*DAMN R6 Forum

I waited until i understood the full scope of the complaint that the French are maintaining against the new
First Job Contract (CPE) laws just signed. So far, i am with Chirac, that the law shall not be overturned..although he is conceding some of the stronger language. Not sure which parts will be immediately amended, but the for cause clause should stay.

Heres how it goes:

The MAIN point of protest against this law, is the stipulation that employers who hire new workers up to the age of 26, have the right to fire 'FOR CAUSE' meaning any reason..for the first two probationary years of their employment.

I waited for over a week to be SURE that my contempt was accurately aimed.

Guess what?

That law applies to almost EVERY American worker in a non-union shop, in almost every job category listable. And further, that law does NOT run out at the end of a two year period for us. American workers can be fired for any REASONABLE offence, thus under the law, for ANY reason. Abundance of Employment lawyers prevents this law from abuse..meaning that an employer may NOT fire you for frivolous reason..or they can but chose not to, to avoid legal trouble. Guess what, we dont have to riot, or burn shit in protest over such a silly stipulation..for the reason that there is nothing wrong with that law. It prevents Abusive, lazy and unproductive workers from gaining tenure, or becoming permanently lodged into the position, so that the EMPLOYER is at their mercy.

Now this isnt so much an attack on the french, but it rightfully COULD be...Looting, burning and rioting over such an inane interpretation of the law is yet another piece of evidence that western culture is hanging on the abyss..That THAT many people could or would gather, to rend such violence on their own country for such a surface issue.

Contrary to popular belief..all the anger present in so many counties worldwide is actually NOT attributable to American Foreigh Policy after all..Something much Bigger is happening. Anarchy and complete breakdown are lurking right under the surface.

What is it exactly? Im not sure, but the question never leaves my mind. WHy THIS level of anger..such as with the Migrant protests in America. Most of THOSE protesters do not even understand the law they are protesting. It does NOTHINg of much of what they are claiming it does..to rile other nationals into a preotest frenzy. MAtter of fact, this new law implements many new migrant protections that to this point had never been formalized..so they are protesting a law designed to HELP them...not hurt them..again..not sure whats going on, unless we can attribute it all to ignornce..

im just not sure.

Any ideas...??

Both laws, as i understand them are perfectly reasonable..but maybe some of the Euros may point out issues with these laws, that the media is not reporting...

its not because usa is like that, poor about social things, France (and euro) should be like you...the frenchies are just bored of how the world is going...and not only about this CPE.
last thing, the violences in france are made only by a minority, people are complaining are not violent.
so dont take position from your country when u dont know what is really happening here, and stop to trust your TV (oh shit thats true that TV is considered as a cultural thing in usa LOL)...it lies everyday !
good luck americans, u have to present excuses to natural born americans first and then u will maybe be able to judge the rest of the world...i say maybe of course

Who is your president ? Bush ? great guy for a great country...

Renault, Peugeot or Citroen are going well, how are going Ford and GMC ? waow nice economy u have in your country...

are you french? are you living in France?

please it's politic and only for french :) Watch harlem before watch in France

Vive la france.

You can't compare Harlem to France. Not that I've been in either of the two places. But you can't.

oh mon sale con d'ethion est la, quel plaisir de te revoir, toujour aussi con a ce que je vois lol

ethion t'es d'harlem?, je pense que oui, j'ai meme pas lu ton message, car je m'en branle a dix doigts lol

pour le CPE je m'en branle aussi lol

laisse notre democracie en paix et occupe toi de la tienne.

I think he is not comparing harlem to france, he just wana say that americans should clean their house before looking @ foreigner's one....

Um macro my French is somewhat lacking, im pretty certain you didn't say this:

h my dirty idiot of ethion is, which pleasure of re-examining you, you also see an idiot  what I see lol ethion are you from harlem?, I think that yes you are, I have same step read your message, because I shake some ten fingers lol for the CPE I shake  also lol leave our democracy in peace and occupy what holds you.

Ok my french is shocking, and i think the translation services available are even worse!!

Very typical, that i  ask in the last line of my post for you to clarify exactly why you are rioting, that you refuse to answer...i guess I must be right...a bunch of spoiled socialists, who think that their government OWES them jobs, and they dont want to be subject to the same type of labor laws the rest of the western world is subject to?

Youre saying that the French are Rioting and shit becuase they're BORED? Are you for real??
BOREDOM is a terrible excuse to go protesting by the way..if you want anyone to give a crap about your politics or your laws, or your justifications..without thinking that your people are acting like children.

So i guess youre saying that all the video and photography ive been seeing is all fake?
And that the International (NOT AMERICAN) explanations for the French riots are ALL lies?

HUH?

And instead of describing the issue, or correcting me about WHY your people are protesting or refuting what i said about WHY they are rioting, youre just going to talk about Harlem, which hasnt seen real rioting for about FORTY YEARS and insult my president..some more...and talk about car manufacturers?
Man, talk about NOT knowing whats going on in the world or haveing a CLUE about what goes on in Harlem. Funny youd use that as an example...shows how aware you are about the world too...and relying on French anti-american TV to get a picture of current events..If theyre telling you there is anything resembling Riots in Harlem, you need to Fire them for making shit up.

..Hahah where are you getting YOUR information about the US if my views are so offbase?..I use the international media and the BBC thanks...(who by the way, are interview FRENCH PEOPLE for explanations of the protest subject matters...) Were the French people that were interviewed actually Lying Americans just out to make you all loook bad or something?  Seems like a lot of work to just make up a lie about it..

WHAT??

So the French are rioting becuase they are BORED about the world, and the CPE is only an excuse?

REALLY??

So instead of using retarded examples about my country (which are wrong, sorry).... you COULD answer my questions. No, im NOT French, and I dont LIVE in france, which is why..um..I ASKED YOU TO CLARIFY YOUR POSITION.

we are bored about the world i think, bored about us, bored about dollars, but how many countries can do what's french are doing.

lot's of french want to stay french.

i saw in this forum lots of coward saying french have only 56k modem oh sorry i have a 1024up/20000 dl for 30euros, french is retarted lol sorry guys.

We having a new law again Apple et Microsoft's market. how many countries do that. the french is rebel and well, we have more than you have.

let's french in peace and make your revolution in your country.

i write english but sorry if i made errors

for BFG maybe it's a good translation, maybe not. why i'll do translate in english to write in this forum and saw some guys laugh about me for my "bad english" well now i'll speak french, and "bon courage car demain je peux insulter, demonter et vous enculer sans soucis et pourquoi m'en priver puisque vous l'avez fait".

which means:

"Good courage Bus tomorrow I can insult, demonter and to fuck up the ass you without concern and why deprive some to me since you did it "

Brilliant..he wants to fuck us all in the asses with a bus without caring for our safety while he demonstrates about the deprivation we caused him???...err..okay...freaky bastard.

And yes, we understand your english is bad, and thats ok..I enjoy that you come here and try your best to communicate. It's a good thing..and Im not making fun of you. thank you for your very unusual response Maco.

No, lots of cowards werent saying you had dialup (maybe one..as a joke - Probably Ethion..lol)..and OK, good for you that the French want to Circumvent Piracy and Digital Content laws concerning the Apple store..

BUT...i know some boys that live down south, that love them some Confederate flag, Boil up some Mean-ass Moonshine and could show you Frenchies what being a rebel is all about...

Them Crazy Duke boys..

DUKES OF HAZARD..the original rebels...WEEEHAW MOTHERFUCKERS..

(I bet The General Lee could Kick the living shit out of any matchbox Citroen you put up against it..
even firing on just four cylinders...)

LONG LIVE BO AND DUKE LUKE!!!!

ermm..that was just a joke ok french kids?
like they'd ever drive The General Lee running on FOUR CYLINDERS...hahahahahah

I just wanted someone to explain the protests..thats all...
Again, Maco, thank you for your response.

The thing about French being rebels? Is kind of half-true, yes.

