*DAMN R6 Forum

apple have gone and done it http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/04/05/bootcamp/index.php

http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/

and on a personal note.. i can't quite believe i got this in first before civic, BFG, ethion or myst...

HOLY SHIT WIGGY YOU BEAT ME TO IT!! :D

So this fall when i finally get my intel tower i can load up BF2 and HL2 and loose my job, my GF, the ability to socialize, and a resistance to sunlight... cool um..

So does this really spell a death knell for the mac gaming industry? How can the likes of Aspyr compete?

Would you prefer to play the games you want (say like Ghost Recon 3) at the speeds you would expect, but on a horrible OS, or would you prefer to be only able to play a handful of the games you want, at sub par speeds on the best OS in the world?

Remember BFG.. the bottom line is where you will get support for this accomplishment. Not from Apple..nor Microsoft.

It mostly goes down to the graphics drivers, when it comes to games.

Even Evill said that the mac gaming community is dead.

But we have to remember, this is going to take a while to have any effect, really. I can't really go on explaining it, but it's nothing that's going to happened over night.

Some site is probably going to some new benches the following days, and we will see what happends.

Woooot...

And a Big Ole Middle Finger Dee-luxe to the smarmy little shit who sarcastically enlightenend me to the 'fact" that Running Windows was NEVER the intent of the new Intel-macs...and that i just didnt know what i was talking about.

*cough* - Oh Reaallly??

You know who you are. eat it.

rofl shiex, i can't remember who it was but it looks like that statment backfired...

although, i don't think it really was the main intent of the intel macs (did apple honestly think, hey if we make intel macs then eveyone can run windows instead?) - more so an answer the the clamoring of people who want the ability - and the impressive hacking achievements of those few at www.onmac.com

question remains though, is this the death bed of mac gaming?

w00t, a friend of mine just tried a few Windows games (Quake 4 and CS:S) and they all run with GREAT performance and FPS! All hardware is supported, there's 80MB of drivers included. I can't wait to get an Intel-Tower soon and play GhR3! :D

But of course, XP for (unreleased) games and OSX for everything else. I certainly won't start surfing around in XP and catch some viruses etc. :)

And the headlines soon: "So far biggest and strongest virus for Windows discovered - Mac OS X" ;D

Apple has released beta software dubbed "Boot Camp" to help owners of intel Macs load and boot Windows XP.

http://www.macosrumors.com/

http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/

Stock jumped 5 points off this announcement. 

I think this is the biggest single move Apple has ever made.  Yes, that is a bold statement but of think of what this means for the future strength of the mac.

1) It's a huge safety net for prospective crossover or switch buyers.  Apple has now removed the most powerful reason to avoiding switching to the mac.  In all honesty, it's no longer really a switch. 

2) It let's Apple directly compete with pc manufactures, while keeping Apple's core business safe. There is only room fro growth.  Their brand is already strong; now it's taking those loser PC manufactures like Dell head on.  I smell the righeous retribution of Jobs on someone's ass... 

3) Gaming.  Apple  - like almost all pc manufactures - is going to offer gaming rigs.  I think they will do especially well in the high end gamer side of the business because they have brand apeal and excellent, top shelf manchines.  Call me crazy, but I think gaming will drive a lot of switch overs.  It's going to drive mine.  I'm now going to buy a MacBook when the gaming rig comes out. Plus, with Apple making their own windows drivers we can expect them to be excellent.  This could be a "killer app" for Apple and gamers.  Performance performance performance. 

3) Apple makes better computers to begin with. 

Woot woot, Apple.

http://www.mactechnews.de/index.php?function=2&id=145

In German, but good enough.

Mac Porting houses are dead.

I don't see this as a bad thing at all.  You read peoples responses to topics like these and it's all "Now I can finally play CS, Halflife" and all the new games so you know that this is what we've wanted, games which finally run at a proper speed. 

