*DAMN R6 Forum

One thing that has been discussed for years is a clan size limit.

The *DBL 2.0 will take a new approach to limit the clan size without shrinking your clan.

Your clan can be as big as you want, and single players can be even in more than one clan at a time, because in the *DBL 2.0 each clan has to form a team for each ladder, with a limited player size.

So e.g. clan A has 20 members and participates in a CQB and Adv ladder. For season z they have to form a team CQB with 4 members and a team ADV with 8 players. The rest can form new clans with CQB and ADV teams. So everyone gets to play more.

Players can be in more teams, but not in two teams that play for the same ladder. However since you can be in more than two clans they can create their own clan just for the ladder they want to play.

To sum up: each clan has to create a team for each ladder that plays together. The player number of these teams arelimited to ensure that every clan has the same player resources. If you have more clanmembers that would like to compete in one ladder, or may have to proove that they are good enough for your season team, can  create their own clan with their own team that plays in that ladder.

So contrary to the *DBL 1.0 where you had a huge pool of players available, you will be forced to manage your clan more than before. Take a look which members play often together, and which don't, and decide which team should play for your clan.

If you take a look at the matchlist clans usually play with the same players and many players never get a chance to cb. Now they can, but they still can stay in your clan and may play in other ladders.

I don't understand the point of this rule, don't most clans use the same 4-6 guys for CB's anyway?  Look at all the clans signed up, what clan has used more than 8 different guys for a single ladder?  Whenever I CB [a], [E], Po, [Tribe], [E]......its always the same 4-6 guys in the CB as is the same for my clan.  And what clan with more than 8 players is gona have a player want to leave their own clan and go off and start a new team with a bunch of noobs?  We have to go out now and tell the 9th, 10th.... man on our clan rosters "Sorry but you can't play for us anymore thus defeating the purpose of you being in our clan."

I think the *DBL should make the regular season more interesting and fun, have 2 Team ladders for Ghr.  Ghr ADV [A] and Ghr ADV it would be more like 2 different divisions that can still CB each other, clans can then pick a different team of [4-5] players to play on each division.  The Ghr Superfinals are than played between the top clan of the [A] ladder and the top clan of the ladder.  There would be no 4 clan superfinals weekend anymore.  You have the 2 regular season winners of [A] and face off for the league title, thus making the regular season more important because you must win your division to be in the *DBL Finals. 
And then to make it more interesting and fun, if your clan wins the ladder during the season you can merge with your [A] team that didn't win on the other ladder for the Super Finals CB.  It's a team based system where you have 1 clan with 2 teams trying to win one of the divisions.   Larger clans then will not be forced to cut players and not use them.

You exactly name the reason for this rule of having rosters for a ladder:

"its always the same 4-6 guys in the CB as is the same for my clan"

Nevertheless are there clans that have a lot of players, and the other players don't play at all, or simple are not allowed to play. Now these players know that they won't be able to play for this ladder and can form a team on their own under their own tag.

The 8 man for GhR Advanced was just an example. The real numbers aren't decided yet. But it will be close to typical game size + 1,2 player. Many PC ladders have a 4vs4 ladder and you can only have a roster of 4 members.

The purpose is to force you not to accumulate players of player that will never be used, instead you have to form teams that play. The 9th and 10th player in your clan doesn't get to play at all as it is now. So why not be honest and tell him he won't play for this clan at this ladder. May he will be used for another ladder, but if he want to play in this particular ladder, he should look out for other people and form a team.

Further having teams for ladders instead of one clan that plays on certain ladders, makes it easier to allow players being in more clans that play different games. Right now you have to create another account if you want to be play GhR for clan A and RvS for clan B.