Oh, and I believe it was Chirac who said that they didn't want a revolution. So if theres any other protests out there, they will be smacked down by the french police.

And about French people wanting to be french? France is kind of blocking immigrants to enter the country in some ways. I don't follow this matter to the letter, so I might be wrong. While the US got a lot of immigrants and alot of different kind of people in their nation.

And what is this with "we have more than you"? You don't have more than us, you play a big role in the European Union, that's for sure. You make some stupid laws, where some of them are good for competition, and some are just stupid.

Like the piracy laws, some tries to stop piracy. And some just makes it possible for people to download as much as they want.

-

And as for the connection thing, you might have a 20 mb download. But you live in a city right?
Most of the french people don't live in urban areas. From what I know, most of france adsl right?

As for your french, I can't care less. I have a sister living a few kilometers from Paris. And my father speaks french. Chirac even left a room just because a collegue of his started to speak english. He wants to "conserve" the french language. There are plenty of people teaching and learning and knows french out there in the world.

Some of this shit maybe doesn't make sense. And I can't care less about that either.

well guys the story is not about french or not or cpe, all is about our economy going down because the petroleum is skyrocking!! and a new study of the EC is that in 2010 in will be at 115$/b and 2015 at 360$/b

so this is what what should be arguing now !!!

And most of the raise is due to the last american politics :  wars arround the gulf ,  controls of Russians pipelines, control of serbians and pakistanians pipelines,  control of venesualian and argentinian exports !!!

Every time in history there as been a empire, there was some barbarians, and now we are the barbarians and USA is the empire, but u know what appens to empires !!!!

dog should trash his translator it really stinks and it shows how impossible is the translation of a language in an other without knowing the people use it...

and you should come out and tell us who you are.

Allrighty, well i don't care if you post in English Russian French Japanese or Romanian, if you talk like that to people on the forum i'll stick a warning or a ban on your ass. No offense but there is no need for this kinda stuff in here, and id expect better from you.

Im not sure what the arrogance and uneducated view of members of the forum has, nor the average speed of French Internet connections has to do with the conversation regarding the Employment laws in France but hey, whatever.

People don't like some things about France, (hey this is coming from a Brit.. *cough* 100 years war etc) and a lotta people don't like things about America. This topic was originally about the Employment laws and to get back to that id just drop something in.

I know France is going through a serious serious unemployment problem at the moment - particularly in young people and specifically with very very poorest of society. The exact details of the law are not really clear to me but from what i have read i don't like it, i think its appalling and should something like that be introduced in the UK i would be more than unhappy. I strongly dislike Chirac (not as much as i despise bush but hey) and to some extent im kinda pleased to see people really standing up and fighting for something like this... there is a line though between demonstrations and riots.

France seems to pick some damn stupid things to complain about sometimes but oh my do they know how to demonstrate and stand up for what is wrong (in their view). If only some more americans and other populations had the guts to stand up and put themselves 'in the firing line' with other such issues, for example the war in iraq.

nothing to add, just agree with BFG  ::applause::

Actually i've just thought of somthing else, and its maybe an explanation of the riots etc.

Im sure most of you guys have seen "Super Size Me" - Morgan Freelock and his mad documentry on living on McDonalds.. yeah? Ok

He's also done/doing a series of documentaries called "30 Days" one of which is on living on the minimum wage in the US... I watched it with my jaw on the floor. it was bloody good, and i think maybe watching that and looking at life of people living on say the US minimum wage might explain the anger and frustration among so many French Youth at seeing Chirac and his cronies bringing in this new law.

(I bet The General Lee could Kick the living shit out of any matchbox Citroen you put up against it..
even firing on just four cylinders...)

The World Rally Champion is a french guy with a Citroen with only 4 cylinders...ah ah ah ah AH AH AH
http://www.sebastienloeb.com/
 ::lol::

Hate to tell you buddy, but Ford is doing just fine.  All they've done is laid off a bunch of unproductive employees so that the rest of the company will run more efficiently.  I know, that sounds so harsh to you Frenchmen...laying off people who are unproductive and all.  Ford has actually INCREASED its research and development budget for vehicles, and tripled its budget for Hybrid Gas/Electric-powered vehicles.  One reason for many of the layoffs is that Ford has consolidated some of its factories and is about to stop making certain vehicles (the Taurus, Excursion, Thunderbird, and Ford GT for example).  As for me, my sales numbers have gone through the roof in the Fleet Division of Ford over the past couple of years (and the highest increase has actually been since Ford announced the layoffs!).

Sounds like you should start listening to what you preach and not believe EVERYTHING YOU SEE ON TV.[/size]  :P

Well Sebastian..you almost got the Joke....but not quite. No, Im not explaining it to you.
Google Bo and Luke Duke. They arent real people.

And speaking of our economy and how shitty it obviously is, I'd LOVE for you to compare unemployment rates to ours...O WAIT..matter of fact, i just found a nice comparison..so show me on here the evidence or our soured economy..please. (and no this is not american distorted lying pigdog media- this is fromBrussels and EUSTAT)).

See that Black Line? Thats France's Shitty Unemployment rates,
and the happy green on at the bottom is for the USA.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/917

And Maco, whoever told you. that America contolled the Russian, Pakistani, Venezuelan or Argentianian Pipelines lied to you...seriously. I hope you didnt get that off French TV.

And on a side note..here we are..18 replies Into the subject, and NOT ONE THOROUGH explanation for exactly WHAT about the labor law everyone seems to have a problem with..some American insults, a couple thrown at Bush and some bs about Harlem.(lol), but NO explanations..  I stated it as best I understood it, then BFG says he doesnt get the exact details of it, yet agrees and thinks that its appalling??...Which parts..i still dont know....The french have done zero to clarify it...

Im still where i was on post one. What SPECIFICALLY are you people protesting about this law???...
I TRUELY dont care about all your other myriad of Gripes with the western world ..i want to know about THIS law...STILL...For crying out loud.

I couldn't agree with this statement more.

You mean all the gutless americans in THESE cities????