Aspyr, Macsoft ect. can now focus instead of porting to producing their own games.  Both of which have already done this.

This is a very good thing for me considering the Engineering department at my college required a Windows computer, now I can just get a MacBook Pro instead!

This is great news.

Grrr... beaten to it...

I think mac gaming houses are dead.  I think mac ports are dead.  But the Mac as a gaming system is not.  It'll continue to be a niche. 

I'm hopeful that Apple will deilver some excellent gaming rigs.  There's no reason they can't end up competing with companies like Voodoo or Alienware.  Apple sure does charge enough money for their machines...

Besides the funny "Word to the Wise" side bar section on the Public Beta site, there is also a direct mention to Mac OSX Leopard. This might just be there re-enforcing rumors that Leopard will support virtualization of Windows inside of OSX.

Overall, Apple can only benefit from this as people will have a computer that can run windows (better than most PCs, and reportedly faster) and the ability to run the exclusive (by legality) OSX. I doubt we will see any major software companies (Adobe/etc) dropping mac over this, maybe the Game companies will finally just die like they should of when we started getting tripe ports like RvS and AA.

I wonder if they are planning a CSM addition via a later firmware updater. Oh, so exciting. (I'll post benchmarks when I see some).

Edit: http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/04/20060405144257.shtml
(CSM was added)

God Bless the free market.
See?...socialism would have had us scrap macs in the first place so we'd all have to manage our workloads on 1 gig dell laptops...you know..so it would have been fair to EVERYONE.

Feel a little bad for Narf tho...APPLE DUN STOLE YO THUNDAH FOO!
Unless he was an insider all along..which wouldnt surprise me..

OR, he was kidnapped and drugged, and brain-extracted On Steve's Orders, his intellectual content downloaded to Ipod and distributed wirelessly directly to the medulla oblongata's of the manacled team of fifty slave-labor coder-bots feverishly working for the last 18 days straight to get this all written and packaged to LOOK as though it were intended all along.

And if all those Porting houses thought there was Little profit in Mac gaming to give us the ports in the first place..theyre about to find out what NO PROFIT feels like..

SUCKAS!

http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/story.php?ID=13177

IMG got some comments from Game Devs..

And they see it as a good thing it seems.

They sound desperate under their calm replies. Glenda sounded the most "off" by bashing Windows.

Battlefield 2 on Mac :)

http://web.mac.com/richardpride/iWeb/Site/BattleField2%20-%20Intel%20iMac.html

Glenda usually sounds "off".

w0000t, I'm still in shock, in a VERY positive way. :D

I would bet BareFeats will have done dual boot tests soon. Interesting how Apple had the drivers ready for the ATI, I wonder if they planned this all along and were waiting for someone to hack it before they did it themselves.

much better responce than i expected, but they are right; if this means that the mac market grows significantly and people still buy mac games (and the porting houses survive) then perhaps they can take on porting bigger projects..

Its simple, if someone ports a game like Ghost Recon 3 or Halflife2 to mac and it runs as well as or nearly as well as on windows, well im going to do everything i can to avoid booting up windows. In fact given the choice im sure we all would.

I may be mistaken, but I remember reading something (and now it get vague :) ) about Apple and Intel working to create a set of code that will work on both OS X and XP.  Anyone else see something like that? 

If a game is ported and it runs the same as it does on the Windows half I'll play it on Mac.

If a game is ported and it runs any worse then whats the point of playing it on Mac?

I would suggest that this has been in planning for a long time with Microsoft's knowledge which would explain their lack of recent upgrades to mac products and the recent removal of the stand alone WMP app for osx.
Both Apple and Microsoft will see it as a win - win situation.

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/index.html#S20940

Brad Oliver isn't wild about the inpact of this on mac gaming:

It almost certainly spells the end of Mac ports for games that use things we can't license and cause cross-platform issues. GameSpy, DirectPlay - games that use these and end up crippled on the Mac are likely going the way of the dodo as far as Mac-native versions go. Similarly, games that ship with important, but very Windows-centric, editor components are likely out of the running. We'd be foolish to try and ship these things with Mac-only networking now if you can just dual-boot.

