith, but as the scepticle guy I wouldn't mind some scientific proof as well.   I can't help to notice that there is plenty of proof through science for most of the questions we have, and at the same time there are just some things that can't be explained.  Now it could just be that we haven't figured out the proper way to explain it through science, or we can not and will not have a way to explain it....or there is a God after all.  I try not to lose sleep over it...go about my life, loving my family and friends...trying not to be an asshole along the way.

I didn't get what you meant by this. Who raised who and for what?  ???

Well said, Cell.  I pretty much feel the same way, and like I said before, we'll all find out someday.  The thing is nobody knows if there is or there isn't a God, you just believe what you belive.  I don't think there is anything wrong with a debate on this subject, there just is no need for God bashing.  By all means though I don't have a problem with anyone bashing the HUMAN corruption by individuals or church politics.

I'm trying to insert a quote from cell but, my noob skills are getting the best of me so I'll do it the way I can.  Quote from Cell - " I posses faith, but as the scepticle guy I wouldn't mind some scientific proof as well.   I can't help to notice that there is plenty of proof through science for most of the questions we have, and at the same time there are just some things that can't be explained.  Now it could just be that we haven't figured out the proper way to explain it through science, or we can not and will not have a way to explain it....or there is a God after all."

There is this video I've had for years, I think I got it from Publishers Clearing House or somethin, anyway it's called "Are We Alone (in the universe)"  based on Zecharia Sitchin's best selling book ""Genesis Revisited".  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/6305497974/104-4834218-4985540?v=glance&n=404272
The one I have is from 1992 and the cover looks a bit different but, this is a very interesting.  It's about what this guy, Zecharia, has learned about man's quest for knowledge of the universe and his own beginnings..  I really hope that anyone interested in this topic could watch this.  I would be willing to let it make it's rounds if you can't find it though.  So if nobody else, at least you Cell, from what you said, I'm pretty sure you would really be glad you saw this one.

A little off-topic:

I read this book called "Saved by the Light" by Dannion Brinkley, Paul Perry, and Raymond A. Moody....

To summarize, I'll just paste how amazon.com describes the book:

"On September 17,1975, after being electrocuted by a bolt of lightning, Dannion Brinkley died. When he revived twenty-eight minutes later in a morgue, he had the story of a lifetime to tell- a profoundly moving account of what happened to him during his near-death experience.
It is a tale of a dark tunnel, a crystal city, and a "cathedral of knowledge" where thirteen angels shared with him 117 revelations about the future-95 of which have already come true. Even he now possessed the ability to read minds, no one believed his story of the spiritual transformation that changed his life- except others who had died and come back. A second near-death experience reunited him with his angelic instructors. This time, they revealed that he was to use his new psychic gifts to help the dying. Since then, he has dedicated his life to working with the sick and elderly, and sharing his fantastic story with people everywhere.

Dramatic and inspiring, Saved By the Light is an exciting look at the fascinating mysteries of life and death¨

Now, if there is or isn't life after death, I cannot say... but reading this book sure was comforting, specially since I read it one week before my old man passed away, so it helped me deal with the pain of having him depart and gave me hope that he may well be in a "better place".

umm..... What does that have to do with WW3?? I'm not saying its got nothing to do with it....It's just that i dont knw wat its got to do with it.  ??? ::sniper::

If you had read my post, I did warn it was a little off topic....  ;)

But it has to do with the religious / faith twist many have commented on afterwards. You see, the book deals with the continuation of life after death.... so make what you want of it!

Now, stop getting more off-topic and get back to WWIII....

Kap, its the over arching subject of spirituality, and the afterlife, and the questions about whats around the corner (with wars and death dominating the news)...and comfort when there ARE no answers..

All good Tiro.
thx for sharing

my post is coming, its just that the more i write, the more unsure i am ..each paragraph has created more questions..So im in edit hell, because as it stands right now..my post would be a bowl of spaghetti..and about two pages...  

lol

Great great posts everybody...seriously. and ty for taking it seriously.

I've already pointed out how religeon can be a good thing by instilling morals and giving people hope or "faith." One thing I do not like about religeon though is when people of a particular religeon try to force their beliefs on others.

This has been the cause of many past wars and I'm sure it will cause many more in the future. Egypt conquered the jews and caused them to flee to protect their religeous beliefs.  The United States was first settled by people trying to escape the religeous persecution of the British(and I know the native americans were there first and settled it first but look what happened to them because of these puritans who forced their way on them).  Once a week in Chicago, my house was visited by Jahova Witnesses trying to convince me and my family that we were going to hell.