Akron
Amarillo
Annapolis Royal, Nova Scotia
Antigonish, Nova Scotia
Arcata
Armidale
Asheville
Ashland
Athens
Atlanta
Austin
Baltimore
Barrie, Ontario
Beavercreek
Bellingham
Billings
Biloxi
Binghamton
Birmingham
Bisbee
Blacksburg
Bloomington
Boise
Boulder
Brampton, Ontario
Brandon, Manitoba
Burlington
Butler
Calexico
Calgary, Alberta
Canmore, Alberta
Canton
Canton
Cape Cod
Cape Girardeau
Captain Cook
Carbondale
Castlegar, British Columbia
Cedar Rapids
Charleston
Charlotte
Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island
Charlottesville
Chattanooga
Chatham-Kent, Ontario
Chicago
Chico
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Cobourg, Ontario
Colorado Springs
Columbia
Columbia
Columbus
Comox Valley
Concord
Cornwall, Ontario
Corpus Christi
Cortez
Corvallis
Cranbrook, British Columbia
Croton-on-Hudson
Coupeville
Cowichan, British Columbia
Cumberland
Dallas
Dayton
Daytona Beach
DeLand
Denton
Detroit
Dubuque
Durango
Edmonton, Alberta
Ellensburg
Elkins
Encino
Erie
Eugene
Fairbanks
Farmington
Fayetteville
Fillmore,
Findlay
Flagstaff
Fort Lauderdale
Fort Smith
Fort Wayne
Fredericton, New Brunswick
Fresno
Gainesville
Galesburg
Galveston
Geneva
Grand Forks
Grand Junction
Grand Prairie
Grand Rapids
Guelph, Ontario
Hadley
Halifax, Nova Scotia
Hamilton, Ontario
Hilo
Holland, Michigan
Honolulu
Houston
Hull,
Huntsville,
Indianapolis
Ithaca
Jasper,
Jefferson City
Jersey City
Johnston
Juneau
Kamloops, British Columbia
Kansas City
Kelowna, British Columbia
Kezar Falls
Kingston, Ontario
Kitchener, Ontario
Knoxville
Lafayette
Lancaster
Lansing
Las Cruces
Las Vegas
Lawrence
Leavenworth
Lethbridge, Alberta
Lexington,
Lillooet, British Columbia
Lincoln
Little Rock
London, Ontario
Long Beach
Los Angeles
Louisville
Macomb,
Madison
McAllen
Meadville
Medicine Hat, Alberta
Medford
Melbourne
Memphis
Minneapolis
Miami
Midland
Milwaukee
Minden
Mobile
Moncton, New Brunswick
Montague Center, Massachusetts
Montpelier
Montreal, Quebec
Mount Vernon
Nanaimo, British Columbia
Naples, Florida
Nashville, Tennessee
Nelson, British Columbia
New Britain, Connecticut
New Carlisle, Quebec
New Orleans
New York City
Newark, Delaware
Norfolk, Virginia
North Bay, Ontario
North Newton, Kansas
Olympia, Washington
Orange County, California
Orangeville, Ontario
Orillia, Ontario
Orlando, Florida
Ottawa, Ontario
Palm Desert, California
Parker Ford, Pennsylvania
Parry Sound, Ontario
Pensacola, Florida
Penticton, British Columbia
Peoria, Illinois
Peterborough, Ontario
Philadelphia
Phoenix, Arizona
Pittsboro, North Carolina
Plattsburg, New York
Portland, Maine
Portland, Oregon
Port Perry, Ontario
Portsmouth, Ohio
Powell River, British Columbia
Prince Albert, Saskatchewan
Prince George, British Columbia
Qualicum Beach, British Columbia
Quebec City, Quebec
Racine, Wisconsin
Raleigh, North Carolina
Red Deer, Alberta
Regina, Saskatchewan
Richland Center, Wisconsin
Riverview, New Brunswick
Rockford, Illinois
Rolla, Missouri
Sackville, New Brunswick
St. Augustine, Florida
St. Catharines, Ontario
St. Charles, Louisiana
Saint Joseph, Missouri
St. Louis, Missouri
St. Paul, Minnesota
St. Petersburg, Florida
Saguenay, Quebec
Salem, Oregon
Salmon Arm, British Columbia
Salt Lake City
Saltspring Island
Sacramento, California
San Antonio, Texas
San Diego, California
Sandpoint, Idaho
San Francisco
San Jose, California
San Luis Obispo, California
Santa Barbara, California
Santa Cruz, California
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Santa Monica, California
Sarasota, Florida
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan
Savannah, Georgia
Seattle
Sherbrooke,
Silver City, New Mexico
Sioux Falls, South Dakota
Sitka, Alaska
Sonora, California
South Bend
South Haven, Michigan
Spokane, Washington
Springfield, Missouri
Starkville, Mississippi
St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador
Sudbury, Ontario
Summertown, Tennessee
Sydney, Nova Scotia
Tacoma, Washington
Tallahassee, Florida
Taos, New Mexico
Tehachapi, California
Temple
Thornbury, Ontario
Thunder Bay, Ontario
Tofino, British Columbia
Toronto, Ontario
Trois-Rivières, Quebec
Truro, Nova Scotia
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Tucson
Uxbridge, Ontario
Valdosta, Georgia
Vallejo, California
Vancouver, British Columbia
Vancouver, Washington
Victoria, British Columbia
Vineyard Haven, Massachusetts
Watertown, New York
Wausau, Wisconsin
Waterloo
West Palm Beach, Florida
Westbank, British Columbia
Whitehall, Michigan
Whitehorse, Yukon
Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania
Williamsburg, Virginia
Williamsport, Pennsylvania
Williamstown, Massachusetts
Wilmington, Delaware
Windsor, Ontario
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Wolfville, Nova Scotia
Yakima, Washington
Yarmouth, Nova Scotia
Yellowknife, Northwest Territories
York, Pennsylvania
Youngstown, Ohio

All those cowards afraid to stand in the 'firing line' on ONE SINGLE DAY in America: 
Feb 13, in NATIONAL anti-war protests...thats a LOT of cowards...all marching for Peace.
 
Hey I dont mid generalizations..as long as they are accurate...and calling the people that braved police and FBI retaliation to march 'gutless' is as wrong and misinformed as youve been on these forums...the people that live in these communities would likely take offence at your mischaracterization.
Fine if you dont like Bush..neither do the people living in every single one of the cities I listed.

Or maybe the INTERNATIONAl press forgot to mention it...becuase it wont support the assertion that No One in America is calling for an end to the war, or actively trying to stop it..or that we wanted it in the first place.

As opposed to a Central location for these protests..as in the UK, where people were bussed in from 225 cities across the country..This day of protest saw rallies in each and every town listed above.

That's hardly a list of the Gutless....

People may have did something in those cities but it wasn't anything big... barely anything, if anything at all was heard from these.  St. Paul is one of the most liberal cities I know of and even the protests and whatever else us liberals do (most of which I attend) is never heard publically at all... and since most of us liberals aren't very violent people (judging by the vast majority of us being against guns) it's very difficult to get heard... it seems the only way to really get heard in the U.S. right now is a) if you're a republican, b) if you're violent or c) if you really piss the government off... and I'm talking about normal everyday citizens, not congressmen and such.

Being a member of a, b or c groups will do nothing to get you heard.

It will get you UNHEARD. If you are a republican that stands to question any of this shit..you are for all practical purposes stripped of your position..or made lame Duck, as a result of it. There are those that have tried. My father resigned his position based on his dissatisfaction, and general disillusionment with the current state of affairs, and for forty years, claimed to be Republican. It used to stand for something else...

And protesting in whatever numbers wont guarantee that youll be heard either. Even you yourself admitted that StPaul protests are not publicised...Thats not the PROTESTORS fault, its the media...so i stand by my assertion that those people, (the American People) in whatever numbers..arent the gutless cowards they are being accused of being.

There ARE people in this country (a whole shitload of em) that disgree with whats going on.

Whats funny, though, are those Europeans that LAUGH at our media, or the unreliability of it..seem to forget, that it would be THAT very media, that is not covering these protests, therefore, THEY dont hear about them, leading them to claim that we dont care, or that the absence unequivocally proves that the Americans are a bloodthristy lot of idiots....HOW GODAMN IRONIC.

And how productive would it be for the Anti-American Contingent running rampant, if the BBC, or LeMonde, were to ACTUALLY SHOW UP TO REPORT that Americans themselves were trying to stand up to their government in protest and getting maced, beaten and arrested enMasse?..SHIT it would shatter their whole angle on what uncivilized animals we all must be...and what kinda fun would THAT be?  Theyre having MUCH more fun pretending that we're standing behind Bush with our Chalices of Blood cheering the destruction on... 

Guess what people? thats what happens at large American Protest Rallies, whether your countries report it or not....Seen any footage of the Trade Protests? Lots of pepper spray and batons used then...and those were american kids standing up to big business for you...(some of em idiots..ok, but still)

The media has steadfastly REFUSED to question this war. I am making the point that these people ROSE to action, at the threat of surveillance, which IS happening in an alarming number of cases, police overreaction..(see SanFrancisco protests), and they do so, realizing that no one will hear what they say, no one is reporting on the mothers of dead soldiers (barring Sheehan) or veterans that are speaking out...I mean shit, you all got to see the AbuGhraib Photos right? but how any of you know how many soldiers lost their jobs, or their commissions, or were listed as mentally incompetent to serve their divisions for REPORTING that abuse? Did youre media come to report that? Did you interview our soldiers to show the world that there were people standing up and doing whats right? NO..No, they sure the fuck did not. So dont pretend there arent thousands of american heros protesting this evil shit in sacrificial terms..you just havent looked for them.