Looking back on previous games, these issues would affect Neverwinter Nights (editor), Tiger Woods (networking), Age of Empires (networking), Civ3 (networking and possibly the editor), C&C Generals (networking), Alpha Centauri (networking), EverQuest (networking, although this was never a technical limitation), and Star Wars Battlefront (GameSpy). There are probably other games that were network-crippled, but I don't keep track of those.

Im kinda pissed. As much as i want to play HL, BF2 etc, i think a lot of people forget just what a POS Win is, and that unless everything im expecting doesn't happen, this isn't isn't going to boost the options for game porting houses, giving them more revenue to provide better ports of AAA titles etc, its just going to kill games on mac - maybe not this year, maybe not quite next.. but soon enough

The only companny that is going to earn something out of this deal, is Apple.
Maybe the porting companies in the very very long end.
But when the whole line of products gets into intel. We are going to see less and less games for mac.

But I have to say, for myself. I have felt the so called "mac gaming" community dying.

Apple's move generates a lot of interesting questions however I don't see the dead of the Mac Gaming market yet, which has survived since the first Macintosh 1984. This market was never very big, just take a look how many top games have been ported recently. Just a handful like WoW, Quake4, Doom III and The Sims, which I assume sell all well.

As a consequence I don't see a reason why such AAA titles shouldn't be ported anymore. They still have their Mac audience: namely all PPC MacUser, and I guess so far not even 1 percent of all MacUser have an Intel Mac. Just take a look at this community and ask who owns an Intel Mac? For sure not many. So for at least the next year, maybe even two, depending on the hardware requirements of games in the future, we won't see a big change. The DoomEngine has been ported, so all games that are using it can be converted easily and gonna find their buyers. Further in response to BFG a workaround for the GameSpy networking has been found, and works as we can see in America's Army. Another reason less why the Mac Gaming market will suddenly die.

So where does the Mac Gaming market move? - I think it will stay stable for the near future, and when people complain how bad some conversions are running, they often forget that they are still using it on completely outdated 1 Ghz G4s with even more outdated graphic cards. Once we change to IntelMacs, we all have suddenly good requirements for gaming(leaving out the MacMini), and also the conversions aren't running that bad anymore. Contrary they will start to fly.

However the gaming market as it is today, has already seen better days. Many top notch engines can't be ported due not convertable physic engines or expensive licenses and even some problems are homemade with delayed and feature missing ports. These are the real problem and the rerason for many gamers  to switch to consoles or even a PC. Dualbooting doesn't change this situation, even better it may prevent users to buy an PC and keep sticking with a Mac. Further it may gives you, the veteran Mac User, a reason more to switch quickly to the latest Intel Macs, and beside that you will notice how many recent Mac ports and games you can suddenly enjoy in its full glory.
However because of Dual Booting the porting houses like Aspyr, MacSoft, etc. are asked more than ever to create excellent ports with unique Mac features like GameRanger support. I think Battlefield would have taken another road if GameRanger support would have been there from the beginning, as we can see with Star Wars Battlefront who is in the Game Ranger's top ten. They have to glare with support and features to stay unique and worthy in the eye of the Mac customer.

In the long run maybe the overall situation changes, but if the quality of Mac conversions can keep up with the PC version(a few frames less aside, who cares if the game runs with 120 or 110fps if you can use it in your Mac environment) I still see a lot of customers who want to enjoy the small benefits of playing on a Mac in Mac OS. Further the market share of Mac Users probably gonna increase and so there are more potential Mac Gamers, if porting houses can deliver the demanded support and quality.

Happy End or not, noboday can say for sure, because only the future will show.

I say yes, and welcome a new and exciting era.