All three of the previous examples show how one religeon tried to force their beliefs on another. If religeon is based on faith, then why try to force a faith onto someone who has faith in something else? In my oppinion this can only lead to problems in the future. Human beings have a mind that allows them to make choices and believe in whatever they believe in. I think it is just ignorant for one group to say that their beliefs are more true than this other groups beliefs especially when there is little scientific proof that supports one religeon more than another.

That is my main problem with religeon. Not that they are unsupported by actual facts... Not that many religeously active people come off as freaks.. but that these people try to push these freakish unsupported facts onto someone who may think differently is uncalled for to me. Allow people to agree or disagree without thinking they are condemned to hell for making a choice you didn't.

When the church held a lot of political power over Europe rich monarchs would raise one son to become King and the other to be pope.

Sheix, I am about to edit the GG rules to say:

"Keeping a forum moderator in suspense by saying you're going to post something big and interesting, then stalling for day and days is an offense punishable with a three day suspension to help said poster to get out of "edit hell". 

I am impatient, damn you!

Daily Show on The End of the World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSsMcg1ZBGE)

 :)

My overall philosophy for everything, including religion is that everything we think we know, or believe is nothing more than our own perspective. Everything we say is our opinion, what im saying right now is my opinion.. and nothing more, and thats all it can ever really be. Thats what i believe in.

With that said, theres a lot of cool ideas floating around in here.. and a lot i felt i needed to respond to...


I too was in catholic school for elementary/high school, and I was told the same thing by a nun. Of course genesis is a 'farse' of course its made up. No one was around during the beginning of the world to write down how it happened. Its a story, a creation myth, if you will. I dont see how you can look at that negatively. I'm not catholic by any means, but every religion you can name has a story for how the world began... i would'nt call any of them 'true' or 'fact' because its impossible for anyone to have that information... and criticizing that doesnt make sense to me.


The belief that ones existance is nothing more than living a certain amount of time, reproducing, and possibly helping civilization is a religion in itself. I dont think its possible to be 'without religion'. You cant get past beliefs... people are always going to be believing in something.


This is exactly what i thought when i read loth's post. I just cant see it working, nothing is that simple. That's not how people behave.

Also, the idea that the religious people of the world should be killed because of what religion has done to the world sounds like nothing more than another religion. You may think youre not religious loth, but you are, everyone is. If youre human, you have beliefs.


I guess my definition of religion is way different than yours. To me, religion is a lot more than just which devine being do you believe exists, or if you believe in one at all. I think its more than belonging to an established religion, or one that has a name. I think its more than just practicing something that a bunch of people also practice. I think everyone is religious in some way, because as i said earlier, everyone has beliefs. Theres no getting past that. I think religion is how you live your life, how you think about things, what you really believe in, not just what you claim to. Just because there isnt a name for what you believe in, doesnt mean you dont believe in anything, or that youre not religious.

Once again, just sharing my own opinion... using my perspective to respond to what jumped out at me, no facts, no truth, no right, no wrong, just expression. That's all anyone can do.

OK, I warned you all..long post..but, im not a bit sorry for it.
I hope you can hang with me.

IN his opening statement Loth unwittingly desribed the true nature of the return of the Christ, Iranian Shaosyant (the Mahdi), The Meshiach, Krishna, Kali, The next dream of Brahman, Buddhist Gesar, Shambalah, Maitreya, Ratu Adil, King Arthur or Barbarossa. All of which require the brink of destruction to appear..to come to save the world.

How exactly? Not a damn clue..but I believe in the power of the human archetypes..all of which contain this SAving, just prior to total and complete annihilation. There are hints to how this may come about...but hints only..so again even those of us who are non religious, but faithful..must rely on that faith, that somehow, in the end, it will be repaired..the schism of mankind against one another. I do not see this happening under the guidance of a war-god however..and Jesus clearly points to the error of the apostles in their interpretation of who or what the REAL father really is.. maybe the god that is leading us down this path of destruction, has a holy, yet horrifying purpose...maybe just maybe jesus told us ahead of time, to look out for his rise to emminence...Maybe Dan Brown had a point...an important point.

The errant destruction of most of humanity while attempting to parlay the interpretations of the FORMALIZED religions, into political control is the PRIMARY warning of almost every single hero savior myth ever written. I think there is a truth under it, begging to get out.. Every single character mentioned above, describes a landscape so similar to Today, that Like Loth, many of us are starting to ask the BIG question.

When you FLUSH, where does the poop go?