Thats the saddest and most hypocritical thing of all..and its the only reason, id spend any time defending them..or bringing up the fact that THEY ARE PROTESTING..despite the claims to the contrary or lack of appropriate coverage...

Just a side question... I'm confused, are you for or against the war Sheix? just curious.

And I totally understand what you're saying... I think.  You stand up for the protestors in a similar way I stand up for our soldiers.  They're doing what's right, but depending on opinion, for a bad cause (on either side).  May not be the best comparison but corrent me if I'm wrong.

Trust all governements: dont come in france, forget this country, it is burning  ::hot:: , civil war  ::sniper:: death  ::uzi:: kill kill kill  ::nade:: anarchy  ::wall:: socialism and stupid people  ::stupid:: ...bird influenza, crazy cow and chirac etc etc etc only good reason for you to stop to try to understand something you cant...and frenchies dont need to justify why they are protesting because you are not french, it means you are not concerned by the problem.

Was wondering why you are so interested in that thing ?

You should protest against war in irak, against pollution etc just had guts to do something for your country instead of wasting time with our problems.

ciao

Absolutely 100% i support, both soldiers and protestors.
Shit we're all victims on this one.
I probably should have stated my beliefs more solidly early on.
What this war has done to everyone ..in terms of everyone starting to pull up the drawbridge for a fight, i have to come up with new ways to define what im feeling.

Sad isnt sufficient anymore.

Hearing people unashamedly bash the country that i happen to feel is still a loving, strong, gentle
natured , generous country is almost too much to bear...becuase Im a GODAMN OPTIMIST.
There are Millions and Millions of people who care, who give a shit, who cry over the war, who disagree with out president, and who welcome the less fortunate...but all that good lost its focus...
Worse still, is that Im hearing it from people who DIRECTLY benfitted from the sacrifice of my ENTIRE grandparents generation..from THEIR commitment, their goodwill..and their willingness to put aside their personal beliefs (isolationism) to become REVILED all in less than ONE generation..all gone..fuck it america sucks, fuck them...i mean it when i say i am trying my DAMNDEST, not to just give up and say FUCK YOU TOO...but then...

i havent given up yet.

******No, im not saying you owe me shit over WW2..i just wish you understood that it was symbolic of what a generous capacity America was capable of when we showed what we were willing to sacrifice FOR YOU and the world, when your backs were against the wall, despite GREAT disagreement at home, as to whether we should do so. Anti war sentiment was at an all time LOW in Europe im betting...

Hard NOT to be angry about it some..actually...even though i have to grudgingly admit i DO SINCERELY understand it some...just wish the shortsighted gratitude had lasted a bit longer or at least given a clue as to the underlying moral makeup of MOST Americans, and their families, and ancestors. As youll see later in my post, theres a , SMALL chance, that at least as far as Western Civilization is concerned, that we are taking a MORAL hit, to ACT on a difficult premise for the greater good of the west..although only history will bear that out..and I could be dead wrong.

What i was doing, was refuting the assertion that Americans are gutless cowards unwilling to stand up to their government on the War. (as opposed to the french rebel heros who are willing to stand up to their government over what still appears to me a harmless law...oh and Piracy)
 I was saddened to see you agree with Bfgs assertion there..But in reality I think iunderstood wht you meant..you wish for more assertive or responsible advocacy.   I am no longer certain to any degree that citizen demonstrations accomplish anything here anymore...hence, the poetic irony of the protest..a silent protest if you will. A protest in the FACE of claims that we as a people are responsible for this war...and No, un-electing Bush after his first term wouldnt have done a damn thing to stop it..

Point is, lots are, and like your group, they get no attention as a large demographic of similarly minded people against the war. This is purposefully done, to create the appearance..(effectively evidently) that most of us support Bush, or the War. When Neither is even remotely True.

Am I for the war?  Ok, Krush, you asked for it...

Ill put myself on the line here, and say im not sure.
I still hold the position, that when so many things are done that fly in the face of commons sense, that some OTHER factor is at play, and the entire debate about WMDs, and Saddam/AlQueda were paper tigers, to occupy our rhetoric, and nosey reporters (although there were none, evidently).

I believe that in a way it's about Oil, but more importantly, its about currency. And the strength of the dollar...and the prevention of a consolidation of PanArabic control over the middle eastern pipelines, which is tied to the dollar in this way...Through the currency exchanges.  Now, given this view, if it were true, might POSSIBLy change the mind of the European, to see it as a necessary Evil..becuase like it or not, their currency is tied to ours in a death embrace.

Iraq had been selling oil in Euros, and Pocketing the extra 30% . That alone isnt significant. Where it BECOMES significant, (and this is where it gets good) is when you combine the net effect of Iraq, Iran, Venezuela AND Argentina turning to the Euro as THE source of Oil Currency. Again, not that commodity trade in Euros would alone be destructive, but if those three turned all at once..it would further devalue the dollar, at which point (CRITICAL HERE) the countries that hold american CURRENCY as a commodity would be forced to sell THEIR dollars, and american debt loads off to offset that 30% drop in value. Countries like China and India, which have been buying American and British Debt at a rate of 22 million dollars an hour. At some point they would be forced to sell that investment, and we would have a VERY Black Monday.(and it is said that China currently holds approx EIGHTY PERCENT of US and British Debt..personal, real estate, and housing) (Especially hit hard would be Britain, as their lead economic advisor sold off approximately 70% of their holdings in Gold -ie 600 Tonnes in the late 80s, during the real estate crash) Again, im sure there are dreamy thoughts of that amongst our armchair 'friends"....UNTIL...they realize that THEIR commodity exchanges could not sell THEIR dollars off, before the Chinese holdings hit the market, and THEIR economies would be smashed to pieces OVERNIGHT. as well...  Sure, some have diversified, but to this point, Investment in American labor capital is STILL a strong buy, relative to other offerings..and many western countries are buried to the HILT in investments and currency commodity holdings.   You think gasoline is expensive now? It will be ten times as expensive, as a result of the devalued Dollar and Euro. We attacked Iraq, to prevent the fist domino in the chain, from comfortably converting to the Euro...Iran has its own plan to do JUST that, as has Venezuela... See the pattern?

So...Let me ask you..if an economist told you or the world, that unequivocally, Iraq, Iran, Venezuela's mutual agreement to begin their own internationa Oil Exchanges (with Russia and Chinas absolute 100% security agreements), Like our Nymex, and that that consolidation would ALONE devalue your nations currency by 30-50% by the year 2010....and THAT would start a chain reaction of currency sales that could make the stock market crash of 1929 look like a practice run EXCEPT THIS TIME, it would affect every western democracy in the world...UNLESS...you stopped it......would you be in favor of attempting to stop it?

(there are no other options to this qustion here as i understand it...given this premise..once (IF) that first domino falls, and that alignment of countries got their exchanges rolling simultaneously...the crash is absolutely INEVITABLE)

Forget Osama, Forget AlQuaida....we're talking Economic war....on YOUR CURRENCY, and YOUr way of life..and YOUR job prospects, and the economic dominance of Western Currency (american, french, british, belgian, german..etc) FOR GOOD..would YOU be in favor of the war?

Im not in favor of any war, really..im way past that in my expectations for what humanity COULd become..but id be lying if i said that scenario didnt spook me a bit.

Selfishly, i think at this point, at my level of understanding, i reluctantly have to say yes i suppport the war as a necessary evil - If its truely a premptive strike on the Economic war being waged on Western Economy at the moment....(THIS IS SOLELY PREDICATED on the possiblity that my theory is somewhat on the mark-  if not..all bets are off, and its a solid NO.)

Bt if i knew for a fact, that all of these false-flag, half assed Bullshit reasons we've been given were the reasons we REALLY went to war..Id be the first to sacrifice my life, and or my position and my reputation to fight it..and fight against the war effort. im just not convinced thats why we went..or will continue to go.