ITS UN FAIR

we have like 18 players cause we like to be together not mainly for cbs and  cause some guys can CB only during there holidays so we will make them cb

some can cb always

in ur system the gyus that can cb during some days a year wont be abble to cb

plus ur system is gona make ranks inside clans (best players in team A rooster A)and then creat tentions its not very bright
in our clan there is no rank, there is not even a leader, we all vote mainly almost all decisions ,so only having to set many teams gives me cramps

ok will see

I just can't see the [E] clan and [Tribe] cutting their clan roster down to 8 guys and the rest of their players going off and starting a new clan. 

that dosn't have to happen, think of it like this:  [GB] clan have loads and loads of players. Some play a lot some play less. they all want to be able to play though. the most active 8 or perhaps the 'first 8' register on the ladder as [GB-1] team  and another 8 of the clan guys register as [GB-2] team... same clan, two different teams, twice the chance of your clan taking a top rank with one of its teams...

rgr Bfg it could be good but it will creat tentions and also it will push some players not to CB at all anymore

it will also make some players switch there log in to play cause some guys from the GB1 is not there

rgr ghost, well this is after all a dev blog, im sure things will get tweaked along the way, and i think its more than possible that mauti will make sure that players cannot make multiple accounts as you've described.

I really think in the long run this reform is necessary. The player shortage is killing the community. Several things that need to be considered are as follow:

Z-1 vs Z-2
The situation where "Z" has multiple entries on the same ladder in a head to head situation. Has it been considered that one may simply "toss" a few games in order to boost the higher of their teams near the end. The real question remains as to how this can be done. The thing would have to become a "judgement" call; after all there would be no way to regulate it.

Suggested Solution
A) Stricter limitation on "intraclan" battles. Perhaps limit the clans to 3 clan battles per season, and ban clan battles between them in the last few weeks.
B) Completely ban them
C) Pure admin decision on a per case level.

---

I really don't see how making mega clans in the old system helps the problem. At least with this new system we can compromise between limiting the clans, whilst increasing the number of active teams. Probably this is the best idea to appear yet for the problem.

You should also make it so that, within each clan, you can move players from one team to another team throughout the season.

First yes this is only a dev blog, and not everything will come 1:1 as posted.

As BFG stated your clan can still have as many players as you want. But you have to decide who will play for you during a season. Right now many players join a clan and hope to get some action, one purpose of having a clan, but never see any cbs because most clans play always with the same guys.

Contrary to BFG, my plan was that only one team per clan can participate. The rest needs to form a new clan with a team for this ladder or sit around idle. Being in a different clan, doesn't mean you have to give up "friendships". So you don't have to break up your clan for the *DBL, but may some players may split and create a new team under an own clantag to have some cbs in this ladder.

One of my goals is to show especially new clans that you should create a strong team, instead of collecting a huge amount of players that play sometimes together, you can do this without the *DBL as well. The *DBL means competition, so teams should play frequently together, and achieve something together.

@ Mysterio: well in conjunction with divisions teams with players that are also in the same clan are probably scattered around.

About cheating:  nowadays clans could do the same with clans that don't have a chance to make it into the finals and persuade them to lose in the end of the season. The problems are the same.

Fake clans etc…

Also logging in under a different name, was possible already for all previous seasons. So you could cheat and play for 2 clans in the same ladder…

Ahh sorry, i missinterpreted that!

No problem, it's also an idea. I think a lot about it.

I just think then some clans would even grow bigger to have many teams per ladder.  At all the difference is minimal: one difference is that only one team contributes to the clan's overall ranking and especially new clans are aware that they can only recruit x players for this ladder. Anything else doesn't make sense.

At all if you name the team GB and GB1 or have a clan GB and GB1 and teams with the same name is almost no difference. Feature wise each clan has their own overall ranking and awards are won by one team and not a few teams on the same ladder.

Both has its pros and cons.

I think one problem is that for many guys nowadays a clan is becoming more and more only a buddy list, but for a league a clan is group that plays together versus other clans. However if you don't get to play for the clan  the purpose of being in a clan is gone. At all you want to play with your buddies and you want to play  in certain ladders. If the team in your clan, where also a part of your buddies are, is full, group a new team under a new clantag with clanmates(buddies) that haven't made into the team as well.

In the *DBL a clan is a group of teams that play under the same tag for different ladders. If there is already a team with this clantag, create a new one. Your buddies are still the same and in GameRanger you can still play some noncompetition games together.

Even if there is a lot of resistance to this, the change is needed. Back in the old days, a clan could be competitive in RS ladder with 4 or 5 people (well once even just two ;)) and many new clans in the RvS ladder as well. I can't speak for the GhR ladder, so I won't, but the number of players has nothing to do with success of the clan.

If I interpreted correctly and you said people in a clan (ClanA), but not on a team, could join/make another clan (ClanB) that has a team, while staying in ClanA; there should be no cause for complaints. There are many people who are in clans for the sentiment and memories as well; this may draw a few of them to competitive clans, boosting number of players.