I'll make a distinction that he did not, to clarify the direction of my beliefs.
There is the Dogmatic (ritual) Religion and there is Pragmatic (personal) religion.
Dogmatic religion is external, Pragmatic religion is internal.

Dogmatic religion must be destroyed, but Pragmatic religion is necessary to the survival of the human race.
A return to the source..an embrace of universe, and cration, and not the rejection of it.
An embrace of the Earth as a holy temple..not one o be trampled, but one to be worshipped, and kept clean.
Does the war god of the Hebrews respect the earth? NO. do they respect the Mother? No. They claim the earth is evil, and must be dominated..
All redemption is found a the hand of overwhelming force, and subjugation...but there is an alternative.


 "You have not understood me. My words have been spoken too early. I will return once again in order to repeat them." -final words of Gesar-

All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, a time is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is offering service to God.  They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.  I have told you these things so that when their hour comes you will remember that I warned you. -Jesus in John 16:1-4 -

A further point along this line..Jesus continually chides his apostles for misunderstanding his message and intent, and directs his harshest reprimands for Peter and Paul..central foundation figures for the institutional church. In the newly released Book of Judas (Im on the fence on accuracy of this one, although is proven to be a valid document contemporary with the new testament books) BUT, a central message here, again is that Jesus tells Judas that he will be vilified, but eventually exonerated, while the god of the apostles would be revealed as the God of Hate and war..VERy interesting! He says to judas, You know whence I came (the realm of Barbelo-wisdom spirit) and their (apostles) god is not MY god..

 "O people! a time will come to you when Islam would be capsized as a pot  is capsized will all its contents. O people, Allah has protected from that He might be hard on you but He has not spared you from being put on  trial. .' [Qur'an 23:30]"  -Mohammed- (Islam will stray far from its origins.  As a result Mahdi will be judged by what Muslims think Islam is and not by what Mahdi will tell them about Islam. EXACTLY as The words of Jesus are misunderstood because of the unholiness of the formal church)

 So my point so far has been to demonstrate the warnings embedded in every source religion (against itself) , about the apostasy of those that carry the ritual torch into the future. We are witnessing the warping of ideals that will eventually destroy the world..or most of it. We are at this threshold today. And in the particular scenario of nuclear war we face..BOTh sides are claiming hold on prophesy, leading two immovable ideoolgies directly into a clash. Neither side realizes the warnings of their prospective source mythology is referring SPECIFICALLY to them.

Now..assume they do clash.
I agree with Fah that at first, and for some time to come, survival will be the ONLY impetus to move humanity forward, and some of that will be ugly.  It will also depend on the ideological makeup and physical strenth of the groups that survive. If a majority are modern progressives, there is a chance of true revelation to the survivors concerning the negative power of Dogma, but at the same time, as new rules and laws are written reflecting the new mental state of the survivors, those rules run the risk of becoming dogmatic all over again..such as Loth states..outlawing 'Religion" and Killing of religious figures or believers, which of course, would turn into a religion of its own. I would actually anticipate a period of dog eat dog, which would then evolve into laws of the Collective. At the point that the groups realize that there is again an advantage to a collective entity..as hobbes states in his 17th Century dissertation "Leviathan", there will be a social agreement to put aside the laws of nature (one on one survival) to adopt and create another Leviathan..The State.

What would be the nature of the New State?

unanswerable question from here..but Mankind will have a massive choice.
Will religion be outlawed? Or will there be a NEW religion, one born of the trial by fire?
The christians believe In a thousand years of Peace (but of course the attribute it to the return and physical leadership of christ)
I think its possible..but perhaps unlikely in that literal sense...But make no mistake, i personaly believe in a return to earth  of a redeemer. No idea who or how exactly, but i believe that humanity will come full circle.

One of Albert Pikes stated objectives in his Treatise on the Goals of the Illuminati (on the fence bout them, and whther they are an actual group)) is that he wants religion BANNED, as well they know, it has been the source of much of the conflicts man has ever faced...under the guise of resource wars...
Loth, is onto somehting..since that desire to eliminate war may indeed point to the culpability of religion.

BUT does it point to the culpability of God? Is god religion? Is faith in God religious, or is it intuitive?

Here is where I offer what has been a theory of mine..and it relates to a particulr piece of imagry from Revelations, that for the most part remains unexplained..and untouched by theologians...well, its hinted at... this may well answer the question: "What happens after/during armageddon??"

The real god WILL return however (or at least, be completed in terms of Holy opposites), just before our total destruction to save us...
Im going to attempt to explain the how and why.