Im as tore up about it all as my goofy ass little dogs Chew-Squirrel becuase i have NO WAY OF KNOWING WHAT TO BELIEVE..im just sure that its not as simple as its presented to the world...

And I hope that somehow God..the Good Loving God, is watching, and will take care of all of us innocent, stupid fuckers that have no way to get to the REAL TRUTH..(not the one we debate in Politics class) and accepts that the reason we've been killing each other, is that we were ALL duped into NOT seeing the big picture or been mislead as to what the nature of the big picture really is......(that includes Americans, british, iraqis, Iranians, Syrians, Venezuelans..and Frenchman and Palestinians) etc..

Cuz we're all getting the headfuck on this one.

And NOWAY, you are right..trying to understand your point of view HAS been a waste of time since none of you fucking idiots have explained SHIT..other than to mumble about iraq, busses in assholes and your super fast little Citroen cars,
and your rebellious superior natures....
I never ONCE asked you to justify it, i was 'ASKING YOU TO CLARIFY IT', you retard.
But by your liberal overuse of smilies, i NOW realize you are Simply INCAPABLE OF EXPLAINING YOURSELF LIKE AN ADULT..
So thank you for your valuable contribution..
Now fuck off..im done trying to understand. I no longer care.
Protest Itunes and silly socialistic labor laws, you will be a better human for it.
Enjoy your imminent Islamic Revolution...we won't be helping your asses out on this one.

See BFG? See all the mean shit he made me say?
I only halfway mean that stuff...ok 89%.
At least you and Krush realize i was trying to better understand....right?
i mean i only asked for specifics like a bazillion godamn times...
fuck.

I can't even bother to read all that sheix.


BFG, I thought that was the reason of the *DAMN forum.

i dont care.

Shiex, mate i didn't mean that nobody did. the inportant word was more just as more Brits and More Europeans etc should have stood up against what bush and blair have done.

Perhaps what i should have really said is if only more figures in the media would have stood up against what was happening rather than fall in line with what they were spoon fed by the Government.

I never said or believe for one moment that there arn't americans who arn't as or much more disgusted than me by what has happend - hell i know there are because i've met them.


As shiex said, you can totally oppose the war and still totally support the poor bastards that got shipped out there to do the dirty work.



Oh and Ethion, if you can't be bothered to read the thread, don't bother to post, your doing nothing more than spamming.

Maybe Sheix is just trying to understand the problem from a French point of view instead of what he hears from the news, maybe he has a soul, maybe you French guys should stop giving him that douchebag tone and take 5 minutes out of your life to explain what exactly is going on instead of using that 5 minutes to shun him and completely change the subject to American politics. You act as if he was trying to insult you coming back with insults about his country when he is just trying to gain a little insight. You all stereotype Americans but then when one opens their mouth to better understand you, you come back with the classic stereotypical elitist douchebag responses. So either don't be a smartass and argue intelligently or stick to the Spam Drop Box.

Haz

Well... People did try to stand up and speak out about the war such as The Dixie Chicks. Here is a girl group of good ole cowgirls who were branded as antiamerican for saying what they thought. After people saw hoiw they were treated by the government and the media... Others who might have spoken out we intimidated into silence.

Take madonna for instance. She was once known to be controversial and she also had an album drop as the war began which she had named one thing to speak out against the war but then changed to "American Me" after she saw the response to the Dixie Chicks.

Johny Depp who spoke out but then moved to his house in France to avoid the reprocussions of his talking against the government.

It is hard to speak up for what is happening if it will cost you your career for doing so and unfortunately many celebrities and the media saw that so they fell in line.

Ein

Most of the french guys that i know and that are leaving in the state are realy amazed when they come back for some holydays in ffrench. They are amazed that we can speack so freely and most that we are listened by politician and by medias.

they realy also are amazed that we are so aware of the real issues like i said before, that energy and clean water are now the new gold !! and soon (10 years) only 20% of the population is going to be able to pay is energy bills !!!!

Thats how some texans (5 or 7 families) will control indians and chines !!!

but thats also how they will crush the world economy and soon there own!!! after that ther EEMPIRE will be like the biggest empire the humanity had, the ETYOPIAN, they will be nothing !!!

SO before all is off, plz amercians wake up, stand up, and come back as the democraty u could have been !!! your on the wrong path

Ghost, Im sorry, but i wasnt really able to understand your meaning such as "6 or 7 Texas Families being able to Control The Chinese and India"...that made no sense to me...perhaps rephrase that for me so i can understand? (im sure its just language difficulties)

I appreciate that youd share your opinion without be Too terribly insulting...

And thanks for your concern, but our democracy is working fine, even if still rough around the edges. Elections will be held in two years, and im sure MAJOR changes will be made. You, as we..must be patient.

America has no interest in crushing the Economies of the western world, as they are tied intimately with our own. Crushing any western economy would immediately affect our own.

Which is why i believe that the current war is being waged..to insure a flow of oil-energy resources in spite of a burgeoning Islamic revolution and to prevent the collapse or devaluation of western currency.

 A revolution with which France is becoming painfully aware. I would suspect that that very fear is what inspired your leaders to start regulating the Clothes that Islamic citizens are allowed to wear in public...such as the bans on the Khimar or Burkha (headscarves). You would never find this manner of oppression in American culture,despite sharing that fear to an extent. This fear is gripping Europe at a time where they are claiming that OUR culture is the discriminatory one. And ironically, despite that realistic concerns related to a growing Islamic Minority..europe is JAILING intellectuals who are attempting to bring these facts to light..As Belgium recently jailed a respected University Scholar for simply WARNING Europe that the Islamic revolution is coming home to roost. That poor guy was sentenced to THREE YEARS..for stating the obvious. Germany is doing the same thing...regulating speech and thought. (see Zundel & Irving) THANK GOD, for Freedom of Speech here....

 As a matter of fact, despite some regional hatred, Their culture is protected BY LAW, as are their citizens from this type of over reaching regulation. America was and still is the land of religious freedoms, and that freedom is still respected...to a point. They would NEVER be allowed to burn cars in over 300 cities across the nation while the leadership stands by and watches the destruction without police intervention.

 Nor would we allow the country to be brought to a standstill over a labor law that simply allows emplyers to fire unproductive workers within aprobation period. And despite the fact that sometimes its frustrating that rallies and protests do not sway policy decisions in every case..it is VERY comforting to know that our country will never be shut down and cowed down to change the wording of law by a bunch of spoiled teenagers who are angry at being held to the same employment standards as the rest of the western world. Heavy handed, perhaps at times, but at least our government has a backbone.

Second,  you are mistaken by referring to Ethiopia as the worlds largest Empire. That honor would go to the Mongols (as defined by land mass) and the British (as defined by the size of their geographic control)

Shiex, if what you were partly referring to was that the war is part of a bigger picture and gradual realisation that the shift of power is moving East and that our currency and 'way of life' is becoming increasingly controlled by eastern markets such as China, then i couldn't agree more. In fact i think by the end of my lifetime the economic power map will have changed beyond all recognition.

I was fascinated by what you wrote about the debt acquisition etc. I think most people really cannot comprehend that our (the western world, the Americas, Europe, etc) days as 'first world countries' are drawing to a close, when i don't know but given what you said and the signs of it already happening are everywhere, i don't think its going to be a long time.


I hadn't heard about this, dosn't sound good at all. But just as id agree we don't have freedom of speach over here, id argue that increasingly nor does the US. In fact my dad cut out a major article in the paper on just this - the serious vetting and censorship of several top American Academics. I think at the end of the day there is no country that has true free speech, not in the sense that many people believe exists.  But all this is maybe drifting away from the other more interesting issues being discussed.


That i don't think is fair, unless you understand the fabric of French society (no i don't really understand it, but i had a bloody long conversation with my dad over a bacon and egg sandwich and a couple of cups a tea a while back when riots happend last year and it kinda explained a whole heap of shit, pity i have a brain like a, um like a, erm, i forget)

"First Article – Men are born and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions can be founded only on the common utility."