Mauti

http://features.uneasysilence.com/mactel/

Who here is actually surprised to confirm that mac OpenGL sucks? Maybe this will force Apple to address this in Leopard.

Has anyone confirmed whether or not the new firmware does allow install from any CD? (If a CSM is present or not)

Something I felt worthy of double posting was the following:

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/04/20060406081519.shtml

The first true virtualization solution has arrived, I'm going to see if I can convince my brother to try this as it isn't a dual boot mess.

Who told you that? Because it was already in the plans that the Macintels would be able to boot vista natively... what a pen0r.

Woah Open GL does not suck. full stop. the end

If however you said 'Open GL implementation in OSX sucks' then id have to agree!

EHEM

Video of BF2 running hella smooth:

http://web.mac.com/richardpride/iWeb/Site/Movie.html

Video of Half-Life 2 running hella smooth:

http://www.cabel.name/2006/04/boot-camp-fi...fe-2-video.html

http://www.tuaw.com/2006/04/05/blue-screen-of-death-on-an-imac/

 ;D


Btw, Shade, your second link is corrupted. Here's the working one: http://www.cabel.name/2006/04/boot-camp-first-look-half-life-2-video.html

After experiencing a"Little" incident, we will not have ANY "Boot Camp" intel Macs on display. Take this as a friendly word to the wise.

Was that a quote or do you work at a reseller? If by incident you mean virus, maybe you should use some nice anti-virus/spyware software. Remember Apple's side of page reminder:

"Word to the Wise
Windows running on a Mac is like Windows running on a PC. That means it’ll be subject to the same attacks that plague the Windows world. So be sure to keep it updated with the latest Microsoft Windows security fixes."

Ok. I'm going to post what I already posted on the AA forums:

"Hypothetically, say, 5, 6, 7 years from now, when PPC Macs are essentially obsolete, what is the motivation for ANY software developers to continue developing anything for OSX?????????????

And if we stop getting software for our operating system... what is the point of the operating system? We'll all be forced to switch to Windows because no software developers will support OSX anymore...

I guess what I'm asking is... will we all be doomed to use Windows as our primary operating system within the next decade? I use Macs for the OS, not for the hardware..."

I think you're all minimizing this to just games...

Sure, this will be fantastic for gaming (not so fantastic for the "Mac community," if such a thing still exists with a shred of humanity...), but I'm not really seeing the difference between Games vs. All Other Software.

If, in the future, (assuming everyone inevitably switches to Intel) everyone is capable of running Windows, why would ANY software developers bother writing ANYTHING for OSX?! Simple economics would dictate that it just isn't worth it...

Unless there is something of which I am not aware (I can't program beyond VBA) that makes writing ALL software (not just games) for OSX far superior/easier/etc to writing them for Windows, then how is this not spelling the ultimate demise of OSX?

I really don't see this happen, because of two reasons:

1.) The Mac User has money
2.) The Mac User spends money, but he won't be satisfied with a Windows version. He wants that applications make use of the all the OS features like Core Audio, Image, Video,... and all other great frameworks you can use as programmer, and if there is a demand applications will be created.

If i look at the applications I use most, there are many Mac Only applications. Why should they suddenly only be available for Windows?
At all I could imagine it the other way around: in the future you can develop on a Mac and deploy everywhere. Which makes the Mac platform even more interesting for developers, especially together with a rumored Yellow Box for windows, creating Mac applications could get another boost! Also Apple is the only company that features the possibility to run all applications you need. It makes a PC really obsolete, if you may need this little Windows applications for your tax declaration.

Since all the years I study computer science I never missed an application on Mac OS, and if I may need this special 3D modeler in the future I can boot quickly in Windows now and use it. Easy as that. Great.

The Mac developing scene has never been that strong, we have never seen that many applications and the user base is growing so I really don't see any reason why a possible Windows boot solution should abandon Mac developers. As cross platform developer you may would save money, keeping out a Mac app, but what Apple taught us all the years, is that Design, Emotions and Usability is important and has a market, that's the reason why we use Macs everyday, and why Apple appeals to us, and that these users will never be satisfied with a Windows version.