I say, The Mother Returns.

PART 2


NO, not the one at walmart buying menthols and Pimento cheese, for sammiches, but THE great mother..the one that was forced to step aside once the hebraic war gods of the middle east took the world by storm. The great mother Named Sophia, or Barbelo, Gaia..etc.... Hinted at in the, mystery of the Virgin Birth (reflected in almost every single source-myth mankind has ever adopted), and the woman cloaked in the fire of the sun, in Revelations, who for a time and times, is forced to retreat to the wilderness, becuase of the great red dragon poised to swallow her offspring. (the earthly , corrupted religious system) She was worshipped in pre columbian tribes, shown as the fat little mother goddess.and given image and homage in every single agrarian culture that walked the earth. her wisdom is supreme, her powers of creating acknowledged.... she was even ackowledged from the time of creation, in the Bible as the one who walked with the Lord, and watched him breathe upon the face of the waters in Genesis, The books of Enoch, The Apocryphal Biblical texts, and a Fundamental portion of all gnostic texts written as contemporaries of the Bible, but Rejected at Nicea. She was the one with God when he moved across the face of the waters..the immovable one, the unborn one, the one who gave birth to....Samael. Saklas, Yaldoboath......Lucifer.

Something happened when the shephardic religions gain hold..most noted for being the FIRST relions that brushed aside the historical notion of the feminine wisdom for the dominance of the patriarchy. Her name and her function were erased form the memory of mankind. But not completely.
There are still hints at her presence. Some of them hidden inplain sight. I believe strongly that part of the attraction to The DaVinci code dealt with Mary Magdalenes part to play in the divine drama. Admittedly, Much of my theory is intuitive, but it IS based on a tendency, a pattern across humanity, buried in texts new and old, buried in plain sight of fairy tales, myths and creation stories.....and that is the return of the loving mother after the household has been smashed by the authoritarian father.

Not long ago..i had a dream..which illustrates, this intuitive (and perhaps collective unconscious desire for her return-(bigger than myself alone))..and the conclusion leads me to believe that she would be well received after the destruction of the next world war. SOMEONE, some god figure would need the traits and the influence of the MOTHER to return us to our innocence..forgive us our sins against her and the earth (perhaps one and the same) and be returned from the exile of the punitive, exclusionary patraiarchal rule.

In this dream, i was arguing with an intimidating church/football kid i went to grade school with. Joey. that motherfucker was huge, and strong, i mean REALLY strong, and the other 12 of us 6th grade boys knew that we were going to have to submit to his will, until we graduated.(so in my dream, he represented an authority, that i was forced to submit to) So for some reason in this dream, this guy was advocating the general opinion of evangelical churces....basically y that of the TOTAL defense of isreal, and the culmination of armageddon, and all that these items entail, in middle american bible school references. (ABSOLUTE evidence that i think about this shit wayyy too much) The faith in the bible, the faith in jesus, the belief that women should not participate in leadership positions in church. (This stemmed fromt he fact that our 6th grade teacher was the first female Episcopalian Priest in that half of our state, and the Church of Christers were BENT about it--We called her Father Donna McGoo-last name McGee)

And whatever we were arguing about, we were getting heated..and Joey was getting really mad at me for saying that women DID have a right to play a role in the church, and he was quoting verses at me left and right about why God said they couldnt...(still in dream mode) How they cant lead, how hey should stay quiet etc..and he asked me how and why, i could ever blaspheme to say that the return of god to the earth would EVER appear as a woman. (now keep in mind, a big kid like Joey, had a Bigger dad who dominated poor Joey in every way possible)...not cruel, but absolute dominatation..he couldnt argue, he had to do what he said, was physical with him at times..so i knew that his dad held a HUGe influence over him, and effected him psycologically. So in this dream, i used this example on him:

I said.. Say you and your dad are working on the car, and you see him putting the alternator on incorrectly, and you tell him, but he just bulldogs you down.. He knows what hes doing etc...and from that point on, becomes sort of a bully...(as men can do to each other when fixing shit, mostly out of male pride) And he starts in about how 'you dont know shit about cars, and who are you to tell him how to fix this thing', being a kid..and you start to mouth off, because youre tired of being patronized. NOW the fathers mad, because youre arguing, and what was intitially a father-son venture to fix the car, has turned ugly..So ugly in fact..that you want out..but you cant. Youre stuck with him until that carb is fixed and the alternator is in place...When all of a  sudden..Mom shows up (she can hear you two from all the way in the kitchen, fussin at each other) with slices of pie, a knowing smile, and some nice cold Iced tea...to break you two kids apart and love on you a little bit, becuase she knows just how stubborn and prideful her husband can be. She hugs you and tells you "You know how your father is..let him cool off a bit, then youll get that car fixed. I know you will"..then hugs you..