Equal rights - treated the same, regardless of race or religion. No special discrepancies or allowances made, people are treated on a level playing field (Ok thats a real simplification but you get my gist).

We had a similar issue here where a girl has gone to court attempting to be allowed to be exempt from wearing her school uniform, and instead dress in full islamic dress... she failed, and i think that was the right decision. She was allowed to wear a headscarf but not a full burka style setup..

You were referring though i believe to a general ban? that i think you cannot apply - we're talking discrimination there. Thats not on.



Ps. Lastly and most inportant: Oh man the Mongols kicked ass :D

Ah yes, I stand corrected...As I read more about the law, i realized I Wasnt considering school uniforms, and that law i referred to, was restricted to state schools, and government offices. Under those situations, i agree with a compromise on Clothing allowances..and restricting full dress.

So, retract my statments on that, concerning the French.

And although i have no way of knowing which academics your father referred to, i can say that ONE case that has been in the headlines, is a NASA scientist, Jim Hansen who is being gagged by the administration, concerning his research on Global Warming, the speed at which it is occuring, and the extent of the damage.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17973786%255E23109,00.html

Im torn here (a little)...becuase what they are saying is that he is not allowed to make statements drawing on his research as a NASA scientist (and he is considered pre-eminent in his field) as a civilian. Which, just as spokesmen for other offices are restricted in sharing their personal views if they conflict with official statements..BUT as he makes the case...This is about the survival of the human race, and survival of our planet..and those two items take precedence over NASA press policy..being that NASA was SUPPOSED to be responsible for research that dealt with our environment..and preservation of it.

He, thankfully, is chosing to ignore the gag order...

This (http://s6.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1UDJC4CHFWNG52Q90G7PV2QZ1G) is the kind of French rioting I like to see..  ;D

(It's worth the sluggish download)

really dangerous to think that, pregnant women, long sickness etc what for them ? because they are trully unproductives... :o
Your opinion is just the nazis one, with the difference u prefer let them die during a long time without any dollars instead of killing them immediatly...
Take care Sheix

Im getting tired of people hiding behind 'guest' accounts. either use your account, register or don't bother. Its not like i can track exactly who you are anyway. If your going to continue all posting under pseudonyms or using guest accounts, i'll probably just delete your post.

While i disagree with the employment law it isn't as simple as 'this is bad'. The aim behind it was to encourage employers to take on younger staff (below the age of 26). If there was less strict rules and more flexibility it was felt that employers would feel more able to take on younger staff. If things go wrong you arn't stuck with staff you cannot employ. That i can understand. However thats an 'ideal' and i think in practice employers are more likely to abuse the fact that they can take on staff and drop them without any explanation at all. Your going to get young people desperate for work being used and chucked. thats not fair.

As for the nazi reference; thats way outta line, and disrespectful to all parties involved. Id have thought you would have more intelligence than to compare genocide with questions about work laws... as i've said above the whole point in the law was to ideally make the likely hood of young unemployed people actually getting work.

OK, whoever you are..Ill clarify.
Ill PRETEND youre not just being stupid or insulting, and Ill pretend this has been a worthy discussion, and that i know more about the situation than when i started asking questions..

In America, there are laws that allow an employer to fire anyone for any reason...
Mostly, this is to allow employers to fire unproductive, lazy, or insubordinate employees.
Or workers that fail to show up for work becuase they decide they are going to go downtown, chant and protest about UBI soft, or The Evil Americans, or whatever the fuck else you think is worth these weekly protests...

Pregnant women and sick employees are protected by law.
Pregnant women are allowed maternity leave....BY LAW.
Sick workers are  protected by law,
but unless they are sick for a super long time,
employers will hold jobs, or hire temporary workers until that worker can return..

Workers that WILL NOT perform their duties, or perform them poorly, or reject the authority of the employers, or are generally incompetent may be fired.

And as for that law protecting people from being hired and chucked? Economics take care of that, and prevent abuse...why would anyone hire someone they are going to immediately fire? Its not logical or productive, and becuase of the costs involved in training, I can bet that NO employers would have that in mind when hiring young employees..

Employers need the right to fire WILLFULLY unproductive workers. Or else people will become unproductive simply becuase the Law allows them the security to act however they want without the fear of being fired.

PERHAPS, that law should be in place to prevent these young, spoiled idiots from getting a bug up their asses and takeing a few days off work to run around setting shit on fire, kicking in windows of local businesses and other unproductive shit, just becuase say...Apple won't bow to your will, and allow piracy of its music...

Again, ive been PERFECTLY reasonable and willing to listen, and or explain my position and listen carefully while you explain yours, but if youre going to continue to insult me for DARING to question the great will of the almighty French like little fucking babies..without EXPLAINING YOURSELF LIKE ADULTS, you all can go fuck yourselves...and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. Im beginning to understand why your people are hated. I used to think it was a myth that you were ignorant, self absorbed imbeciles. I have given you AMPLE opportunity to explain, clarify, or debate, but if youre going to just sit there acting cute for each other, without adressing any issue thoughtfully..you leave me no choice other than to think you are genetically damaged, and incapable of thoughtful discussion on ANY topic..and the world had a point the entire time. Take Care, Dumbasses.

 ::applause::

Well said Sheix. To tell the truth, besides ghost, it seems like none of the french are productively contributing to this conversation. If this was a business you would all be fired according to the new laws. Actually the whole conversation has been a debate between the UK and the US which gets us no closer to answering Sheix's original questions. All we have is speculation by both thwe contributing sides with a few undeserved lash outs from the French side who was asked the question to begin with (once again, not you ghost).

If the french don't want to defend their position then I see no more need for debate. It is getting us nowhere.

Ein

I spent a little over two weeks in Paris last June.  Lived with two young people, one working as a Lawyer for Air France, the other was a surfer dude working at a clothing store.  They had a remarkably simple life, a good sized apartment in Marmont (near the Scared Heart), but struggled to be happy.  That was odd to me.  Both complained about their jobs.  Poor pay, long commutes and little room for advancement.  How could they raise a family in that apartment?  How could they look forward to the future if it's to be the same as yesterday? 

To simpify, a lot of their problems were ones most Americans suffer through with a groan and a "that's life" shrug.  But these two still had big dreams and didn't want to feel trapped.  Part of me admires that; the refusal to accept your situation.  So these protesters, I admire their willingness to attempt to affect the change they desire. 

just as with the recent protests across the US against the radical imigration law which proposed to make ilegal imigration a federal crime.  Bully for our protesters on that one! A focused issue and an important one.

But I think it's pretty clear that the protests in France are a conglomeration of various interest groups motivated by different things converging around one event. I just don't understand what the fuck they really think they're doing...

Bunch of bourgeois kids protesting things they know nothing about. Only in Europe can you be a Marxist with maids. As for your economy one of our "states", where I happen to live, is one notch under the whole country of France, as California is the worlds sixth largest economy. Unfortunate to say, but you will need a terrorist incident in France to wake you up to what's really happening in the world, but your military is so noexistent you will wait for some other country to bail you out like France always has. (BTW Thanks for the help 200 years ago we will add it to France's Greatest Military Victories Vol One -all 2 pages)

"Renault, Peugeot or Citroen are going well, how are going Ford and GMC ? waow nice economy u have in your country..."

Renault increased global sales by 1.7% in 2005 to 2.53 million vehicles for the whole world. Your unemployment rate is 10% where it has been for a decade, I wouln't brag about your ecomomy if I were you.

And finally to put it all into perspective, if France had to absorb 12 million illegal immigrants you wouldn't even have a country.

Go stomp some grapes, make sure the cheese isn't too moldy and let the US stick with what it knows best-running the world. And you can go on selling to countries like Iraq, Libya and Iran to boost that abysmal GMP you have.

Vive la difference!

France needs a terrorist incident?

Jez, you're not worth reading.