List of successful clans under 8 players (from RS):
• Fire
• MP5
• The Untouchables
• RiP
• MoD (no relation to new one)
• SWAT
• (Most of the time under 8) KoS
• ooa (ººª)

There have been many clans that succeed with few players. Most of the RvS clans have not exceeded 8 active players. I don't think core had more than 8 when they won. You can all still be friends and all; but that was what the "sub-clan" of old was all about (aHa, jnewbs). It seems that that mentality transfered to full clans, hopefully the team system will bring more activity.

I'll put some thought into your info on the dummy clans (fake ones); there has to be some overly simple solution to this...

I don't mind this idea as a whole, I think it could work for some clans but it won't for work others. My main concern is not the splitting of the clan but the fact that you are selecting a certain amount of people from the clan that are ALLOWED to cb while the others aren't. Look at {E} for instance, allowing 8 people to cb isn't a good thing for them even if they do have a sub-clan because they are so many people, there will still be about half the clan who aren't ALLOWED to cb at all. I personally think that having everyone in the clan elegable to cb is the best way to do it.

The size of the team will depend on the ladder, but when you take a look at E, you can already split who mainly plays RvS, who plays GhR, etc. Then you gonna see less players are affected.

You are right that this measure will hit bigger clans more than new clans that already have this limit in mind while recruiting players.

Nevertheless i think clans will adapt to it, and may advanced statistics like times people are online, player ratings will help to make the decision easier who can join and who can't. The members will probably understand and can create a new clan while still being in their beloved "mother" clan.

We can't just focus on the impact of the changes today. Through out the next season there is a high chance of more games being played with more competitive teams.

We really need to look at it like this:

Now we have say 5 active clans: V,W,X,Y,Z
..on the ADV ladder:
V has 5 active members;
W has 12 active members;
X has 20 active members;
Y has 4 active members, and;
Z has 16 active members.

After the change there would be the following clans (# of players in brackets) [mother clan - #]:
V(5), Wshs [W-1] (7), Wtyxiyh [W-2] (5) , MacClan [X-1] (5), Raven's Shield [X-2] (5), Caped Crusaders [X-3] (5), Flying Frenchmen [X-4] (5), Y (4), Untouchables [Z-1] (6), Bold Moves™ [Z-2] (5), and Creatively Out of Ideas [Z-3] (5)

Thus there were 5 clans, now there are 11 clans; an increase of 220%. This is a best case scenario; but even if clans that didn't have to split decided to split into smaller factions would cause a significant increase.

It's a small sacrifice (without any real loss) in order to make the community more competitive.

It seems to me this proposal does not solve anything.  The number of people in a clan does not have much to do with who is actually able to show up for cbs. This discussion seems to use {E} as an example, which is fine as we have a large roster (note that many are not too active).  {E} does not have a policy of letting some members play and some not, we pretty much go with whoever is online and wants to play.  Even with our large roster it is often difficult on any given day to field a 4-person team for CBs.

If the roster is split into smaller 8-man teams, won't it be even more difficult to get games going?  Splitting up into smaller teams or clans will increase the number of clans/teams, but I don't see how it will increase the number of available players (or the number of games).

How about forming inter-clan teams of individuals from all clans for a particular set of matches?  I suppose this would only work for scheduled games and keeping track of the standings might be a nightmare.  We have a pretty good stat tracking system now, perhaps more of an individual contest with varying teams would be interesting.

I think the idea would be for the users to responsibly select what their teams would consist of. The people in each team won't be forced; thus, I would hope that the users would know who is usually online and available at the same time that they are. The way I see it, there is far more to gain than there is to loose from trying. After all, this method is breaking up the clan.

I hope that Mauti can make it easy for members to move around pretty simply. There has to be a more free flow of members for this system; that would be my main concern with this system right now.

There are pretty cool ideas here.

I think that it would be great, if a clan can afford it, to register two "teams" for a season (Call it w/e: Team A & B or I & II, etc.). But I do not like the idea of clan members just switching back and forth from one team to another during the main season (it defeats the purpose of allowing more members to play and same guys can just be going back and forth - over and over (unless we limit the amount of times this switches can happen: such as to cover for an absence, etc (but again limiting it to 1 or 2 times per player through the season)). Instead, once the Finals begin, those teams from the same clan (in the case both teams made the cut) should be allowed to re-assemble (switch members, etc.) rosters for the Finals.... But after they Finals begin, no more switching between the clan teams should happen once again.