Now THAT sort of relief, is what i expect when the mother figure returns..a global ice tea, and a time out.

IN the dream, big ole Joey broke down in HUGE sobs of relief, thanked me, retracted his position and hugged me. I turned him with that argument..
It is, after all, the perfect analogy.  I just knew that i was back onto something, somewhat an answer to my big questions.. Something good..something pure, something that didnt necesarrily contradict the bible, and would FIT the mold of a return to GOD, with true forgiveness at its root, and somehting an entire PLANET could grasp...eventually...even if it meant suffering up to the point of our own self-destruction.

OMG..part 3?


This fighting over our Gods, makes me recall another dream i had once..where all of mankind was called out onto this big plain, to witness someting cool..some specialeffect or something..so everyone went. Billions of us. and at first, it was a carnival atmosphere..everyone anticipating that BIG something, all anxious, excited..happy even..but as ther e were so many people..there had to be some organization applied to the gathering. So people started grouping according to interests, and race. Americans here, mexicans there..africans over there..and then, we started squabbling over water, and food, and space..then some fights started, then more..then soon, the entire plain was engulfed in a massive weaponless brawl. When all of a sudden...twelve angels the size of skyscrapers, flew in formation over that plain. everyone stopped fighting just to look at them they were Immense..and powerful..and their flight was loud..like the ripping of heavy cloth. And as they passed overhead..the sky split apart behind them. Bright desert sun was replaced by a black so deep it looked like ink was spreading over the sky..it was as if the sky itself had been unzipped. And as they crossed the horizon...the ink-like blackness had covered the entire sky with small bits of sunlight on either horizon.. As soon as they were out of sight, the last bit of light disappeared with a giant, and heavy THUMP. then...total darkness.

At that point, in ONE instant..all of humanity knew what had happened. We had permanently been separated from the light, and would dwell in that utter ink darkness forever. I can still hear the screams of realization today, and I think of that dream almost daily. We had our chance..we gathered for something, all of us..and turned it evil. And we were being punished for it. To hear a billion people realize at the same exact instant, that they had separated themselves from God...makes the hair on my neck stand straight up when i think of it..as it is doing right now. That thought keeps me frantically banging on that door, even if i gotta bang on a thousand doors..someone has to know, that im looking for it, as hard as i can, as sincerely as I can. I do not want to ever hear those screams again...ever. Im imperfect, stupid and perhaps even evil at times, but dammit, im knocking on doors..anyways. I do NOT want to be in the dark like that...i really dont.  Something has gathered us, on the plains, fighting over whatever we think god is..all of us..inherently correct in our assumption that we have got THE formula.  What fucking ARROGANCE!!! ..Bush has it, Iran has it, Isreal..Judaism, Islam, Hinduism..ALL of em..but guess what, when they burn it all up, i think they will see those angels. I dont want to be in either camp when that happens thank you. And ya know who would be guiding each of these leaders onto that Plain? Their God. Their God of War. The god of war that JESUS warned his apostles about..but they never got the message...

I believe that it has been a crime against humanity to suppress the knowledge of the feminine principle known and revered in EVERY single pre Arabic/semitic religion..and the inherent wisdom in its conception. We have been under the leadership and guidance, of a god that was basically war-like and retributive. Much like a real father...Now..Im all about the unity and the paradox, so I can mesh the 'opposite' principle into a relateable and believable myth. One that gives me comfort, and explains at least part of the the bible, in terms i can understand. Basically, this myth helps explain the violence of the Old Testament God, with no unacceptable paradoxes..contrasted with the intended salvation of the New Testament..

Now, Ill disclaimer myself here, to say that this is just a culmination of a bunch of theories already out there.. Im not putting forward anthing new...NOR am i outright saying that i believe this. Im still seeking..and i present this only as an insight to MY thinking process.. This particular iteration of the myth, sounds intuitive to me, and makes some sense TO ME. You may find it utterly unacceptable. Thats OK. Im as stuck as the rest, and i (in the end examination..dont really have a fucking clue either). So dont take me entirely literally here..again, just a thinking process, that sounds relevant TO ME.