The difference between games and software is that the games don't need to interact with other applications, when you start a game you forget the OS, it wouldn't make a difference if you play it on a console, PC or Mac, but as soon as you use a normal application drag and drop things between a few applications, copy and paste, want to send it via Email, you gonna notice the OS a lot.

The only exception for games are multiplayer services like GameRanger, which is the reason from my last post why Mac porting houses have to glare with features and quality more than ever. GameRanger support is for me a unique and enjoyable service and games that make use of it are more appealing than games that don't have this feature.  It creates a feeling of being home, having the overview where your buddies are, etc... There you also will notice the difference between Mac and Windows, and I would prefer a Mac version, if it runs almost as good(a few frames aside due the porting).

So if the Mac keeps being unique in many ways it will be growing and growing. Boot Camp just makes the Mac experience even better. Buy a Mac and don't worry anymore about anything, except some Windows viruses.

And alot of things can happened between 3-7 years.

Wasn't anything to do with Viruses Mysterio.. had to do with the Beta Drivers in Boot Camp.

Roger that.

Anyway, more from Brad Oliver


That last part would be great and really may help keep people on OSX assuming Mac ports play as fast as Windows versions. I'm sure Apple will pull something to make OpenGL out perform DirectX... or not.

We'll just have to hope for the best when it comes to openGL and Leopard.

And hopefully we'll see what Steve will bring us, and there will probably be people testing the beta builds. That can tell us cool stuff.

Sorry Myst i misread your post there :) yeap 100% total agreement. If apple would only pull their fingers out and get Open GL sorted in Leopard then we'd really see what it is capable off! :)

I might actually get to see some of u guys again...thats a positive and a not so positive  ;D . On a side note while i was scrollin down I saw the games u guys couldnt wait to play. BF2...definately worth ur time. HL...ehhh i bought it when i got my pc for CSS but it was a waste of money...if u want CSS buy just CSS. I would definately recommend Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion. GHR3 looks like it will be good, comes out in early may. CoD2 was definately worth the time. Welcome to the PC gaming community. There are alot of games out there, dont go buyin em all  ;D

Rebel are you refering to HL or HL2 because when i eventually get a intel 'promac tower' or whatever stupid name they'll get,  HL2 and  BF2 will be the first two games that are loaded when i boot up into 'mac game mode' ;)

BFG, get R6:Vegas(if it's out by then), BF2, and UT2007. I'll also be buying (the trademarked name) MacPro when it's released this August on the 7th day. It's hard to believe that almost 3 years ago that was only 2 days before I ordered my Dual 2.0 G5 on their intro. I'll have to aim high again to match that.

Im not too sure about UT2007 I'm more interested in the other games that will Utilize the UT engine, although it does look pretty slick i must admit.

A couple of other games i'll be picking up include the GTA series, Hitman and sequel.

Oh and holy shit i can't believe i forgot to say GhR3 haha.

I can't wait to make this move now, holding out rather than upgrading to a G5 has worked out well, and the jump from a Powermac G4 with 1Ghz processors and a 133Mhz System bus, to a pimped out G5 whipping MacPro tower is going to be... well very nice indeed thankyou ;)

Yea, I'll have a windows buddy for the transition.  ;) (That still sounds creepy.......windows, that is)

I got a mate that just got his iMac set-uped with winxp. he says it's damn fast.
Apparently he is "only" going to use it to play Counter-Strike :-/

Im talkin bout HL2 not HL. I wasnt ever really interested in HL..but If u are u might feel differently.

(http://www.joyoftech.com/joyoftech/joyimages/809.jpg)

Sellouts  :(

Was gonna happen sooner or later. It's for the better as well. Soon there will be one gaming community....not a divided one.

and it will be on windows - garunteed.