I do not believe this will necessarily bring division among clan members, but more opportunity for all members to get playing time and experience. Furthermore, since right before the Finals teams can be reassembled, the strongest players from both teams can join to form an even more solid team, or stay the same, etc. It's up to the clans... In the end, whoever wins it wins it for the whole....


Another event I would enjoy to see happen, is to have a sort of All Stars Match (this has been proposed before - but nothing has happened). Maybe we can create two Divisions whithin the same ladder, and have inter-league games as well as games whithin your division throughout the main season... this way each team from a same clan can represent one of the Divisions... etc. The All Stars Game can be made up with members whithin the same division, to go up versus the Star members from the other division.The Stars could be selected by the team Leaders of each team whithin the division, say 2 per clan or giving the higher ranked cland 1 more representative than the lower ranked clans, etc....

The Season Finals could be the top 4 teams from each division - going up versus the other (1a vs 4b / 2a vs 3b),etc.  Then the winners go to the super final!

guys we have seen in the past , clans-"bis" that were created  (one made by stripe and is brother if i remmember well) that would CB together just to make some points. can we see this again with this rooster? if tribe has to creat a clan B and then i could ask this clan [tribe]B to loose against [tribe]A just to make more points!! possible?

If a clan has said 2 spare extra players, I believe according to mauti earlier, you can be in more than one clan – just not more than one team. This theoretically would allow the extra players to form their own clans and make more active teams. I guess the question would be if that team formed failed to make the finals and the original clan from any given member did, who would be able to call up what players.

I would propose a system where a player would be tied to one "primary clan," but they could join a "sub" or "secondary" clan that they could compete in a team with during the season and if they make it to the finals there as well. Assuming they fail to make the finals, the "primary" clan's teams can call up their players from any failed subclan. Just an idea.

I offered up a few solutions to this situation in an earlier post; read those and mauti's answer and see if that answers your concern.

One thing with the teams is not the present. You always look at the current situation however the reason for teams is the future.

I want that new clans found raisonable sized clans. That's the main point. If you can have only x players for the ladder you don't recruit more for it. You probably invest more time to train your team. So the problems we are talking about may happen to the old clans, but probably don't to new ones.

You could have always created a fake clan. The name doesn't matter. However due the challenge system other clans may notice that the clan isn't here. In the present there are no ways that a clan has to cb.

Just some thoughts.

I can only speak in Po's behalf. My teammates would be against any sort of manipulation of the sort. Our guys are so competitive, that I'm certain Team I and II would fight hard versus each other - to gain points and bragging rights. Plus, the idea here is to try to classify both teams in both divisions; if a team sacrifices itself for the other, then they are only screwing themselves, plus lose the opportunity to prove to their teammates who is better! Not fun at all!

Face the fact !!!

Gr is almost dead !!!

I dont think you or me can do annything about that...SORRY

I love thae game but what to do whgen all players go other games...


Sorry but i think its like that!!!!

Rosters aren't only for GhR - all ladders and games will have team roster.

So are you suggesting we don't try anything and just burry it! Well, that's just dandy!

Implementing cool new changes, such as new maps, new game types, improved rules, will reenergize the playing.

Monoman just created a new WZ type, and already peeps are playing it for it is fresh and gives a feeling of challenge once again. If one game type was able to cause such hype among the players, imagine what additional thoughtful changes could bring!

But thanks for your positive energy, the world could not rotate without such optimism.... would just roll over and play dead!

I love the idea of having a 2 division Ghr ladder.  Before the season starts the *DBL should do random pulling of clan names and then seperate them into two divisions.  Then make it so your clan must CB every other clan in your own division twice and clans from the other divison once. 

It would sort of be a schedule system because each clan would have to complete the required CB's but leave some leeway such as you only have to play or complete 10 of the required 14 CB's in order to qualify for the finals.  The 2 clans that are the divison winners get to play in the *DBL Finals. 