In apocryphal writings (those contemporary with the bible, but suppressed by the council of Nicea) we have the story of Sophia (wisdom) who seeks to bring forth her own offspring, but due to the influence of the Archons (evil angels) she created without the consort of the One father, and brought forth an abomination, Samael (The Blind One-Satan) He is imperfect because his creation did not have the blessing of the father. As a result, Sophia is cast down into the world of matter, with her abominated son, who  realizes that since he has the divine spark of creating(without understanding its source), has the power to create his own world (ours) along with a host of angels to support and worship him. According to these texts, he is our creator god, the war god of the Hebrews and Old Testament and the father of The LIE, and becuase of his ignorance of his source, declares..I am the Lord, I am a jealous god and there are no other gods before me. the bible hints at this downfall, but attributes it to an angel, as opposed to the one that created our world..But also within the christian Myth, it is acknowledged, that Lucifer DOES INDEED have control in this world..(we have a hidden problem-having the creator god, be the bad guy goes a long way to explain the corruption of our system, as he is the FaTHER of the LIE)..Now this is the FIRST deadly sin..and the entire heavens know about it. Mother sophia cries out in horror, because now the holy father will know that she created without his blessing. As a result, both mother and son are cursed, and Samael is cast down to earth to rule over it (goes a LONg way to explaining how a WAR god might gain preeminence, and lead us all to our own destruction--and this would be the ONE lie, that people would be afraid to question...calling the creator god the bad guy is a  HUGE step..and one not to be taken lightly). Gnostic myths recount that  he gave away his secret by declaring that there were no gods before him..and if there were no other gods, what gods was he speaking of in his warning to his created angels?... OK, o there we have the  first story of the fall...Mother Brings forth a bad son, to be countered in matter at a later date, to correct this indiscretion, by ANOTHER virgin birth, one which will redeem sophia and redeem the world. In this version, the fall of mankind has been pre-ordained and is not the result of Eves indiscretion in the garden. by this story, eve has not been tempted by the snake, but enlightened by him. ( all other pre arabic religions held the snake as a creature of wisdom) She has been enlightened to the existence of good and evil..something that even the creator God was unaware of, and in his attempt to keep mankind at sleep, explains WHY they were instructed NOT to eat of the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and evil. That knowledge alone, makes us more holy that a spirit, that while is a creator, does NOT contain the blessing of the divine. That fruit was given to mankind to raise it above the selfish creator god, so that we may someday return to the Fullness of the house of the TRUE father. The father above Satan, Above the world, and indeed above our local heavens, where the evil angels dwell..(the ones incontrol of what we think or who we think god is, the ones guiding us to WAR over our model of god....which seems to me an arrogant assumption, just as Lucifer is accused of making before God) This destruction HAS to be a foreshadowing of the coming redemption. A part of her punishment has been banishment to the wilderness..where her influence has  not been felt in the world of matter for a long long time. Theres the first half. The mother bringing forth the Evil son.

The second half, the redemptive myth, is that which recounts the virgin birth of Christ. We have Mary- the counterpart to pre-worldy Sophia, who brings forward the redeemer of mankind..and sophia herself. In western iterations of this story, mary is but a bit player, however, as you see in South american cultures, Marys importance is paramount..almost equal to that of the birth of christ himself. IN contemporary south american catholicism, we are supposed to believe that the creation myths of the earth mother have been supplanted by the catholic myth, when IN FaCT, it was the other way around. Catholicism, has been symbolically overlaid by the ORIGINAL creation myths of the south american people..where the Mother Creating principle was first, and divine. Fear of death and torture at the hands of franciscan monks, forced the religion underground, where under the protection of catholic myth symbols, earth Mother religion thrives today. that is why Mother Mary is held in such high regard, and bestowed with the redemptive power of Christ..or at least supplemental to it.

There is something inherently comforting in this description of a Motherly return or Feminine power, as it has found its way, even into western culture, hidden in our fairy tales...Cinderella, Mother Goose, Mother in the Shoe, Snow White, Princess and the Pea, Little red Riding Hood, Zena Warrior Princess (wife made me include that) Rapunzel...All of these stories that include either the sleeping, imprisoned or helpless feminine, which CONTAINS the rescued, redemptive, RETURN of the power of the feminine, realeased at the culmination of the story. These stories are NOt about romantic love, as we are first led to believe..they are FAR deeper..just like the depth of source mythology.. this CANOT be an accident or some random coincidence...The Myth is the Archetype is the story is the hinted TRUTH..(maybe) This is why the DaVinci code was so inherently popular, and why despite being a fiction, the Church came out IN DROVES to smash it to the ground. There will be NO ROOM for feminine rescue, nor will there be a place at the right hand of god for women in the western iterations of source mythology. Guess what? Its too late, shes already there..And christ made mention of it, by Naming mary magdalene, his favorite apostle..its why she is pictured at the last supper at his right hand, and the one element that dan Brown may have gotten right, was that WOMAN, in contrast to being the source of the Fall of mankind, may be in fact, its Redemption. The True Holy Grail. The apostles absolutely BRISTLE at the fact that Jesus revered mary Magdalene as a Holy vessel, worthy of teaching, worthy of prophesy, and worthy of his blessing, and in fact NEVER got over it. especially Peter..the father of the modern Christian Church.