If rumors ever prove true of MS releasing a XBOX OS for PCs (Games being the real focus), it will be the real platform of games.

I haven't heard about that Myst, although they are apparently going to incorporate the marketplace into Vista. And you are supposed to do different stuff and so on.

And I think that most of Vista's devs are actually old xbox devs.

That, or people who like to scam with the requirements of "points" that are only valid with MS.

Why not bring everything together? Games will be better when they dont have to waste time on porting it to many platforms. They can put all time and energy to making an amazing game. Sounds like a great plan to me.

Companies/People will stop earning money. And there wouldn't be that much of a competition between companies either.

http://www.barefeats.com/bootcamp.html

Results look good for Windows, OSX wins a lot though?

I have been playing the BF2 demo on my MBP with bootcamp and XP home for the last two weeks.
With the exception of the occasional crash, it runs better than any of my mac games on OS X.



MBP 2.16 core duo
2gb RAM
RadeonX1600  256VRam

Also... AA 2.6 seems seems to run pretty flawless.

Join ze dark side  ::applause::

PS. GRAW Demo could be out by next week.  ;)

GR:AW demo is out for PC. Installed it on my MBP and was a little dissapointed.  Runs a little laggy, like the lag on AA2.5 for mac before the auto login fix (not as bad).  I'm curious to see what PC people are saying. ??? 
COD2 demo on the other hand runs great!! ;D Gonna pick up the mac version when it's released.

should hace my mactel soon....

Well cottonmouth, as we know the ATI graphic chips are powered lowered than the normal ATI X1600. So you could increase the GPU speed in bootcamp and may gain up to 50 percent speed, as did a few gamers.

Bye,

Mauti

If you feel like "overclocking".

Sure the risk of wasting your mighty Mac comes included for free ;-)

Well, no. The MacBook Pro's GPU is actually under-clocked for battery life and fan noise reasons. You can gain 30-40% performance simply by setting it to stock frequencies.

Reference: http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1693

Well the point is that you lose your guarantee if something goes wrong and user reports from different users on xl8ryourmac.com have shown very different results. While some could even exceed the stock frequencies, some couldn't even get close.

Well of course, that's why I used quotionmarks. Even though It is not used correctly in this circumstance, I mean that you aren't actually overclocking it, you are just putting it into the right settings.

Thanks for the suggestions, but since gaming is secondary to running FCP Studio, I will not be messing with any hardware. Bootcamp is still just a baby, so I hope when it is 'officially' released they add more user prefs, maybe some tool for overclocking, which I know absolutely nothing about. For now I dont want to give apple any reason to void my MBP warranty.
I will keep ya'll filled in on performance with bootcamp and PC games.

I am totally hooked on BF2, the graphics are so amazing, I find myself just looking at the sky watching the Choppers and fighter jets shoot missles and have dog fights. ;D

The real question is whether they used XPoM or Bootcamp, because the former did have fan control issues apparently. If the cooling system wasn't thinking properly then it's safe to assume setting the clock rates at what they should be isn't a good idea. Anyone know what stock frequency Apple put on the 17inch?

Runs just fine on my PC (2400, X800, 1024mb). The gameplay is awful though, nothing like the orginal GhR, just another shoot em' up game.  >:(

GR AW demo has been a dissappointment to the pc gaming community. Runs fine on my comp, but others it doesnt. AI is garbage, many bugs, many crashes. Lots of people wondering if the full version will be worth the time and agony. I personally am going to buy it. Ill update with how MP is as soon as I get some time with it.

i dont want to get to off topic but... do you think gaming is at a point of where they just want to make games as pretty as possible and don't care about gameplay? some game trailers look like film trailers at the moment

That's what they want to do with the Xbox360 and PS3, they want it to look as much as a movie as possible.
But still playable as a game. For example, Condemened for PC/360, and Lost Planet for 360. Both looks alot like a movie.