Also then mid-season or end-season you use Tirofino's All-Star game idea where each clan chooses a represenative or person that wants to play in the All-Star game, Division 1 All-Stars would then play Division 2 All-Stars.

It's a fantastic idea!!!

Best idea I've heard come through the *DBL in ages.  That's not meant as an insult to the *DBL either.

Having a 4 person team play in a league that requires 4 people to play in for each game makes no sense and would be a season filled with forfeits.

If you read on this was an example what a popular PC league does.

Team roster size as posted above will probably be  the default amount of players * 2.

Small clans can do very well in the ghr ladder. Myst pointed out the clans that were small but active in RvS. I will do the same for ghr.

[01] - 10 member max but always had a shot at the finals.

[?]  - had only 4 member all season but placed 2nd in the ladder overall with the most cb's played of any clan in the ghr ladder for that season.

{S&C} (sar and crypt) - dominated the cqb ladder, winning the season.

[:] - another great ghr clan with I think only 4 or 5 members all season who also made it to the finals when they played.

Actually, DrK is the largest clan I've been in for some time. We have already started a ranking system in DrK which players can see by our armpatches. Those members who have more stars are ranked higher. Weather this will decide who plays for us in the new DBL, I'm not sure, but we are discussing it.

Small clans can do fine and it annoys me when players say it can't be done.

If you've got a large clan, figure out when people are on. Group people who are often on together on the same team.

Ein

i dont read much as i should  on the dbl forums but fact is fact  gr is dieing its fucking sad to see   ::wall::
rvs is fucking  useing its last breath its making me mad every once in while its has a few good nights  then this happrens   (http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5900/rvsisdeadpicnl3lg6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)  maybe the next one should say gr :( ' ' '
 ::nade::

lol lovely photo DEA.

Question is, many people thought that RvS would replace GhR - it never happend for variouse reasons. Gameranger activity is low, very low, and with intel macs etc more and more people have now departed. Are clans that play these out of date games for mac going to remain especially when i see no GhR replacment etc on the horizen.

Small clans can do absolutly fine only if their players are active - your not going to get very far if you have 5 or 6 clan members who only come on once or twice a week at different times. Then again theres no advantage to a 20 man clan if they are all inactive.

Well, or a league to play in?

- i mean, once DBL 2.0 is done.. you'll have nobody playing in it,
a matter of fact.. The R6 games will be dead for sure,
so why not set up a little tourmanent for the clans whos left?

it just saddens to think that u take time out to talk to good people well alot of good people with a few exceptions and get to know them. then  evill cant get enuff back from apple with the games  gameranger need games good games RvS vagas. shit man all the ood people are going  and u cant blame them. well we can balme pedro but u know ....were the fuck is the crying face when u need it  :(

I would tag "For Mac" onto the R6 death statement because Vegas is godly on the PC and X360. There's no way to deny in hindsight that RvS was terrible compared to it's predecessors -- the only critics of R6:V are those who joined the R6 series at RvS and think that it was a good game. Regardless, Vegas restores a lot of honor lost from the series thanks to RvS and LD.

@ Stripes there will probably an opening event in form of a tourney or something like that.

1.) It's fun
2.) A launch event is good for publicity
3.) No matter how much time I spend debugging - the real bugs only gonna show off under real and daily usage so I gonna need an event to iron out all little bugs before we can start with a full season.

@ DEA nice picture ;-)

so whats happerning with the dbl  cb's tournements. thought they was meant to start jan then i hear feb then feb pass's by then i dont hear nothing WHAT IS GOING ON ¿ ¿ ¿ clans are dieing out there gr is dieing sort it out.  ::nade::

*DAMN is dead DEA, we've been lied to over and over again. GRPA is hosting a Ghr tournament at the end of March "www.grpa.webhop.net". 

For RvS players I guess its all over for you. 

Your picture says it all, I can hear the bag pipes playing amazing grace in the background and the gun shots going off.  ::wall::
Here's video of the RvS funeral, I'm sorry:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4nbYXsXpGk


(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5900/rvsisdeadpicnl3lg6.jpg)

*damn is for sure not dead and prolly will never be.

still, even as user with access to the admin forum, i can't tell any news since mauti is the one to ask and he's already posting everything about the new *dbl here in the public forums...

can't we arange some kind of *DBL Tourney until mauti is done with 2.0?
just a thought....