(im not commenting here, about Jesus impregnating her for a jesus bloodline, or anything else like in daVinci, as there are NO texts to support that, save some 7th century regional stuff.. Im just refering to  that place of Mary at Jesus right hand as a contemporary Apostle..worthy of redemptive service to god.)

It is my belief in fact, that the trinity, has Dis-included the mother. She was rendered inoperative by the hands of the patriarchal church, the political church..the AntiChrist.
As stated in my intitial quotes above, the Church itself (the formal church anyhow) has actually become the AntiChrist, by denying the true sources of creation/redemtion, calling the earth evil, Calling women evil, and the cause of the fall of mankind, restrictions on their intuitive loving influence in worldly matters, and demonizing their participation in the Healing of the World Soul. All other religions, run counter to this diametrically....I wonder why?

We have the Father Son and Holy Spirit, rendered neutral in gender only by the GREEK interpretation of the Pleroma (fullness).  In all pre-greek writing, the Holy Spirit, is rendered female. I cannot help but conclude that rendering the mother or woman a non-participant in the holy developments of the matter-world, has had DISASTROUS consequnces for mankind. We look above for guidance, but only find a strong handed war god (necessary for survival in ancient times) but less so, in these spiritually deficient, less than gentle times. We find only Fear (or mostly fear) when thinking of the father, and all we have to save us is the son. All reactions borne of fear, render violence...not love.  If  "As it is above, so shall it be below" then the MOTHER has a far more important, and hopefully soon to be realized part to play in our redemption.
In fact, its is stated in the bible, that you may blaspheme, the father, and you may blaspheme the son, but you will NOT be forgiven for Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Nothing more blasphemous to me, than rendering HER a nonentity, and shoving her to the side of human history, and calling her the source of all of mankinds suffering. the church may well want to rethink their position on her, before its too late..if its not already.

The manifestation of Sophia in the world is the connecting principle between the feminine figures of redemption from the generation of Eve and the nativity of Our Lady to the love of Mary Magdalen. In this way, Sophia is present in all the relationships of the feminine to the Redeemer Christ. Even so, these three images describe our relationship to the Redeemer as well.

The Soul of the World still suffers. She is the anima mundi who cries out for redemption from the cruel and oppressive system in which she is trapped. The Holy Sophia still sorrows for us lonely ones in this world. As stated in the Sequence of Sophia, “I will never fall asleep upon the green grass, while the earth rings with the cries of the exiles.” We can seem to ignore and often even forget the world’s pain until we remember something better, our true and perfect home above the aeons.

Jesus is the Lion. The Mother is the Dove.

By what mechanical process would this occur? The return of the mother to our spiritual consciousness? i have not a clue.
Is it just another theory like much of the rest? Absolutely.
Is it an opinion? Sure thing..

Would a billion Christians or Muslims embrace a mother figure at this time?
Likely not, but im a HUGE fan of irony..
Perhaps thats the Holy part that armageddon plays..creating such a place of fear in mankind, that we ALL cry out for Mother...

is it an interesting thought worthy of looking at? does it feel right?

Does it answer any of my unanswered questions?
Yup.

Thanks for bearing with me.

 

Sheix is God.

Great post, Sheix.

Albert Pike says: "we see that the thought of a Supreme Being unknown to the Human race [God] produced the Universe which "produced the Spirit, the Mother of the Living, and Wisdom of God. Together with this Primitive Existence, Matter existed also ... eternal ..."

"Buthos and His Thought, uniting with Wisdom, made her fruitful by the Divine Light, and she produced a perfect and an imperfect being, Christos, and a Second and inferior Wisdom, Sophia-Achamoth, who falling into chaos remained entangled there, became enfeebled, and lost all knowledge of the Superior Wisdom that gave her birth. Communicating movement to chaos, she produced Ialdaboath, the Demiourgos, Agent of Material Creation ... Ialdabaoath produced an angel that was his image, and this a second, and son on in succession to the sixth after the Demiourgos ... Ialdabaoath, to become independent of his mother, and to pass for the Supreme Being, made the world, and man in his own image; and his mother caused the Spiritual principle to pass from him into man so made; and henceforward the contest between the Demiourgos and his mother, between light and darkness, good and evil, was concentrated in man."