Condemned is right up there with the best gameplay designed for a console ever in my opinion. It's very intuitive and fun to play. It's far more than still playable. I personally find that most of the truly great games do look awesome as it is a measure of effort as much as anything else. For example, back in the day:

 Unreal Tournament: looked amazing and played even better
 Max Payne: Best graphics for the year and was very innovative and fun along side a great story
 Dues Ex: Best looking game to ever use the original UT engine in my opinion, and never has it's game play style and non-linear feel been matched
 Red Faction: Cheesy storyline, but it sure made up for it in graphics, gameplay, and innovation.

Those are the ones off the top of my head, but I personally can't think of a truly great game that had subpar graphics for it's time. I think the "pretty" games get a lot of misplaced anger, as it can be pretty predictable when a game is going to be bad. In the end of the day, you can safely say "Oh, Ubisoft made this? I'll get the demo before ever buying it [or rent for console]". Now off to find some old Connery/Bond movies for a project.

Yes and no. Games that look great most of time play great as well. No point in taking the time to make a game look amazing just to have it suck in the gameplay section. Elders Scrolls 4: Oblivion by far has some of the best graphics on PC and 360, and the gameplay is amazing. There are some games that did lack even when the graphics were sweet, but I cant think of them off the top of my head.

Check the end of this thread: http://www.damnr6.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=9865.0

New stuff.

WOW. GR:AW = biggest dissapointment all year. Amazing. Hopefully by the time you guys get it all the problems are gone. Let me begin:

No dedicated servers.
No MP besides coop
No MP besides coop for another 2 months
Bugs and such
Low numbers of weapons
Crap AI

the list goes on. Ubi/Grin is getting bashed on their own forums 100+ times a day for releasing a game like this. Said to be one of the next big MP hits, this game has been a huge dissapointment. Most pc gamers are not purchasing it to make sure Ubi gets the idea not to **** with the pc community again. I feel gross for even wanting to buy it. Until I read about things getting fixed up my 50 bucks is stayin right in my wallet.

woah im genuinely surprised from what id heard before everyone was saying this was going to be a real big hitter in all the right places!! :(

Quake 4 was supposed to be huge; then it flopped because all those who had Doom III had basically already played Q4 a year earlier. I suspect the Indie game market will pick up, like the Indie music market did with the internet. People are not buying into the shitty games like they use to, and in the long run the big guys need to realize that or they will die a shitty death.

And what kind of games goes into the "indie game" genre?

What kind of music goes into indie music?

Maybe you just don't understand the word:

---

indie |?ind?| informal adjective (of a record label or film company) not belonging to or affiliated with a major record or film company.

---

So to apply that to gaming it would look something like:

---

indie |?ind?| A game developed by an individual or group not in association with a major developer or publisher.

---

Not completely true. Ubisoft is a huge company, and GR:AW sucks hard. Battlefield 2's gameplay went to shit and it is produced by EA. Dont get me started with EA and the half ass jobs they do on their games....

I don't exactly follow what you are disagreeing with. What isn't true?

I understand the word Indie just fine too..and Ethion simply beat me to the question.

Since hes not baiting you, you're not technically obliged to be a smartass everyfuckingtime he asks a question particularly when hes simply asking you to clarify your opinion....
Its a waste of topic real estate, and its immature..on top of the fact its extremely annoying.

What specific games fall into the Indie Genre?
Or who are the Indie game Makers?..
i dont follow closely enough to know who they are, or what games they make...

I can hardly believe that game makers without corporate programming and marketing budgets are going to even come CLOSE to competing with the major studios. They may get the game made, but they wont get it marketed..