I know it was a simple typo i've probably made a few times..but still Scared Heart...THAT's funny..

And I also, WOULD have admired that same willingness to refuse to just 'accept things' too...but the ignorance theyve displayed in these posts lost them all my sympathy. (Aside from Ghost, whom ive seen repeatedly to communicate fairly and thoughtfully with the forum, and is appreciated..alot)

Ive known a couple French guys too, and was amazed that THEY were amazed that we werent angry about everything all the time (little stuff too)...they didnt strike me as happy people either, despite being fairly well off and educated. It was odd..

However..on the immigrant protest issue...NOT bully on that one. A full 90% of the protesters dont even know the law they are protesting here. My wife FORCED them to download that law, and discuss it for three days..in a fucking ART class..and Salsa club, which she sponsors. As a result, I think she has classes containing approximately the ONLY 127 hispanics who are now..no longer protesting the law. LULAC is NOt happy. Nor are the Aztlan advocates...o fucking well.

I asked her to be careful on that one..but I love that she ignored me completely. It almosts chokes me up, that she cares about them so much..even if they are angry right now.. She gave them the chance to dig up the 'discriminatory' parts of the law...and said whe would acknowledge and respect that view if thats what they came to. They did not..by vote. Gives me chills to think about her courage on that one...probably could have lost her job...

While it makes a federal crime out of illegal entry..(um, yeah as it should be) it DOES NOT punish them harshly...it merely imposes a MINISCULE fine, educates them on the proper and still PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE way to become naturalized, and returns them. As it is in ANY civilized country. That TINY ass fine will go to help staff the borders..AS IT SHOULD BE...  Those of you NOT living in border states could not possibly have any sympathy for what their numbers have done to the medical costs here. In One single county in Arizona in ONE MONTH alone...a total of 693 immigrant workers treated for a wide variety of illnesses (long and short term) cost that county 632 MILLION dollars!!!!!... Border states cannot afford that, no matter how benevolent the health care system desires to be. Just try getting sick in Mexico without cash...see what happens. Nothing..thats what. If you cant pay UP FRONT IN CASH, you are sent away in a taxi. PERIOD.

This isnt a cruelty issue, or a racism issue, it's simple economics, and one that NO OTHER nation in the world offers similar free-ride health care..or Education...or Anchor babies (to illegal immigrants, i mean).. For the longest time, we have allowed citizenship to any baby born on American soil..They forget to mention THAT while they are protesting about our racism and cruelty. Try having a baby in Germany, then DEMANDING an education for that Child, and free Healthcare for life..or anywhere else for that matter..It wont happen.

I am completely for legal, responsible naturalization, as I realize that our country is a melting pot..and that many workers are a thousand times more motivated than their american conterparts to make a responsible go at the American Dream and that without them...lettuce would cost 8 dollars a head and costs of cotton clothing would triple. Despite this seeming imbalance of justice, Im fucking proud to know, and have employed Illegals on many occasions...so i can say with experience, that I understand the issues from both sides, and dont want overly harsh repercussions..but on THIS one, the protesting without the facts, and calling for Aztlan (returning California, New Mexico, colorado and Nevada to Mexico) is going to earn them a SUPER harsh Anti-Immigrant vote in the legislatures of all these border states... and that would be a damn shame.

Asking for or demanding a secure Border is my right as an American, and fuck any advocacy protest-monger for simply Race-baiting this issue.

I agree, the call to return California, New Mexico, Nevada and Colorado to Mexico is nuts.  We stole them fair and square. ;-)

Yes, Scared Heart.  You should have seen the angels.  Like Disney's "It's a Small World" ride on crack. 

I think we're actually in agreement here.  I admire that the French youth are willing to take to the streets, I just wish they were doing it with a clear purpose.  Ultimately, it's rather stoopid.

As for the proposed immigration law here.  I do not want forced deportation or to make ilegal immigrants felons.  I just disagree with those two penalities on their face.  We need to figure out how to reduce the influx of ilegals, not punish them or force them to pay money they don't have for their own deportation.  You also need to accept that for a lot of people who support these sorts of laws it is precisely the racial issue that motivates them.  Making illegas felons will only endorse their bigortry and give them fire for their hate.

Put another way, I don't want German immigration laws in America. I don't want a European protectionist system.

I don't want a wall or an armed boarder either.  Those are not solutions.  If people want to come to America they will find away to do so.

Here are some wiser ways to address the problem:

1) Adopt technology-driven border control.
No more militias on the boarder.  No wall.  No Army.  Just smart tech like loitering UAVs that can track inflow coupled with rapid response Boarder Patrol officers.  We can plug the boarder without militarizing it.

2) Reform the visa system and widen our legal labor pool.
Make is easier for people to be Legal Immigrants.

3) Adopt a guest-worker program.
Clearly, Americans want to hire ilegal workers. They're cheap.  Shift those workers into a work program that puts them on track to becoming citizens, if they want, but at least keeps them "within the system" while retaining their economy.  I do have a concern with this... it may depress wages.  It depends on how this worker program is structured. I also don't want to create a "second-class" of workers.

4) Address the root causes of ilegal immigration.
We will never truly solve the issues that drive people to risk death to enter our country, but we can find ways of generating economic growth in their homelands so fewer people will want to leave to begin with.

OK,Point..

Remove the felony status...make illegal entry a misdemeanor...
Felony status is too harsh, and would fuel further hatred.
Keep the fines small.

I am TOTALLY onboard with 1-3 in some form or another..PErfect, safe, common sense solutions..

#2 & 3 are the most effective, and easily adopted with the strongest long term conseqeunce.
I say let the free market set the price for labor, and until they are legal, they must bear the burden of their illegal status...which means, working @ lower wages if Nec...   Harsh, but logical.

BUT to date the militias are acting withinn the laws, and had the government NOT tagged them with the name 'MILITiA" they would probably have full american support...
Only two or three instances of inappropriate actions in over a year and a half, and there were followup punishments for offending militia members. Militia member are instructed NOT to make contact, at the rishk of facing federal interfeence charges. While it may seem radical..it allows these froups in participating in their god given right to defend their country and their countries law....as long as they comply..im FINE with it...and would encourage MORe of it, if Border Patrol Budgets are cut or not increased.

#4 is outside our control. They are trying to escape a dead economy rife with crime and corruption. We cannot fix that..or even dream of doing so..

And whatver comes in place MUST address the porous borders.
I come from a small town one hour north of El Paso, and I am hearing stories from family of immigrants OTHER than mexican migrant workers making entry..on a regular basis..as i am ALSO hearing of ARMED mexican military escorts making forees into Texas and as far north As Southern New Mexico to protect the coyotes, and smuggle frugs. Frugs? drugs even...

MILITARIZE if necessary. As recently as two months ago..a LARGE convoy of drug trucks and Humvees were intercepted only to find that they were facing a smaller convoy of Mexican Military vehicles WITHIN that convoy and WITHIN OUR BORDERS ...armed with mounted 50 cals...itching for a fiery confrontation.  In the end the border patrol and armed national guards backed off to avoid a political bloodbath...complicating Bush's trips...Pfft..and allowed the Mexican Military to retreive two Humvess..likely LOADED with cocain which had become stuck in the riverbed of the mostly empty Rio Grande. (more likely these are armed militia groups donning police garb) but nonetheless...
I say Militarize and defend with Extreme force if threatened and or fired upon...EVEN to the point of crossing the river for apprehension.
Trains must be and should be searched..>Every car if need be. My family has had to suffer the repercussions of discovering not one but TWO train cars full of dead people on our property
Unacceptable.

I think #4 is a goal to strive for.  We've affected that sort of socio-economic change before, it just has to be motivated.  I think it comes down to the US government backing leaders who look out for their own people.

As for the militias, I don't like'em.  Militias went out with the Spanish-American war.  They just have no place within our society.  Armed bands, no matter how well intentioned, shouldn't be on the border.  I feel this way because I wouldn't want my neighbor and his sons to grab their guns and patrol my neighborhood every night looking for criminals.  I don't want that kinda of power in the hands of people who lack regulation and orversight.