"And the image of Ialdabaoth, reflected upon matter, became the Serpent-Spirit, Satan, the Evil Intelligence. Eve, created by Ialdabaoth, had by his Sons children that were angels like themselves. The Spiritual light was withdrawn from man by Sophia, and the world surrendered to the influence of evil; until the Spirit, urged by the entreaties of Wisdom, induced the Supreme Being to send Christos to redeem it. Compelled, despite himself, by his Mother, Ialdabaoth caused the man Jesus to be born of a Virgin; and the Celestial Savior, uniting with his Sister, Wisdom, descended through the regions of the seven angels ... and entered with his sister into the man Jesus at the baptism in Jordan."

"Ialdabaoth, finding that Jesus was destroying his empire and abolishing his worship, caused the Jews to hate and crucify Him; before which happened, Christos and Wisdom had ascended to the celestial regions. They restored Jesus to life and gave Him an ethereal body, in which He remained eighteen months on earth, and receiving from Wisdom the perfect knowledge {... Gnosis}, communicated it to a small number of His apostles, and then arose to the intermediate region inhabited by Ialdabaoth, where, unknown to him, He sits at his right hand, taking from him the Souls of Light purified by Christos. When nothing of the spiritual world shall remain subject to Ialdabaoth, the redemption will be accomplished, and the end of the world, the completion of the return of Light into the Plenitude, will occur."

     I'm going to pull a Sheix: I'm working on a longish opinion post when the Word moves me (religious terminology intentional), should be done within a few days.

     In the meantime, here's something I found shortly after writing the initial post, that fascinated me and reiterated some things I've heard elsewhere, and thought for myself. Not to mention the fact that Sheix has mentioned the gist of the article in both this thread and the "what are you reading" thread. http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/Jesus-Without-Miracles1dec05.htm

To get off religion and go back to the ww3 thing... i dunno if anyone heard this but today brittish intelligence intercepted a transmission from a terrorist group, and decoded the message "do your attack now." Apparently attacker planes were headed to Boston, Los Angeles, New York, and Washington

so mini planes from attack planes being commanded to attack cities? All i know is that I cancelled one business trip since I can no longer take anything with me on the plane without checking in bags. I know this could stir up another topic but it kind of relates.

Another mass attack on passenger planes would surely have thrust britain and the US into some new anti terror rage. Thus, for sure WWIII. So they foiled the plot, but now all of american flyers must pay. So my thoughts are, why are americans so against criminal profiling. I mean, i see babies, elderly, frequent business travelers all getting the shake down when our likeliness of air terror is nil to none. Can we finally wake up and realize terrorist fit a certain profile and we should attack accordingly. I support special documents for the business traveler like me, that doesn't make me stand in fruitless lines when all I have is clothes and a briefcase. Right now there are holes to my argument but I don't want to type a sheix long post (nice thoughts by the way), so comment if you wish or carry on.

Heres one point of view that might be a good contrast to all of those "other" posts. (great posts) by the way. And , yes where does the poop go when you flush it?
There is no god. When the oil runs out so does the money for the middle east , a return to the dark ages for our muslim friends.
Oh and lets not forget, we DID put Isreal there. for tactical reasons? There has been a war between the christians and the muslims for 1000 years. THe only thing that is magnifying it now is that black gold that is buried beneath their feet.
Iran is involved in an internal power struggle with the president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad trying to secure more control of the military from the generals and prime minister. They are also conducting a huge military excercise all over the country. They provide a substantial amount of oil to China, China in turn provides them with weapons & nuclear reactor technology. Unless China succumbs to Global pressure and starts squeezing Iran to drop it nuclear ambitions , things are going to get real interesting very soon.
WORLDWAR 3 ? I don't think so. We could wipe Iran off the map in about 7 days. It would destabilize the area and turn Iran into another Iraq so attacking Iran isnt too feasible with our lack of ground troops.
MY SOLUTION:
1. RACIAL PROFILING IN AIRPORTS
2. DRILL FOR OIL IN ALASKA (fuck the polar bears, put em in  a zoo)
3. Make an engine that runs on jizz or poop. (Or sugar{ethanol})
4. If it smells like cologne leave it alone.