And Music is a totaly different animal...altogether.

a. I assumed that since there is the first language gap Ethion points out frequently, there may be cause to fully explain the context of the word.

b. What's immature about my response? He asked what genre of games Indie games are; I clarified that indie isn't a genre, it's a method.

c. If you're looking for an example I'll list a personal experience one:

Tactical Ops:

Began with Unreal Tournament (One) as a modification that changed the game play into a CS-esque style. As the game grew it got it's own launcher, then eventually it became a completely stand alone game. It now retails for $20 as a stand alone CD or download and is successful enough that it continues through the unreal generations without being taken by any major developers or publishers.

I disagree that music is that different as production value of both take skills that some have and others don't. The real indie game generation is just beginning because of the new cheap engines that can perform and provide decent detail/quality/play experience such as the Unity engine (http://otee.dk/unity/).

So just incase your question still remains, "What type of games fall into the "indie game" genre?"

Any game that isn't developed by a major company or railroaded [to hell] by a major publishing company; there are no genre related limits.

Lets try and keep this discussion polite please folks... no need to reach for the handbags!

Just want to say, I've pointed it out once. And once only.
But sure, you can "fully" explain the context of the word, but no need of grabbing stuff out of oxford.

An easier way of putting the indie method you want to call it. Is just to say it's started out as a mod, and then became bigger.


Oh and these so called indie "companies", they get quite easily eaten up by other companies. Just look at the guy who made Desert Combat for BF1942. They got "bought" up by DICE, which is now owned by EA.
Which would make Trauma Studios something else.

And this immature thing? You always try to twist words, and make into something that is bad. Usually on my side. As I asked a question, what kind of games goes into that category. You didn't answer it until sheix came in, you just explained the word.

Maybe you should read up more on pedagogy.

I won't directly reply to the bait as I will heed the warnings preceding your post, but to your points.

You missed my point. The games that are indie are not games that start as mods, that's just one of the ways that they arrive. For example Wolfire's Lugaru (http://wolfire.com/lugaru.html) is completely original; and now Lugaru 2 is in development by the same small group. A indie game is a game that is not made by the big developers or big publishers - it's like indie music in that it's low budget, created totally by the game artists not executives or a marketing team, and low distribution. I truly believe that my modified definition did cover this by applying it minus a paragraph.

Desert combat being bought after it's indie level debut is one possible outcome, likely by those involved wanting money (immediately). Wolfire Software, Freeverse (Really has grown a lot), and hundreds yearly for PC and dozens for Mac that you can spot at iDevGames (http://www.idevgames.com/). The engines that are cheap and customizable, like the Unity engine, are really pushing the low budget market. They may not be on par with Doom 3 graphics but I would guess that they will be on UT2003 level by summer.

Yes there are examples of these companies selling out, like Codename Eagle from Refraction which spawned BF1942 (powered by Refractor 2 - their engine). However, there are tons that have stayed away and continues to develop along their own path. Sometimes these games suck and flop, other times these games explode and do great - in the long run to the small developer a flop could ruin them; it's that survival requirement that pushes them in ways UBI or others couldn't feel.

So can anyone tell me a worth-while r6 like game on pc?  I've had a pc for a long time and i'm tired of only using it for porn.... i wanna play games again! but all the games out right now look like they suck  - am i wrong?

Rebel - if you're playing a good pc game out there clue me in... maybe we'll see online sometime

Well...if the porters could have kept up with the demand (for the popular games) none of this would be neccessary.  Currently I am enjoying BF2 and GhR3 on my intel 20" Imac duo.  Its nice to be able to buy a game when it actually is released, and its nice to be able to be up to date and nice to BE ABLE TO PLAY SOMETHING WHEN YOU WANT TO.  Almost every game or series I like has to be waited for on Mac OS or given up on.  Personally I would love it if I could just boot up into OSX, get my work and personal sh*t done and just fire up the latest and greatest game in the OS I love, but the porters have given me no choice.  Don't get me wrong....I love Rvs GhR and Cod, but something NEW once in a while would be nice.  So for now, clicking restart, holding down the option key and choosing my "Windows" partition is pretty convenient. I don't feel like a complete sellout in front of PC system. PLus the games run really good.