I agree they have a right to defend themselves and their country, but hapeless people rushing across the border are not invaders to be chased off.  And armed convoys of Mexican regulars... well, I've not heard that one before.  If true, then that's a job for the National Guard and our regular Army boys. Again, I think we're really advocating the same thing.  If Mexican troops - for any reason - cross the boarder then they need to be delt with, but we don't need to militarize the boarder to deal with them. 

Really, we're talking about two issues now: ilegal immigration and mexican troops working with drug smugglers. 

Interesting thought: Rumsfeld has been on about makign a lighter, more mobile military.  Why not make a lighter, more mobile boarder patrol?  Give them a airlift squdron and a few dozen Border Patrol SWAT or equivilant plus the satelite top-down support and UAV loiterers.  Mexican Army cross the border, cut them up. (I'm actually a hawk with a big, soft liberal heart)

Part of the requirement the Minutemen HAVE to abide by (to address that issue exactly) is that they are NOT permitted to carry guns.

It s a bunch of grandmas and grandpas with radios.
nothing more....and again, they are not allowed (nor have they been making) physical contact of any kind whatsoever.

The Minutemen, by my reading, are a dangerous organization.  While they proclaim that that refuse to take any support from radical group, their own webpage is filled with racial code words.  For example:

"In a show of strength the Army of Illegal Aliens and Open Border Traders set their example at Montebello High School California for the entire world to see! On March 25th 2006 the United Armies of Illegal Aliens marched on Los Angeles being welcomed with opened arms from Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa.  The message went forth that the invaders demand all U.S. citizenship rights and privileges without pledging allegiance to the Red White and Blue, however many did pledge allegiance to the Red, White and Green.  What was the response from Capitol Hill? Many cowardly Senators voted to give-in to the screaming hordes and passed treasonous legislation. Once again politicians surrender to the, biggest thugs with the biggest clubs!"
http://www.minutemanproject.com/

How many examples of subtle race-baiting can we find?  Army of Illegals?  Marched on Los Angeles?  Invaders demanding previleges?  Screaming hordes?  Big thugs? 

Here's a story on the Minutement:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=557
"At Station Two, Minuteman volunteers grilled bratwursts and fantasized about murder.

"It should be legal to kill illegals," said Carl, a 69-year old retired Special Forces veteran who fought in Vietnam and now lives out West. "Just shoot 'em on sight. That's my immigration policy recommendation. You break into my country, you die."

Carl was armed with a revolver chambered to fire shotgun shells. He wore this hand cannon in a holster below a shirt that howled "American bad asses" in red, white and blue. The other vigilantes assigned to Station Two included a pair of self-professed members of the National Alliance, a violent neo-Nazi organization. These men, who gave their names only as Johnny and Michael, were outfitted in full-body camouflage and strapped with semi-automatic pistols."

Maybe we're talking bad apples here.  But dunno.  We've seen this sort of vigilante stuff a decade ago.  As a nation, we are better off without these people taking center stage on the debate over Illegal Imigration.

The issue of militias relates to the same issue of rights to bear arms. The use for militias is to protect the civikians in the event that the government is acting unaccordingly towards it's citizens.

In my oppinion, the government is not doing anyrthing it should not be doing with regards to boarder patrol and therefore militias have no place doing their own boarder patrol. Leave defending the country to the National guard. That is what that specific branch of the military is designed to do. If you wish to be apart of that, then enlist... Don't join some radical group.

As to the fact that all militias are filled with neo nazis and the like... I don't know about that. Six, I think that the source which you quoted seemed a bit biased towards militias in general and was trying to show them all in a negative light based on a few of it's members though I agree that there are probably some smaller militias that might actually be that bad but not the majority of them. As sheix said, most militias are filled with the elderly who are too old to be enlisted on active duty in the military but wish to still be apart of something they believe aids their country.

As for the forign military assisting "frug" runners... I am appauled that more isn't being done to stop such things. If this is in fact true and has been seen by the US government, you would think that would be enough to up funding to the boarder patrols and increase the ammount of troops stationed for that duty. The boarder patrols are already underfunded which is one cause for so many illegal immigrants making it into the country in the first place which caused such strictt laws to be passed. If the funding and manpower was there to begin with, such laws wouldn't be seen as necessary because we would have a better hold on the problem.

I like the ideas 1-3 sugested by Six as well as the mobile boarder patrol(great idea) but agree that 4)solve the others countries defecit problem is impossible. We can't even solve our own defecit and look at all the good were doing in iraq by trying to get involved where we weren't wanted.

Ein

Yeah, i was going to say the same thing on the second link...too..but then..i went to link #1.

So, it appears that there is somewhat of a leadership struggle within the Minutemen.
And the 'good ole boys' are getting kinda kooky. Even the language on the minutemen site was a tad militant...

Well, not that Chanting we hate the Gringo, and Viva Aztlan isnt a bit agressive as well..
both sides need to mind their P's and Q's here.

if it were run like I would want it run..it could be a positive thing.
NO Contact, No Guns, radios ONly.
All with the threat of Felonious interference charges.

BUT, it seems, that that group is getting out of hand ideologically a bit..and despite their initial efforts at being moderate, but firm..theyre starting to just sound nutty...and agressive.

I certainly hope they keep their hands off in this upcoming round of patrols.
As I read them currently, theyre NOT what I would have in mind for civilian groups on the border.
And as I read deeper, I find that what they ARE doing is interfering with the electronic devices in place by the border patrol now. Sound monitors and infrared detectors. Thats not good either..

so i guess another one of those good intentions lost in translation...

i still think its our right to defend our borders, if the funding is being slashed so hard. These people living on Ranches on the border have a RIGHT to feel safe, and not have their land destroyed from being a slack spot in the enforcement line.

But somehow, this current Minuteman effort will just make the situation worse...

Small nit-pick -- I don't think all militias are full of neo-nazis and their sort.  The problem is a lot of these groups are appealing to people who are white supremacists, radical nationalists, or sovreign citizen-ists.  If you don't want brown people in your country and you are militant to begin with, why wouldn't you want o to patrol the border?  Groups like the Minutemen give these sorts of people a forum from which to act out their desires. 

You don't have to dig too deep into a group like the Minutement to find the hatred.  At least, that's been my experience.  So I've become biased.

What She talks about - a true citizen's group that just tries to put more eyes on the border - that's far more appealing to me.  Part of what I think it wrong with Militias is that there is no one in authority governing them.  That's why a lot of people find them appealing.  But when you have no oversight and you have power... people tend to abuse.  This actually brings us towards the core reason I'm a liberal.  I like govnerment.  I like laws.  I like taxes, even, as long as they have a purpose.  I cannot understand why someone would want to go outside of the government on somehting like border patrol and do a job they are already paying for.  Demand that the government do it's job! The government exists to serve the people; if it fails, then we challenge it; if it keeps failing, we change it and put people in change who will do what we believe is right.

From that point of view, militias... they seem anarchist to me.

True... Although their site says they do not condone violence or want the help or affiliation of any hate groups, I can see how militias would seem to draw the wrong types of people in(and thanks for pointing out that 1st link... Missed it and it did change my views a bit on the minutemen). I do not believe militias to be anarchistic though. These militias don't seem bent on destroying the government but more on assisting it (in their own twisted and backwards way). As you said, they lack definate leadership and guidance but I believe that they think they are actually helping our government with patroling the boarders rather than hindering it.

If they were a bit more organized and a bit less militant, I could see how they could possibly be useful in assisting boarder patrols. Take away their guns and give them a radio to contact the propper authorities when they see a boarder jumper.

Ein

http://www.slate.com/?id=2139399&entry/0/nav=tap1

Short article on the Minutemen.  It cuts both ways.

Looks like the law is on its way out, and so is the PM ;D